landing

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13745
Good News vs Sad News

NMERider - 2009/10/01 22:31:04 UTC

We had a Sylmar pilot die from massive head injuries last summer when he got drilled into the ground by sink while he was still prone. His helmet covered head struck a boulder.

And BTW - I cannot rotate my Rotor Kickass harness fully upright but I can pull on plenty of speed by merely keeping both hands on the base tube. Not one up and one down but both hands. If I get drilled by sink at the last second at least the first thing to hit won't likely be my head. In my cocoon harness I can go upright with hands on the DTs and easily get my T2 over 40 mph.

IIRC - Tad has already worn out his welcome on the Oz Report over his AT release mechanism, and so it seems he has come here to preach his gospel of safety according to Tad. The prize of course will either be delivered by the HMS Beagle or can be found on the Gallapagos Islands.

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1099
Tragedy in the L/Z

Joe Greblo - 2008/08/30 03:40:21 UTC

Jeff Craig was killed today when he crashed on approach to landing near the Kagel LZ. The accident occurred at around 15:20 during a low approach into the wash LZ. He struck a boulder in the riverbed and sustained serious injuries. Club members arrived on scene quickly and Alex Wright and Foster Winter administered CPR until paramedics arrived. He was pronounced dead at the scene.

The exact cause of the accident is not known as some witnesses said that it appeared that Jeff simply did not let the bar out as he toward the rocks. It was estimated that he hit at over 30 mph by one Hang Four witness.

Bullshit, Jonathan.

As we've already discussed...

http://www.kitestrings.org/post3040.html#p3040

...he didn't get drilled by sink. He fucked up his approach and came up way short. It's fuckin' moronic to suggest that being drilled by sink is a reason somebody came up significantly short of the Kagel - or any other - LZ. A gust front... Yeah. Sink... No. It's never happened and never will.

And if somebody's that hurting in the approach department it wouldn't come as a terrible shock to find out that he wasn't totally up to snuff in other more demanding stuff - like the Hang Three stunt landing requirements.

And he wasn't any more prone than any of you other foot land fanatic assholes from Grebloville is at some point on final or before. Neither Joe nor anybody else says anything about him being prone. And if he had been all you assholes would've been having exactly the same kind of field day that all the Davis Linkers had when Robin Strid was killed because his Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey Release jammed at normal towline tension.

He'd been upright with his hands on the downtubes gearing for a foot landing just like everybody else who's been brainwashed by his instructors on the issue of safely landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place. It's virtually unimaginable that he wasn't.

You had a Sylmar pilot die from massive head injuries so OBVIOUSLY he must've been flying prone, right? If he'd have been geared for a foot landing he'd have just broken a leg.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29701
Flair timing is crucial

NMERider - 2013/08/20 20:02:17 UTC

In 2008 a pilot was killed at Sylmar when he flew face first into a boulder doing essentially the same thing that was done here.

Goddam right.

This is how Mel's fucked up landing starts out:

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http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3716/14244567296_d973fe2608_o.png


This is how it ends up:

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http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/14267272604_483764a8a7_o.png


And here's what happens in between:

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http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5159/14264367601_5bd182d16c_o.png

42-45822
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2924/14287862033_13244c8362_o.png

43-45823
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3694/14081126537_8b2dae3d16_o.png

44-45824
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45-45825
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3761/14287859283_7da95ffb91_o.png

46-45901
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2937/14081080220_373f64f01d_o.png

48-45903
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2912/14081028699_5a4bff160a_o.png

49-45904
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3771/14081121287_b0edca7322_o.png


Virtually ANY fucked up landing is gonna end up with the flyer head or face first - regardless of how it starts out and/or the intentions of the flyer. But attempted standup landings are just about ALWAYS gonna end up worse 'cause:
- only total morons attempt them
- control authority totally sucks at the beginning of the period at which things start going south due to:
-- pilot error
-- Mother Nature throwing a curveball
-- some mix of the above
- the head starts up higher and picks up more kinetic energy rotating down and forward
- the hands are trapped on the downtubes and thus the arms can't be used defensively

45-45825
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3761/14287859283_7da95ffb91_o.png


Put a boulder where the front end of that glider's gonna be in the next frame and what do you think the outcome's gonna be - regardless of what he is or isn't using for a helmet?

And lemme remind you that on what was likely the last flight of your hang gliding career...

