Holy Crap
Yeah, you've got that bridle really pulling back on the basetube so you really can't climb anymore. If only there were some way to transfer the tension from over / in front of to below / behind the bar. You could get a lot more altitude / airtime per tow that way. But I just can't see any realistic engineering solution to accomplish something like that.Lin Lyons - 2013/07/10 03:41:02 UTC
I don't stay on tow when the tow line is more than 45 degrees down.
It's just not worth it.
The hardware would hafta be very complex and everybody knows that the more complex something is the more failure prone it is. Give me a Davis Mini Barrel any day of the week. Simple and reliable.
No shit.It's clearly true that when the release wouldn't work, I was considerably farther down, but that's the only time I got that far down the line of the winch.
Well, yeah...I'm pretty sure it's the only time that anyone got that far down the winch line while still on tow.
If that was the only time somebody locked a three-string onto the line that's about what you'd expect.Lin Lyons - 2013/07/03 21:19:38 UTC
What I was told was that they'd never seen an accident like mine.
Well sure... I mean:BTW, when I towed Sunday, it was suggested that I release earlier.
- You just locked your release to the towline two and a half weeks ago so you're highly likely to do it again.
- Mission's certainly not gonna alter their procedures and start checking people before they crank them up because the practice of not checking them has worked flawlessly for decades - except for one time and you certainly wouldn't wanna fuck with anything that's got that kind of track record.
- So if you go up with another locked release you'll wanna have extra time to get your hook knife and/or parachute out while they watch in horror from back at the winch.
Yeah, you certainly don't wanna start doing anything so foolish as topping out tows at this point in your career. If you wanna get a the same amount of airtime just do more tows. MUCH safer that way.I would have anyway.
- Really? I thought they had already determined that the three-string was state-of-the-art equipment.Edit: They're working on a 2-string release, using spectra line, that really cannot be attached incorrectly.
- GREAT! One student induced fuckup like that in decades of tows so reduce the number of loops and demolish the load capacity to reduce the likelihood of a rerun. Don't:
-- beef up the three-string use training
-- design a more idiot resistant three-string
-- institute second party hook-up checks at launch
-- start using Koch two stages
Just use a crappier but more idiot resistant release mechanism. And don't forget to dumb down the weak link to compensate.
- A two-string! Super! The mechanism that locked up on:
- Dave Farkas and almost killed him...
...along with the two people - Bill Bennett and Mike Del Signore - on the tandem he stalled out and crashed behind him.Felipe Amunategui - 1996/08/02
Examination of the towline after the crash revealed that the weak link in the tandem end was intact, and that the tug end had no weak link and no steel ring (used to secure the line to two string release on tug). This suggests that the line did not release when the tug pilot intended it to.
- Peter Birren and inspired him...
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=607
Understanding Tow Releases
...to invent the Linknife and thus remedy virtually all hang glider towing issues.Peter Birren - 2011/08/29 18:40:45 UTC
In my 1000+ tows, I've had to use my hook knife three times... the first was on a pulley tow when an old 2-string release didn't work. Sure did need that hook knife... and RIGHT NOW! Though it worked fine and I lost the bridle and release, it gave me the inspiration to come up with the Linknife.
- How 'bout a one string release? It would be even harder to hook up wrong and easier to manufacture. It wouldn't, of course, have any load capacity but neither does the bent pin barrel release and New and Improved Lockout Mountain Flight Park Release. And people don't seem to have any real problem...I expect that they're also thinking about whether other changes are appropriate.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction
...adjusting to those.Diev Hart - 2011/07/14 17:19:12 UTC
I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now.
- Seems something of a pity that the Koch two stage isn't under consideration but I guess that's out because they:
-- can't risk having anyone's chest crushed; and
-- only use state-of-the-art equipment - like the Mission Two-String Release.
- It's a no brainer that they'll be requiring everyone to fly with three hook knives properly safetied to harness to use as supplements to or instead of the new two-string releases.
- I'm guessing that they'll continue not using launch marshals because:
-- that's always been one of the core components of their highly successful safety program
-- it'll be impossible to hook the new two-string up wrong
-- the capacity of the new two-string is so pathetic that it wouldn't make any noticeable difference if it were hooked up wrong
- Safer weak links to reduce the amount of trouble people can get into.
- Shorter pitch limiters to ensure safer angle of attack ranges.
- Hook-in checks? Hell, it's pretty much flat ground and the winch driver can chop power in an instant. What would be the point?
And I always thought that it was the just the availability of vertical stuff that made Californians so negative on towing.I'd really rather be jumping off a hill.
No Lin, you're quite on target with this.That is, I think I would.
Thanks bigtime, Pat, for:
- doing everything you can think of to make hang glider towing as dangerous and odious an experience as possible for all the incoming flyers you can get your hands on
- dropping expectations of quality into the basement
- normalizing and legitimizing shoddiness, incompetence, ignorance, and stupidity
P.S. Hey Lin...
Notice that what the people who know what the fuck they're talking about are telling you are the basic and obvious fixes that need to be implemented at Mission...
- Koch two stage
- launch marshal
- winch guillotine
- lose the pitch limiter
- beef up the weak link
- dolly launch
...are NOT the fixes that Pat's implementing?
Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you? Think maybe that the reason for this discrepancy is that if Pat implemented effective fixes he'd be, in effect, admitting that it was his negligence, incompetence, apathy that resulted in the situation in which you found yourself a month ago - as very clearly and graphically documented in that viral video of yours?
This is EXACTLY how hang gliding at large has been (d)evolving for decades. Whenever there's a major disaster due to negligence and incompetence the existing solution or obvious fix isn't implemented. The existing solution or obvious fix is suppressed at all cost and the negligence and incompetence is institutionalized as responsible standard operating procedure and best possible practice.
That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh??? 
