Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

Ok, keyboard in hand.
I've got a bit of time, but I'm not going to write a dissertation...

That's alright, Jimmy. We're always so grateful to have the benefit of whatever morsel of your keen intellect you feel you can spare.

...so either choose to try to understand what I'm saying...

And, of course, we can all safely assume that YOU understand what you're saying because YOU fly a tug up and down all day for a living and are therefore VASTLY superior to everyone who doesn't.

...or (as is most often the case) don't.

I think a lot more people than is probably healthy for you ARE understanding EXACTLY what you are - AND AREN'T - saying at this point.

I don't care.

Yeah, everybody has known that for a long time.

Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off.

Will this bitter reality that we all get to understand straight off be verifiable from any other sources? Or are we just supposed to swallow it because Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is stating it as God's honest truth?

I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.

If you're pulling it out of your ass - as usual - couldn't you please spare just a very thin coating for us?

You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.

- Not any rope I'd ever get on again for any amount of money. A REAL pilot doesn't put himself in a position in which his life may be dependent upon an action or inaction or equipment under the control of a stupid lying incompetent shithead. There's no point in spending years developing the best towing equipment on the planet if it can be neutralized in a nanosecond by some moron with a dump lever on his joystick and a worn out triple strand of 130 pound Greenspot on his tow bridle.

- Yeah motherfucker. We PAY you to be on the other end of that goddam rope. We're not there for YOUR pleasure. You're there for OURS. All you are is a goddam truck driver with a massive ego problem.

- So fuckin' what? You have a goddam lever you can squeeze in an instant any time you feel like it. And regardless of whatever consequence WE experience as a result - inconvenience, stall, crash, tumble, death - your situation ALWAYS and IMMEDIATELY improves.

I want neither a dead pilot on my hands...

- Then you do your fuckin' job with your piece of junk aircraft and let us worry about flying our planes. I don't want any of you assholes closer than 250 feet from me or my glider - IF THAT.

- You, as a goddam tug driver, have ZERO qualifications to fly a glider make any determinations about how it's equipped - other than to ensure that it has a 0.8 to 2.0 G weak link.

- You ESPECIALLY don't have any authority to make any determinations about my glider and/or its equipment since Tim Herr and Dr. Trisa Tilletti deleted ALL requirements about glider certification and, right about the time Zack Marzec got killed as a consequence of using shit for equipment - equipment standards.

- So what would you have done differently from what Mark Frutiger did on the second flight of the day two weeks ago? If we can't get an answer from you we're all just rolling dice every time we go up behind a Dragonfly because...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16026
safety

Mark Frutiger - 2010/03/03 20:51:32 UTC
Rochester

Jim Rooney answered you. Try to find someone more qualified.

...you are almost certainly the foremost authority in this field.

...or one trying to kill me.

- What would be the best way to kill you, Jim? (For the purpose of this exercise I mean quickest, rather than most painful and horrifying - which would be my usual preference.) Would you recommend that...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Jack Barth - 2013/02/12 20:15:45 UTC

Watched a guy pull in hard as he left the cart and hold that position making it very difficult for the tug pilot. Afterwards he got a butt chewen. He did a whole bunch of ground skimming which put the tug in severe jeopardy.

...we pull in hard as we leave the cart to put the tug in severe jeopardy?

Wouldn't we need to use a stronglink to be able to pull off something like that because a proper Quest Link...

Quest Air
Aerotow FAQ

Equipment and Accessories

Weak Link

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air.

...ensures a safe tow by breaking before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider - and thus the handling of the tug?

And a proper Wallaby Link...

The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 1998/02

A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

...will break if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon) before you can get into too much trouble?

So it's really hard to imagine the tug getting in any trouble with that kind of level of protection.

I guess that you have to be really careful about the glider's weak link at Quest because in Florida when you put weak links on BOTH ends of bridles...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release

Juan Saa - 2012/10/18 00:17:28 UTC

I beg to disagree with having 2 weak links ! By doing that you are splitting the load and in all practicality you are nullifying the purpose of the weak link as a safety element!

...and towlines it's the added - rather than lower - value that determines the blow point.

