http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=36761
We aren't the only ones . . .
Red Howard - 2020/05/04 17:00:21 UTC
Watched a guy linking carabiners together, to make a too-short hang loop work for his too-short harness mains. They were non-locking oval carabiners, about the worst possible choice for the job. These days, I'm opposed to linking any carabiners, period; they are made for webbing loads, not point loading. Anyway, I tried explaining a bad choice to the guy, and he just was not listening to advice, not even from a friend.
Well, you can hold a carabiner at one fist, with just one finger around the carabiner. You can click them together, as you might expect, but with a slight twist, not touching either gate, you can click them apart just as easily. All the while he was explaining about freedoms and choices to me, I just kept quietly clicking the two carabiners apart, and together again, steadily. I listened nicely to everything he said, until he blew up and almost shouted at me "Will you STOP doing that?!!" We both laughed, but he got his gear straight, after that. Nobody knows if I "saved" him from a parachute ride, or worse, but I do believe that some "accidents" and their bad outcomes are preventable.
They were non-locking oval carabiners, about the worst possible choice for the job.
It's not a job. It's shitrigging. If you need to effect a temporary extension it should be done with line between the harness's normal carabiner installation point and the carabiner. But of course then you'd hafta have a hang glider pilot capable of tying an appropriate knot so that's a real iffy proposition. So probably just throw a spare backup loop...
098-23104-25420
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49979995768_581997b8ac_o.png
...in the bag for such occasions.
These days, I'm opposed to linking any carabiners, period; they are made for webbing loads, not point loading.
But you were OK with it in those days. I was NEVER OK with it and never did it.
Anyway, I tried explaining a bad choice to the guy, and he just was not listening to advice, not even from a friend.
With you being the friend that could serve him well at least half the time.
Well, you can hold a carabiner at one fist, with just one finger around the carabiner. You can click them together, as you might expect, but with a slight twist, not touching either gate, you can click them apart just as easily.
Great, Red. Now get this trick to work in a glider scenario. Describe how it could possibly happen. Fer starters we need negative Gs on the glider. Just how often does that happen?
We both laughed, but he got his gear straight, after that.
No he didn't. He was still flying with a backup loop. And when the sport went to locking carabiners so did he.
Nobody knows if I "saved" him from a parachute ride, or worse...
You didn't. There's never been a scenario in which this could've been an issue. And no one can even invent one. And I note you haven't - hence the "nobody knows" bullshit.
...but I do believe that some "accidents" and their bad outcomes are preventable.
Wow. That sure was profound. Any thoughts on 2013/02/02 Zack Marzec? That one remains an unfathomable mystery...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Swift - 2013/02/27 14:22:49 UTC
Zack wasn't "sitting on the couch" when a cheap piece of string made the decision to dump him at the worst possible time.
Who was betting his life on that decision?
I say, better him than you.
William Olive - 2013/02/27 20:55:06 UTC
Like the rest of us, you have no idea what really happened on that tow.
We probably never will know.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC
Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.
Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.
...to this very day. And don't even dream of...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC
Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation.
...speculating on any of the issues. (Not that there's really ever been...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
...any NEED to.)
Ian Riedel - 2020/05/05 04:07:58 UTC
Red, always appreciate your .02! "linking non locking carabiners" put a chill down my spine. No climber who expects to live long will do such a thing. Interesting read, knowledge is power... and preservation. One thing I attribute to my health and well being is a little read publication, Accidents in North American Mountaineering. Sometimes a little morbid, never fun, but always educational. It is a compendium of accidents and an extremely detailed dissection of what went wrong. The airline and space industry examine failures to the most minute detail. It almost ALWAYS comes down to a decision somewhere along the way. Sometimes it may be a huge decision, sometimes seemingly insignificant choices snowball into the worst events of your life. One article in ANM that lead to a fatality was distilled to the climbers rushing in deteriorating conditions because one climber had decided to NOT bring a windbreaker / jacket. It was not an act of God accident but a mistake that likely would not have taken place in a less hurried situation. A windbreaker. He even considered it but tossed it back in his car before the walk in. Understanding how quickly good goes wrong and knowing all the ways it can go wrong (education!) is important. I am attracted to every HG "Things go wrong" video or story, it is one more piece of the never ending puzzle to survival floating around in the sky.
