You are NEVER hooked in.

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Christopher LeFay - 2011/04/29 06:50:57 UTC

Tad,

I appreciate your passion on this issue, and take your point. I think it a small but essential matter to teach students that a "clear" call is predicated on confirming connection. I perform a step through, rotate, examine and test the carabiner gate before picking up the glider as a complement to a hang check; if I subsequently set the glider down on launch, picking it up again is predicated on another such test. Variance in launch conditions doesn't recommend lifting the glider to test as a routine in the moment immediately before launch- I favor routine that doesn't include variation/judgment as a component ("conditions are too strong/unstable for a safe strap-tight glider lift, so this time I'll..."). Still, the method I've used does have a leg-loop sized whole in it; I'm adding leg-loop confirmation to the step-through routine. If conditions allow for it, a strap-tight glider lift will be included.

Check out this distressing thread and associated videos:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=233922

The instructor has his student flying without any sort of hang check. I'm making inquiries to determine who the instructor is.
Long response:

http://www.kitestrings.org/post328.html#p328

Short - and appropriate - response:

Suck my dick, Christopher.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21386
Can't seem to run fast enough to launch
Ronald Nevels (ribeye67) - 2011/04/25 04:34:38 UTC
Antioch, California

I had my first lesson since starting this thread about my frustration with not being able to get into the air. In the time since that lesson I have been going over in my mind the suggestions posted on this thread for how to fix what was wrong.

At today's lesson at Ed Levin I was able to get in the air on every attempt. I wasn't in the air for long since I wasn't all the way up the training hill, but I was in the air.

Thanks for all of your help and support.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc6LW-SpXBo
Ronald Nevels - 2011/04/25 05:01:16 UTC

Here is a video of my last flight of the day. Winds were getting a little gnarly around noon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pFAF-bHKZc
Ronald Nevels - Antioch, California - 90676 - H1 - 2011/06/10 - John Simpson - FL - Exp: 2013/02/28
Christopher LeFay - 2011/04/25 05:28:58 UTC

Congratulations on the progress.

It may seem strange on such a shallow slope (or even flat ground), but do a hang check anyway. It is critical that you associate performing this as a necessary predicate to EVERY flight. You are learning to integrate habits/routines as muscle memory; the process is already underway. Ideally, you should feel a little anxious before the check and increased contentment once secure in the knowledge of being properly hooked in; this association will serve you well in the years to come- most notably on those days that bombard you with pressure and distraction.
Suck my dick, Christopher.
Steve Davy
Posts: 1338
Joined: 2011/07/18 10:37:38 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Steve Davy »

Nice to see that Christopher is back and doing his part to help make Jack Asshole's idiot asylum even more of a joke.

Thanks Christopher.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21474
fatal accident in Israel
Christopher LeFay - 2011/04/28 11:06:27 UTC

First couple years of flying: I had the glider on my shoulders and was just repositioning my feet when stopped by a pilot. He had watched as I skipped the hang check and allowed me get all the way to commitment before sounding the alarm. I was unhooked. I couldn't stop shaking for the better part of an hour. Image
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26211
Video of scary launch and landing
Christopher LeFay - 2012/06/01 04:57:47 UTC

Teaching at Lookout, I never encountered another instructor...
Tad Eareckson - 2012/08/09 16:29:21 UTC

I didn't know he was a Lookout instructor. That WOULD explain a lot of things.
Rob Kells - 2005/12

Mission's Pat Denevan teaches a hook-in check, which is the "lift the glider to feel the leg loops go tight" method I outlined above. He adds that he teaches his students to repeat it if they do not launch within fifteen seconds.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4247
Hook in failure in New Zealand
Jim Rooney - 2006/09/24 21:19:29 UTC

Ok, this thread's a million miles long already (and mostly my fault at that), so I'm not going to feel bad about making it a tad longer.

A couple things to chew on here...