Must be REALLY scary when you're towing tandems...
-- Three strands up front is 390 times two 'cause it's on a bridle is 780.
-- Four strands in the back is 520 times two 'cause it's on a bridle is 1040.

So we're talking 1820 pounds - pretty close to a ton. Gotta tell ya - you guys really have some cojones to do the job you do.

- But isn't the weak link you have on your end selected in accordance with your "comfort level"? And doesn't that make whatever the glider is using TOTALLY IRRELEVANT?

- And don't you have a built in release system designed by Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey with a dump lever on your joystick so you don't hafta compromise control to use it? And has there ever been a report of a failure of that system?

- Can you cite a single instance of a hang glider equipment problem endangering a tug?

And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.

- Like...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.

...The purpose of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation - PERIOD?

Whenever I hear you ending a declaration with the word "PERIOD" I can be damned sure you're pulling something out of your ass and stating it as indisputable fact.

- So is there something in the USHGA SOPs and/or FAA regs that states that? If the pilot is black and you don't think them nigras are capable of competent piloting can you refuse to tow him?

- Yes. And we miserable hang glider pilots are SO FORTUNATE to have had you Dragonfly drivers take over our sport and save us from ourselves. Think of the CARNAGE that would result...

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).

...if we were permitted the autonomy to make our own decisions - within the confines of FAA regulations - regarding our safety instead of having saints like you and Bobby forcing us off the bottom of the FAA safety range.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

On tow, I am the PIC.

I have no doubt that you are the Pilot In Command of my plane. The deaths of Bill Bennett, Mike Del Signore, Jamie Alexander, Frank Spears, Rob Richardson, Arlan Birkett, and Jeremiah Thompson should end any argument about who's most in control of my situation whenever the shit hits the fan. You have total control over what I'll be using as a weak link because whatever I have on my end you can override with your end. And you've got that lovely little lever you can use to...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...instantly cut my power and dump me in a whipstall back onto the runway. And as the Pilot In Command of the operation you get to write up my fatality report and let everyone know what a total incompetent douchebag I was and how I screwed the pooch so badly that even the good decision you made in the interest of my safety wasn't enough to save me from myself.

Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.

Yes. I'm totally sure...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

...you get that. I never had the slightest doubt.

Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one.

Don't you DARE present yourself a hang glider pilot. You're nothing but a basetube dangling malignant little blight on the sport.

BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.

But since we've bought your Dragonflies for you and you've gained control of all the airports and can ban anybody you feel like with no accountability whatsoever we hang glider pilots can just keep our noses up your ass and allow you to gain more and more control over our sport with each passing year.

Accept it and move on.

Yes, oh wise and powerful lord who holds dominion over everything in the known universe and beyond.

Not only can you not change it...

Ha ha ha ha ha...

...it's the law... in the very literal sense.

Can you cite that somewhere? Or are you totally confident at this point that the Kinsley Sykes caliber dregs which populate this sport will just keep letting you get away with anything and everything you feel like saying and doing?

So, you're quite right in your thinking in your example. The person you have to convince is me (or whoever your tuggie is).

And I kinda like the suggestion he had for convincing you.

I've had this conversation with many people.

Yeah...

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink).

Millions of them.

We've had various outcomes.

Yeah...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


NONE of them any good.

I can tell you what my general ideas and rules are...

And after we're up to speed on those we can go listen to Paul Broun's general ideas on the Big Bang Theory, geology, evolution...

...but you do not need to agree with them nor do you get to dictate anything to me...

Nor does the FAA. If they dictate minimum weak link ratings and relative front and back end ratings you just tell them to go fuck themselves.

...if I'm not happy, you ain't getting towed by me. Why I'm not happy doesn't matter. It's my call, and if I'm having so much as a bad hair day, then tough. You can go get someone else.

So go fuck yourself.

I won't be offended. Each tuggie is different...

- Hardly. There aren't a whole lot of them I'd bother dialing 911 for if I saw them trapped in flaming wreckage - for tolerating such incredible flaming assholes as you, Bo, and Trisa in their ranks if nothing else.

- But I thought that:

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
There isn't going to be some "oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment. The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.

Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.

It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.