Rules are only as good as the person who may follow the rules... or not. There is a reason we are all not playing team sports in tape measure defined playing fields... Too many rules, or to put it differently lack of freedom in the game. Freedom from the ground, others, gravity, whatever. For a fringe extreme sport I think we do a pretty good job of self regulating. Not perfect but for those willing to play along for the betterment of the sport it seems to be working. I value the words of anyone who has ever flown, they may have knowledge or wisdom I do not possess that saves my life. Staying safe is a group effort but only I can choose to participate in this effort... or not.
Cheers and stay safe everyone
Red, always appreciate your .02!
Red doesn’t have any two centses. He's full o' shit and won't engage when he's called on any of it.
"linking non locking carabiners" put a chill down my spine.
Yeah, you should always be most scared of the shit that's never actually happened in this sport. Good thing Red was there to save the life of the single individual to ever even think of using this configuration.
No climber who expects to live long will do such a thing.
There's no shitrigged equipment in climbing. Climbing gear is critical all the time it's being employed. The crap that hang gliding passes off as towing equipment is only critical in critical situations. High volume operations can go tens of thousands of flights before a critical situation lines up with a relevant shitrigged equipment element. And then you can ALWAYS attribute it to pilot error. Jeff Bohl shouldn't have made that three quarter second easy reach to his dangling camera at the beginning of that tow. Wasn't FOCUSED enough. And the only time everything was being done right by two ace professional pilots it's a total mystery, we'll never be able to understand what really happened.
Note that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING changed in the wake of Jeff Bohl - not at any detectable level anyway. There wasn't even an advisory to keep both hands on the control bar during the most critical stage of launch 'cause long established Industry policy is that there' can be no negative consequence to take a hand off the control bar at any stage of launch. It's just that we muppets...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1143
Death at Tocumwal
Davis Straub - 2006/01/24 12:27:32 UTC
Bill Moyes argues that you should not have to move your hand from the base bar to release. That is because your natural inclination is to continue to hold onto the base bar in tough conditions and to try to fly the glider when you should be releasing.
...have this unfortunate and irrational natural inclination to continue to hold onto the base bar in tough conditions and to try to fly the glider when we should be releasing. And Bill Moyes obviously lost his argument 'cause there was never a hang glider pilot anywhere on the planet who agreed with him.
One thing I attribute to my health and well being is a little read publication, Accidents in North American Mountaineering.
Unfortunate title. There's no such thing as an accident in hang gliding - and I'm sure the same holds true for climbing.
Sometimes a little morbid, never fun, but always educational.
Too bad. None of this shit SHOULD BE educational. It should all already be elements of our competency.
It is a compendium of accidents and an extremely detailed dissection of what went wrong. The airline and space industry examine failures to the most minute detail.
Funny you need to cite a mountaineering resource. Couldn't find anything of any actual substance in hang gliding? (Not since Doug Hildreth was allotted some magazine space anyway. He got replaced by a non pilot corporate attorney who immediately shreds all of the information and analysis that Doug used to take great pains to publish.)
It almost ALWAYS comes down to a decision somewhere along the way.
Like:
- decertifying your aircraft with a pro toad bridle and/or easily reachable release, rotating upright to the control tubes to execute a perfectly timed spot landing flare?
- using an Infallible Weak Link as the focal point of your safe towing system?
One article in ANM that lead to a fatality was distilled to the climbers rushing in deteriorating conditions because one climber had decided to NOT bring a windbreaker / jacket. It was not an act of God accident but a mistake that likely would not have taken place in a less hurried situation.
Did they consider making "FOCUSED CLIMBER" wristbands available to participants?
I am attracted to every HG "Things go wrong" video or story...
- Where do you find them? On u$hPa's website or magazine? If not that tell me how the sport doesn't have a real serious cancer at its core.
- No you're not. You're interested in putting your best foot forward and showcasing the fun adventurous atmosphere we experience every day in the landing zone after a great flight. It's in the Jack Show SOPs.
- Haven't noticed you registering on or referencing Kite Strings. Oh yeah. Jack doesn't PERMIT you to reference Kite Strings and registering on it could make you a related person - which would be real problematic.
- When they teach kids to drive they emphasize the "things go wrong" incidents and consequences. And 0.000 percent of them have second thoughts about pursuing a license. In hang gliding the only danger is an imperfectly timed spot landing flare and the only recognized consequences are permanent paralysis from the neck down and instant death. You OK with that approach? And how's that been working for retaining people in the sport?