There isn't one sure-fire answer.
If there was, we'd all be doing it already. This thread I think makes this obvious... every single thing people have put forth as "the way", someone else has show how it can fail. Every single one. Argue about the details, but every single one fails.

...

That's all I got for ya.
The other topics have been beat to death here.
If there was an answer, we'd all already be doing it.
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=646
Failure to Hook In
Bob Kuczewski - 2011/07/22 21:30:23 UTC

I'll tell you how. I just talked with Joe, and he said that hang checks do have limited usefulness in protecting against hook-in failures, and that their value in that regard decreases with the time between the hang check and the launch (he's absolutely correct here). He also said that doing a hang check the moment before launch was just as good as a hook-in check at launch, but that a hang check can catch things that a hook-in check might not (like a hang strap routed around a down tube, as just one example). So your claim that hang checks aren't needed by pilots who use the same glider/harness combination is invalidated right there.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13359
Today was a bad day!
Rob McKenzie - 2009/08/26 17:26:12 UTC

hesitate to even post. I have no intention to sway anyone to do what I do but will post only under the premise of FWIW.

I believe that if I fly long enough, numbers lead to an eventual failure to hook in. I'm human.

I do a hang check before nearly every flight. I do it without needing a nose or keel assist as I balance my weight over the basetube. I'm more likely to do a hang check if I don't need to trouble others for help. I probably miss the hang check about 1 in 1000 flights. I feel leg loops and look for height above basetube and twisting in lines during the hang check.

I have twice in the last 10,000 or so flights actually laid on the ground unhooked while doing my self hang check. So numbers indicate about 1 in 5000 chance of forgetting to hook in.

Multiply rate of failure to hook in by failure to hang check and I have perhaps a 1 in 5 million chance of launching unhooked. With 500 flights a year I have therefore about 1 failed hookin launch every 50,000 years. But it could be my next launch attempt.

I like variety. Sometimes AUSSIE and sometimes not. It helps to bring the thought process alive. Routine leads to boredom which leads to reactive thinking which IMO is a poor facsimile of true thinking.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26996
Critique my radial ramp launch
Ryan Voight - 2012/08/28 06:14:06 UTC

What USHPA reg are you referencing specifically?

And no, in a thread titled "Critique my radial ramp launch" that video is also pretty much entirely off topic.

You want to discuss/debate/dictate people's pre-launch habits, great, just don't hijack someone else's thread about radial ramp technique.

Since this video starts with him on launch, we don't know if he did a hook-in check already, a hang check, a preflight, took a pee before putting his harness on, or drove a hybrid car to launch... Why are you critiquing what you don't know, didn't see, didn't ask about, and isn't what he asked for critique on??? WTF?
http://www.rmhpa.org/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4258
HG accident in Vancouver
Tom Galvin - 2012/10/31 22:17:21 UTC

I don't teach lift and tug, as it gives a false sense of security.
You can bet the fuckin' farm that ANY instructor will either give us no help whatsoever on the hook-in check message or work to sabotage it.

Steve Parson and Jon Orders, both of whom have manslaughter convictions for dropping unhooked chick thrill riders... not a word.

Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt who's signed the tickets for two majors - a fatal solo and two and a half months in the hospital for the keenly intellectual intended Pilot In Command of a tandem...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1166
Thoughts on responsibility...
Scott Wilkinson - 2005/10/05 14:10:56 UTC

We visited Steve Wendt yesterday, who was visibly choked up over Bill's death. For Steve, it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.
Eric Hinrichs, who's the poster boy for doing lift and tug himself, doesn't teach it to his students, doesn't lift a finger to help us, has ONE post (anti-Aussie) on ONE unhooked launch thread concerning a...

09-0625
Image

...zilch consequences incident.

Doug Rice...

Image

...who signed my Two on 1980/04/07 and under whom I worked as an instructor at Kitty Hawk that fall - which is when I got tuned into lift and tug - was at Saurtown on 1989/07/30 when his friend Gilbert Aldrich...

