Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Deltaman - 2013/03/04 12:23:50 UTC

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 09:25:48 UTC

I'm not, as you may guess, of the opinion that "it's better to be on tow".
It's better to be off tow.

10-525
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/435/19224482318_2da3f48afe_o.png

In this case, what is better ?

1-

When in doubt... get the hell off tow.
Get off before it gets scary.
Pretty simple stuff.

So, with a release not reliable for emergency, let a hand go, get worse, release if you have time enough ..and kill you

2- expect a blown weaklink
- Greenspot 130lb comes ..and kill you
- Greenspot 130lb never comes ..and kill you

3- stay on tow with a 1.4G weaklink and make the correction

Here, the solution:
password: red
http://vimeo.com/17743952

I had previously said about that one:

Tad Eareckson - 2010/12/14 23:51:17 UTC

I'd say that easing up on the gas was the right call but I'm not sure it made any difference in this situation.

That's always bothered me - I think I was wrong. I'm on the record now saying that gassing it would've been a better move.

Zack C - 2013/03/04 14:19:37 UTC

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 09:25:48

Sure. I tow people with 200lb weaklinks.

Jim, forgive my confusion, but back in 2007 you said:

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=11711#p11711
weak links

A 200 lb weak link is equivalent to two loops of 130. Either case is stronger than the tug's weak link. Did you change your mind? If so, why?

I'm not, as you may guess, of the opinion that "it's better to be on tow".

I'm not aware of anyone that would make such a blanket statement.

If I'm forced to pick one...

It's better to be off tow.

You also once said:

Jim Rooney - 2005/09/22 14:05:50 UTC

There are times where it's better to be on tow than off tow.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4411#p4411

Did you change your mind about that too?

He doesn't have a mind. He just goes with whatever direction the most sewage is flowing at the moment.

My take is that sometimes it's better to be on tow and sometimes it's not - and a weak link lacks the ability to decide between the two situations.

What? You think you're a better pilot than a piece of Tournament grade Dacron trolling line? Get real.

I'm not sure what quote Freedomspyder was referring to, but perhaps it was this one:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=11778#p11778

I don't think this is always true either. Had Zack Marzec been given the rope instead of his weak link breaking the result would have been the same.

No.

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

Being a pro - and, in fact, having been pro towed - he'd have been obligated to thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing him, even if he felt he could have ridden it out. Mark should have been given a vote of confidence that he'd made a good decision in the interest of his safety.

Sure, being on tow at the wrong time is an extremely bad thing. But don't tell us that being off tow at the wrong time is all sweet and wonderful. Yes, we prepare for it, but that doesn't make it a safe situation. It makes it a manageable situation.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4411#p4411

I would say it's usually manageable - but in a few rare instances it isn't.

Yeah. Rare instances - like when you come off the cart.

Foot Launch - 2013/03/04 17:12:47 UTC

DeltaDude,

That vid is a payout tow with a pilot using a Koch release. In this case, I would say flying the wing was the best solution. It worked out well for him.

How well do you think it would've worked out for him if his Rooney Link had popped or his Guardian Angel had fixed whatever was going on back there by giving him the rope at that point?

Better solution (IMHO) would have been to just use the ding dang launch platform.

(Odd comment from someone using the tag of "Foot Launch").

Yeah. It would have. So what's your point? This scenario couldn't possibly have happened in dolly launched aero so we really don't need to be worrying about or discussing Rooney Links?

Carry on with the squabbling...

Yeah. And thanks for your most valuable contribution here. It's through efforts, contributions, and taking of stands like yours that this sport is able to move continually forward.

Deltaman - 2013/03/04 17:23:54 UTC

That vid is a payout tow with a pilot using a Koch release.

Yes, I know. and..?
Which relevant difference are you doing between low angle payout tow and AT to the issue that concerns us !?..

Jim Gaar - 2013/03/04 18:38:32 UTC

No perfect system?

Dude you are trolling now for sure...

Suck my dick, Rodie.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

Freedomspyder
I hope you can see what I mean... some people just want to argue.

Actually what I'd like to do is cut your liver out and feed it to the gulls while you watch.

Zack C - 2013/03/04 14:19:37 UTC

A 200 lb weak link is equivalent to two loops of 130.

No it is not.
It's a 260lb weak link.