- you, the people who work at and run the aerotow parks, had a long track record
- this stuff wasn't new and had been slowly refined over decades and quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows
- you knew what you were doing and we were dealing with a great depth of experience here
- you had thought of everything
- the obvious answers had already been explored - at length

...and:

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

Argue all you like about the "true" purpose of a weaklink... but it's only you that's arguing.
I find no disagreement in the professional community as to such.
I only find a disconnect when they're talking to the general public, and it always boils down to semantics.

See, we're not confused.
You're searching for an argument and only finding it within yourself.

This btw is one of the main reasons that most of the professionals do not bother with the forums.
Cuz it's generally a bitchfest around here.

Instead of looking for an argument, you may consider listening instead.

- there was no disagreement in the professional community
- you only found disconnects when talking to the general public and it always boiled down to semantics
- you weren't confused
- there is no argument except within ourselves
- one of the main reasons that most professionals don't bother with the forums are because they're generally bitchfests
- we shouldn't look for arguments but rather listen instead

So how can there POSSIBLY be ANY differences of opinions amongst tuggies? I mean, you've all decided for all of us benighted general public types that the PERFECT weak link for us is EXACTLY a 130 pound Cortland Marzec Link. So, given that, how can there POSSIBLY be ANY OTHER PIECE OF HANG GLIDER AEROTOWING EQUIPMENT about which there are varying OPINIONS?

Why aren't ALL of you TOTALLY UNANIMOUS on the only acceptable release and bridle configurations and components?

This is TERRIBLY confusing to me - especially since in sailplaning virtually everyone has zeroed in on 1.3 G weak links for aero, 1.4 G weak links for surface, and Koch as the most common and undeniably best quality and safest release mechanism.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

...and I've had someone ask me to tow them with some stuff that I wasn't happy with...

Yeah? So how the fuck is that any of your goddam business or concern?

The things that are most likely to get the glider crashed are rope breaks...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/19 14:50:52 UTC

And yes, get behind me with a "strong link" and I will not tow you.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flyhg/message/17223
Pilot's Hotline winter flying

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/03 13:41

The weak link broke at around 150 feet or so and Zach stalled and dropped a wing or did a wingover, I couldn't tell. The glider tumbled too low for a deployment.

...premature releases...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Give 'em the rope? When?

William Olive - 2005/02/11 08:59:57 UTC

I give 'em the rope if they drop a tip (seriously drop a tip), or take off stalled. You will NEVER be thanked for it, for often they will bend some tube.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14221
Tad's release

William Olive - 2008/12/24 23:46:36 UTC

I've seen a few given the rope by alert tug pilots, early on when things were going wrong, but way before it got really ugly. Invariably the HG pilot thinks "What the hell, I would have got that back. Now I've got a bent upright."

The next one to come up to the tuggie and say "Thanks for saving my life." will be the first.

...bad pin men...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

Bill Bryden - 1999/06

At that point he noticed that the launch cart was hanging below the glider and immediately released his end of the 240 foot towline. The tug never left the ground and tug pilot watched the glider continue a hard bank to the left achieving an altitude of approximately 25 feet. Impact was on the left wing and then the nose of the glider. Rob was killed immediately from severe neck and head trauma.

...taking a hand off the bar...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a twenty-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.

...releases that require you to take your hand off the bar...

Gregg McNamee - 1996/12

If your system requires you to take your hand off the control bar to actuate the release it is not suitable.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

...releases that are ABSOLUTE JUNK...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

The towline release is a critically important piece of equipment. It is the device which frees you from the towline and it must be failure-proof.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC

Oh it happens.
I have, all the guys I work with have.
(Our average is 1 in 1,000 tows)

Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.

So you:

- tell us that a rope break is the focal point of our safe towing system and force us all up on the lightest possible rope with which we can make it to altitude once in a while

- solve the problems that our rope breaks don't with premature releases

- enlist us to nurture our bad pin men such that their pinmanship becomes even worse

- equip us ONLY with releases that require us to take hands off bars and:
-- tell people that it's no BFD to take a hand off a a bar
-- are ABSOLUTE JUNK on top of that

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.

