Three seconds after tow commenced the keyhole tang released.
The nosewires rested on the V bridle towline.
I did not recognize that the nosewires were loose but did know something was wrong because some line was bobbing in front of me.
One second after the keyhole tang released the glider pitched up and left the cart.
The movie shows me moving forward to instinctively correct the pitch.
Approximately one second after pitch up the weak link broke and the glider stalled, rolling slightly right. Height is unknown as the FlyTec 6015 failed to record this flight, despite being turned on.
Recognizing the stall and early release I instinctively pulled in to regain speed and as the ground came up pushed out to effect a glide.
Impact was two seconds later.
2013/10/28 05:07:59 UTC - Sink This! -- Paul Hurless
2013/10/28 12:03:45 UTC - Sink This! -- Christopher Albers
One of the stated goals of this site is to promote HG. MOST views on this site are NOT from members but from visitors, they have no ignore button.
Having Tad run around every day giving the impression that there is a massive weekly slaughter of pilots at tow parks due to their horribly dangerous devices surely doesnt promote HG. Especially when the safety records are quite excellent.
Like Jim said, theyve gone a decade with no fatalities at their tow park. Pretty damn good I say.
Yet listening to Tad, you would think guys were dying all over the place
He's been nothing but misleading and negative and ignored multiple warnings from me. So He's GONE
One of the stated goals of this site is to promote hang gliding. MOST views on this site are NOT from members but from visitors and they have no ignore buttons - so the only option they have to ignore incidents reported in the Incident Reports subforum is to put their heads up their asses.
On the other hand... That's probably pretty good introductory training for anyone who wants to participate in this sport and get along reasonably well with all the total douchebags who infest and control it.
AndRand - 2013/10/27 22:32:44 UTC
Poland
Here in PL, there was similar accident couple of years ago.
Similar WHAT?
During tow launch pilot was on steep up course when bridle broke. The glider slipped backwards down on the keel from about twenty to thirty feet.
...an appropriate weak link. An appropriate weak link breaks before you can get into too much trouble.
I don't want to discuss details or consider what could be or shouldn't have been done...
Then go fuck yourself. When shit like this happens people who know the details have moral obligations to discuss details and consider what could be or shouldn't have been done and reach a resolution.
...but it wasn't case of Next Set of Tubes.
It was fatal.
- Damn dude! You guys have really gotta start using appropriate weak links. They increase the safety of the towing operation and when one breaks when the glider's on a steep up course he just pulls in quickly - as he practiced in tandem training - recovers from the stall, rotates to upright, flares hard, and lands on his feet. Nothing more than an inconvenience.
Either that or no one really understands what happened - especially the people who weren't there and/or from Tad's hole in the ground.
- So where were you when the wires were melting down as a consequence of the Zack Marzec discussions? And do you think that there's the slightest possibility that if you had reported this at the time and helped keep a discussion going that Zack might have been more inclined to be using one of the two hundred pound weak links that his friends and colleagues at Morningside decided they were happy with?
Paraglider Collapse - 2013/10/28 04:54:30 UTC
Well, I'm certainly glad I clicked on this pointless quote of an old report.
I'm not. Despite your asinine despicable comment you might have been alerted to a problem and thus learned something that might prevent you from being seriously fucked up or killed as a consequence of a Hang Glider Collapse somewhere down the road.
2014/05/12 01:19:55 UTC - Sink This! -- Rick Cavallaro
Nic Welbourn - 2013/10/28 05:38:46 UTC
Canberra
...so you decided to post a dreary comment to let us all know. How clever.
That doesn't BEGIN to cover it.
Paraglider Collapse - 2013/10/28 21:23:29 UTC
And so you criticize my "dreary comment" with a dreary comment of your own. How hypocritical.
Go fuck yourself, dude. Yeah, paragliders got their problems and there's no shortage of total assholes in that game. But get your own act cleaned up before you start shooting your mouth off about them. And tell Rick Masters he can go fuck himself too.
2014/05/12 01:20:11 UTC - Sink This! -- Rick Cavallaro
Nic Welbourn - 2013/10/28 22:36:33 UTC
Yes, that was the point. And thanks for the PM from you reiterating your thoughts.
He doesn't have any thoughts - just a mouth.
And then there's a post from Michael at 2013/10/29 19:41:43 UTC with a recounting of some of the history of the carnage resulting from the difficulties Wills Wing has had producing a glider with nose wires that can be relied upon to stay engaged through the course all normal types of hang gliding operations.
USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05
Summary: I observed the accident from a few hundred yards away, but could clearly see launch and the aero tow was coming towards my area so that I had a full view of the flight. I was at the wreckage in a few seconds and afterwards gathered the information that helps understand the results of some unfortunate poor decisions of the injured pilot.
The pilot launched at 12:15 while conditions were just starting to become thermally, with just a slight crosswind of maybe 20 degrees with winds of 8 to 12 mph NNW. The pilot had flown here via AT more than 50 times.
Holly immediately had control problems right off the dolly and completed 3 oscilations before it took her 90 degrees from the tow vehicle upon when the tug pilot hit the release and Holly continued turning away from the tow in a fairly violent exchange of force . Holly pulled in to have control speed and then began rounding out , but there was not enough altitude and she hit the ground before she could do so. She was barely 100 feet when she was locked out in a left hand turn. At that time, she was banked up over 60 degrees.
The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first. She had a full face helmet, which helped reduce her facial injuries but could not totallly prevent them. The gliders wings were level with the ground when it made contact with the ground.
First aid was available quickly and EMT response was appropriate .
Now, why did Holly not have control? Holly has two gliders, a Moyes Sonic, and the Moyes Litesport that she was flying during the accident. She has flown here in much stronger conditions before. and has always flown safely , on both of her gliders, but usually chooses her Sonic if air is questionable, or if she hasn't flown in a while.
Holly for some reason chose to fly her Litesport, she has always towed it with proper releases and weak links and usually seeked advice from me when unsure of something.
This time she couldn't find her v-bridle top line with her weak link installed for her priimary keel release. She chose to tow anyway, and just go from the shoulders, which to my knowledge she had never done before, nor had she been trained to understand potential problems. This could have been done with a short clinic and if we thought it a possibility, been done under supervised conditions in the evening air. Our dollys have check lists for many things, one is that you have a proper weak link installed. She had no weak link as it was normally on the upper line that she couldn't find, and we can only assume that she didn't even consider the fact that she now didn't have a weak link.
These mistakes caused her to have too much bar pressure, farther in bar position, she was cross controlling, and had no weak link. She hadn't flown that glider in a while and changed these towing aspects that I believe all combined to make a violant combination. The pilot also stayed on tow too long. She should have released after the first, or even the second oscilation when she realized that things were not correct. Failing to do so put the glider in a locked out situation that she could no longer control.
Damn! It never really sunk in for me just what a fucking idiot this guy is until I reread this moronic report.