How can it POSSIBLY be Jim? Here's what was being taught at the scene of the crime about a single loop:

Quest Air - Aerotow FAQ

Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.

Quest is where Chad Elchin got checked out and qualified and I was told at Ridgely that a single was 260 and a double was 520. And so were you. And the ONLY REASON that they didn't up the weak links on their first weekend of operation (Memorial Day, 1999) when they could only get about one in three gliders off the ground was - as Chad told me when I asked him about it - was that 520 pounds was already stressing the glider a lot more than was prudent and a lot more than Donnell's Sacred One G rule of thumb. And they were still spewing that bullshit in around 2007/2008. So don't you DARE tell me that there was EVER any kind of actual thought process going on behind this 130 pound Greenspot crap of yours.

Either case is stronger than the tug's weak link.

Again, no.
I'm towing 200lb pilots with 3strand 200lb link.

So where's your data on that? Nineteen months ago neither you nor any of your shitheaded buddies at Quest...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Steve Davy - 2011/08/01 15:37:02 UTC

What is the line tension required to break the weak link at the tug ?
What is the line tension required to break the weak link on the primary bridle ? (Tandem)
What is the line tension required to break the weak link on the secondary bridle ? (Tandem)

...could come up with anything resembling an answer to Ridgerodent's questions about any of these Industry Standard aerotow weak links.

And last year Dr. Trisa Tilletti published an article in the June issue of Hang Gliding that a three strand was...

What about a three-line weak link?

It is an acceptable method [ref 4], but not necessarily a de facto standard. It can be used to make, for example, a 390 lb. weak link from 130 lb. line for use on a tug.

...390 pounds, since knots have no effect on breaking strength of three stranders - it's just even numbers in which that's an issue. Shouldn't all you keen intellectuals get together and agree what flavors of bullshit you're gonna be feeding the public?

But let's say that it IS 200...

- That means that you're towing a 300 pound glider at one and a third Gs max - before allowing for any increase due to apex angle and the regulation to stay over the glider's weak link.

- And it means that you're towing a 518 pound North Wing T2 tandem at a max of 0.77 Gs - and guess what, motherfucker.

Did you change your mind? If so, why?

The accepted standards and practices changed.

Oh.

- Who the fuck accepted them? I somehow missed that in the USHGA SOPs and FAA FARs.

- On what basis did these stupid pigfuckers who were popping gliders off in mild morning conditions six times in a row and crashing people left and right on fuzzy half G pieces of shit suddenly up things 54 percent?

I still won't tow people with doubled up weaklinks.

Really? I was under the impression that...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/20 22:25:38 UTC

Something to bear in mind... the tug's weaklink is three strand.

For clarity... A normal single loop weaklink would be considered two. A tandem double loop is considered four.

In the tandem setup, the "weaklink" in the system is at the tug end, not the glider.

Ya'll seem to be missing this.
Once you go beyond three strand... you're not using a weaklink. If the weaklink goes, you're getting the rope.

...ALL tandem flights - even if it's Mitch going up with...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h1uyn_zTlo


...some five year old kid at what could easily be around the 268 pound minimum flying weight of a North Wing tandem and fifty pounds under my own solo flying weight - use a double loop of the Sacred Fishing Line.

So it's not safe and reliable enough for solo comp pilots like Davis...

http://ozreport.com/9.032
The Worlds - weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2005/02/07

For a couple of years I have flown with a doubled weaklink because, flying with a rigid wing glider, I have found that there is little reason to expect trouble on tow, except from a weaklink break.

...who's...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC

Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

...been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who?

But it's NOT safe and reliable enough for cute little kids taking tandem joy rides?

You don't get to "make shit up".

No, you stupid pigfuckers have pretty much got that market cornered.

I don't "make shit up" for that matter either.

No...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.

It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.

Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.

Of course not. Anything you say...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:51:12 UTC

Ok, here's something to chew on, while we're on the topic.
It's not going to taste nice, but it's the god's honest truth.

...is the god's honest truth.

We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.

Really? I was under the impression that...

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 10:37:47 UTC

I'm not sure who you're arguing with Zack, but it's sure not me... cuz man... you've got some pretty big hangups mate.

Ra ra ra... burn the greenspot!!!!
Get real man.
You think that's all we use?
Hell, just in this thread, you seem to have missed the 200lb orange links.
Ah, but your strawman argument lives and breaths by your black and white hyperbole.
When you come back to reality, let me know.
Till then, I'm sick of it.