16-20815
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7005/13650557873_b1f5375434_o.png


...your INTENT was to land on your feet with your hands on the downtubes. We're not seeing much in the way of wheels...

06-03913
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7045/13650619613_3722a0137c_o.png


...at any point in that video.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31294
How is NME ????

Aldpal - 2014/05/24 05:22:05 UTC
SoCal

I don't know if Jon has been following any HG threads lately, as I have not seen him posting anything recently. I don't think he will mind me reporting that I took him up for a ride in my Grob last week for his first taste of airtime since his incident.

We were planning on a short hour flight of ridge lift at Elsinore, but ended up doing 3.5 hours diving down from 9000 MSL from the South Towers only because I had other commitments. He had the stick and rudder ninety percent of the time, and was flying very coordinated after the first hour, so I would say he is still infected with the flying bug, and would be surprised if he does not eventually try to get back to HG, and possibly continuing with sailplanes.

Here is a shot of him from a flight we did prior to the accident:

Yeah?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

NMERider - 2013/02/19 22:56:19 UTC

...and I don't want to die if I can avoid it based upon what I have gathered for myself from portions of this thread.

I can't speak for anyone else but my takeaway so far:

1 - If I am under aerotow while too low to safely deploy my reserve and the tug suddenly slows and climbs rapidly leaving the line slack I must make a conscious decision regarding just how much I am willing to push out and attempt to take up the slack and climb even with the tug. I must be cognitively aware of the risk of coming off of tow (for any reason) and possibly entering an accelerated stall too low to deploy with an upset or broken glider and possibly in proximity to the turbulence that may have thrust the tug upward.

2 - I will not expect a weak link system to save me from a lock-out.

3 - I will appreciate that it is the tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of any so-called weak link system and not mine.

4 - I will be prepared for a loss of towing thrust (for any reason) at any point during the tow operation.

- What did was your tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of your so-called weak link system?

- Was his so-called weak link heavier than yours?

- Were your so-called weak links tested and certified for breaking strengths and tolerances or did you just ask some total fucking douchebag like Russell Brown or Dr. Trisa Tilletti what he assumed they'd consistently break at?

- How many tries did it take you...

14-03123
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http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5529/14422573378_5385a9a99a_o.png
19-03703

...to get to workable altitude and were all the relights free the way they are in hang gliding?

- How much of an issue was the temporary loss of control you experienced when took your hands and feet off the controls to release?

- How long does it take to velcro a sailplane release system into place?

- When you landed back at the airport what technique did you use to practice for an emergency landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place? Whipstall or drag chute?

NMERider - 2014/05/24 18:25:31 UTC

Thanks for the well-wishes. I've been pretty sick and run down for many years leading up to this accident...

To this WHAT?

...and my condition has been getting much worse lately.

Gee, I'd thunk that it would've gotten a whole lot better.

My neck has been pretty achy and I see the neurosurgeon in a week or so for a status report.

It was a challenge trying to coordinate the control on Alan's sailplane and I did a lot of fishtailing. It was good to do some ridge soaring and thermalling over familiar terrain.

I've been flying an RC sailplane locally but tipping my head up has been hurting my neck so I have to postpone that.

I've decided to keep a low profile since February and rarely ever post anything. If I'm very lucky I'll recover enough to fly my Falcon again one day but it probably won't be for a very long time.

Yeah. IF you're VERY LUCKY you'll recover enough to fly your FALCON again ONE DAY - but it probably won't be for a very long time. And IF that day comes in a very long time you're probably not gonna be able to fly your Falcon for a very long time. Sounds real promising.

This guy:

02-0609

07-0913

11-1118


didn't get hurt - I'm pretty sure - anywhere NEAR as badly as you did and the pain was too much to allow him to sustain a comeback. You're gonna have a lot of pain from this one for the rest of your life and even if you recover enough to fly a hang glider it won't be any fun. And if it isn't any fun there's no point in flying a hang glider.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31294
How is NME ????

K C Benn - 2014/05/25 22:19:50 UTC
Ogden

Never give up hope JD and remember "GOD" performs miracle's .

It would be a fuckin' miracle if the average Jack Show douchebag could figure that the plural of "miracle" doesn't have an apostrophe in it and there's no space between the last word in a sentence and the period.

I am still praying for you.

