The Bob Show

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=884
The Bob Show

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/12/13 05:55:39 UTC

I've had to deal with your ... strong weak link theories...

Theories? Plural? Name two of them.

How 'bout telling us one or two of YOUR weak link THEORIES, motherfucker? 'Cause if you don't have at least one - and you DON'T, 'cause you have very little experience towing - then what the hell qualifies you to "deal with" ANYTHING in that department?

Here's my weak link "theory":

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.

and I'm fine with as high as I can go without overloading anything. And the anything is gonna be a properly engineered release so the 1.5 to 2.0 range which is in line with what sailplanes have been doing since the beginning of time and what the FAA mandates for hang glider aerotowing.

A few other weak link theories:

Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

A properly designed weak link must be strong enough to permit a good rate of climb without breaking, and it must be weak enough to break before the glider gets out of control, stalls, or collapses. Since our glider flies level with a 50 pound pull, climbs at about 500 fpm with a 130 pound pull, and retains sufficient control to prevent stalling if a weak link breaks at 200 pounds pull, we selected that value. Of course, a pilot could deliberately produce a stalled break at 200 lbs, just as he can stall a glider in free flight. But if he is trying to limit his climb rate and the forces exceed the break limit, the glider simply drops its nose to the free flight attitude and continues flying. If the weak link breaks (or should the towline break) at less than the 200 pound value, the effect is even less dramatic and controlled flight is still present.

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2018/11/07

A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

That's where you've had your one and only tow experience - tandem AT - and you didn't feel you had to deal with that theory so you're obviously OK with it.

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Quest Air Aerotow FAQ

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.

IMPORTANT - It should never be assumed that the weak link will break in a lockout.
ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem.

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTC

Now I don't give a shit about breaking strength anymore. I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC

It was already worked out by the time I arrived.
The reason it sticks?
Trail and error.

Every now and then someone comes along with the "new" idea of a stronger weaklink. Eventually, they scare themselves with it and wind up back with one that has a very proven track record. I mean really... no exaggeration... hundreds of thousands of tows.

Say what you will, but if you want to argue with *that* much history, well, you better have one hell of an argument... which you don't.

Jim Gaar - 2013/02/13 19:59:19 UTC

Why yes!

After 5 years as Safety and Launch Marshall for Adventure AirSports and towing (with a Dragonfly 582 BH) every type of wing class available on 3 different styles of carts and using Pro-tow and COM bridles and over 400 incident and accident free tows I feel it's pretty much the standard.

I would not/did not hesitate to assess each and every tow along with the conditions, experience of the towing pilot and wing type in confirming it's use.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC

I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.

Perfectly OK with all those 'cause 99.9 percent of the total douchebags you wanna recruit for your dictatorship are too. But Tad you gotta deal with 'cause he's a fringe element all the douchebags wanna get permanently silenced.

The nanosecond you take a stand on sane aeronautical theory...

Professor Henry Higgins - 1956/02/15

An Englishman's way of speaking absolutely classifies him,
The moment he talks he makes some other Englishman despise him.

And that'll never change so neither you nor your alternative hang gliding association will never change.

Team Kite Strings. We're the only folk on the fuckin' planet who can breathe a word anywhere about hang and para gliding weak links without getting immediately dismembered 'cause we're the only ones on the fuckin' planet who've been making sense and consistent starting over a dozen years ago.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=683
Due Process for Pilots - Mike Jefferson Case

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/07/12 14:13:42 UTC

From hanggliding.org (http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22492):

INFORMATION
You are not authorised to read this forum.

OK, on page 15 "This Just In", it says that a Michael Jefferson is losing his instructor and both Tandem ratings.

Also Claude Fiset is losing his Instructor and Tandem ratings, as well as his P4 rating.

I'm guessing they did some unsafe and/or illegal stuff. I hadn't read anything about it, and since it's my understanding that rating revocation is a rare event it's gotten my curiosity up, although it ain't any of my business "inquiring minds want to know".

I'm gonna do it...

Mike was taken down by the tyrannies of evil! He did break the rules and the official statements have been hidden as much as possible. If you know Mike and how to reach him you should reach out to him and try to offer some support and find out the truth!

A HG conspiracy between competing schools and the power that the upper levels of the USHPA leaders abuse.

I'm sure that there are now snipers and assassins on their way to take me out as I type the rest of this.