...different people were all the sudden playing by different rules.

But we can't seem to get any straight answers about whether there's any correlation between...

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/22 02:56:08 UTC

Um... If you're going to start pretending that you're discussing his accident you need to remember that Zach was a very light pilot.

...flying weight and...

Zack C - 2013/02/22 03:29:04 UTC

How light is 'very light'? How is this relevant?

...the different rules under which some people get to play?

Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink.

Oh, I see. This is all about HAPPINESS!!! Nothing like in sailplaning where you use a weak link to...

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.

...protect your aircraft against overloading. I guess that's why they selected the 200 - it's orange and orange is a pretty color that makes people happy!

They changed their tug's link...

So they don't tow tandems? 'Cause nobody's said anything about them upping tandem weak links - just solos. And it would be pretty pointless to up the tandem weak link to anything over a double loop of 130 pound Greenspot because:

USAFlytec - 2001/07/14

Steve Kroop - Russell Brown - Bob Lane - Jim Prahl - Campbell Bowen

The tail section of the Dragonfly is designed so that it can accept in-line as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive in-line or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle. More simply put, the mast would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC

I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened).

(Total fuckin' morons.)

...and they don't just pass the stuff out either.

We get it Jim. If I want to tow at 1.0 Gs - half of what the FAA says I can, and what USHGA said I could for twenty-five years until half an hour after Zack hit the runway - I've gotta suck somebody's dick.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

If you'd like to know more about it... go ask them.

Why can't we ask you? I mean...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

SURELY they had to get YOUR approval, signoff, endorsement, blessing to go through with something as radical as this abrupt and unprecedented *54* PERCENT increase! And after twenty years and quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows pinging in and fine tuning to 130 to arrive at THE PERFECT one-size-fits-all standard aerotow weak link!

The law of the land at comps was 130lb greenspot or you don't tow.

And if you DO use 130...

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

You don't get off the ground anyway so what the fuck is the point in traveling halfway across the country or around the world to attempt hang gliding?

Isn't it JUST SUPER how all these brain damaged pieces of shit like Bill Moyes, Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey, Davis, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Trisa, and Adam can pull whatever numbers or pieces of string they feel like, override FAA safety regulations, declare "Laws of Land" to take the actual PILOTS of the actual GLIDERS out of all the equations - abilities to make their own equipment decisions, have any input whatsoever, determine and execute their own flight plans.

Thank you so VERY MUCH, Donnell...

Donnell Hewett - 1982/06

Here you should realize that the whole idea behind the skyting technique is to take flight control out of the hands of the ground crew and place it in the hands of the pilot.

...for your Infallible Weak Link and for setting us on the path that's inevitably brought us to the level of unbridled insanity that we have today.

Seriously. It was announced before the comp that this would be the policy. Some guys went and made their case to the safety committee and were shut down. So yeah, sorry... suck it up.

Ya know, motherfucker... Some day you're gonna tell some hang glider pilot to suck it up once to often - and, hopefully, you may have already done that but just don't know it yet.

I'm not aware of anyone that would make such a blanket statement.

You are now.
Talk to a few more tug pilots btw.

I'm trying to think of any I'd like to be within a mile or two of unless they were doused in gasoline and I was holding a cigarette lighter.

There are times where it's better to be on tow than off tow.

Try the full quote next time...

There are times where it's better to be on tow than off tow. Ask anyone that's dragged a dolly into the air.

- I don't talk to assholes like Chris McKee who drag dollies into the air because they're too fucking stupid to see an unstowed pod lanyard as a potential problem.

- What the fuck does that hafta do with weak links? The weak link is supposed to abort the tow whenever it senses that something might not be right?

- Yeah. Let's ask somebody who's dragged a cart into the air...

Bill Bryden - 1999/06

Rob had started to launch once but a premature towline release terminated this effort after only a few meters into the launch roll-out. It is suspected the cart was rolled backwards a bit and the towline was reattached to begin the launch process again. During the tug's roll-out for the second launch attempt, the tug pilot observed the glider clear the runway dust and then begin a left bank with no immediate correction. At that point he noticed that the launch cart was hanging below the glider and immediately released his end of the 240 ft. towline. The tug never left the ground and tug pilot watched the glider continue a hard bank to the left achieving an altitude of approximately 25 feet. Impact was on the left wing and then the nose of the glider. Rob was killed immediately from severe neck and head trauma. Rob's body likely cushioned much of the student's impact. She was basically uninjured but suffered short term memory loss (not uncommon in hard crashes) and did not recall the events of the accident.