You do that. Even if it doesn't do shit to help Jonathan maybe it will be enough to inspire God to send us...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:51:12 UTC

Ok, here's something to chew on, while we're on the topic.
It's not going to taste nice, but it's the god's honest truth.

It's not going to be nice because it's an affront to ego... which goes over like a lead balloon, but again... too bad, it's the truth.

See, the "everyone's opinion is valid" stuff is for the birds.
No. We don't consider everyone's opinion on these topics.

...a backup Messiah to be available in the unthinkable event that his first one shouldn't survive another unhooked launch or the kind of inexplicable freak accident that took his buddy out at the beginning of last year.

Falcon ? No the new T-3 with a drogue chute landing safely in a small field after a 200 mile XC flight sounds more like it

Yeah. Jonathan needs a drag chute to land safely in a small field about the same way Pro Toad Zack Marzec needed a Rooney Link to protect him from a dangerously high angle of attack going into a monster thermal.

I don't know exactly what it is you're praying for but it might be a good idea to back off from it for a while.

[Steve Davy]

He'd been upright with his hands on the downtubes gearing for a foot landing just like everybody else who's been brainwashed by his instructors on the issue of safely landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place. It's virtually unimaginable that he wasn't.

Perhaps he was prone and misjudged his altitude like this guy:

http://vimeo.com/1378063


Go to:
http://www.flytandem.com/accident/index.htm
Click 2008, then click 7-19-08 for a report.

[Tad Eareckson]

Nice find.

I don't think either one of them misjudged altitude in the final critical seconds - I think both of them were partially/critically clueless about landing.

The report on this one - just eleven days before Jeff Craig - is pretty much what I'd say. And I watched and made my assessment before reading.

His approach is actually pretty nice looking - 'cept it's way the fuck too low and slow. Leaves the bar out as he descends into wind shadow and gradient with a bit of an upslope to deal with. Totally begging for it and totally inevitable.

No such thing as too much altitude and speed until you're really committed on final.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt - which I probably shouldn't 'cause the probability that he isn't someone I already despise or would/should if I knew him is pretty microscopic - I'm glad it was just his ribs and nose rather than his neck.

Ain't it great the degree of hatred that's unloaded on anyone who insists on anything heavier than a single loop of 130 pound fishing line to use behind a Dragonfly while nobody raises an eyebrow a millimeter when a solid Hang 1.2 perfects his flare timing and takes the wheels off the basetube.

If Jeff Craig was prone with his hands on the basetube, like this guy - which I doubt for reasons I've expressed - he was also too slow do anything but crash into what was in front of him, like this guy. Nobody with enough skill to run off of Kagel and line up with the LZ is gonna be too stupid to fly into a boulder he's capable of popping over. And nowhere in a report is that mentioned as an option.

We can't worry about bullshit like this beyond:
- debunking the kind of crap assumptions, conclusions, inferences Jonathan was spewing
- looking at the assholes who signed ratings and cleared these people to fly in these environments

Somebody who's supposed to be able to consistently land in a smallish circle surrounding a traffic cone or on a narrow two hundred foot strip can't set it down ANYWHERE on a reasonable primary LZ in non life threatening conditions... Tough shit. That's the fundamental problem that needs to be addressed before we get into anything more subtle.

[Tad Eareckson]

P.S. In the span of eleven days two gliders at Kagel:
- come up short on the primary; AND
- slam in real hard (without cutting lossses and going to Plan B)

First one is hospitalized for four days and a reasonable pair of wheels WOULD have mitigated the severity but he doesn't even have placebo wheels.

Second one is killed instantly.

Really great job you LA guys are doing. Keep it up.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.flytandem.com/accident/index.htm
7-19-08 3:55 PM

Local Intermediate-* HG pilot flying a topless is barely making the field. Probably not stalled but likely within a few mph above stall he's just entering the field flies the basetube into the ground, while still prone and hands on the basetube. The sudden hard whack has the pilot injured with several broken ribs and several stitches in his nose, and lands a 4 day hospital stay.

The approach didn't have a defined downwind base and final which would have allowed more options to modify the energy, with low... turning a shorter pattern and high... widening the pattern. Instead it's a long 25 second base entry. There is little option to modify the pattern if he's low.

Fuck the pattern. I'd say at six seconds prior to impact he could've easily turned that one into a nonevent.