Image

...got 97 percent killed. Never fuckin' HEARD of a hook-in check.

We haven't been teaching it so, obviously, it's of no value at best and best avoided anyway because it gives you a false sense of security and is certain death on the eighty percent of the launches in which the turbulent jet stream has dipped down to six inches over your wing when you're holding it safely down on your shoulders.

And their students aren't likely to speak out saying anything contrary to what they've been taught by their wonderful award winning instructors.

Gawd I'd love it if Tom Galvin went off one of those launches his buddy Craig Pirazzi...

Image

...was always so stoked about minus a false sense of security. He could do for hook-in checks what Zack Marzec did for Tad-O-Links. C'mon Tom. Just sixteen potential flying days left in the calendar year.
---
2015/12/17 22:10:00 UTC

Pat Denevan and Rob McKenzie amended.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2019
Hook-In Alarm
Harry Martin - 2015/12/23 03:33:01 UTC

I just finished reading Tad Eareckson's review of my hook-in alarm on his forum.
Here:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post8270.html#p8270

He spends a great deal of time ripping my article (from 1992) to pieces.
The article maybe. But not the author; device; motivation, thought, engineering that went into the device.
That's okay. Nothing wrong with that. I'm just puzzled why it took so long.
1. So much in hang gliding to rip apart, so little time.

2. I ripped gadgets apart in the article:
http://www.energykitesystems.net/Lift/hgh/TadEareckson/FTHI.pdf
I submitted for the magazine to Nick Greece on 2009/09/15. Joe Gregor should be getting back to me shortly to let me know whether or not it meets with his approval.

3. It wasn't until almost the end of my flying career, after Kunio and nearly three years after my last foot launch, that I realized that what I'd been doing since almost the beginning (fall of 1980) - fear plus lift and tug - was THE *UNIVERSAL* solution.
At the time I wrote that article, I was exploring electronic ways to reduce the possibility of FTHI, as were other pilots. He quite rightly stresses again and again the process of lifting the glider and feeling the leg loops, what I erroneously called the hang straps.
Yeah, maybe I should've picked up on that. Maybe the editor should have too.
Hang straps, leg loops, it's all part of the harness suspension.
Not really. The hang STRAP (singular) is a glider component and the second strap is moronic dangerous junk.
Something I have always done without thinking much about.
1. Even as you're lifting your wing into the turbulent jet stream?
2. I always tend to be thinking about what could happen if I DON'T lift the glider to feel the leg loops.
If I couldn't feel the leg loops, I didn't launch.
Should've said that in the article. Generally speaking an individual who comes up with or adopts a new sure-fire strategy to prevent unhooked launches will not permit mention of the hook-in check.
Quite right and the correct practice that has never failed me. Flying a Fledge 2 teaches you to do that because for me, it's damn near impossible to launch a Fledge as it is VERY tail heavy.
That's why they invented launch dollies and platforms.
If you can't feel the leg loops tugging at your legs, crotch, and butt, the glider won't launch because as you start your run, the tail will drop and you will just be dragging a stalled dead glider behind you. You stop dead in your tracks.
Or in the case of a cliff launch you just stop dead way below the ramp.
I always did anyway. Feeling the leg loops, the Fledge is easier to balance as you start your run. Plain and simple.
And you never died as a consequence of your wing being engulfed in the turbulent jet stream. Go figure.
I never installed the hook-in alarm on my Fledge because I knew it wouldn't make any difference, but on my WW, I figured it might. Also, on the Fledge, you don't hook into a hang strap. There is none, only a bracket and a bolt. It never had a backup strap either.
No glider should.
The practice of lifting my glider and feeling the leg loops has always worked for me, even while flying other gliders. Enough said there.
I wish. Doug Hildreth started saying it 35 years ago and still no instructors teach it and hardly anyone does it.
Had I read FTHI.pdf by Tad Eareckson, I probably would have never built the device. It was a curiosity to me back then. In all the years I've had it and used it, it actually prevented only one FTHI. In this case, I lifted the glider and the alarm started wailing. I hadn't fully lifted the glider yet to test the leg loops, but I did pause before launching because of the alarm. It could have been that one time I didn't test my straps.
1. I've ALWAYS been afraid of launching unhooked and NEVER COME ANYWHERE *CLOSE* to forgetting/omitting the hook-in check.