- prohibit us from using the gear we've developed to replace the ABSOLUTE JUNK with which you're equipping us

Basically the only problems we can have with respect to the equipment we have on our end are:
- to pop off when we don't want to
- not be able to pop off when we need to
- pay a price of increasing the likelihood of locking out and/or the severity of a lockout in order to release

You very obviously don't give a rat's ass about ANY of those issues and assure us that you will have no problem whatsoever popping us off at your whim so what could anybody POSSIBLY have on his glider to make you less happy than you are with all of the shit you're towing normally?

Did it incorporate:
- barbed wire?
- rusty nails?
- broken glass?
- leaky sarin gas canisters?
- Ebola virus cultures?
- plutonium dust?

What? Please tell us so we won't repeat his mistakes and bring you any more unhappiness. After all, the only reason most of us got into this sport in the first place was out of an all consuming concern for your happiness.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

...and I told him point blank... go ask the other guy, maybe he'll do it.

So what you're saying is that you really didn't give a flying fuck about this guy and any tug driver foolish enough to tow him up with this junk you - in your infinite wisdom - determined was dangerous to the people on both ends. You didn't say, "Zack, these things are DANGEROUS. They become totally inaccessible in emergencies, have no mechanical advantage and can't be pulled under load, and have been known to...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8331326948/


...self-destruct and weld themselves shut in fairly normal circumstances. Please don't fly with this - ANYWHERE. I've got a loaner you can use today and I can get you a proper assembly of your own by next weekend."

So I'm having a real hard time understanding why you're so torn up about your asshole buddy buying the farm as a consequence of his Rooney Link increasing the safety of the towing operation 'cause it happened behind one of your many disciples and not you.

Lemme tell ya sumpin', motherfucker...

Anybody who sees somebody using something he believes is dangerous and tells him to try using it behind some tug other than his is a goddam sociopath.

[Zack C]

Any chance you'll give any straight answers to any of Zack's questions? Just kidding.

I'd be content with any answers to my questions. I've asked him several times at this point what he thinks Greenspot 'works' to do, but...

I'll answer actual questions if you're keen to actually hear the answers...

...he only answers 'actual' questions. Or maybe the problem is that I'm not keen to actually hear the answers. Damn my lack of keenness.

As far as I can see, his position can be boiled down to 'we use this because this is what we use.' And somehow asserting this constitutes 'refuting' something...

Zack

[deltaman]

I take that, better than my english ..and parroting.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=118111#118111

[Tad Eareckson]

I'd be content with any answers to my questions.

Keep asking them. Keep him talking and digging himself in deeper with his evasions, nonresponses, inconsistencies, contradictions. If we keep the heat on we can destroy this son of a bitch. People are FINALLY beginning to see through him and he's made some disastrous/fatal mistakes.

Everybody and his dog knows that whenever somebody makes a statement like THIS:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

it's blindingly obvious that it can ONLY mean that he and his colleagues don't have the slightest fucking clue what they're doing, know they don't have the slightest fucking clue what they're doing, and know they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever attaining the slightest fucking clue as to what they're doing.

It makes NO DIFFERENCE what the topic is. Anybody who was told that by a doctor would instinctively know he would have about another six weeks to live if he didn't dump him and find something other than a lying quack IMMEDIATELY.

Those eight or ten of us in hang gliding who understand what weak links and releases are and the differences between them know that:

- ridding ourselves of every vestige of Hewett weak link theory poisoning...

Zack C - 2010/11/07 05:40:14 UTC

Is there /anyone/ that agrees with you completely? Do you realize how difficult what you're asking me to do is? You're asking me, a not particularly experienced H3, to discard most of what I've been taught about weak links and the convention that has been accepted at pretty much all aerotow flight parks and competitions and trade it for a practice that very few are endorsing. It's very hard for me to believe that the convention is the convention only because everyone following it is an idiot.

...is the hardest thing we've ever done in hang gliding;

- to have a chance one needs to be at least about fifteen to twenty times as intelligent as the typical Kinsley Sykes caliber dregs which constitute the bulk of the hang gliding population; and

- organisms like Rooney and his disciples which have devolved as far as they have back towards the primordial ooze don't have a snowball's chance in hell.

So anyway, the current tactical situation...

- A very popular, highly skilled, experienced, rated, tandem instructoring, Golden Boy pro toad has just been snuffed by the 130 pound Greenspot focal point of his safe towing system.