Just posting a couple quick thoughts on recent events from USHPA events...
Ryan Voight moves out of Utah and gives up his Regional Director seat. Immediately Ryan is named board member at large. No vote. Just like he became Regional Director. Apparently I have to continue to listen to his cocky nonsense...
Cocky, disingenuous, ass covering, lying crap.
...and pay dues to do so... without a vote.
How much is his pay from USHPA for writing? Don't the members ever get any say (or vote)?
Sorry to start the rant but it's due...
---
Last edited by oldhgpilot on 2013/10/25 01:24:47 UTC; edited 1 time in total
2013/10/24 03:11:21 UTC - Sink This! -- Fred Wilson
2013/10/24 04:00:50 UTC - Sink This! -- Paul Hurless
2013/10/24 13:36:20 UTC - Sink This! -- Brad Barkley
Davis Straub - 2013/10/24 03:25:31 UTC
There is no pay for BOD members. They can be reimbursed for their travel expenses to attend BOD meetings, twice a year, if they so wish.
But, for just about all of them, the ability they have to keep the sport in the sewer is all the pay they need.
Davis Straub - 2013/10/24 03:29:32 UTC
Members vote on Regional Directors. The BOD members vote of At Large Directors. There are five At Large Directors.
They are elected each year.
But only as a reward for the fantastic work they continue to do.
Paul Hurless - 2013/10/24 04:09:05 UTC
An anonymous drive-by lacks all credibility.
- As does damn near everything authored by Paul Hurless.
- And what was your reason for cutting your screen name down to "Paul H"?
- Any comments on Jack Show peanuts AKA Dennis Wood and the success that total fucking asshole has had shielding his identity?
gluesniffer - 2013/10/24 04:11:28 UTC
oldhgpilot - 2013/10/24 04:20:11 UTC
Sometimes anonymity is essential to bring important topics to the larger masses without fears of unwarranted repercussions.
Just sayin.
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
...could anyone suffer just for bringing important topics to the larger masses?
I just bring up the topic to spark dialog and discussion.
Mark G. Forbes - 2013/10/24 04:42:49 UTC
Directors-at-large
At the fall meeting, each year, the twenty elected Regional Directors are responsible for electing an additional five Directors-At-Large, who can be any members that are nominated for the position. Historically these positions have gone to members who bring certain skills to the board...
...information suppression and distortion, whitewashing, character assasination, brown nosing...
...or who may be up for election as officers. For example, Bill Bolosky has served as USHPA Secretary the past few years, and again this year. He's not an elected Regional Director (Rich Hass and I serve that role in Region 1) but to be an Officer he needs to be a voting Director.
Candidates are nominated, and the top five vote-getters are the winners. This year, the Directors-At-Large are Dennis Pagen, Steve Rodrigues, Bill Bolosky, Ryan Voight and Jamie Shelden. Ryan got in, and Dave Broyles got out.
Dennis, Ryan, and Jamie are scum, don't know Steve and Bill but if they couldn't have gotten in if they weren't scum, Dave's a sellout.
Dennis and Jamie are involved in CIVL, Steve Rodrigues chairs the Organization and Bylaws committee (responsible for keeping our internal SOPs, bylaws and related systems in order), Bill is serving another sentence as USHPA Secretary and Ryan is on the hook for some projects, I think.
Super. I hope they keep up the great work.
After Directors-At-Large are chosen, we hold elections for the Officers. The Board voted to re-elect the existing crew, which is Rich Hass as President, Ken Grubbs as Vice President, Bill, and me as Treasurer.
There's one additional voting Director position, and that's held by Art Greenfield of the NAA. It's "ex-officio", meaning that it's a position that's appointed by the NAA and not voted on. We have a reciprocal position on the NAA board, which is held by the USHPA president.
None of us gets paid, but we are entitled to reimbursement for some portion of our travel expenses. Most BOD members don't take the reimbursement, but it's there if we need or want it. The only time I've been reimbursed is when I had to make a special trip between board meetings for some other USHPA business that I was involved in.
I hope that makes things a bit clearer for you.
Mark G. Forbes
USHPA Regional Director and Treasurer (again!)
Corvallis, Oregon
2013/10/24 06:15:18 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Fred Wilson
2013/10/24 10:04:39 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Rowan
oldhgpilot - 2013/10/24 04:50:03 UTC
Insurance
Mark-
Thank you for the reply. As a non-profit I would also like to know the reasons for the insurance prices and see a review of the claims if possible. If not possible it would be nice to know why.
The cost of membership is high (although I fully understand that it is low in comparison to GA) but I would like to know what the actual insurance numbers are... instead of "25 " higher.
2013/10/24 14:35:57 UTC - Sink This! -- Jack Barth
oldhgpilot - 2013/10/24 04:55:17 UTC
Magazine
Also, with the abundance of excellent information on the internet...
Yeah, right.
...thanks Oz Report and others...
Fuck The Davis Show and others. You only get to hear what Davis and others permit you to hear.
It would be nice to omit the magazine and save $15-$20 per year. Just a thought.
Here's another thought... That piece of crap should've been scrapped close to twenty years ago.
Mark G. Forbes - 2013/10/24 04:58:47 UTC
And one more thing..
Forgot to mention...
At the start of the BOD meeting, we accepted a resignation from Don Lepinsky of Region 5 (ID, MT, ND) who is back in college and swamped getting his thesis done. He's been a real asset to the board and we'll miss him. With his resignation, we had an open seat and therefore had to fill it under the bylaws.
Josh Pierce is the only candidate running in the election for Don's seat, and that term would start in January. He was at the Seattle meeting, so the Board held an election and voted to have him fill the remainder of Don's term. That was done first, so that R5 would have a voting representative on subsequent issues.
At the conclusion of the board meeting, Ryan submitted his resignation as R4 Regional Director, effective at the end of the meeting, since he's moving out of the region. If he hadn't done so, we would have had an open seat until the next BOD meeting in March, because the EC can't act on behalf of the Board to fill an open seat under the bylaws. Directors give up their seat when they move out of a region, and Ryan is moving at the end of this month.
With that seat open, after the conclusion of the Director-At-Large and Officer elections, we held an election to replace Ryan effective at the end of the meeting. Bill Belcourt was elected and will serve out the remainder of Ryan's term, which ends in December of 2014.
Mark G. Forbes - 2013/10/24 05:10:20 UTC
Re: Insurance
I would like to be able to share that information in a public form. I can't though, for a variety of reasons that relate to how our legal system works. What I can tell you is that I've seen the financial data that underlies the insurance rates, and I believe that the numbers are real, and we're seeing a price that reflects the currently-perceived risk that our sport entails.