2. It wouldn't have been. If you'd always tested them before and continued to after you wouldn't have ONCE skipped. And if you had it wouldn't have lined up with the one time you happened not to be hooked in. But this does illustrate the main problem involved with gadgets. They make you feel safer - a bit like the Aussie Method. No alarm / I'm in my harness - therefore I must be safely connected to the glider under which I'm standing.
Since the sensor was installed in the backup strap, I set the glider down and hooked into the backup and missed the main.
Which you wouldn't have done if there hadn't been a backup. Told ya they just make the glider more dangerous.
I lifted the glider, felt the leg loops, then performed a successful launch. The glider was a WW Sport 150, much easier to launch than a Fledge. Easier to pickup and launch even when not hooked in.

Also, at the time, it was common to have backup straps and I can't remember why...
Mike Meier - 2005/08/~18

Years ago we didn't even put backup hang loops on our gliders (there's no other component on your glider that is backed up, and there are plenty of other components that are more likely to fail, and where the failure would be just as serious), but for some reason the whole backup hang loop thing is a big psychological need for most pilots.
Catering to hang glider "pilot" stupidity.
...other than maybe there was hang strap failures...
No.
...leading up to folks adding multiple straps and extra carabiners.
How many unhooked launch fatalities have we had that have led up to folk adding hook-in checks to their launch sequences?
I remember when there were carabiner failures.
Abused aluminum carabiner failures.
Anyway, I'm posting this because others have tried to design similar devices and they might like to know a bit more about its history and whether it was a failure or a success. After reading Tad's essay, I'm more inclined to remove the device and the extra hang strap. The device continues to work, but it does add complexity to the glider.
Which is only a bad thing if the complexity serves no purpose or introduces weight, drag, problems.

That's the right call. I don't feel good about you pulling your gadget because I DO appreciate and admire people working on and developing solutions to problems and yours is well thought out and nicely engineered, but...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26557
Failure to hook in 6/29/12
Alan Deikman - 2012/07/17 17:57:38 UTC

I designed a mechanism to prevent FTHI which I think would be pretty effective, probably with the same failure rate as the glider itself. I will never implement it, and if I applied for a patent it would be for the express purpose of stopping anyone else from implementing it.

If you don't understand why then I don't think you understand the central issue on this topic.
A *PILOT* MUST be afraid of launching unhooked at the moment of commitment and MUST execute the physical check as the beginning of his launch sequence - EVERY TIME. And a gadget - 'specially a well thought out and engineered one - will only serve to reduce the fear and as an excuse to skip the physical check.

OK, Rick...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=802
AL's Second flight at Packsaddle how it went
Rick Masters - 2011/10/19 22:47:17 UTC

Al, there's a lot of noise on this thread but if I can just cut through it, I'd like to provide my observations to your excellently detailed account.

A lot of focus is put on hooking in. Too many pilots have died for no good reason. It was never a problem for me. Before lifting the glider, I would lay down and check my distance from the control bar. I always did this. It was part of my unalterable routine. It just took a moment and then I would shoulder the glider. I would stand and allow the wind to lift the wing. I would stand and fly the wing with gentle tension on my hang strap. Then I would identify the neutral lift attitude where the wing weighed nothing - and hold it.

At that moment, I would banish all concern about launching unhooked. I had taken care of it. It was done. It was out of my mind.

Now I would look downslope. I would verify that the bushes or trees below were waving slightly. If they were, I knew that I would encounter lift during and at the end of my run.