In this case he was low. Part way through the long base entry leg he does a bit of an s-turn which puts him even lower.

So? That's only an issue if he needs to land in the field. Since he threw away the option of a wheel landing before he pulled out of the driveway it doesn't matter too much where he stops the glider.

He's just arriving at the start of the field where the downhill approach apron changes to the flat LZ.

Somewhat loose definition of "field" you're operating under.

It is hard to tell how much extra speed he had at the point of impact but it's either he had a few mph extra speed and simply flew the base tube into the ground...

Yeah.

...or perhaps he should have transitioned to the upright position a couple of seconds before the impact and also concentrated on getting level and initiating his landing flare.

Who really gives a fuck? This is little more than lipstick on a pig.

Wheels would have probably helped a lot.

Do ya think?
- Name some sane landing scenarios when wheels would probably NOT help a lot.
- Were the assholes who watched him launch unaware of the potential for wheels to be able to help a lot in the LZ and a lot of its vicinity?

Turbulence may have been a factor as well.

Bullshit.

Below is a video...

http://vimeo.com/1378063

Dust from the impact seems to be drifting to the SSW. How much do you think that issue was helping his situation?

*Pilot rating not actually Intermediate but Beginner, however this is due to the pilot not caring to apply for the ratings.

Mother Nature just rated him. I'd say a good bit south of Hang One on the critical issues here.

Actual experience is more that of a fairly low time Intermediate rating.

Who cares? Experience wasn't the issue here. He wasn't able to execute some pretty basic functions which require close to zilch in the way of experience and skill.

[Steve Davy]

Clearly Red Dot guy was too slow, but I just cannot imagine that anyone would fly a glider into the ground like that unless he thought he had a bit more altitude than he had.

I notice that he does push out prior to impact, but not as aggressively as I would expect he would have if he knew he was about to hit dirt.

[Tad Eareckson]

He had more speed than I initially gave him credit for on my first inadequate quick skim but he got behind the situation when things started mattering and stayed there.

Tight and simulated tight field approaches and landings - like the examples from Dave Seib and Brian Foster - are a blast and have huge safety margins but they're not taught because the LOOK dangerous. So everybody teaches, practices, glorifies John Simon Mode.

[miguel]

Sorry for the lateness. I do not have constant internet access.

So this was a real serious, permanent damage one that happened some time ago and - very conspicuously - hasn't been reported by ANYONE involved. That sound fishy to anyone besides T** at K*** S******?

Reasons for not reporting serious injury incidents:
a) don't give a flying fuck about the sport and its participants
b) something to hide
c) all of the above
d) none of the above

The correct answer is: d) none of the above

Other than a few individuals, most pilots here, do not post everything that happens, online. We are also not a hot bed of USHGA support. There is word of mouth for the locals. Locals know that you can get popped when landing in crosswind turbulence. They learn early on.

I think there would have been less physical damage if upright...

Bullshit.

...but who is to say?

I am - in no uncertain terms.

Yep, a feller who has never experienced landing with gusty crosswinds here is going to give us the keyboard players version of landing.

Recently, a pilot making a wheel landing and proned out, got popped near the ground.

He got popped because he wasn't carrying enough speed for the conditions. Since he was proned out he then had the option of stuffing the bar to the glider's certified configuration limit. Assuming he started doing things right at that point - and he probably did - it was too little too late.

That techniche will get you a good smoooooooooove, into the wind landing here:



In the real world, however, with gusts coming from the side, a wing may get lifted. If the lifted wing is not corrected both quickly and aggressively, a slipping turn results. Upon contact with the ground, the wheels will not track because of the yaw and damage ensues.

An upright pilot has the ability to almost instantaneously grab and hug the downtube of the raised wing, moving the effective cg temporarily outside of the control apex, bringing the wing down. An upright pilot can also land a glider yawed/slipped in a turn.



If you want to see a demonstration of extreme downtube grabbing, check out your bud noman on youtube.

I have flown with Dave Hopkins before. He is an excellent pilot.

The only thing worth discussing on this one was AIRSPEED.

Ya gotta unnerstand: When you are close to the ground, and your wing gets popped up from a cross wind gust, even with good airspeed, you need the wings level to land safely, especially true with wheels, unless you have wheels like these:

He would've indisputably been in WORSE shape to regain control of the glider if he'd been upright.