On the good side of things, our pilot/recreational/site insurance policy did not increase by a lot. On the bad side, the instructor policy did... that's where the 25 percent estimated increase comes from. It's an estimate; it might not actually be that bad, but we budget conservatively and we plan for the worst. In round numbers, we pay about $215K/year for pilot insurance, and about $240K/year for instructors. That's in the budget, which is posted online for members to review on our website. Both numbers have increased significantly in the past few years, driven by a mix of past claims and potential future claims.
Insurance rates are driven by risk, which includes not just claims paid in the past, but potential claims in the pipeline. I can't be more specific than that, but our insurers look at *all* of the factors when pricing our premium. Our instructor policy is only a few years old, so it's more sensitive to year-to-year variations, compared to our pilot policy which we've had for decades. A bad year is less of a factor when averaged in over a longer period.
I hope that helps your understanding. I wish I could be more specific, but that's not possible.
2013/10/24 06:16:53 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Fred Wilson
2013/10/24 10:07:36 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Rowan
Joel Froehlich - 2013/10/24 11:16:58 UTC
Hi Mark,
Thanks for taking a minute or two to post a reply, however it is quite shocking to find that in order to cover the differences, USHPA has decided to increase the 30 day student memberships from $3.00 to $5.00 each. It may not seem like much to you, but to those of us that are in the business of teaching students, it really does have a financial impact.
You mention that the instructor side shows an increase in premiums. So I guess the EC decided to target the instructors who are trying to grow this sport.
The instructors trying to grow this atrocity DESERVE to be targeted. And where the fuck were you in any of the discussions on those two incidents?
Just how many of the claims presented to the insurance stem from thirty day membership claims? Or is it just that the USHPA EC decided to target the one really continuing cash inflow that they have while the overall pilot base is in decline?. Honestly, you just increased across the board the cost to every instructor in our organization over the next calendar year or until the thirty day student membership rates rise again. Tell me again how this helps to promote and grow our sport? This equivocates...
Equivocates?
...to a 66 percent increase. I'm sure you're as aware as all the other members of the EC, that the costs will just have to be passed on to the new students, creating another increased barrier to entry. Until instructors can change pricing models, they will initially bear the brunt.
50 waivers at $3 each = $150
50 waivers at $5 each = $250
Was there any attempt to reach out to the instructor base?
Fred Wilson - 2013/10/24 11:51:14 UTC
Vernon, British Columbia
Kuddos Mark. Nicely said, as always: You are a Natural born Diplomat.
Yeah, just what the sport needs - diplomats. Diplomats, moderators, people who want to be a friends to every pilot they meet.
A furriner juts in here with a side comment:
Lawsuits are more likely to be aimed at a commercial operation, or include them in a "shotgun" or frivolous lawsuit.
Maybe if we had more "shotgun" and frivolous lawsuits we'd see a lot less bullshit like THIS:
My calculations and test suggest the 200 lb. is right for me. I weigh 185 pounds, fly a T2 154 (75 lbs), and my harness fully loaded is 35 pounds. Total all up flying weight is 185 + 75+ 35 = 295 lbs. Times 1.4 = 413. I use Pro tow barrel release so divide by 2 = 206.5. I feel the White and purple is a good fit for me.
Fuck you, Mark.
(How many family members would know that a student / their loved one had signed a waiver? Hmm?)
How many family members would know that this sport is being controlled by a bunch of serial killers protected by a corporate lawyer?
It is comparatively very unusual for a lawsuit to be aimed at a registered club or charitable organization, or even an individual for that matter. So saying the same thing as Mark did, but in a different way of phrasing it:
- Therefore insurers have to cost in the risk / reward for different segments of society.
Aside:
Legend has it that the rich set jot off to some tropical island each February and meet to set the insurance rates for the rest of us. The rest of us mortals get to enjoy just being along for the ride.
Timing your fiscal year around this (to your benefit) has proven to be exemplary Risk management Practice. (Lock in early approaching "year end" policies in particular if the insurer's immediate future forecast cost forcast appears inflationary.)
Nuff said Fred.
AichThree - 2013/10/24 12:38:05 UTC
I for one have absolutely no interest in saving $20/yr to not have the magazine. $100/yr, big deal.
Anybody who wants that magazine deserves to have it.
Davis Straub - 2013/10/24 14:49:50 UTC
You should check out the cost of membership in Australia. Much much higher. And you are required to be a member of the HGFA if you wish to fly a hang glider any where in that country.
We are militant with this sort of thing down here. Anyone seen walking around in their harness unhooked are immediately pulled up, by everyone. Not sure of the reaction if the justification was to keep the harness clean or scratched free, or that it was uncomfortable to bend over because there was extra weight to carry, or they have a sore back. It would probably be advice along the lines of 'harden the f^&k up'.
Unfortunately, the flying community is experiencing growing pains as it moves from a "fringe" sport of "good old boys" into the mainstream world.
It always has been and always will be a fringe sport of good ol' boys.
Gone are the days when a few adventurous individuals were pioneering a novel form of entertainment.
- This is AVIATION - not "entertainment".
- Adventurous individuals are assholes. They're the absolute last people you want pioneering anything in this game.
- This sport didn't never needed pioneering. It needed an understanding of conventional aviation and adapting that understanding to hang gliding.
With the advent of flying schools and high volume / highly visible sites the sport has steadily moved into the mainstream arena.
Bullshit. It's steadily moved the sport into inbreeding, corruption, mandated incompetence.
Addressing these issues that result from this evolution is going to take a very forward thinking approach that incorporates input from members that are both new and old.
The only forward thinking that's going on in this sport...
I can see your frustration as we now have a "professional" not for profit corporation called the USHPA. Which IMHO is no longer geared to be responsive to the needs of the pilot, but to those of the corporation.
It used to be a case of ineptitude and nepotism amongst the BOD, but now they are professionals...
Your best hope at this point is to send a copy of what you want changed, where in the SOPs, the changes themselves, and your arguments to the USHPA President, Executive Director, Towing Committee Chair, Safety and Training Committee Chair, Organization and Bylaws Committee Chair; with a cover letter asking that these changes be made to the necessary documents. I would try to work through Tracy Tillman and Dave Broyles.
Then I would plan to take this to the next BOD meeting. If you can not go and champion this yourself, then find another to do so. Should this fail to get action of any sort, especially on the weak link standard and test standards then...
Send your work to the FAA by certified mail and a copy to the USHPA, also certified, with a cover explaining your action and stating that if any injury of death occurs because the USHPA and its directors failed to take action that they are negligent in their duties to the pilot community.
Now I must tell you that the "New" "Better" "Professional" USHPA has gone to great length to insulate themselves from any responsibility/liability IMHO. So needless to say, as you seem to have found out, you will have little chance to get anything done, but there is always hope if you make enough noise.
...is in the area of The Industry finding new, better, and more professional ways to insulate itself from responsibility and liability.
Just because you are a "lowly" H2/P2 does not mean that your input is invalid.
It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).
We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.
I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.