Now I would look to one side to see how wide the lift band was AND to see if there was approaching traffic. Then I would look to the other side. If bushes and trees or flags were moving about the same far to either side, I could be assured that I was in uniform ridgelift or in the center of a large thermal updraft. In the event of a large thermal updraft, there is no time to delay because it will not last and you must launch into the first half as it approaches launch.

Now you look to your wireman. His fingers should be "O's" around your nose wires and not touching them. Now you have met all conditions. Timing is of the essence. You yell "Clear!", the wire man dives to the side and you run, holding a neutral angle of attack.
Start running your idiot fucking mouth again.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2237
Flatland Hang Gliding without towing or motoring
Harry Martin - 2016/01/04 16:50:27 UTC

Good idea for practicing lifting the glider and feeling the leg loops to prevent FTHI.
And if you got a false sense of security it wouldn't matter.
Go ahead, Bob. Warn everybody about the danger of the turbulent jet stream.
Thanks Harry, I've been advocating just that for years.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Jump to next post:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9405.html#p9405

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9G8ERElpjM
1 trip up Ed Levin, 5 flights down
Eric Hinrichs - 2013/01/06

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9G8ERElpjM
Needed to pull extra stills off of this one - last month when we were helping Ryan permantently destroy his credibility - to illustrate how nothing much is changing with respect to glider control as the wing transitions from supporting zero to full airborne pilot weight.

http://www.kitestrings.org/post9314.html#p9314

Decided to do the job right and sample all five launches (including hook-in checks), flights, landings. Nice lighting, colors, flying tour of Ed Levin. SE air, Falcon 3 225, CG 1000 harness.

01-00108
- 01 - chronological order
- -0 - minutes
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- 08 - frame (30 fps)

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Steve Davy
Posts: 1338
Joined: 2011/07/18 10:37:38 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Steve Davy »

Five false senses of security on one trip down the mountain. I am surprised that he lived to tell about it.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/collin-county/warrant-dad-tried-to-save-baby-left-in-hot-car-by-putting-her-in-freezer/252382652
Warrant: Dad tried to save baby left in hot car by putting her in fridge | WFAA.com
Jordan Armstrong, Lauren Zakalik, David Goins, WFAA - 2016/06/23 00:51 UTC

COLLIN COUNTY -- An arrest warrant released Wednesday reveals more information about a father arrested after allegedly leaving his 6-month-old daughter in a hot car, causing her death.

Image

According to the warrant issued for Michael Thedford, the Melissa father told investigators that he took his 5-year-old and 3-year-old children to daycare at about 9 a.m. Tuesday. He stated the youngest child, named Fern according to her grandfather, wasn't going to daycare that day because she had a virus and was running a fever.

When he went home, Thedford says he forgot the baby was in the car and went inside the house to take a nap.

The warrant states that when he woke up around 1 p.m., roughly four hours later, he said he discovered the baby was in the car and ran outside. He found her unresponsive and took her into the house.

Thedford told police he placed his daughter in the refrigerator "for an undetermined length of time prior to calling 911."

The warrant goes on to say Thedford told officers he called his wife and 911 while trying to perform CPR on the child. When deputies arrived, they found the baby dead in the kitchen.

While being interviewed by the Collin County Sheriff's Office, Thedford told deputies he's an unemployed high school teacher. He said his wife of 12 years is a veterinarian in Plano, and she was at work during the incident.

Stan Thedford calls his son Michael a fantastic, doting dad. He says he can't speak to how his son forgot Fern in the car.

"Every year at this time it happens to people from all walks of life," he said of the tragedy. "It's something we should all be more aware of."

He says this was a terrible accident, something echoed by another close family friend News 8 spoke to.

Thedford taught introduction to physics and chemistry at Celina High School last year, according to district officials.

"Michael is rocket-science smart," assistant superintendent Bill Hemby told News 8. "He did a great job for us while he was here. We all had an understanding of how much he loved his children. We're all in mourning, just like he is."