I, and those that know the truth, know that Mike Jeffersons lively hood was striped from him. He was given unfair and unreasonable punishment for breaking the rules. Ask him and ask anyone that knows, and you will find out that he stands no chance of getting his ratings back if he has to fight this fight on his own. He needs the help of the public eye, public opinion, and backing of those that are willing to stand for a just cause, if he is to win his ratings, and lively hood back.

Bluntly... Mike Jefferson was punished for becoming the #1 most successful HG school in the Bay Area. The opposing powers let Mike hang himself and when he did, they made it such a public spectacle that the "Sheep" followed and supported the unjust punishment without question.

This finally comes to the public forum after almost 1 yr... it goes to show how quiet and rushed things were by those that were the executors.

I will not argue any of this out on this forum. I encourage EVERYONE on this board to question the "Mike Jefferson" conspiracy and find out the truth on their own. Go underground, find out the truth, spread the word to more, once there is more knowledge and strength, we should make our actions known to the community and publicly demand reinstatement of his ratings, on this forum AND by letters (By each one of us) to the USHPA Regional directors and Executive board members.

Feel free to PM me and I will point you in the right direction. But this will be the last I speak of this on this forum until we are ready to put our plan into action.

The USHPA is supposed to be a NonProfit working for the members. If enough of us stand together then by definition things should be changed

I agree with Wing Man's comments here. I was on the USHPA Board at the time of the revocation. From what I could tell, it was rammed through the Board. I objected that there was no one there to present the other side. My objection was ignored. I ended up abstaining because I didn't know the other side of the story.

Since there was no actual evidence presented, right?

USHPA is no longer an organization of pilots. It's an organization of Directors ... funded by pilots.

And now it's just a bunch of lackeys doing whatever the fuck u$hPa's non pilot corporate lawyer tells them to.

While Jack Axaopoulos (sg) has built a nice forum on hanggliding.org...

It was NEVER a nice forum. It was a shit-hole on Day One and it's been going downhill ever since.

...he's ended up doing a disservice to the hang gliding community by the way he killed the HGAA and is stifling the growth of the US Hawks through his bans and gag orders.

How do you know? I consider:

http://www.hanggliding.org/rules/
Rules - Hang Gliding Org

HangGliding.Org Simplified Rules and Policies

* No posts or links about the toxic Bob Kuczewski, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material or organizations. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable. They have been banned over and over again by multiple sites and organizations.

to be top notch advertising for Kite Strings.

USHPA won't change until it gets some meaningful competition. It's a shame that Mike Jefferson had to pay for this.

Good job, Bob. Maybe not guilty until voted guilty by an overwhelming majority of u$hPa Directors. Or until voted an obstacle to making The Bob Show a safe place for people of varying ages to visit by one hundred percent of the Bob Show members eligible to cast a vote. But now you run background and fingerprint checks for all your members with unrestricted posted and personal messaging privileges so you can one hundred percent guarantee that any of your registered and visiting people of younger varying ages will be totally good to go for overnighters with any of your registered people of older varying ages.

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3840
[TIL] About Tad Eareckson

Bob Kuczewski - 2013/03/10 18:20:34 UTC

Eventually (and for reasons that I won't full disclose here), it became necessary to ask Tad to leave the US Hawks forum, and he is currently the only person who's been completely banned from the US Hawks.

Appreciate the honor, Bob. Constantly reassures me that I'm doing things right.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2624
President Trump

Bob Kuczewski - 2016/11/09 07:54:02 UTC

Make America Great Again

Pick a year, Bob. Tell me when - and for whom - it was great.

2017/07/05 05:44:51 UTC - last Bob post in thread
2018/08/26 02:34:33 UTC - last post in thread

Reminds me a lot of:

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1252
Bill Cosby speaks his mind

Bob Kuczewski - 2013/04/26 05:37:14 UTC

Bill Cosby is a national hero for trying to save so many wasted lives. Go Bill, Go!!

You really know how to pick 'em, Bob.

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3840
[TIL] About Tad Eareckson

Bob Kuczewski - 2013/03/10 18:20:34 UTC

Eventually (and for reasons that I won't full disclose here), it became necessary to ask Tad to leave the US Hawks forum, and he is currently the only person who's been completely banned from the US Hawks.

[Tad Eareckson]

Bob Kuczewski - 2012/01/16 21:34:14 UTC

Look Tad,

My offer still stands.

And here we still are a wee bit shy of seven years later.

I suggest that we back down from trying to destroy each other and move on with trying to improve the sport of hang gliding.