...it does.
Likewise, a very experienced older pilot may not be able to adequately address issues related to the younger, emerging demographic (which is NOT to say that their input is invalid either).
How does a very experienced young and new "pilot" - a Zack Marzec for example - fit into the equation?
It is sometimes frustrating to be minimized due to lack of experience, even on issues which are not specifically related to flying (such as insurance/membership dues etc).
Give me a single example of experience counting for shit in anything regarding policy. What is it that a thirty year Hang Five with all the merit badges can understand that a smart junior high school kid who's never been anywhere near a glider can't?
On an unrelated note: saving even $20/year by not buying the magazine IS a big deal for some of us and would be a great option.
PAYING twenty bucks a year for a magazine that can and does include the kind of disgusting deadly crap spewed out by total douchebags like Dr. Trisa Tilletti?
2013/10/24 15:24:30 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Gaar
NMERider - 2013/10/24 17:18:40 UTC
Sorry to burst your bubble Axen, but hang gliding is a fringe sport whose heyday came and went more than two decades ago.
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
Nobody's flying them, Jonathan. Ninety percent of the instruction and sport is geared to dangerous fucking no stepper spot landings which do nothing but crash, injure, cripple, and kill people and, even when they get away with them for years or decades...
It is precisely because we are a fringe sport that we need liability insurance and liability waivers in order to fly at sites that are reasonably close to where we live and work.
Tow sites are a lot more available to a lot more of the US population than slope sites. Try doing it with...
...a bit of common sense injected into the equation.
Anyone familiar with FAR 103 knows that it is legal to fly anywhere you please as long as it's in compliance with the FARs and local property rights and ordinances. There are many members of the Org who fly regularly and are not members of USHPA and are not in violation of any law.
None who aerotow. You've got some serious monopoly issues going on there.
I fly XC regularly in one of the most densely populated areas of the United States - the Los Angeles Basin. I assure you that I am engaged in a fringe activity as there are very few of us and of the tens of millions of local residents, very few are even aware that we exist.
Because of the hard efforts of Mark Forbes in creating a waiver that allows USHPA to buy liability insurance at a very reasonable rate I have a level of freedom and enjoyment that very few of those tens of millions can even imagine exists.
Good for you, Jonathan. Because of the hard efforts of Mark G. Forbes and his sleazy ilk in making sure the assholes on the front end of my string never had to comply with any semblance of any USHGA or FAA safety regulations I never had the option to participate in the sport within a sane driving distance of home in a safe acceptable manner. And because of my hard efforts to the contrary I no longer have the freedom to participate in it at all.
I will appreciate that it is the tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of any so-called weak link system and not mine.
Fuck you.
I have maintained a realistic log of my flying and related expenses. FYI - hang gliding for me costs $60/hour. Yes, that's right folks - sixty dollars per hour. That is the real cost of the flying I do and it includes $275/year I pay in USHPA and club dues not counting the day-use fees I pay when visiting other sites.
If I do the math I can tell you that I pay fifty cents per hour to USHPA for my liability insurance and hence my privilege of soaring near civilization. That's less than one percent of my cost per hour to fly locally.
Anyhow, this thread has gone off topic. IMHO it started out as an anti-Ryan Voight rant. We don't need to be anti-anyone on this forum...
IIRC - Tad has already worn out his welcome on the Oz Report over his AT release mechanism, and so it seems he has come here to preach his gospel of safety according to Tad. The prize of course will either be delivered by the HMS Beagle or can be found on the Gallapagos Islands.
...ON *THAT* FORUM?
- *THAT* FORUM is a dictatorship run by a sleazy lying piece of shit with nothing but a paper thin pretense of rules. And anybody on it tolerated by Jack...
On the other hand there are plenty of people who fly lots but still manage to spew out the most incredible and dangerous garbage to others.
This includes some of the "professional" people who work in the industry and are therefore able to regard themselves as such.
They really believe they have a monopoly on knowledge and when finding themselves on the losing side of a debate resort to the old standby "This is what we do so fuck off you weekender".
I say good riddance to those nauseating, know it all, self indulgent "professionals" who have banished themselves from this site.
Is it OK be anti that piece of shit now that he's off and banned and over sucking Davis's dick in return for Davis's lock, delete, and ban button protections?
I voted for Bob after spending a very enjoyable hour on the telephone with him a few months ago. My impression of Bob is that he is a level headed and enthusiastic supporter of both hang gliding and paragliding, and above all: SAFETY.
Any of THEM fair game?
...precisely because we are such a fringe sport that there are very few of us to keep our local flying alive and accessible.
- There'd be a lot more of us if it weren't for scum like Mark, Davis, Rooney, Ryan, Paulen...
- And precisely BECAUSE there are so very few of "us" we need to go after scum like Mark, Davis, Rooney, Ryan, Paulen with a vengeance - CONSTANTLY.
Hang gliding will never again be any more mainstream than it was in the 80s and 90s.
If you want it to be more mainstream start bringing it in line with mainstream aviation and getting it out from under the control of cults like USHGA and the Jack and Davis Shows and the big commercial operations.
It is a dinosaur as far as sports go and it is our obligation to work together (no matter how much we may or may not stand one another personally) to keep this Jurassic Park alive and running.
BULLSHIT. It needs to be factionalized as much as possible.
Under the current system...
- Nobody's:
-- teaching:
--- preflight sidewire load tests
--- hook-in checks
--- that:
---- one point aerotow bridles are inherently dangerous
---- the purpose of the:
----- weak link is to prevent structural overload and that if you need to use it as an emergency release you're gonna die
----- hook knife is to provide a placebo in place of a functional release
-- allowing wheel landings to be used in qualifying for ratings
-- running Dragonfly towing in anything resembling compliance with FAA safety regulations
-- going to prison for negligent homicide for cutting power on gliders in emergency situations
- Mainstream releases that can be blown in emergency situations are nonexistent.
- A HUGE percentage of launches are controlled by outlaw ultralight jockeys with little to no concern for the gliders behind them.
- The national magazine is a pure unadulterated Industry infomercial.
- Statements outside of the shit filled sphere of mainstream operation are not tolerated.
2013/10/24 17:46:31 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Tim Dyer
2013/10/24 19:13:31 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Rowan
Just posting a couple quick thoughts on recent events from USHPA events...
Ryan Voight moves out of Utah and gives up his Regional Director seat. Immediately Ryan is named board member at large. No vote. Just like he became Regional Director. Apparently I have to continue to listen to his cocky nonsense and pay dues to do so... without a vote.
He is selling Wings Over Wasatch, any buyers? He didn't do @$&! to promote safe flying in Utah (ask him about the shoulder incident) and believes that he can always say he's right and everyone else is wrong.
How much is his pay from USHPA? Don't the members ever get any say (or vote)?
Sorry to start the rant but it's due...
Deletion and modification from original post in red.
haha , he is now back at Ellenville spreading joy to us all.
Yes, He is opinionated but most of us are.
Got that straight. Opinion is what inevitable cascades in to fill the gaping competence void.
yes, he did have a incident with a new harness that thumped him in pretty good. Others had the same problem with that harness.
- Oh. So Ryan God's-Gift-To-Aviation Voight sustained a significant/serious shoulder injury due to a serious deficiency of a mainstream/commercial harness. So how come:
-- there's been no advisory or recall on this harness?
-- the we've gotta ask the little shit about the shoulder incident?
- BULLSHIT. The only people who've ever had shoulders torn up as consequences of problem harnesses are the victims of those crap training jobs which force them to fly upright.
Over all I think he is a very safe pilot working hard to make the sport grow.
Of course you do. I'd be astonished if the case were otherwise.
Utah will miss him.
No doubt whatsoever.
Its good to have both young and old members on the board.
And - lo and behold - we HAVE both young and old members on the board! And look at how great everything is as a result!
Steve Corbin - 2013/10/24 18:43:56 UTC
Crestline
So where is Ryan going?
To Hell, eventually. But probably not soon enough to do most of us any good.
NMERider - 2013/10/24 19:33:12 UTC
He moved back home to Ellenville. As you are probably aware, he is raising a family now. It helps to be near the folks/grandparents to bring a child up. Years ago there was a poll here on the Org about active pilots with children. The percentage was very high.
Great. I'm so happy for the gene pool.
Dan Moser - 2013/10/24 21:17:58 UTC
Sandy, Utah
I don't know where you get your "information", but you are full of crap, oldhgpilot..
Ryan was an excellent advocate for HG flying safety improvements here in Utah ..
The Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney of slope launch hang gliding.
he was helpful to everyone...
And, of course, EVERYONE is in total agreement with you and authorized you to speak on his behalf.
...and has even taught us old-timers a thing or two -- that is -- those of us who are open minded enough to actually listen.
And feeble-minded enough to actually buy into the crap he spews.
So his blunt personality didn't sit well with you, huh?.. well, who gives a rat's a$$ ?? .. what is this, junior high? .. grow up!
I'm fine with blunt personality. I've got a BIG problem with...
It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.
During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?
Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release
Once you get enough speed that the glider lifts and your hang strap is tight, running forwards and towards the higher wing is using weight shift to roll the glider back to level.
As long as the hang straps are tight, the correct input is typically to change your running direction - running more towards the lifted wing. This is effectively weight shifting to roll the glider level.
It's all about what the glider feels. Running to the right pulls the hang loop to the right, just like when you weight shift at three thousand feet. Glider doesn't know or care what means you used to pull the hang loop to the right.
Ryan Voight - 2012/09/26 20:05:16 UTC
I can (and have) run across a field and steer the glider without ever touching the DT's by simply changing the direction I run. At the beach (or South Side) I like to practice kiting my wing with no hands, and just moving my hips (and stepping if necessary) left/right.
Pulling the hang loop to the right is pulling the hang loop to the right - glider don't care if you're dangling beneath it or still touching the ground. As long as your mains are tight, you can weight shift it!
...with some asshole spewing out whatever crap and lies he feels like whenever it suits him.
And yes, he had an accident ..
Bullshit. He had a CRASH.
hurt his shoulder in an HG crash ..
Yes - a CRASH.
does that completely destroy his credibility?..
WHAT credibility? Anybody who thinks this motherfucker has any credibility whatsoever has been drinking WAY too much Kool-Aid for WAY too long.
if that's the test, there are damn few credible and experienced HG pilots out there.
- Crashing and tearing up a shoulder or breaking an arm...
You see... the human shoulder limits how far you can pull in. Prone or upright, you can really only get your hands back about even with your shoulders.
...is virtually ALWAYS a consequence of coming into a putting green with one's hands on the downtubes.
- For most people it's a consequence of their conditioning and is pretty much irrelevant with respect to integrity.
- But Ryan's a pusher. He makes money conditioning people to do only dangerous landings on brain dead easy putting greens. So yeah, this one adds a good chunk to his massive credibility deficit.
- And hang gliding people as a rule totally suck. So finding one with any level of experience and credibility is a needle in a haystack sorta deal.
- And yes, let's note that the percentage of participants who have crashed gliders is huge - and that something close to a hundred percent of crashes are direct and sole consequences of foot landing attempts on putting greens.
2013/10/24 21:32:04 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider
2013/10/24 21:42:51 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jason Boehm
2013/10/24 22:12:38 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Rowan
2013/10/24 22:22:29 UTC - 3 thumbs up - John Borton
2013/10/24 23:01:47 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Brian Scharp
Ksykes...
They are also spewing forth on the .org the same drivel.
Whilst rating each others comments with 3 thumbs up(goodness knows where) and rating anyone who disagrees with a sink this vote.
I hope people are aware enough to see thru this weird behaviour.
I for one suggest that all 3 of them use 3000Kg links and try to show everyone else on video just how good they are.
This was an absolutely outstanding post.
A flaming coward that hides behind anonymity is the one who has no claim to credibility.
Bradley Manning wasn't a flaming coward and his credibility is totally excellent.
How 'bout we talk about those fucking psychopaths in the Apache and the scum that covered up for them and let them off the hook?
And all we know about Oakdude is that he's UK and his first name is Paul.
---
2022/01/16 - Paul Walsh
i bumped heads with ryan a couple of times.I have great respect for him...
I'd have been astonished if you didn't.
...because he did not file me away in the(dont listen to this guy file) unlike some others on this site.
I'll listen to ya all you want, Brian. It's really dangerous NOT to listen to the more prominent total assholes infesting this sport.
The respect comes from the fact that he flys...
Yeah. How could you possibly have any respect for anyone who doesn't fly, hasn't ever flown, doesn't really give much of a rat's ass about flying?
And then if you go to Bob Kuczewski level...
Bob Kuczewski - 2011/12/31 07:34:26 UTC
But if you want to talk numbers and logic, then start by explaining the laws of physics in terms of differential equations and not your simple 2+2=4 "logic" if you want my respect. Go ahead and explain the first quarter of Newtonian physics for us and see how far you get. We'll let you work your way up to the Navier-Stokes equations.
He doesn't have any respect for anyone who can't explain the first quarter of Newtonian physics in terms of differential equations. And that most certainly puts his buddies like...
If the flight parks insist on the use of a standard, each pilot still has the ability to blow the pilots weaklink with more tow force or less tow force just by increasing or decreasing the length of the shoulder to shoulder pro tow bridle.
The shorter the pro tow bridle the less tug force it will take to blow the standard weaklink.
The longer the pro tow bridle the more tug force it will take to blow the standard weaklink.
For those of you that were not aware of this or would like to either confirm or refute this claim to your own satisfaction I can direct you to a website with a moving diagram that will explain why this works far better than I can explain it here.