Bummer that he was killed immediately from from severe neck and head trauma and was never able to thank Corey Burk for making a good decision in the interest of his safety.

- And it sure is a good thing he didn't have some irresponsible callous heartless asshole like this guy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLuYBZMT0GE


...who did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the interest of the safety of the glider pilot dragging the cart into the air. ANYTHING could've happened.

Thanks for at least including the link so people can go see for themselves.

Oh, don't mention it Jim. We've got ALL KINDS of links to posts of yours dating back a decade that we're gonna be making available so people can go see for themselves.

I'm not sure what quote Freedomspyder was referring to, but perhaps it was this one:

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

Yeah, that's definitely on the list.

Sounds about right... pretty consistent with what I've been saying as well.

ANYTHING'S pretty consistent with what I've been saying at one time or another because you always say what's most convenient at the time and are too fuckin' stupid to coordinate the lies and give yourself plausible outs.

Sure, being on tow at the wrong time is an extremely bad thing. But don't tell us that being off tow at the wrong time is all sweet and wonderful. Yes, we prepare for it, but that doesn't make it a safe situation. It makes it a manageable situation.

I again see nothing wrong here.

Me neither. Your idiot buddy Zack Marzec - for example - came off tow at the wrong time and managed to hit the runway right side up and survive in the ambulance halfway to the hospital.

Thanks for the quote.

Don't mention it.

So, if you're interested in discussing something, let me know.

OK...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/22 03:29:04 UTC

How light is 'very light'? How is this relevant?

How light is 'very light' and how is that relevant to the issue of the 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak link that clearly protected your idiot buddy Zack Marzec from a high angle of attack?

If you're just here to argue, dude, I've got so much better shit to waste my time with.

I'm sure you do - but here you are anyway digging yourself in deeper with everything you post.

[Warnarr]

Blindrodie is the weaklink.
Tad, I feel like I should send you $20. Do you have a tin cup?

Carful who you put stock in mate.

If people really knew..

Calling blindrodie a fool? Seriously? Easily discounted?

If the shoe fits..

You may not have an understanding of who you're brushing off… You're blowing off a tug pilot instead?

Hey Rooney, you're the one that doesn't have a clue who Blindrodie really is. Jim Gaar, never was a tug pilot. He never was a "test pilot." He wasn't around in the "early days" of aero tow. Jim Gaar, is a big fat liar that's all hat and no cattle
although I have heard his wife does have a horse.

Jim Gaar, was a Hang 2 that ran a one horse "flight park" into the ground. He was a Hang 2, somewhat self appointed "General Manager" that then appointed himself Safety Czar of the "flight park."

I think Blindrodie might be a low time Hang 3 by now and the "flight park" went belly up quite a while ago.
Jim Gaar, misrepresents himself as an old timer of substance in hang gliding. It's kinda sad to watch. Pathetic.
What's sadder is how long he has gotten away with it.

Signed,
Disgruntled Former Business Partner

[Tad Eareckson]

Blindrodie is the weaklink.

Nah. Rooney's the weak link in this whole Ponzi scheme and it's him we've gotta totally vaporize. Blindrodie is a distraction we can squash later at our convenience.

Tad, I feel like I should send you $20. Do you have a tin cup?

Thanks. But Zack's footing the bill - he'd be the one to send something to.

If people really knew..

I think a few are starting to.

I think Blindrodie might be a low time Hang 3 now and the "flight park" went belly up quite a while ago.

James Gaar - 73864 - H3 - 2005/07/25 - Len Smith - AT FL PL PA CL FSL RLF

What's sadder is how long he has gotten away with it.

He's not getting away with it so much now.

I'm surprised that Rooney

I don't know what the rest of that sentence was supposed to be but I sure can't think of much I could finish it with.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Swift - 2013/03/04 22:45:52 UTC

Re: No perfect system?

Jim Gaar - 2013/03/04 18:38:32 UTC

Dude you are trolling now for sure...

This Dude?