Thedford was arrested Tuesday on a charge of manslaughter. He was released after posting a $20,000 bond.

Temperatures in Collin County reached 91 degrees by noon the day the child died.

Child Protective Services is investigating. The two older children are not currently in CPS custody.

"We appreciate everyone’s thoughts and concerns," Stan Thedford said. "We just need time for our grieving, and to help family get through it."
http://www.wfaa.com/news/health/8-tips-to-prevent-hot-car-deaths/252489508
8 tips to prevent hot car deaths | WFAA.com
WFAA Staff, WFAA - 2016/06/22 17:58 UTC

A Collin County father has been charged with manslaughter after deputies say he left his 6-month-old daughter in a hot car, causing her death. The father told authorities he forgot the baby, since he normally takes her to daycare but she was sick that day.

"It's difficult to think that as parents, we could 'forget' our children, but it happens each year with no exception to socioeconomic or education level," Cook Children's said on its website.

"Often times, a change in routine, a distraction along the way, or the event a child falls quietly asleep, unseen, in the back seat, allows for a parent/caregiver to 'forget' and leave a child in the car."


Cook Children's Medical Center has released these tips to help prevent hot car deaths:

1. If you see an unattended child in a car, call 911. Sometimes people say they don't want to get involved, but it doesn't take long for a child to die in a car with rising temperatures.

2. Don't ever leave a child alone in a car, even for a minute. Even if you roll the windows down slightly, that doesn't affect rising temperatures.
Irrelevant.
3. Leave a reminder for yourself (leave a cell phone or purse) in the back seat, which will force you to look and see that a child is there.
Unless the distraction/disruption that causes you to forget the kid is also the distraction/disruption that causes you to forget cell phone or purse.
4. You can also set a reminder on your computer or cell phone to remind you to drop off your child every day.
See above.
5. Set a plan with your daycare to call you within a few minutes of being late or if you haven't called to say your child will be absent.
Has that ever actually prevented an incident.
6. Teach your kids to not play inside a vehicle.
Right. The kids are smart and physically capable enough to be able to get into and play inside a vehicle and be taught not to but not smart and physically capable enough to be able to figure out how to get out of one before roasting to death.
7. Lock all doors of your car, even when you're home.
That way if your kid's roasting to death in your car he'll be safe from child molesters.
8. Always check the car and trunk if any child goes missing.
Big help.

And make sure not to train yourself to assume that there's a kid in the car and look to make sure there isn't every time you're about to shut the door.
User avatar
TheFjordflier
Posts: 74
Joined: 2015/03/07 17:11:59 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by TheFjordflier »

You probably saw my flight from Kjerag.
More views in a short time than any other of my videos.
And a much broader audience.
With the side wire stomp test, plus the final hook-in check.

Hopefully people will notice these small, but crucial details to a safe flight.

An American BASE jumper got killed less than two hours after my launch.
Just because he didn't check his gear properly before jumping the "waterfall exit".
Main chute never deployed, just the pilot chute.
The bent pin release malfunctioned due to human error.
Easily prevented.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbuzRkKAz2Q

Edit 23.02.2020 new Youtube link.

KJERAG (HG)
TheFjordflier - 2016/06/26 19:27 UTC
Heliboogie event 2016, Kjerag Norway.
240 base jumpers.
1 hang glider.
dead
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Pretty spectacular, to say the least. I was in similar glacier carved country shortly before your flight but nothing close to rivaling a drop-off like that. We were hoping to score Grizzly in and near Glacier National Park but had to settle for Bighorns and Mountain Goats.

Still have no documentation of a single mainstream/certified instructor anywhere at any time teaching/requiring hook-in checks as per the intent of u$hPa's 1981/05 initiated SOP and as advocated by Doug Hildreth over his fourteen years as Accident Review Committee Chairman. No shortage of incidents of such individuals undermining and sabotaging our efforts, however.
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