...Bill Cummings. And, just for laughs let's plug...
What you did there, Bob, was to state that the people in hang gliding for whom you have any respect whatsoever are virtually nonexistent. Only the very rarest of them can even do the simple 2+2=4 logic stuff. And what you did there was to prove that - while you may be able to run your fucking Navier-Stokes equations - which have absolutely no practical value in hang gliding - you're totally incapable of doing the simple 2+2=4 logic stuff - which is about all you need in hang gliding.
...and tells it like it is,unlike some others on this site.
Do yourself a big favor and shut the fuck up, Brian. Fly your ass off - just don't get involved in telling anyone anything about how to do it or who or what to listen to and ignore.
I dont like mind games and i suspect he dont either.
No, it's pretty fucking obvious that neither of you assholes is very comfortable around anything involving thought processes.
This site lost some of its appeal when he left.
I'll agree with you there. It's like a candy store whenever Ryan and Rooney go on the record about anything.
2013/10/25 00:00:35 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Glenn Zapien
2013/10/25 01:41:49 UTC - Sink This! -- NMERider
2013/10/25 11:52:14 UTC - Sink This! -- John Borton
Steve Baran - 2013/10/25 00:11:36 UTC
Chattaroy
Just a bit on the USHPA magazine. If you'd like to get your money's worth out of it and don't really want it yourself - leave the magazine in some sort of common area where people are stuck for a while.
Good idea. Then members of the general public can read Dr. Trisa Tilletti's
You are being much too complimentary IMHO. I got so nauseated reading it I had to take a breather. Do you mean to tell me they wrote an article that wasn't insipid and self-congratulatory to the extreme? I've found their entire series on aerotowing to come off rather poorly to say the least. A sad waste of such exalted and highly qualified medical professionals. How do I know this? Well they won't stop patting each other on the back about how great they both are.
Pardon me while I puke.
...Higher Education articles and see just how well we have our shit together.
You can also give them to a landowner or a place where pilots tend to gather after flying (tavern/pub, etc.).
It helps a lot if people are really drunk before they start reading this crap.
Put them on a stand/rock/etc. at a site where spectators frequent. I've personally found the magazine to be indispensable when having to make "cold contacts" with land owners I can't get in touch with otherwise (sending them in a packet when contacting landowners on using their land for our activities). Some of these contacts have been successful in developing new sites - that's gotta be worth something - if not priceless. There is no better way to give the uninformed an idea of the state of the art of our sports than to put a Hang Gliding & Paragliding Magazine in their hands.
Put them in toxic waste dumps.
2013/10/25 01:47:04 UTC - 3 thumbs up - TiCruiser
2013/10/25 10:47:07 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Rowan
oldhgpilot - 2013/10/25 01:26:41 UTC
Edit
See edit on 1st post to clarify the point of the original topic.
Davis Straub - 2013/10/25 01:34:57 UTC
Hey, old, did you not see the answer that BOD members are not paid?
oldhgpilot - 2013/10/25 01:41:11 UTC
Clarification
As a staff writer not BOD.
Davis Straub - 2013/10/25 02:09:04 UTC
As a former staff writer all I can say if he actually is one is that it is a very poorly paid position, and in fact not a job at all, but payment for each story on a piece basis.
But maybe things have changed.
They should've been paying you NOT to write anything.
And as far as Ryan goes, all I saw him do was to spend time giving some pretty good advice for the benefit of others and our sport - more than most give. Way more.
So much more, in fact, that he just didn't have the time or energy left over to make even a single comment in any of the Zack Marzec discussions. He was all tuckered out making statements about how Rooney Link pops were no big fucking deals...
Call me lucky, but 0 out of however many tows I've done in my life, tandem or Solo, results in a 100% success rate.
I have had weaklinks break, which I guess you'd call a 'kill'... all were non-eventful.
It seems to me that you're failing to look at what the PILOT did or didn't do in all of the accidents you've commented on. For example, that tandem accident - they let themselves get low behind the plane, then were pushing out to climb back up (rather than release and start over). The weaklink broke (from pushing out, imagine that), and now they're stalled with not enough altitude to recover (it was later determined that tandem gliders require a surprising amount of altitude to recover from a full stall).
...and if they DID kill a couple of people every now and then it was because someone under the glider did something wrong and...
Ryan Voight - 2009/11/06 18:14:30 UTC
Caption reads:
This Pin was deformed under something under a direct loading of 220 pounds (achievable for a 315 pound glider using a 1.4 G Weak Link).
All the more reason to use a WEAKER weaklink. If you're bending pins rather than breaking the weaklink, I have to think your weaklink is too strong (and now the pin has become the weakest link in the system
...how you needed Rooney Links anyway to keep your bent pin releases from...
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
...bending even more.
And then he left because he was continually attacked for his efforts... and yet the attacks continue, nice one.
I got continually attacked on your little shit heap. I just counterattacked until Jack locked the threads 'cause I was winning. And when I won too much he banned me. And I'm still getting attacked and still counterattacking and still winning.
So fuck Ryan. He doesn't have the brains, balls, or integrity to stick around and he deserves to have the hell attacked out of him for the rest of his life 'cause he's written crap that has helped kill a lot of people.
2013/10/25 03:23:16 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Glenn Zapien
Fuck you, Glenn.
Mark G. Forbes - 2013/10/25 03:15:16 UTC
Magazine contributor pay
Nick Greece is our editor, and he works on a contract basis. We pay him a negotiated fee for his services, which includes a budget item for contributor payments. He in turn determines how the contributors will be paid, and that is something which depends on the quality and quantity of the work produced.
If it sucks as much as the Dr. Trisa Tilletti crap do authors have to pay to get it printed? If so can you cut everyone's dues in half?
Some of the writers are just random members like us, who send in an article and some photos.
How 'bout an article from Lin Lyons on his experiences with Mission Soaring Center? You could use this photo:
Others are available to work on an assignment basis, when a story needs to be covered.
So I guess neither the Lenami Godinez-Avila or Zack Marzec stories needed to be covered - the former 'cause it didn't happen in the US and the latter 'cause it DID.
What's your idea of a story that NEEDS to be covered, Mark? What a great time everyone had at the last TTT Team Challenge and how nobody ran off Whitwell without his glider this time?
Still others write regularly or have a monthly column. We've had a variety of writers in different roles over the years.
You haven't included a GOOD writer in that variety since Doug Hildreth threw in the towel or was ousted.
If we're not happy with the results Nick produces, then we tell him what we want to have done differently. If we're really not happy with his work and he doesn't fix it, then we don't renew his contract the following year.
Who the fuck is "WE", Mark?
Now, nobody's saying we don't like his work.
Nobody's saying that "WE", the members of the Board of Directors, don't like his work? Yeah, that's probably an accurate statement.
I think the magazine looks the best it ever has...
As an advertisement for hang and paragliding? Fer sure!
Mike Blankenhorn - 2012/10/26 02:39:07 UTC
Orange County
Wow, I never saw it put quite like that before. Great write up!
...my article then.
But his job and how he performs it is not something that's subject to a vote of the members; he reports to the Executive Director and the EC, and as a contractor he's responsible for setting his own procedures for getting our monthly magazine together. We're not his only customer, either.
He's got another gig with British Petroleum.
Directors are not paid for their work on the Board. They *may* be paid for other projects for which they've contracted, and the board has to approve all such internal transactions. It's not typical, but we do have occasions where a board member takes on some job we need to have done, often because they have the specialized knowledge needed to do it.
Typically in the fucking-over-hang-glider-pilots department.
When I was producing the magazine archive sets, I was reimbursed for my expenses and materials involved in that project. I didn't get paid for my time, but I did cover the direct costs of making the boxed sets.
How are you coming with getting a patch for the fucked up Dave Broyles article in the 1977/05 scan?
gluesniffer - 2013/10/25 03:27:34 UTC
Mark, thanks again for your thorough responses...
Yeah Mark, you do a great job of thoroughly responding to the points you feel like thoroughly responding to - and totally ignoring the ones you don't feel like responding to.
...and your contribution to uspha.
Hard to imagine what USHPA would be without his contributions.
Besides a little chaff here and there...
A very little since Jack very wisely eliminated...
My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.
This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.
See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.
But then there's a crowd that "knows better". To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".
(Holy god, the names I've been called.)
I have little time for these people.
...are happy with the way Rooney and his Flight Park Mafia buddies do things. And the ones that don't are either sent to the back of the line, crashed...
...dead. So that tends to work out really well too.
gluesniffer - 2013/10/25 03:27:34 UTC
Mark, thanks again for your thorough responses and your contribution to uspha. Besides a little chaff here and there, it seems most people here appreciate your time
Try asking over here, dickhead.
Mark G. Forbes - 2013/10/25 03:39:47 UTC
We don't have a huge number of claims overall, so it's hard to make statistical inferences. I've seen claims related to both wing types. The type we have to worry about is not the wing, but rather the injury. Hitting "stuff" is relatively inexpensive usually. Hitting "people" is really expensive and that's where the money goes.
We've seen a "stuff" claim where a PG went into a power line, took out a neutral wire and blew up a bunch of electrical stuff in houses connected to that transformer. Luckily it didn't burn down three houses and a church, but it certainly could have gone that way. We had a HG clip a power line a few years ago during Thanksgiving Day, take out the power to a large area, and start a grass fire. The power company came after us for repairs and for all the lost profits from the thousands of un-cooked turkeys they didn't sell power to roast.
On the people side, we've seen claims from tandem accidents, both HG and PG...
Good thing Rooney was in Queenstown when he launched unhooked and dove his glider and passenger into the powerlines, huh Mark? And that Jon Orders was safely across the border at Mount Woodside - better part of seventeen miles - when he dropped Lenami a thousand feet.
You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.
I'm sorry that you don't like that the tug pilot has the last word... but tough titties.
Don't like it?
Don't ask me to tow you.
Go troll somewhere else buddy.
I'm over this.
...to keep these gliders from achieving such dangerously high angles of attack?
...and from solo accidents where family members or accident witnesses make claims for emotional trauma relating to an accident.
How 'bout girlfriends? Was Clara Moseley watching when Zack popped off and tumbled back onto the Quest runway? I REALLY think you need to be mandating much lighter weak links. Damn that FAA and their 0.8 G minimum.
We've had instances of HGs colliding with spectators, PGs hitting cars, and a case where a HG got spun in a dust devil and hit a spectator running to help secure it. That was a bad one, and a significant factor in our premium increase. That's one reason why we've been pushing on this whole site safety thing.
That is not a SPECTATOR and he wasn't RUNNING to help secure it. He was IN POSITION and HELPING TO secure it. He was doing EXACTLY what any fucking Hang Four would've been doing in that situation.
And if this was such a big fucking deal - and it WAS - you should be quite familiar with the FACTS of the incident and not misrepresenting them.
It's all one risk pool, and we don't see obvious trends that would suggest that some facet of our sport is more risky than another.
Yeah, the whole thing's a nice homogenized bloodbath.
Our insurers look at the total picture, not at internal details of our sport.
Bummer. The internal details are absolutely fascinating and when you look at them you tend to see the patterns that tie everything together.
We have *one* insurer for both policies; Lloyd's of London. This isn't the kind of insurance you get from Allstate or Geico. It's a negotiated, custom policy where a group of investors buys some share of our risk, making a nice profit if our claims rate is low, and taking a loss if it's high. Some years they may get a profit of 70% or more... but then there are years when they take a 200+% loss, which is why it's a gamble. This is NOT an investment for your average retired couple; it's for people with a few million to spare who'd like to buy into an investment that has much higher than typical returns, with a proportionate level of risk. Groups of investors buy into different risk pools, taking 20% of this, 30% of that and so on. The premium we pay reflects what our perceived level of risk is, and how much extra we have to offer to get somebody to take a gamble on it.
Life insurance is sort of the polar opposite. *None* of us is getting out of this alive, and there are millions of insured people. With that large a base, the actuaries can predict with extreme accuracy the chance that you'll die at a given age and health state, and price the coverage accordingly. The year-to-year variation is small, so the variability of the risk is lower and the returns are correspondingly smaller too. Investing in the stock of a large insurance company is a much less risky proposition for folks like us, but it doesn't pay off the way (in a good year) like the policy USHPA carries.
OTOH, you don't lose your life's savings either if somebody hits a spectator.
oldhgpilot - 2013/10/25 03:44:01 UTC
Davis-
I appreciate that you always have well thought out and apparently neutral comments and questions... signs of a true journalist.
Idiot. He's a lying sack of shit.
Kudos.
Get fucked.
What comes to mind is not that this position is voted on, but rather there is the appearance of nepotism instead of democracy within in the system.
Democracy in this game ain't all that great a thing neither.
It's concerning that the pursuit of these positions is to reach a higher status and consequently more control (with personal gains) as opposed to the overall benefit to the group.
It's corrupt as hell - and getting worse every season.
What many members fail to remember is that although we fly with insured sites through USHPA (which I don't believe is bad), these sites are typically public property.
Not after Kitty Hawk Kites and Highland Aerosports get comfortably entrenched.
Private property is totally different. Private owners have absolute authority to their land.
With that said, power wielded by USHPA BOD members is more important than salaried or hourly gains. It's the power to disqualify others flying at a Public Park and causing no harm based on an assumption that the pilot in question has broken a new rule (without firsthand witness).
Without naming names (I'm curious to see if they'll own up to it first), on May 10, 2009, one Director wrote:
We need to consider getting an injunction against this guy communicating with the FAA on this subject.
That same day, another Director responded:
I forwarded the letter to Tim Herr yesterday asking about this.
For those who don't know, Tim Herr is ... USHPA's lawyer!!
A third Director (who I'll call "Mr. X") chimed in that same day with this:
Mr. X wrote:
Perhaps a strongly worded letter from Tim will do the trick. We can't force Tad to work within the USHPA framework but we can make it unpleasant and expensive for him if he chooses to makes derogatory and false statements about USHPA to the FAA he can't back up.
If I understand the previous comments, his sending USHPA a draft letter is an indication of willingness to engage in some dialogue before going to the FAA.
Good luck with this guy!
...rules made up on the spot to justify what they're doing and eliminate sources of dissent. Be really careful about choosing to make derogatory and true statements about USHPA to the FAA you can back up with fatality reports and Accident Review Committee Chairman statements from Mark's magazine archives.
It should go without saying that it's better to live by rules that you create for your business than rules created by a competitor.
Larry Jorgensen - 2011/02/17 13:37:47 UTC
Air Adventures NW
Spanaway, Washington
It did not come from the FAA, it came from a USHPA Towing Committee made up of three large aerotow operations that do tandems for hire.
Appalling.
It should be okay to question leaders in a non-profit that you are forced into. It should be okay for Instructors to question cost increases. It should also be okay to question insurance claims when they are this huge unknown cost.
Is it OK to insist that USHGA and FAA safety regulations be adhered to?
RYAN WAS singled out because he acts like we're too stupid to understand and that we should shut up and toe the line.
How 'bout Bill Moyes, Davis, Rooney, Steve Kroop, Dr. Trisa Tilletti...
The world of freeflight is filled with the most productive, innovative, and talented people I have ever met.
Don't get out much, do ya? If this world is so filled with productive, innovative, and talented people how come we keep sliding backwards in fixing the deadly problems we have with weak links, releases, hook-in checks, landings?
These are doctors, lawyers, and your neighbors.
Fuck all of them.
It insults the intelligence of the common group when the members are not allowed to ask questions.
Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.
Again, tell me how all this nonsense is about "safety"?
So, a stronger weaklink allows you to achieve higher AOAs... but you see high AOAs coupled with a loss of power as *the* problem? So you want something that will allow you to achieve even higher AOAs?
Are you NUTS?
I'm tired of arguing with crazy.
As I said many times... there are those that listen with the intent of responding... you unfortunately are one.
You've done a great job of convincing me never to tow you.
Thank you for that.
Mission accomplished.
I appreciate that you always have well thought out and apparently neutral comments and questions... signs of a true journalist. Kudos.
Not only do I not claim to be neutral, I actively condemn this as a false position taken by major media. I have questioned your statements and maybe you don't like someone asking pointed questions that reveal weaknesses in your arguments.
And when your "arguments" are revealed to be total crap you just delete posts, lock down threads, ban people, and remove your forum from public view.
What comes to mind is not that this position is voted on, but rather there is the appearance of nepotism instead of democracy within in the system.
I have in the past in the Oz Report condemned the USHPA Competition Committee when there was a strong conflict of interest. You appear to be old enough to be able to remember that.
Steve Kroop - Russell Brown - Bob Lane - Jim Prahl - Campbell Bowen
The tail section of the Dragonfly is designed so that it can accept in-line as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive in-line or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle. More simply put, the mast would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.
Tad doesn't agree, but the rest of us no doubt do, that we are in a partnership with the tug pilot, and that he needs to be protected also, and therefore our weaklink has to be less than his.
Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
Knowing the basic structure of the magazine and the BOD I don't see any nepotism here (as Mark has pointed out). Staff writers aren't voted on so there is no issue of democracy.
Seems to me as a journalist that you just don't like Ryan, so you're coming up with anything that you can.
- You are not a JOURNALIST by ANY stretch of imagination. You are a total fraud and have conflict of interest oozing out of every orifice and pore in your body.
- Anybody who likes Ryan is scum.
oldhgpilot - 2013/10/25 04:07:49 UTC
Fair enough Davis. It is not constructive to continuously name names but some use a megaphone rather than talking.
Mark G. Forbes - 2013/10/25 04:28:41 UTC
Joel Froehlich - 2013/10/24 11:16:58 UTC
Hi Mark,
Thanks for taking a minute or two to post a reply, however it is quite shocking to find that in order to cover the differences, USHPA has decided to increase the 30 day student memberships from $3.00 to $5.00 each.
We either get a handle on this risk management problem and get the claims rate down (by not having accidents where people get hurt), or we consider taking instruction out of USHPA completely.
We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.
Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.
Pick one, Mark. You can't have it both ways.
That's an extreme case, and in today's legal climate would probably be the death rattle of our sport. We might survive for a while without organized instruction, but long term it would spell the end for us. I really hope we never have to face that decision.
And on that cheery note...
WHAT organized instruction? Everybody just does and teaches whatever noncompliant crap he feels like - and it's been that way for over three decades.
"The purpose of the United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association is to promote the growth of sport flying in foot-launchable soaring aircraft."
To this end the USHPA will:
1. Develop and administer programs that foster the growth of the association membership and the public acceptance of the sport.
2. Develop, standardize and administer programs that will foster and promote practices for safe flying and disseminate information on such practices and programs to its members.
And here's what you motherfuckers are actually doing:
We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of our association. I wish it were not so, but it is. We don't sell equipment, we don't offer instruction, and we don't assure pilots that they'll be safe. Even so, we get sued periodically by people who say we "shoulda, coulda, woulda" done something that would have averted their accident.
You're totally betraying the core mission of organized hang gliding and stated principles in order to just keep oozing along with the way things are being done and on the advice of your sleazebag lawyer. That's not sustainable. And I really hope that entire shit heap collapses on top of you guys and all the other sleazebags controlling this show. Then maybe ten years down the road some decent people will sift through the ashes, see exactly what you motherfuckers did to crash the system, and give it another shot doing things right.
We either get a handle on this risk management problem and get the claims rate down (by not having accidents where people get hurt), or we consider taking instruction out of USHPA completely.
We don't sell equipment, we don't offer instruction, and we don't assure pilots that they'll be safe.
...when it's not anything you offer in the first place?
This is pure unadulterated bullshit. You bloody well DO offer, provide, establish the standards for instruction and certify the instructors to implement it and sign off on ratings.
There is no "completely" or "incompletely" about it. You're either responsible for it or you're not - and you ARE responsible for it. And, hopefully, after somebody runs off a ramp without his glider because some total fucking asshole like Tom Galvin taught him to omit hook-in checks because...
I don't teach lift and tug, as it gives a false sense of security.
...they give the pilot a false sense of security his next of kin's gonna hire an attorney smart enough to figure out who all the assholes in the chain of command that led up to the incident are...
Others had the same problem with that harness.