- Anybody who has any fuckin' business learning to fly is. And what's it say about the owner of the worlds largest local coffee shop in which you're hanging out when he puts the entire "Incident Reports" forum off limits to the members of the public to whom he's promoting the sport not to mention search engines? 238 topics, 5883 posts. It would be fun to go through them and find out if Jack has ever contributed anything more substantive than:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14410
Wallaby fatality
Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/16 17:01:31 UTC
Nooooooooooooo!
You're saying that studying this material is increasing your chances of survival. Isn't that the same as saying that prohibiting access to this material decreases the target population's chances of survival?
...it is one more piece of the never ending puzzle to survival floating around in the sky.
Bull fucking shit. Name somebody who's so much as skinned a knee as a consequence of anything that wasn't fully understood at Kitty Hawk on 1903/12/17. We've known everything we've needed to for decades and the vast majority of it is common sense. And if you disagree cite one example to serve as an exception.
Rules are only as good as the person who may follow the rules... or not.
How 'bout the rules themselves? Tell me how one makes the slightest sense out of:
http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
http://airtribune.com/2019-big-spring-nationals/info/details__info
http://airtribune-production.s3.amazonaws.com/media/contest/files/2019/07/GTxd6mT4AIn8.pdf
2019 Big Spring Nationals - 2019/07
Weaklinks of 140 and 200 (280 and 400 towline) pounds will be available and provided by the organizers. Weaklinks provided by the organizers must be used by the competitors.
There is a reason we are all not playing team sports in tape measure defined playing fields...
- Have neither the brains nor balls to?
- How the hell do you know what we are all not doing when we're not flying? Soccer, basketball, ice hockey overlapped my flying career.
Too many rules, or to put it differently lack of freedom in the game.
Bullshit. People are CHOOSING to make and play by rules in order to do and enjoy what they want to. And name some rules that kids organizing themselves are complaining about and choosing to ignore.
Freedom from the ground, others, gravity, whatever.
We DON'T have freedom from the ground, others, gravity, whatever.
- We need the ground for starting and stopping our flights, generating ridge and thermal lift.
- We do better with others - human and non - showing us where to find lift. And if you think we have freedom from others while we're flying then talk to Ken Muscio. A right-of-way rule was violated, two gliders went down to the GROUND, one of them died, we never heard from or of Stan Albright again.
- Without gravity we don't fly. And see if you can find anybody in this sport who thinks it's fun going weightless.
- Whatever was what killed Zack Marzec. Beyond that fact anything else would be pure speculation.
We have extremely little freedom when we're doing anything worth doing in a hang glider. Whether it's dune flying, ridge running, thermalling, aerobatics we're working inside of very tight margins to come away healthy and with feelings of accomplishment.
I've never once landed a glider and thought, "Wow! What a great feeling of freedom I just had!" Hopefully I'm physically shot 'cause I've been pushing and pushed to my limits and have flown competently enough to have maxed out the potential. Alternately I may be disappointed in myself for having poorly chosen or executed and missed out on some potential.
And now that I think about it...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC
Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.
The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
I get it.
It can be a pisser.
But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.
Does that sound to you like freedom from the ground, others, gravity, whatever? How I wish we'd had the freedom to deal with that snotty little shit in an extremely appropriate manner. And that was THE public face of Highland Aerosports at an absolute minimum. And those motherfuckers never whispered a single syllable's worth of condemnation. And they'd all started out as hang glider people.
For a fringe extreme sport...
Go fuck yourself. Hang gliding isn't any more of a fringe extreme sport than bicycling. They can both be taken to extremes - and are by one out of a thousand participants. Ryan resembles that remark. You go fringe extreme you have 2011/01/15 - Doug Prather and 2011/05/20 - Eric Meis. That's what happens at the fringe (twice within the space of four months with these two). If it didn't happen it wouldn't be the fringe.
I got to be a very competent and accomplished pilot over a career that spanned 28 years. But I didn't fly as an extreme pilot and I majorly resent hang gliding being presented as an extreme sport - let alone fringe.
I think we do a pretty good job of self regulating.
Pull your head out of your ass for a minute or two and see if that changes your perspective.
Not perfect but for those willing to play along for the betterment of the sport it seems to be working.
Yeah, that's what a bunch of FREEDOM loving extreme sport fringers are ALWAYS willing to do. PLAY ALONG for the betterment of the sport.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC
My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.
This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.
See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.
But then there's a crowd that "knows better". To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".
(Holy god, the names I've been called.)
I have little time for these people.
It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments. So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.
A fun saying that I picked up... Some people listen with the intent of understanding. Others with the intent of responding.
I like that.
For fun... if you're not seeing what I mean... try having a conversation here about wheels.
With the few people actually working on things. (If only we could find out who these few people are, what things they're actually working on, how much longer it will take to see one of their things. Over seven years at a minimum so far - and way too late for Rooney.)
I value the words of anyone who has ever flown...
Me too. But very rarely for the same reason you do.
...they may have knowledge or wisdom I do not possess that saves my life.
Like what?
- The sport's been around for about five decades, there've been untold thousands of life altering or ending crashes, when was the last time somebody came up with a groundbreaking new technique?
- Name something legitimate that you've picked up this way that shouldn't have been covered by u$hPa SOPs and relayed to you by an instructor and/or ratings official?
- Are you citing this bullshit from Red as an example? It's a total fake issue. Red's one of the major assholes who preaches against the Wills Wing preflight procedure which would totally prevented Rafi Lavin from getting so much as scratched at your main home site on 2015/08/23. Continued preaching against it through the postmortem.
Staying safe is a group effort but only I can choose to participate in this effort... or not.
Group intelligence... IQ of the stupidest individual in the group divided by the number of individuals in the group. And in hang gliding good freakin' luck finding individuals with IQ's in the higher double digits or better. And on the Jack and Davis Shows...
In AT I can and did end up behind a Jim Keen-Intellect...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
...Rooney. So if I hook up behind him my IQ is instantly maxed out at 12.5. You need a minimum of 50.0 and good freakin' luck with the tug driver pool.
Cheers and stay safe everyone
Virtually no one's safe.
Frank Colver - 2020/05/06 19:01:06 UTC
Also, always use locking carabiners!
Let's once and for all put an end to all the needless carnage we reap through the insane use of nonlocking carabiners. Let's get some federal legislation on the books to make possession of a nonlocking carabiner a Level 1 Felony - and the death penalty for anyone who manufactures or sells one.
I've posted here before about the HG pilot who carried an extra nonlocking biner on his belt loop or harness (I don't remember which). It killed him when in a hard turn it clicked around a side wire.
And whenever we see an HG pilot carrying an extra locking biner on his belt loop or harness let's make extra sure that it's properly and fully locked!
Locking biners are also stronger (when locked).
Using a nonlocking biner is just slightly less problematic than hooking into a velcro secured loop. Total insanity.
Frank
BTW - When tying up my raft for the night, on a river, I always lock the biner connecting the bow line to the boat. It's just good sense to lock biners!
Yeah.
23-05054
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48220828662_bbe40a3c90_o.png
There are absolutely no downsides to using locking carabiners. The more complex you make something the less chance there is for something to go wrong. Everybody in hang gliding understands that simple concept about complexity.
Hey Frank...
- Which is stronger? A locking carabiner hung up by its locking mechanism in minor axis mode or the nonlocking flavor of the same carabiner in major axis mode?
- Has there ever been an incident:
-- of a nonlocking hang gliding carabiner hanging up minor axis?
-- in which a glider has gone down in water in which the victim was thankful he'd been flying with a locked locking carabiner?
- Ever give any thought about which flavor of carabiner has the potential to damage the glider and/or harness suspension webbing? Just kidding.
If you go to the article cited in kicking off this idiot Jack Show discussion...
http://www.soundingsonline.com/voices/the-wrong-argument
The Wrong Argument: Why Experience Doesn't Matter - Soundings Online
Mario Vittone - 2018/04/05
The pilot responsible for the greatest airline disaster in history, Jacob van Zanten, had been a pilot for 21 years when he misjudged the risk of taking off into fog. He killed 538 people.
That's pure undiluted bullshit. It was a perfect storm event with a zillion issues needing to line up just right but THE issue which precipitated this incident was that the captain - knowingly - committed to takeoff minus clearance from the tower. And nobody either at the article or on The Jack Show has called the author on it. If you're gonna write an article on the importance of getting everything right in potentially lethal situations that sure is a crappy way to start out.
And now that I think about it a little more... It's a totally assinine statement. The pilot isn't and can't be responsible for judging any risk of takeoff - that doesn't have anything to do with the airworthiness of his plane and crew anyway. That's entirely the responsibility and call of the tower. And there wasn't any risk of taking off into fog. There was a huge risk of taking off into another 747 still taxiing on the runway.