The sport of hang gliding CAN'T be improved on anything much beyond the individual level. Look at the fuckin' trends in the articles, discussions, posts over the decades. u$hPa keeps getting better and more efficient at identifying and dealing with the threats of intelligence and competence whenever it sees them threatening to rear their ugly heads.

There are many ways we can work together to benefit the sport.

I mostly want it destroyed. It's doing it itself and I'm more than happy helping move it along its chosen path.

Neither of us will get everything that we want from that arrangement, but we'll each get more than we're getting now.

I'm doing way better getting what I want than you are getting what you want.

As far as returning you to the US Hawks forum, I don't see that happening as long as you remain an unrepentant child molester.

- And if YOU don't see that happening as long as I remain an unrepentant child molester it's a total no-brainer that it won't happen. Right Bob?

- Yeah. I wouldn't measure up very well to all the sterling individuals who currently constitute your membership. Nary a detectable issue with respect to any of them.

That's both a moral and legal judgement on my part...

- And your part is the only one that's ever gonna count for anything.

- Oh.

-- A MORAL judgment.

--- Please tell us what specific religion you use to define your morality for you. That way we'll all know what we're permitted and forbidden to do and say to remain Bob Show members in good standing and see what you're using selectively to manipulate your dictatorship into the form you desire it to be.

--- Yeah Bob. I knew DECADES ago that this was a Judeo-Christian religious morality thing rather than anything having to do with any documentable harm to any individual.

-- A LEGAL judgment. Maybe you can state the Federal and/or State statutes relevant to your actions. Maybe give your buddy Tim Herr a buzz to make sure you've got all your ducks lined up properly.

- Shove your moral and legal judgments back up your ass.

...and I take sole responsibility for that decision.

- You, God, the US Constitution - in that order.

- Why? Too fuckin' gutless to open it up to any of your membership beyond the several of your handpicked Fake Board members?

- Exactly what is it you're thinking that you taking sole responsibility for that decision is likely to cost you? Beyond what my team can do to you anyway?

When the US Hawks has a functioning Board of Directors...

...and the iceboating season has opened up in Hell...

...you're welcome to appeal that decision with them...

- Fuck that. If a functioning Board of Directors didn't get down on their fuckin' knees apologizing to me for your sleazy treatment of me I wouldn't give any of them the time of day.

- Seven years worth of justice denied as you prevent a functioning Board of Directors from ever forming. So when was the last time you flew Torrey?

...but I don't see me changing my mind.

Something we can agree on. Common ground.

If you want to "go to war" with me over that non-hang-gliding issue...

EXACTLY. It was a NON-HANG-GLIDING-ISSUE - and something you are no way in hell qualified to address and none of your goddam fuckin' business.

...then that's your call.

Yep.

I tend to fire back when fired upon, and I don't want to hear any complaining if things get personal in those exchanges.

I'm trembling in my boots, Bob. You used your nuclear option and it either fizzled or blew up in the silo - depending on how one chooses to assess things. So what are you gonna do now? No more Mister Nice Guy? Start fighting dirty?

Again, you get to make the decisions.

- Again, yep.
- Which is better than all but one Bob Show member gets to do - or ever will.

I'm just letting you know what lies ahead down both of those paths.

Seven years now. So both of us now know what lay down the path I chose. Makes me nauseous thinking about any other options.

The olive branch is extended. I hope you'll accept it.

I can certainly see why you would have.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3434
Two Dead at Torrey - Paragliding Collision (March 9, 2019)

Joe Faust - 2019/03/10 18:12:55 UTC

Media and forums' status to the moment:
== sg : no report
== oz : Ben Reese ... general, two links.
== ks : no report...

Kite Strings really isn't all that interested in midairs - 'specially ones involving paragliders. Doesn't have shit to do with the mission.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=599
Banned of Brothers

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/02/16 17:37:55 UTC

People who have been banned from: kitestrings.org (operated by Tad Eareckson)
Request for actual list pending
- Bob Kuczewski
- Sam?
- Jim?
- OP?