- That single incident has totally demolished EVERYTHING that Donnell Hewett, Dennis Pagen, Jerry Forburger, Rob Kells, Bobby Bailey, Bill Moyes, Dave Glover, Matt Taber, Peter Birren, Steve Wendt, Trisa Tilletti, Stuart Caruk, Wills Wing, Ridgely, USHGA, BHPA, HGFA, you name it have EVER said, written, practiced, perpetrated, mandated, dictated, lied about, enforced... Hundreds of people have just had their credibility and reputations most deservedly and permanently DESTROYED. No one will EVER be able to safely get away with this 130 pound Greenspot / lighter-is-always-safer bullshit again.

- People are confused and scared. The foundation of their religion has just crumbled. It's as if somebody just discovered and posted a video of Jesus being / doing something human.

- The High Priest of their religion, Saint James of Ridgely, has just been discovered in a compromising situation with an alter boy. People are starting to pay attention to that man behind the curtain.

- Saint James of Ridgely, I one hundred percent guarantee you, is getting a lot of the hang gliding population really pissed off.

He's telling people who fancy themselves pilots that while they're on the tows that they've paid for that HE's the Pilot In Command of the gliders they've paid and worked very hard to qualify for, they're just passengers, and that if for ANY reason he doesn't feel like towing them then they can go fuck themselves.

A glider jockey would hafta have a very long nose to have it so far up Rooney's ass that that kinda bullshit isn't gonna have his blood boiling instantly.

- Rooney has survived as long as he has because he's always had the protection of the assholes controlling the forums: Davis, Jack (until he started defending paragliding), CHGA... If he keeps on incinerating political capital at the rate he is now his popularity will erode to the point at which Davis will need to cut him loose.

- Rooney's incompetent and a fraud and liar. Sometimes it's hard to tell to what extent he believes his own lies and bullshit but he's scared and desperate now because all he's got to keep him afloat is the hundreds of thousands of tows life raft, that piece of shit is leaking badly, and several dorsal fins have broken the surface nearby.

Keep him talking.

Steve! Come in Steve! Where are you, dude? We really need you now like we've never needed you before. We've got the motherfucker in a crossfire and we need as many guns as we can get.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

"But I love my mouth release! It's super-delux-safe"... that's great, but guess what?

I've towed at places that use different weak links than greenspot. They're usually some other form of fishing line. Up in Nelson (New Zealand), they don't have greenspot, so they found a similar weight fishing line. They replace their link every single tow btw... every one, without question or exception... that's just what the owner wants and demands. Fine by me. If it wasn't, then I wouldn't tow for them and I wouldn't be towed by them. That's his place and he gets to make that call. Pretty simple.

Up at Morningside, they're using that new orange weaklink. It's a bit stronger and it has to be sewn or glued so it doesn't slip when unloaded.

If you're within the FAA specs and you're using something manufactured, then you're going to have a far better time convincing me to tow you.
My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.

So I hope that sheds some light on the situation.
But again, every tuggie's different and every situation is different.
What doesn't change however is that it's my call, not yours.
And it's my job to be the "bad guy" sometimes.
Sorry. It's just the way it is.

Uh... When somebody says, "But guess what?" there's an expectation that an answer to that question will follow. So was there supposed to be an answer somewhere in any of the demented ramblings that followed?

The best candidates, as far as I can determine are:

So I hope that sheds some light on the situation.
But again, every tuggie's different and every situation is different.
What doesn't change however is that it's my call, not yours.
And it's my job to be the "bad guy" sometimes.
Sorry. It's just the way it is.[/quote]
Uh... When somebody says, "But guess what?" there's an expectation that an answer to that question will follow. So was there supposed to be an answer somewhere in any of the demented ramblings that followed?

The best candidates, as far as I can determine are:

Up in Nelson (New Zealand), they don't have greenspot, so they found a similar weight fishing line.

Up at Morningside, they're using that new orange weaklink.

My general rule is "no funky shit".

I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots.

I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release.

Maybe you should try to find a good neurosurgeon and see if there's anything that can be done to retard the rate of deterioration a bit.

So I hope that sheds some light on the situation.

Yep. More and more with each post.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

I've towed at places that use different weak links than greenspot.

REALLY? But I was under the impression that 130 pound Greenspot...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC

Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.

...was the industry standard and/because it's what *WE* use.

So apparently we have a few irregularities with the definitions of "industry standard" and "*WE*". Perhaps you could grace us with some clarifications when you're all caught up on your incoherent babblings.

Up in Nelson (New Zealand), they don't have greenspot...

They don't HAVE Greenspot? What, there's an embargo? New Zealand's got one but...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

...Australia doesn't?

For something this critical to the safety of aerotowing operations I would think that they could pay a thousand bucks to a heroin smuggler to throw a 2500 yard spool in with a shipment. That should be enough to get everybody through a season or two if they use fins and undergo tandem Cone of Safety training.

...so they found a similar weight fishing line.

A SIMILAR weight? Close to the 130 optimum but not quite as good.

So if it's:
- lighter how many more people per capita are being killed in Zack Marzec whipstalls?
- heavier how many more people per capita are being killed in Robin Strid lockouts?

They replace their link every single tow btw... every one, without question or exception...

So through their experience of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of tows they've determined that this "similar" weight fishing line is PERFECT for all gliders - and not a single tow's worth of stress less.

So if a 350 pound glider uses a virgin Nelson Link it's PERFECT for that one tow and after that he's gotta throw it away. He can't give it to a 200 pound glider for her tow because the virgin link is also PERFECT for her.

...that's just what the owner wants and demands.

What's his name and how far through grade school did he get before everyone admitted the futility of the effort and threw in the towel?

Fine by me.

I'm really disappointed in you Jim. I thought you were too principled to use anything but the best.

If it wasn't, then I wouldn't tow for them and I wouldn't be towed by them.

Good luck.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

I hope that when you come back from visiting the victims of this highly irresponsible deviation from this proven industry standard you'll still be able to look at yourself in the mirror - assuming, of course, that it's not YOU who ends up in the hospital.

That's his place and he gets to make that call.

Yeah, isn't it wonderful how nowhere on the planet is a hang glider pilot protected by regulations consistent with the laws of physics and is subject to the whims of whatever local fucking moron decides his gonna run a tug operation.

Pretty simple.

As are the assholes who participate in and tolerate this bullshit.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

Up at Morningside, they're using that new orange weaklink.

What? Does New Hampshire ALSO have an embargo against 130 pound Greenspot? Do their border guards stop cars with gliders on them and unleash their Dacron sniffing dogs?

It's a bit stronger...

It's a bit STRONGER?!?!?!

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/19 14:50:52 UTC

Weak links don't always break in lockout situations... so lets make them stronger? Are you nuts?

ARE THEY *NUTS*?!?!?!

HOW MUCH stronger / more dangerous?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Davis Straub - 2012/08/13 18:08:42 UTC

Used to do 130 lbs. Now do 200 lbs.

This must be the new universal standard Mister Pro Toad has decreed. So a Rooney "bit" is a 54 percent increase. Another 140 pounds of towline. About a half G more for midrange gliders.

So when Rooney is saying "a bit" he is flat out LYING.

So Jim...

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 00:34:14 UTC

YOU are the one arguing with a system that's been in place and has been worked on over quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows.

How come Morningside is arguing with a system that's been in place and has been worked on over quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows?

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC

Every now and then someone comes along with the "new" idea of a stronger weaklink. Eventually, they scare themselves with it and wind up back with one that has a very proven track record. I mean really... no exaggeration... hundreds of thousands of tows.

How long do you figure it'll take them to scare themselves with this "new" idea of a stronger weak link and come back with one that has a very proven track record - I mean really... no exaggeration... hundreds of thousands of tows?

...and it has to be sewn or glued so it doesn't slip when unloaded.

AND it has to be sewn or glued so it doesn't slip when unloaded?!?!?! 54 percent more dangerous AND more of a hassle?! Total insanity.

What's this world coming to? If things continue to deteriorate at this rate we may start seeing people using weak links proportional to their maximum certified operating weights as specified by the manufacturers. And then what would separate us from sailplanes? This is not a world I care to live long enough to see.