Zack C - 2013/03/03 06:15:37 UTC

Which is what, exactly? The FAA and USHPA specify a range of acceptable values that is quite large.

I think Zack and others want you to elaborate on the perfect system.
How did 130# greenspot happen to work out for all the tows for which you were responsible?

Because regardless of whether it holds or breaks - and the consequences to the glider - you can always say that it "works".

Swift - 2013/03/04 22:58:43 UTC

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

The accepted standards and practices changed.

After 20 years of the perfect weaklink for all tows?
When did that memo come out?

I dunno. Should be something about it in the 2012/06 edition of Hang Gliding. Fourteen pages worth on aerotow weak links. Gotta be something about it in there somewhere.

Freedomspyder - 2013/03/04 23:12:34 UTC

I'm not really interested in discussing what an 'argument' is or isn't.

It's obviously when some pompus asswipe fails to recognize the insurmountable brilliance of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and question a statement made based on a track record of quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows.

However, Zack and Deltaman seem pretty consistent with their message.

Well yeah. But look at the lengths of their track records.

Blindrodie is easy enough to discount as a fool.

But let's keep him talking anyway so it will become obvious to the slower kids as well.

I won't bother going back to comment on other folks (purportedly in the weak weaklink camp) who have posted moronic things just because they disagree.

That's OK. I've got damn near all of it covered over here.

Disagreements aside, I appreciate your taking the time to respond.

Not nearly as much as I do.

I hope you continue to.

No worries there. He'll never be smart enough to know when to shut the fuck up after one of these - like Trisa's doing.

To me it makes most sense to use as strong a weak link as possible.

Half a G under what's legally possible ain't a bad idea.

Expecting the weaklink to work as a lockout prevention device seems foolhardy.

Yeah, but when you're forcing everybody up on cheap Industry Standard junk for releases that everyone and his dog has known for decades will be one hundred percent useless you need to leave the pilot with something to pin his hopes on - regardless of how absurdly remote is the possibility of a positive outcome and how high the probability that trying to gear the fishing line for a job for which it's astronomically unsuitable is to result in a crash should all the criteria necessary for a more positive outcome not be met.

Sorry if that word offends anyone, it's not my intent to suggest your a fool for not agreeing.

Assholes like these need to be offended and degraded as much as possible.

I have never tried towing from the shoulders, but it seems to me that if I have an attachment to the keel as well as the glider I would be safer.

Do ya think? If it were the case Davis is so insanely attempting to make we'd start people off one point and graduate them to two after a couple of years.

Prior to getting back into towing, I think I need to learn a lot more.

Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC

I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).

Davis Straub - 2013/03/04 23:55:21 UTC

Great towing today...

Super Davis, glad you enjoyed it. For myself however...

I prefer to fly on days when the towing totally sucks - 'cause the better the towing the lower the probability that there will be anything to sustain the flight when the tow's over.

But, of course, that means to do things safely and sanely you need to have top notch equipment - but if you're happy doing what you're doing with the crap you're using then I am too.

...pro towing at Quest Air.

Great! Carrying on the tradition in Zack Marzec's honor. Of course you could honor him even more by combining being pro toad with a Davis Link but there's still hope that you could blow a 200 in the same scenario and achieve the same results.

A bunch of us here.

Say hi to all the pigfuckers for me next time you see them. And tell them I think it's really great the way they've all put this Zack Marzec bit of unpleasantness behind them and gotten on with life.

Pro tow is my preference.

Great!

You can have your own.

My preference IS that you continue to be pro toad. And with your own world renowned Mini Barrel Release and the safer weak link material that we've all been applauding Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey for twenty years for discovering and mandating.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Zack C - 2013/03/05 00:47:25 UTC

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

No it is not.
It's a 260lb weak link.

By 'it' do you mean two loops of 130? I know several people that have experimentally verified the breaking strength of that configuration to be about 200 lbs. Davis linked to some results just recently:

Davis Straub - 2005/03/01

Steve Kroop, Rhett Radford and I went out again and tested four strands of this line. Steve was able to lift his 185 lbs off the ground, and when I added a very small bit of tugging (slowly) on the line, it broke. Say 200 pounds.

http://ozreport.com/9.049#1
Weaklinks

The others I referred to used load testers for more precise results.

Again, no.
I'm towing 200lb pilots with 3strand 200lb link.

Are you saying you change the weak link on the tug depending on the weak link the pilot is using? Are not three strands of 200 lb stronger than the built-in tow mast weak link on a Dragonfly?

http://ozreport.com/5.126#3
Flytec Dragonfly

You've implied this yourself (in this quote, '3strand' refers to 130).

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC

That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened).

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=17434#p17434
Weak link question

Three strands of 200 is stronger than four strands of 130.

The accepted standards and practices changed.

Arguing for whatever the current standards are just because they're the standards is what's made it so hard...

Damn near impossible.

...to make any progress.

But the plus side is that every once in a while an Industry Standard asshole makes a good case for sanity by taking himself out of - and greatly benefitting - the gene pool.

Perhaps those that have been pushing for stronger weak links all these years were right?

Bullshit. They were all dangerous nut jobs...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 16:59:30 UTC

...Just don't tell me that weaklinks need to be stronger! That's just flat out ignorant.

...not adhering to, and, in fact, expressing open contempt and disdain for accepted standards and practices.

I'm glad to see some progress now (Lookout is also using 200 lb line)...

Are you quite sure that making them HEAVIER should be viewed as progress? In the opinion of 48 percent of all aerotow pilots 130 is perfect so there's about a fifty/fifty chance that their opinions of lighter Greenspot would improve if we started putting it in the air.

...but as long as (for example) places are mandating 130, we still have a ways to go.

Anybody considered a federal law enforcement option?

You are now.

No, I said it depends on the circumstances. I have repeatedly said that in a bad situation it's usually better to be off tow.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=118434#118434
Zach Marzec

Sight unseen, I'm staying on.

Try the full quote next time...

The pilot in the situation that prompted your quote wasn't dragging a dolly into the air.

Et cetera...

If you're just here to argue, dude, I've got so much better shit to waste my time with.

The purpose of my previous post was to seek clarification from you on some things you've said and express disagreement on others. I don't see the problem. If everyone agrees, it's impossible to make progress.

Yeah, that's about the size of things. And when everyone has gotten his training through the same idiot cult...

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20 UTC

Carful who you put stock in mate.

Rather ironic spelling of "careful" don't ya think - MATE?

Calling blindrodie a fool?

He'd hafta put in a decade's worth of really intensive effort to make it up to something approaching that level.

Seriously? Easily discounted?

Increasingly so. As is the situation with your ass - MATE.

You may not have an understanding of who you're brushing off...

Another stupid, cowardly, low life, fuckin' waste of space not all that far above your level - MATE.

In lieu of some people that have been listening to the rantings of, I kid you not, a convicted pedophile.

It didn't work two summers ago when Davis and you and tried to play that card 'cause you had nothing else, I made sure it blew up in Bob's nasty pathetic face when he tried to pull the same sleazy stunt, and it's not gonna work for you now. You fucking morons effectively murdered Zack Marzec at the beginning of last month and there's a paper trail over thirty years long documenting it. So knock yourself out - MATE.

And note that even though I've been blacklisted and banned from every operation and discussion group over which you cowardly pigfuckers have some control - I'm still here.

And my name pops up all over the place after all flavors of towing disasters. Here are a few names that don't:

Donnell Hewett - Dennis Pagen - Bill Bryden - Bill Moyes - Bobby Bailey - Malcolm Jones - Russell Brown - Steve Kroop - Paul Tjaden -
Lauren Tjaden - Mitch Shipley - Matt Taber - Steve Wendt - Adam Elchin - Sunny Venesky - Jim Rooney - Bart Weghorst - Rob Kells -
Mike Meier - Peter Birren - Steve Kroop - Trisa Tilletti - Davis Straub - Jack Axaopoulos - Bob Kuczewski - Cragin Shelton - Joe Gregor -
Brian Vant-Hull

unless, of course, they've been involved in / responsible for the towing disasters.

I'm getting listened to more and the Kinsley Sykesses aren't kissing your ass quite as passionately as they were the last time you tried to play the "convicted pedophile" card. Assholes like Paul Hurless break out in rashes at the mere mention of my name. I'm the primary source of all the heat you smug little shits are catching right now.

So keep playing your convicted pedophile card. All it accomplishes is to raise my profile and boost my relevance and the Kite Strings hit counters. You're dealing with someone who's got nothing to lose and that can be an extremely dangerous enemy.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20 UTC

I'm willing to look past the messenger...

How very enlightened of you.

To a point.

The point at which one of you pro toad assholes has been snuffed for the SOLE and BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS reason that his Rooney Link popped...

Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation"...

...at the worst possible time, when the glider was climbing hard in a near stall situation. Then you're gonna start playing the "convicted pedophile" and...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.

..."we *might* have an idea of how this stuff works" cards.

But gimme a break...

No way in hell, motherfucker - EVER. The more helpless you become the harder I'm gonna keep kicking, stomping, and gouging.

You're blowing off a tug pilot instead?

- Oh, perish the thought that we should discount any incoherent babblings from a representative of the pinnacle of human evolution!

- Funny the way Jim seems to leave the impression everywhere he goes that...

Jim Gaar - 2013/02/15 21:27:45 UTC

I'm NOT a tug pilot but all the tug pilots that worked with me (3) were on board with the current procedures described in this thread.

...he's a tug pilot.

- Flying a three axis controlled aircraft with a powerful and reliable engine, built in takeoff/landing gear, and a solid built in release system at the front of a towline takes a tiny fraction of the brains, balls, skill, muscle, concentration, and reflexes and half the number of hands it does to fly a weight shift controlled, roll unstable unpowered aircraft at the back end of the towline.

Throw in thermals, incompetent douchebag tug drivers (meaning pretty much all of them), Rooney Links on both ends of the towline, other mandated Industry Standard equipment at the back, and the back end guy is simply ROLLING DICE EVERY TIME HE LAUNCHES.

Tugs NEVER get fucked up by gliders. The ONLY thing that fucks up a tug...



...is an engine failure. And that's something that the tug driver - through proper maintenance, procedures, and preflight checks - has a lot of say in avoiding.

The PRIMARY thing that fucks up a glider...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...is an instantaneous loss of the engine power the glider has paid some asshole in a Dragonfly to deliver to him.

And the primary cause of that happening is one of the Rooney Links the asshole in the Dragonfly is mandating to keep the glider safe from the glider pilot's piloting.

Another cause of that happening is the asshole in the Dragonfly...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

...fixing whatever's going on back there by...

Bill Bryden - 1999/06

During the tug's roll-out for the second launch attempt, the tug pilot observed the glider clear the runway dust and then begin a left bank with no immediate correction. At that point he noticed that the launch cart was hanging below the glider and immediately released his end of the 240 ft. towline. The tug never left the ground and tug pilot watched the glider continue a hard bank to the left achieving an altitude of approximately 25 feet. Impact was on the left wing and then the nose of the glider. Rob was killed immediately from severe neck and head trauma.

...giving him the rope.

No tug has EVER been crashed because of:
- a Rooney Link - at either end - increasing the safety of the towing operation
- the glider making a good decision in the interest of his safety and fixing what was going on up there by giving him the rope
- a glider forced up with Industry Standard crap velcroed to its downtube locking out and slamming in

Plenty of gliders have gone down - never to fly again - for all those reasons though.

P.S. Very interesting the way you backed Jim Gaar for whatever OPINIONS he might spew based - not upon any competence, expertise, professionalism, logic, insight he may have exhibited - but rather upon the fact that you THOUGHT he was a pinnacle of human evolution tug pilot, when, in fact, he's nothing but a miserable lying useless Hang Three pudwhacker.

And if he had told you they used three hundred pound fishing line at Adventure AirSports for five years with no issues that would've become an acceptable standard.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20 UTC

Zack. . Till you've got data showing that 130lb line doubled up breaks at the single 200lb line strength... Not 200lbs...Then your argument holds no water.

- I got the data - motherfucker.

- Meaning - big surprise - that none of you fuckin' flight park douchebags...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.

...has actually ever bothered to TEST *ANY* of the Rooney Link flavors you're declaring to be perfect for the applications and shoving down everybody's throats - or even listen to any of the people who HAVE.

- So just how many of ANY of YOUR *ARGUMENTS* hold?

On one side, you're saying that 130lb line breaks at 100lbs...

- Quote him saying that - motherfucker.

- Under how much tension do you figure THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlIGsgNFRWM


one broke?

So what makes you believe that 200lb line breaks at 200?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8317889807/


Sometimes you hafta do something a lot more work, a lot more demanding, and a lot less fun than driving a Dragonfly up and down all day long to get and do aviation right - meaning based upon something better than the whims and opinions of sty of brain dead flight park pigfuckers.

Btw, it's nothing to do with you "counting" on the weaklink breaking... Its about me not trusting you to hit the release.

- Now why would you not trust US to hit one of the fine Industry Standard releases...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


...that YOU sell us and force us to use?

- Maybe if you let us develop stuff that DOESN'T suck beyond all description we could do our jobs and you could trust us.

- Whose safety are you concerned about?
-- If it's:
--- yours then are you too fuckin' incompetent to squeeze the lever on your joystick well in advance of you having a problem?
--- his then shouldn't he have been extremely well checked out before some asshole signed his card?
-- Is it responsible to EVER let somebody whose competence you don't trust hook up behind you?

- So you're saying that US AT training totally sucks? That you can't trust ANY rated pilots? So whose fault is that?

How come you guys are so totally awesome at rating perfect one-size-fits-all lockout protectors...

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

The accepted standards and practices changed.

...but are totally incapable of producing and rating aerotow pilots?

If it were only about what you want, then you could use what you like.

And perish the thought that hang glider pilots should be able to do what THEY want.

You want the strongest weaklink you can have.

No, pigfucker. I'm quite content with a weak link half a G under that. I'm happy going for the middle of the legal range - in line with what sailplane manufacturers specify for their birds.

I want you to have the weakest one practical..

- Like Zack Marzec's Rooney Link.

- And who gives a flying fuck if what YOU determine is PRACTICAL...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

...is LEGAL.

I don't care how much it inconveniences you.

Does instant death fall under the catchall category of inconvenience?

I don't trust you as a rule. You Trust you , but I don't and shouldn't.

Which means - big surprise - that you're not the SLIGHTEST bit concerned about the safety and well-being of the glider pilot. Because if he can't be trusted to perform adequately on tow he also can't be trusted to maintain, set up, and preflight his glider, clear his turns when thermalling and avoid plowing into another glider, avoid getting sucked into an overdeveloping cumie and broken apart, navigate back to the airport or...



...select a safe landing field, land at the airport without flying into a taxiway sign and breaking both arms.

So Jim...

On the afternoon of 2013/02/02 one of your hallowed Dragonfly drivers operating at a flight park that's been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years...

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.

...wound up with a dead pilot on his hands (although he himself was fortunate enough to escape the same fate by the narrowest of margins.

The crash now - after over a month - is TOTALLY INEXPLICABLE. Nobody has ANY IDEA what caused it. The innocent victim was a PROFESSIONAL AEROTOW PILOT and TANDEM INSTRUCTOR and...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

I just buried my friend...

...YOUR FRIEND - so ya know he just had to be another one of you God's Gifts to Aviation. And NOBODY has suggested that he did the SLIGHTEST THING WRONG.

All we have so far is...

...and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?

...PURE SPECULATION.

So why are you so fucking sure that forcing everybody up on mostly illegally light weak links is the right strategy? Since everything is pure speculation how were you able to rule out the Rooney Link as a relevant issue?

You said:

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/22 02:56:08 UTC

Um... If you're going to start pretending that you're discussing his accident you need to remember that Zach was a very light pilot.

So SURELY you must have some nagging suspicion that the same weak link may perform differently on gliders of varying weights.

And it turns out that Zack actually wasn't all that light - 55 pounds over some of the little girl gliders I've seen using Rooney Links.

So there's NO POSSIBLE WAY that was significant? There's NO POSSIBLE WAY a twenty-two percent lighter glider on the same weak link would've had a different - possibly better - outcome than your 255 pound buddy?

And how deeply have you looked into incidents in which other colleagues of yours - tug pilots who, by definition, can do no wrong - who've wound up with dead pilots on their hands and what have been your conclusions?

When Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey wound up with a dead pilot on his hands because...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Davis Straub - 2011/07/30 19:51:54 UTC

I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.

...a Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey designed spinnaker shackle release...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318769461/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318781297/

...snagged the focal point of his safe towing system what was done to make sure nobody would wind up with another dead pilot on his hands? I mean besides forcing everyone to use weak links incapable of getting them airborne?

And how deeply have you looked into incidents in the colleagues of yours - tug pilots who, by definition, can do no wrong - were killed by the gliders behind them and what percentage of the time was an unapproved stronglink a likely issue?