Sam Kellner
Bob Kuczewski
Christopher LeFay
Lin Lyons
Orion Price
Matt Pruett
Jeff Roberson

Fourteen percent of those motherfuckers:

- participated in a massively incompetent truck tow operation which killed the dope on the rope

- is the Emperor-For-Life of the US national organization which green-lit a massively incompetent truck tow operation which killed the dope on the rope and eliminated him from further Bob Show participation

- came within several seconds of being fatally pile driven on state-of-the-art equipment by a massively incompetent tow training operation which shortly thereafter fatally pile drove one of its Hang One students yet remains supportive of aforementioned operation

- was saved from a near certain fatal unhooked launch by a word from his assistant yet still refuses to execute hook-in checks

- died alone in his apartment of an overdose of the medical complications to which he'd become addicted subsequent to an imperfectly timed landing flare

- has developed superb pro towing skills

- declared himself to be done here and has been working diligently on getting his LeverLink hang glider roll control authority multiplier airborne in the three and a half years since

Kite Strings is "operated" by a minimum of three individuals - Zack, Yours Truly, Steve.

Who the hell is "Jim"?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=884
The Bob Show

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/12/13 05:55:39 UTC

I've had to deal with your profanity, your attacks on other members, your strong weak link theories, your lift and tug theories, and your hopelessly long and repetitive posts.

My strong weak link theories. Right up there with my profanity, attacks on other members, lift and tug theories, and hopelessly long and repetitive posts. I only have one weak link theory...

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.

Same one sailplanes have had since the beginning of time. And, oh yeah, you've got a conventional glider rating. All conventional gliders are towed up, you've towed up at Torrey. So what weak link rating were you using and what were you using it for? To keep you from getting into too much trouble? Like when you went up on that tandem hop with...

17-1821
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/962/40373978690_9aef9ff7ca_o.png


...Malcolm?

I've never heard you breathe a single word about having to put up with any asshole's weak weak link theories. So do me a favor and quote me five or ten words from any one, where, towing flavor, time period on weak weak link "theory" that makes the slightest degree of SENSE.

And yeah... I DO know you're never under any circumstances gonna engage in an honest exchange in which you know beforehand you're gonna get demolished. So go on ahead and spew something about how very little experience you have with towing. (And thus how fundamentally incompetent you were when you were getting your sailplane ratings.)

P.S. That above attack on me - about thirteen and a half months before the AT game changing Zack Marzec inconvenience fatality - sounds a helluva lot like Jack's attacks on you.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3053
Joe Faust banned from hanggliding.org

Bob Kuczewski - 2018/09/13 21:04:29 UTC

Jack Axaopoulos (sg) deleted Joe's last post and banned him in the USHGRS topic (now in the "basement") at hanggliding.org:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=36135

Read through that topic and see if you can figure out where Joe did anything to get banned. You'll find that Joe was staying right on topic. Jack was violating Jack's own rules by mentioning me, but Joe didn't take the bait. Jack banned him anyway.

Moderator's Note (January 6th, 2019): The banning of USHGA founder Joe Faust from hanggliding.org has been a seismic event. It has spawned a large number of related topics and posts. The following related links (ordered by date) have been added for the reader's convenience:

2018/09/01 16:49:18 UTC - Jack Axaopoulos (sg) changes another post on hanggliding.org
2018/09/13 20:58:50 UTC - USHGRS (page 6)
2018/09/13 21:04:29 UTC - Joe Faust banned from hanggliding.org
2018/09/17 04:38:19 UTC - Joe Faust
2018/11/25 16:35:20 UTC - Wall of Shame in banning of Joe Faust from hanggliding.org
2018/11/27 19:12:03 UTC - Jack Axaopoulos Meltdown
2018/12/01 09:12:28 UTC - Oh the Irony
2018/12/05 17:50:35 UTC - Report on "Wall of Shame" topic
2018/12/06 21:04:57 UTC - Hang gliding is in more trouble than I thought
2018/12/18 04:06:08 UTC - Theory of mind
2018/12/20 03:55:00 UTC - Banning - Commentary
2018/12/21 19:07:02 UTC - Joe's reinstatement in HG.org effort

Jack Axaopoulos (sg) deleted Joe's last post and banned him in the USHGRS topic (now in the "basement") at hanggliding.org:

How shockingly and uncharacteristically unfair of Jack.

Read through that topic and see if you can figure out where Joe did anything to get banned.

Read through:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14312
Tow Park accidents

and see if you can figure out where T** at K*** S****** did anything to get banned - motherfucker.

You'll find that Joe was staying right on topic.

See above.

Moderator's Note (January 6th, 2019): The banning of USHGA founder Joe Faust from hanggliding.org has been a seismic event. It has spawned a large number of related topics and posts.

- Anything NOT on The Bob Show?

- Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Joe is the Wilville Wright of hang gliding. Should that entitle him to more outrage concerning his banning than some Hang Zero with five training hill flights from last weekend making legitimate posts on The Jack Show?

Furthermore...

NOBODY was the Wilville Wright of hang gliding. The collective intellectual firepower of the entire founding movement never held a candle to Wilville - couldn't ever even apply to hang gliding the bulletproof aeronautical theory the brothers had developed around seven decades prior. And that foundational incompetence IMMEDIATELY opened control of the sport to all manner of sleazy snake oil salesmen. And look at the state of affairs now near half a century later and make an argument to the contrary.

That foundational incompetence and gross negligence has translated to something like ninety percent of the untold hundreds of fatalities and untold thousands of career ending crashes which have helped a lot in bringing the sport down to where we see it now.

And name some places to go at which one CAN learn and understand hang gliding as a legitimate flavor of aviation, where physics trumps opinion. Gimme a link to a site other that Kite Strings in which a hang glider weak link has the same rating and purpose that it does for a sailplane.

Further furthermore...

The banning of USHGA founder Joe Faust from hanggliding.org has been a seismic event.

WHO THE FUCK GIVES A RAT'S ASS???

You've got at least a dozen topics on the issue over in your dump. As far as I'm concerned nobody should ever post anything in your ol' buddy's dump - 'cept maybe for taking a head shot at one of his pet assholes who's set himself up really well. Wanna kill the worlds largest hang gliding coffee shop and its owner but good? Don't post anything of interest or at all over there. Encourage others to not post there. Fifty percent of its current content is Chris McKeon asking about the best helmet to use for crashing into a boulder headfirst at sixty miles per hour. Anything of any actual interest Jack locks down and sends to his Free Speech Zone where he's the only one who can see it.

Pretty much ditto for Davis. Both dumps have been majorly intellectually castrated for at least the past decade.

Jack's doing to the worlds largest hang gliding community exactly what u$hPa's doing to US hang gliding. Stop trying to slow him down.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=599
Banned of Brothers

Michael Grisham - 2019/03/16 18:17:58 UTC

Little Scottie and Bobbie are living in a make believe world.

The US Fantasy Hawks.

Scott C. Wise - 2019/03/16 20:01:46 UTC

I seem to remember a couple months ago that someone claimed to have an issue with another member of the US Hawks. Four people, besides the person being accused, considered the claim and found that it lacked a valid basis. So, four reasonable people (discounting the accused) found that the "claim" made by this member was unfounded.

That could be worded differently as this - "That member's claim was not based in reality. Perhaps it even originated in a make believe world."

The lead off quote, above, uses the word "are". It does not say "may be" or "in my opinion, could be". Mr. Grisham, I would like you to define exactly who "Scottie and Bobbie" are. I don't want to make any erroneous assumptions.

If you more specifically identify these two named individuals and they are members of the US Hawks, then what you are saying could be taken as another negative and disparaging statement. Such statements don't tend to lead to positive exchanges.

Personally, I've used the name little Mikey Grisham because I felt that I was dealing with a person/adult(?) that was behaving more like 4 year old throwing a tantrum. If a member of the US Hawks can't manage to act like a mature, respectful adult, then perhaps a title befitting a screaming infant is a better fit.

Wow Bob. Looks like you actually DO have little people of varying ages who need to be protected from personal messaging communications with unrepentant child molesters. Good call.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=599
Banned of Brothers

Bob Kuczewski - 2019/03/16 20:40:44 UTC

Michael.Grisham,

You seem to be living in a make believe world where the banning of pilots does not cause them any pain or harm. In the real world, there's no doubt that Jack's banning of Joe Faust has caused Joe both pain and harm.

It may be true that Jack might have a "legal" right to cause such pain and harm to Joe. No one has seriously argued against such a legal "right". We have, however, argued against those who support Jack's abuses by propping up Jack's web site with posts that do not at least include a protest of Jack's mistreatment of Joe.

Is that clear enough?

- Tell me where Joe was after my sleazy bannings by Jack Axaopoulos, Davis Straub, Bob Kuczewski.

- If you post ANYTHING other than the attacks I just mentioned you're propping up Jack's fake coffee shop. Trolls don't HAVE TO BE isolated individuals posting on forum topics. They can totally own and control the venues. And that's the case on any glider forum you wanna name save for this one - in which control is shared by just about every member who's made a positive contribution to anything. STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS.