Kite Strings

Terry's cable rust discovery is interesting. I wonder if that could explain the issues I had with my original Lookout release. Also makes my worried I could see the same issue with my Joe Street release...

Tad Eareckson wrote:Ever hear of a VG system seizing up because of rust?

No, but I must say my VG is harder to pull than when I got the glider. Not sure why.

Zack

I wonder if that could explain the issues I had with my original Lookout release.

- Maybe you should get it out of the closet, oil it, put it back up, and see what happens.
- Those things were such disasters that even Ridgely stopped selling them.

Also makes my worried I could see the same issue with my Joe Street release...

- Are you SURE I can't get you to drill that hole?
- Joe was smart enough to take the most critical bend out of the equation.

No, but I must say my VG is harder to pull than when I got the glider. Not sure why.

Normal, inevitable sail shrinkage would be my best guess. The only two other possible explanations would be:

- The pulleys are wearing and degrading - but the chances of that are just about zilch 'cause they're designed for a lot of punishment in sailing applications and they're getting relatively no use or abuse whatsoever in a hang gliding VG system.

- You're getting older.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25435
Raunchy Day At The Ridge + Release Failure

Casey Cox - 2012/03/09 12:39:15 UTC

I only read a little of the thread above and the only thing I saw that I did not realize (if its true) is the tug pilot has more sensitivity of the glider if the pilot used a two point release. I would say maybe true but only for a veteran tug pilot. I have been pulled by good tug pilots but with not as many hours as a veteran and I do not know if they can feel the difference. I will ask this question to the best tug pilot I know and the original test pilot of the of the Dragon Fly in a couple months.

- This is pure, unadulterated bullshit. The tug feels two things as a consequence of what the glider's doing - pounds and direction. And neither of those is the tiniest bit dependent upon whether the glider's flying one point or two.

- What other delicately nuanced information are you thinking might me transmitted by a 250 foot length of Spectra?

- The best tug pilot you know isn't necessarily someone you wanna be asking questions for which the answer requires anything resembling a thought process. Very few of these morons are able to understand that:

-- a four hundred pound weak link on a glider isn't any more dangerous to the tug if it's on a solo glider than it is on a tandem

-- if the tug's weak link is four hundred pounds his weak link doesn't increase in strength a hundred pounds if the glider uses a five hundred

-- a glider with a 260 pound weak link is perfectly capable of killing a tug

-- if the tug only has a weak link above the tow ring he won't have a weak link if it blows and the bridle wraps

-- gliders get crashed and killed when tugs force them to use 130 pound Greenspot and use their release levers to execute good decisions in the interests of the gliders' safety

- If by the original test pilot of the Dragonfly you mean Bobby, he hits all of those categories.

I have to say this; my opinion...

Oh good! You have an OPINION! Just what hang gliding really needs. It's so desperately short of them as things are.

...is don't go looking for a new release when the pilot is the cause of the lockout.

Right.

- If a new pilot can't stay in position well enough to keep the tow PRESSURE from building up enough to overload his Lockout Mountain Flight Park Release he deserves to slam in and die.

- And really good pilots will never tow in thermal conditions which could cause them to get out of position enough to overload the Lockout Mountain Flight Park Release.

- Moron.

Portow may cause a lockout to escalate faster. I do not know.

Who cares?
- One:
-- and two point gliders lock:
--- out.
--- out at dizzying rates that make reaction time and equipment performance critical issues
-- point towing is more dangerous that two point towing.

So what more do we really need to know?

I was very stable on tow prior to trying protow. It may be a beginning pilot can tow as easily and safe beginning with protow as with a two point release...

No. He can't. NOBODY CAN. Just like nobody can fly better upright than he can prone.

...and selling a two point release is just another accessory a park makes money on.

The way the flight parks make money is to:

- Slap together a total piece of shit, tell everybody it's a great release, and charge an arm and a leg.

- Wait until it kills a few people.

- Slap together an even more total piece of shit, tell everybody it's an ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS release, charge another arm and leg, then ship along with an owner's manual that warns the proud new owner that it isn't designed and won't work for towing anything so if he's stupid enough to go flying with it his next of kin won't be able to sue anybody's ass off.

HOWEVER, I think when Bobby Bailey designed the current aero tow release, the reason for the bike handle was for leverage in CASE the tow line is in a bind.

Bobby Bailey never designed an aerotow release in his life. Bobby takes off-the-shelf components designed by somebody else for something else and coathangers them together. Then he puts the result up in the air and if he hasn't killed anybody after a half dozen tows he calls it an aerotow release and is hailed by one and all as a fucking genius.

He could have easily put a pull line on the release.

If he had he'd have used a stray bit of bungee cord he had lying around in the shop, that would've become the Industry Standard lanyard material, and there'd have been twenty years worth of raging debates about the best way to pull bungee cord lanyards to blow releases when people are locking out and the tow pressure is increasing.

And people who suggested leechline lanyards would be declared poison to this sport and permanently banned from all forums in every possible way imaginable.

I'm sure the bike release could be mounted on the base bar closer to the hands...

Yeah. Put it CLOSER to the hands.

British Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association Technical Manual - 2003/04

On tow the Pilot in Command must have his hand actually on the release at all times. 'Near' the release is not close enough! When you have two hands completely full of locked-out glider, taking one off to go looking for the release guarantees that your situation is going to get worse before it gets better.

That should be good enough.

...even though the cable is shorter than the LMFP release and most everyone puts the release on the down tube.

- And if you can't mount the lever on the basetube 'cause the wheels are in the way - hell, take 'em off. When was the last time you NEEDED the wheels anyway?

- Fuckin' morons.

When I used the bike release, I have simply hit the bike release with a karate chop.

What did you simply do when you last operated your VG system?

The protow barrel releases are in my peripheral vision.

Great! As long as you can see them in your peripheral vision it's really hard to imagine you'd have any trouble getting to them...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

...if the shit hit the fan - especially down low.

I like that due to I do not have to turn my head in anyway to look for the release, even if my finger comes out of the loop.

Yeah, when you're tracking straight behind the tug and level and everything's going great it's really reassuring to see those barrels...

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a 20-degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.

...right in front of you without having to turn your head.

I've only had to release fast one time while using the LMFP release and glad my finger was in the loop ready. I released as soon as I knew something was not right so I had time to even hit the bike release or protow.

- Good thing you got to it before the pressure started building up, huh?

- And because your a GOOD pilot and release quickly at the first sign of trouble you're ALWAYS gonna have a lot of safety margin with this equipment.

I had to use a barrel release once when the bike handle did not release on a tandem when the bike handle was too loose.

- You mean there was too much play in the cable - like this:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Axel Banchero - 2009/06/20 04:57:01 UTC

I just kept hitting the brake lever for a few seconds in WTF mode, and the instructor used the barrel release.

Or the velcro wasn't quite up to its usual level of perfection - like this:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

- What was your plan gonna be if the bottom end of the bridle had wrapped at the tow ring?

I have only pro towed a half dozen times.

Sounds like you've lost your amateur standing. Welcome to the big leagues!

1) dont' induce PIO, don't over control, keep shoulders center, small bumps with hips

Particularly when you're using the shit equipment that you're really afraid of - which is why you and everybody else are having this discussion once again.

2) when trying a new piece of gear, like protow, talk to pilot that has acutely used it with that glider (it may not matter much but subconsciously it gives the pilot more confidence).

I'd suggest talking to the pilots who've used it obtusely so you get a feel for the worst that can happen.

3) I think platform towing is easier than aero towing (I think the pilot PIO's less).

And the tension stays constant even if you do.

If you are having difficulty areo towing, find a park that has platform or scooter towing and see if you PIO less and to get a different perspective. I started flying by platform towing then went to aero towing with no problems and only PIO ed when I tensed up and over controlled.

That's my 3 cents.

PS: I will soon start platform towing only 1 mile from my house at the local airport. Life is good.

So if you get comfortable and skilled towing there's a significant reduction in the risk of flying shit equipment so now there's even less of a reason to look at the equipment Zack linked to. So now everyone can stop pushing the limit of his attention span and we can have yet another rerun of this idiot conversation after the next disturbing incident at altitude or fatal lockout a bit after launch - whichever comes first.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25435
Raunchy Day At The Ridge + Release Failure

Paul Edwards - 2012/03/09 14:07:04 UTC

Thanks for the input Hangskier. I'll give pro-tow a try someday. I might wait until I'm off my Sport 2 and onto something higher performance (if that ever happens).

I have noticed that when the tug pilot is in a hurry that the bar pressure on my Sport 2 can be significant even with VG set a bit over half (my standard VG on tow). The problem being if you have to exert a lot of force to hold the bar back your control inputs for everything become strained, less relaxed = less finesse and as a result the possibility of PIO increases.

cliver - 2012/03/10 19:19:29 UTC
Toronto

Protow + Linknife

I am flying a Litespeed 4S.
I have been using 1/2 VG.
It flies pretty fast without much bar pressure.

Protow works great on that glider - I just bought two linknife releases to help out.
I want to make a hand release loop so i don't have to let go of the bar.

- Your hand is gonna be - for all intents and purposes - fixed on the basetube.

- You can count on having to go to the stops with control movement in the kind of conditions which might necessitate an emergency release.

- That means you're gonna need to leave A LOT of slop in the lanyard so you don't slice yourself off tow whenever you need to get your left wing back down level.

- That means to take up all that slop and cut yourself loose you're gonna REALLY need to to let go of the bar anyway when the shit hits the fan - which happens to be the precise moment when you REALLY won't be wanting to let go of the bar (for the most excellent of reasons).

- You're not accomplishing anything - you might as well just stay with the barrels ('cept the Linknife is a whole lot more likely to actually work than that bent pin shit you're using).

- Look at Antoine's pictures and video:

http://www.kitestrings.org/post1561.html#p1561

- Your hands, head, and tow ring are all connected to your shoulders by your arms, neck, and bridle / release assembly respectively.

-- Your:

--- arms are long and will permit a lot of movement of your hands relative to your shoulders and you can count on needing to use it.

--- neck is short and doesn't permit much movement of your head relative to your shoulders and there's not much you're gonna be doing that necessitates a lot of head movement on tow anyway - unless you're flying in Australia and getting strafed by a Wedge-Tailed Eagle.

--- tow ring is always gonna be in a pretty fixed position straight in front of your shoulders - no relative movement worth mentioning.

-- Furthermore... You can put a pulley in the bridle configuration a short distance in front of a shoulder right under your head, run a lanyard from your teeth down to and through the pulley, and out forward to a release mechanism - a Linknife if that's what floats your boat - so you can leave your hands free to do the job they need to without interruption and really put a hurtin' on the relative movement and slop issues.

- A little tilt of your head and then you can stop worrying about lockout and start calculating if you're gonna have enough altitude to recover from the stall that nobody ever thinks about when they're talking about how easy it will be to use one of Ryan Voight's 130 pound Greenspot instant hands free releases.

- Any of that making any sense to you?

- Just kidding.

P.S. I wonder why Ryan hasn't yet chimed in on that thread promoting his 130 pound Greenspot instant hands free release.

Or Rooney either. Oh, right.

Rob Kells - 1986/05

TRUCK TOW - A PRELIMINARY IMPRESSION

Towing has in the past always been a much more dangerous proposition than foot launch for hang glider pilots. Jerry and Mike of Air Time Of Lubbock (ATOL) have made some great steps forward recently to make towing safer.

The truck launch they have developed allows for launches with airspeed already established for the pilot. The pilot is prone and holding onto the base tube at the time of launch, which eliminates the need of transition from upright to prone.

I feel that the ATOL folks have really done their homework over the two years it took to perfect this new system. Safety is the top priority, and they have done a very impressive job of conceptualizing and executing an innovative system. The winch and release hardware are clean and well engineered, and worked flawlessly on my test flights.

I would recommend that anyone interested in flat land towing take a close look at this system. It's the best I've seen.

John Moody - 2010/02/05 21:24:13
Tad,

A few days ago, I posted a note to the HHPA on how I thought we had a pretty good safety record overall. However, according to OSHA and the teachings of Industrial Safety, putting five guys in the hospital in ten thousand tows IS UNACCEPTABLE!

I mention this because two of the five guys were hurt badly - one quit flying after he healed and the other is paralyzed from the waist down for life! Both of these two unlucky fellows were flying brand new Wills Wing gliders and both crashed onto the concrete immediately after takeoff for the same reason - the nose line running from the glider to the release mechanism on the trailers pulled the front flying wires loose from the stupid tang WW used in those gliders. That is just one more example of bad engineering - the flying wires should have been positive-locking instead of the keyhole tang WW used. I do not forgive WW of either injury, but I remain firmly incensed THAT WW REFUSED TO RE-ENGINEER THEIR WIRE ATTACHMENT EVEN AFTER THE FIRST MAN ALMOST DIED! I was not directly involved with either tow, however, I made very sure WW understood exactly what happened after the first accident. The two accidents were a year or two apart and the gliders were not the same model, so WW had plenty of time to change the design before they crippled the second pilot. Of course, WW denied any responsibility for either accident!

Add that to your list of poorly engineered releases. There could still be gliders of those models out there and some poor sucker might get one and try towing it.

Later,
John

Steve Goldman - 2000/11
Pittsboro, North Carolina

In September 2000 Hang Gliding you published a safety advisory regarding the nose wire tang releasing during a platform tow of a Wills Wing Fusion. While I appreciate Wills Wing notifying pilots of this safety problem I truly resent what seems to me as Wills Wing rewriting history. As the pilot in the 1991 accident that resulted in the "lock" being added, I may be too sensitive about this and reading too much into it, but I just can't let this go without a response.

In the current warning Wills Wing says, "In June of 1991, following a second incident of this type, we redistributed the advisory, adding the warning that routing the line outside the "V" of the wires but behind the tang handle could also result in disconnect of the wires." A more accurate sentence would have added "recanting our previous advice." To quote from the June 1989 article that I used as advice, Wills Wing said, "To avoid this problem, the nose line should be either looped and cinched over the top of the keyhole tang and nose bolt, or it should pass completely outside and to one side of the nose wires." I was using the second recommendation when I had my accident. If I was a different type of individual I would have sued Wills Wing out of business over this bad advice, but I felt I knew what I was undertaking and I appreciated that they modified the design after my accident.

In the current advisory Wills Wing also says, "The critical consideration is that the nose line must be routed in such a way that there is no possibility that the line can push or pull forward on the tang, the tang handle, or the wires." Personally, I believe the setup I used when I had my accident met this requirement. In my opinion the keyhole tang and "lock" as they currently implement it (even with the rope routing currently recommended) is a low-probability accident waiting to happen during platform tows. Wills Wing does finally get around to some truth on this matter when they say, "We have limited knowledge of the range of different designs and procedures in use for platform tow vehicles." In other words, if you're platform towing a Wills Wing glider you're a test pilot since they are not into platform towing. They basically admit this when they report later, "However, experiments by those investigating the accident on site, which have been repeated by Wills Wing, have indicated that it is possible that a swiveling action of the nose tang during ground roll prior to launch could cause the safety lock (ha!) to be rotated..." In other words, we didn't actually bother to fix this problem in real-life platform towing situations until after we had another accident.

As far as the claim that there have only been three reported incidents of this type, this doesn't appear to be the case, although I don't believe this is some Wills Wing coverup. There have been more incidents but it seems there have only been three serious accidents and apparently only those have been reported to Wills Wing. I personally know of one other incident here in North Carolina (prior to my accident) and when I expressed my dismay and disappointment about the latest accident on the hang gliding e-mail list I got messages from pilots reporting three other incidents. In all cases the tang being released was noticed before the glider was released from the truck. Lucky for them.

P.S. I have my doubts that the USHGA will publish a letter critical of the leading U.S. hang gliding manufacturer and big Hang Gliding advertiser, but I would hope that the safety issue outweighs these concerns. After all, the USHGA is supposed to be a pilots' organization.

Jerry Forburger - 2001/01
Lubbock, Texas

In the words of Steve Goldman, "I just can't let this go without a response." My reference to his letter to the editor in the November 2000 issue of this magazine. Steve must have had a serious crash while towing his Wills Wing glider.

I don't know what kind of Wills Wing Steve was flying when he had his accident, but every Wills Wing that I've owned since my first SST had a placard that clearly stated that it was not to be towed. If Steve decided to tow his Wills Wing in spite of the warnings, then he was acting as a test pilot and should assume all associated risks. If he did not understand the possible risks he was facing as a result of his actions then he should probably get out of the test-pilot business.

Wills Wing has always been very straightforward with information and advisories. Wills Wing is a leader in pilot training and safe aircraft development, and they have always offered the flying community some of the best recreational flying equipment. To try to blame Wills Wing for his unfortunate lack of understanding is detrimental to hang gliding, Wills Wing, and to every innovative pilot in the country.

His threat to "sue them out of business" is a demonstration of the attitude that has permeated American society, that being, "It's not my fault - blame someone else." I have to wonder why Steve doesn't blame the people who taught (or didn't teach) him how to truck launch. They played a part in his misadventure. Or why not blame the people who built the tow system? They should share in Steve's lawsuit.

Besides, the glider didn't unhook the nose wire, the nose line did. Why not blame the guy who invented the nose line? I know the nose line inventor intimately, and he thinks Steve should stay at home to watch cartoons on the weekends and leave the test-pilot stuff to those who can deal with it.

John Moody - 2010/09/18 13:32:24

Whew!! Tad... Thanks for showing us these letters/articles.

In Houston, we are well aware of the WW wire tank tang problem. The first pilot it happened to plowed into the road. Awhile in the hospital and he pretty much recovered - but he never flew again. He was a great guy and friend and an aspiring pilot lost from our ranks. WW poo-poo'ed the event and made no effort to change their nose wire connection to make it fail-safe. The second guy it happened to will never walk again - or have a decent life at all. If you ever met him, the image of the wheelchair would be burned into your brain. WW poo-poo'ed that one too.

In industry, safety incidents are evaluated and the equipment is re-engineered wherever possible to make it impossible to repeat the event. I was/am furious that Wills blew me off when I told them they needed a design change. But then, WW folks did not work in industry like I did and they did not see their latest victim in the wheelchair, so perhaps I judge them too harshly. DUH.

I never heard about the North Carolina incident and I never saw Jerry's letter - I am glad you brought us both of these. The NC incident does not surprise me. Given the WW design, the accident was a forgone conclusion. However, the Forburger letter is quite a shock. I have known Jerry since 1976 and watched him practice taking off from a moving truck before he came up with the winch. That he would make such a callous and idiotic remark about flying and towing WW is mind boggling. To say "buy WW, but don't tow it" when the whole world is towing is just nuts. How the inventor of the payout winch could say it...???

I don't blame WW for the first crash - I blame them for the second one... and the third...

Jerry Forburger - 2008/08/15

I had just bet a good part of my families' future on a partnership in (of all things) a hang glider shop in (of all places) Heavener, Oklahoma. The anchor of that venture was the Wills Wing dealership.

Wills Wing Dealership Requirements/Guidelines - 2011/08/02

We at Wills Wing feel that the most important role of the dealer is to insure the safety of the retail customer and promote the safe growth of the sport by offering quality instruction and service. It is primarily on our determination of your ability to do that that we grant dealerships and corresponding discounts.

The responsibilities of a Wills Wing HANG GLIDER DEALER include:

A) Offering competent, safe instruction in the proper and safe use of hang gliding equipment.

B) Being able to access all relevant technical and support information regarding Wills Wing products.

C) Performing a thorough inspection and conducting a quality control flight check on each glider you sell prior to delivering it to the customer.

D) Review and completion of all items on the dealer glider delivery check list prior to delivering the glider to the customer.

E) Assembling, testing, and or adjusting each accessory item before delivering it to the customer.

F) Familiarizing each customer with the proper use of each product that you sell to that customer.

G) For each item that you sell, determining prior to delivery that the customer is qualified to use the product safely, withholding delivery of any item that the customer is not qualified to use safely, and providing the necessary training and instruction to the customer so that they will be able to use the product safely. As a matter of policy, you are prohibited from delivering any product to a pilot that does not possess the skills and knowledge required to use it safely.

H) Returning completed dealer glider delivery check lists to Wills Wing.

I) Maintaining a stock of service parts.

J) Complying with Wills Wing policies as listed and explained herein and in other dealer documents.

K) Having all business licenses necessary in accordance with the local laws in your area in addition to carrying a business listing in your local phone book.

L) Completing all questionnaires and surveys sent to you by Wills Wing.

M) We also encourage you to support your local Hang Gliding Association.

We determine dealer density on a case by case basis, based on how we feel we can best service our customers, support the dealer with an adequate existing or potential market of customers, and secure adequate market representation for our products.

Because our policies require that you personally familiarize each customer with the proper and safe use of each product you deliver, and ascertain that the customer is qualified to use the product safely, you will not be able to ship products to customers outside of your immediate area and remain in compliance with our policies. For the same reason, we will not drop ship items to your customers from the factory. Because we have granted this dealership based on area market considerations, and based on our evaluation of your personal ability to fulfill our policy requirements, your dealership is not transferable to another location, nor is it transferable to another person without prior approval from us.

We reserve the right to suspend or cancel dealership agreements at any time without advance notice at our discretion.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25435
Raunchy Day At The Ridge + Release Failure

Terry Ryan - 2012/03/12 03:32:24 UTC

For me, on my Sport 2, a ProTow setup is absolutely out of the question.

"Protow" isn't so much a setup as a lack of a setup.

I'd have to have the bar down around my waist.

Give it a try in smooth air. It's not as much of a big fucking deal as you think it is. (Unless you launch into something nasty - then it can be a HUGE fucking deal.)

It is my understanding that ProTow is only appropriate for topless wings with lots of VG.

- From whom did you get your "understanding"?

- Wills Wing gets major black marks for not having this information in your owner's manual but - if you look hard enough - here's what it says on their website:

Towing from only the shoulder attachments without a top release is generally referred to as "Pro tow". The Sport 2, U2s and Talons may be "Pro towed" without a top release, however this method is not as easy as using a two point release as described above. Towing without a top release will cause the base tube to be positioned much further back during tow, the glider will have increased pitch pressure, and lockouts are much more difficult to correct.

The last part of that last sentence is kinda stupid 'cause a lockout is - by definition - something that can't be corrected (and occasionally can't be survived).

So lots of us still need that keel attachment point AND a reliable release.

- EVERYBODY needs a keel attachment point when the shit really hits the fan.

- Ever wonder why - after twenty years of assholes like the ones at Quest perfecting aerotowing and hundreds of thousands of stupid discussions identical to the one you're having now - there's no such thing as a safe and reliable two point release from the industry mainstream and neither the industry mainstream nor USHGA is doing shit about it?

- Ever wonder why the mainstream industry...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.

The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.

That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.

Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.

...is actually actively suppressing advancement in towing technology every chance it gets?

- You assholes have totally fucking ignored the referral Zack made. If you or any other of those Jack Show dickheads slams in I will have so much less than zero sympathy for you.

- Ever wonder why the assholes at Wills Wing have never bothered to build a decent release into any of their gliders?

- Hope you're really enjoying your curved tips. How much good were they doing you when you were locking out, tugging on your Lockout Mountain Flight Park release that isn't warranted as suitable for towing anything, and waiting for your Wallaby weak link to notice that you were failing to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon) and break before you could get into too much trouble?

All I'm saying is .... make sure your equipment works, the first time, under three or four times normal load.

- You were flying a US Wills Wing glider at a US Flight Park Mafia facility with a release you purchased from a US Wills Wing dealership.

- The US regulations for aerotow releases are NOT:

Make sure your equipment works, the first time, under three or four times normal load.

- Do you have any fucking clue what "normal load" is? Just kidding.

- Do you think any of the Flight Park Mafia assholes has a fucking clue what "normal load" is?

- What asshole signed your AT rating?

- Don't you think you shoulda been taught what a "normal load" is before that asshole signed your AT rating?

- The US regulations for aerotow releases are:

A release must be placed at the hang glider end of the tow line within easy reach of the pilot. This release shall be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the weak link.

- That automatically outlaws the Quallaby bullshit with the lever on the downtube - that even most of you Jack Show douchebags have enough sense to be afraid of - 'cause there's clear documentation of it being lethally inaccessible when your life is dependent upon this mythical "easy reach".

- What are you using for a weak link? Just kidding.

- Why are you using that particular weak link? Just 'cause all the other stupid clones are?

- Do you have a fucking clue how that weak link translates to towline tens- sorry, pressure? Just kidding.

- You fly a Sport 2. Let's say you're at the minimal flying weight of the little (135) flavor of that glider - 189 pounds.

- You're flying a release that's locking up probably a good bit under one G.

- If we do the math for a maxed out 155 - 310 pounds - the most your Greenspot lockout preventer is allowing is under three quarters of a G. And you're locking up well before that

- Idiot.

- Three of you guys in that moronic thread are in Toronto (you plus Andrew and cliver). Ever hear of the great hang gliding...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT

Individuals such as Donnell Hewett, Dave Broyles, Lars Linde, Mike Robertson, Brad Kushner, Malcolm Jones, David Glover, Greg McNamee, Jan Alda, Alan Chuculate and Bill Moyes have also offered specific information either through their writing or by personal communication.

...and towing guru Mike Robertson - also in Toronto? How can y'all be this fuckin' dense with such an excellent flight school in your backyard?

Best air,
TR

You guys DEFINITELY don't wanna be flying in anything remotely similar to the best air. Stick to morning and evening sleds and you'll probably be fine.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25435
Raunchy Day At The Ridge + Release Failure

cliver - 2012/03/12 14:22:36 UTC

Which release?

For the love of God - anything but Joe's!!! Don't even consider, look at, think about, discuss, or acknowledge the existence of Joe's release. You always wanna go with a big machined chunk of metal when the opportunity presents itself. Complexity's only a bad thing when it's fulfilling some kind of actual function - like INcreasing mechanical advantage and efficiency.

Agreed about bars to the knees...

- He didn't say bar to the knees. He said:

...bar down around my waist.

- And it isn't gonna be down to his waist either - it's gonna be about mid chest.

...bar pressure and muscle cramps

Bullshit.

- The bar isn't back there 'cause you're holding it back there. It's back there 'cause you're being pulled through it.

- You're only holding enough pressure to trim to the speed of the climbing Dragonfly and only for the four minutes or so it takes to get to release altitude.

- That's NOTHING compared to what people do all the time blasting miles down ridges into strong crosswinds for the hour and a half it takes to get back to launch.

- Did you ever hear anyone complaining about the muscle cramps he got from holding all that brutal pressure on a one point Sport 2 tow?

The LS4 is sweet on tow - much less pressure when you need to go fast

How:
- fast do you need to go behind a Dragonfly?
- often do you vary that speed?

SteevRelease!

Fer sure!

Mike Bomstad

Everyone who lives dies, yet not everyone who dies, has lived. We take these risks not to escape life, but to prevent life escaping us.

You wanna keep these tows a bit challenging to prevent life escaping you. Keep those pins bent or side loaded and use 130 pound Greenspot so that you're right on the verge of popping off tow every moment of your launch and climb.

The tapered pin design is superior to the shackle.

OBVIOUSLY!!! What on Earth was Wichard thinking when they designed that spinnaker shackle? I'm sure that as soon as the sailboat people get wind of the SteevRelease you're gonna start seeing a lot of tapered pin design spinnaker shackles on a lot of your better racing boats.

By the way... When you tested the SteevRelease what kind of load to actuation force ratio did you get and how did that compare with the numbers you got when you tested the spinnaker shackle?

He is selling them too cheap right now - get them while they are!

Yeah! Just a hundred and twenty bucks Canadian from Grand Valley Hang Gliding:
http://www.hangfly.com/
And while you're there you might as well pick up a:

Courtland Green Spot Weak Link Small Roll

http://www.hangfly.com/apps/webstore/products/show/1919370

This is pretty much the standard weak link for aero towing

and will work great with your new SteevRelease. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), it will break before you can get into too much trouble.

And if they're out try giving Bryan a call. He's got a thousand foot spool of the stuff and probably won't be using much of it for a while.

Cheers

Cheers! (Idiot.)

Tad Eareckson wrote:You're only holding enough pressure to trim to the speed of the climbing Dragonfly and only for the four minutes or so it takes to get to release altitude.

While I know people who have towed S2s one-point without issue, I do have to say that the S2 has enough bar pressure that flying fast for any appreciable length of time gets tiring. Two weeks ago I took three aerotows to 3000' each. My triceps were sore for two days afterwards. It's one of the reasons I'm not crazy about towing one-point.

That said, that's towing behind a trike that flies faster than a Dragonfly.

Lighter bar pressure is as much an incentive for me to move up to a higher performing glider as better glide. I remember thinking how light this glider's was when I first got it, too...another sail shrinkage thing? Or maybe just the result of breaking two arms?

Zack

I think I've told you that I towed my HPAT 158 one point - just once (I think) - behind a Dragonfly. Think I had the VG on - and on that glider the VG is either full or off. Wasn't looking forward to it 'cause it trims nicely with the keel mounting pretty far forward but I was surprised at how little of an issue it was.

Did you wreck your arms flying one point or two?
What about VG?
I used to tow (two point) full VG when the tow wasn't too rough but I'd flick it off if I started getting kicked around enough to make me nervous.

Tad Eareckson wrote:Did you wreck your arms flying one point or two?

What about VG?

Two-point...I still haven't tried one yet (I will, but I always have an excuse...that time was a new site). VG was one half...maybe I should try more. Can't be any harder than towing the T2.

Zack