Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

Stupid and evil. We can't fix it but we can document, expose it...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=36170
Weak Links?

Bart Weghorst - 2018/09/14 17:58:16 UTC

This forum used to have contributions from people who had a lot of experience with these type of issues. Weak links etc. have been discussed at length before. I cringe when I read that someone wants to do away with the weak link. As a AT regular who teaches this stuff I'd like to add my 3 cents.
-Don't do away with the weak link.
-Use one that is right for your weight/setup.
-Learn to deal with an early disconnect from the towline.
Please understand that the use of weak links does not prevent a lockout. They could help but they really serve a different purpose. I don't like to explain all this here because I think this forum is not a good medium to teach hang gliding subjects like these. When in doubt, consult an experienced AT operator and attend an AT course.

Seahawk - 2018/09/15 05:23:24 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTC

Now I don't give a shit about breaking strength anymore. I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while.

That is just incredible! Remind me not to send anyone to your joy-ride operation, Bart.

Humiliate and permanently shut lotsa these motherfuckers the hell up. (Nine months now and I don't think outside of Kite Strings there's been a single mention of a hang glider weak link anywhere on the web beyond noting an inconvenience here and there.)

Sure would've been nice to get this shit heap on the path towards becoming a legitimate flavor of aviation but I think in the Zack Marzec inconvenience fatality aftermath we all started fully understanding why that could never happen. And Hell's showing no signs whatsoever of starting to freeze over.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Aerotow FAQ

Quest Air Hang Gliding

Weak Link

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.

IMPORTANT - It should never be assumed that the weak link will break in a lockout.
ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem.

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air.

Yeah that sure sounds CRUCIAL. Must have taken y'all literally tens of thousands of trail and error test flights before you were able to determine that a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line on the end of the towline would hit that magic CRUCIAL point at which it would break before the pressure of the towline would reach a level that would compromise the handling of the glider but would be strong enough so that it would only break about one out of three times you flew into a bit of rough air.

So how many test pilots did you kill on the 140 pound Greenspot? And what were the inconvenience stats on the 120?

A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G...

A good rule of thumb? The strength of the weak link is CRUCIAL to a safe tow but now we're talking about a good rule of THUMB? Anybody's thumb in particular? Bobby Bailey's - who's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit? English or metric?

...or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider.

Single or double surface? Doubles lift more efficiently and are smaller for the same hook-in weights. And this is a CRUCIAL safety issue with CRUCIAL tolerances so let's make sure we get all our terms properly defined.

Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider.

What do the other flight parks use?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink.

And what decreases and increases in fatality rates are we seeing?

For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line...

And here I was thinking that we either all played by the same rules or we didn't play. Isn't it much more CRUCIAL for tandems to use the same crucial rule of thumb implemented with the same crucial fishing line configuration?

...is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading.

Oh. A double loop of 130 pound Greenspot or one loop of some unspecified stronger line is USUALLY used in this CRUCIAL application. Sounds good to me. So again... Tell us about some of the UNusual configurations and the less than sterling results they're getting.

When attaching the weak link to the bridle...

What bridle? I thought we were putting it on the end of the towline to achieve the limit on the towline pressure level at which the handling of the glider remains uncompromised. Doesn't that put us up to nearly twice that CRUCIAL level? Wouldn't they have been fuckin' TOAST a long time ago?

...position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.

Sounds to me like it really needs to be included in the equation - get things dialed back a bit towards breaking every time you fly into a bit of rough air.

IMPORTANT - It should never be assumed that the weak link will break in a lockout.

Really? The same good rule of thumb that WILL break once in a while when you fly into a bit of rough air WON'T necessarily break in a lockout?

Jerry Forburger - 1990/10

High line tensions reduce the pilot's ability to control the glider and we all know that the killer "lockout" is caused by high towline tension.

(He means towline PRESSURE. That's what they used to call it...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Cragin Shelton - 2011/09/03 23:57:33 UTC

Nice Reference Citation

Ridgerodent:
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release."- Richard Johnson

Do you REALLY think that there has been no progress in knowledge about the practical applied physics and engineering of hang gliding in 37 years? OR that an early, 3+ decade old, information book written by a non-pilot is a solid reference when you have multiple high experience current instructors involved in the discussion?

(Poynter had a successful book about parachuting, and in 1973 saw the nascent sport of hang gliding as another topic he could write about. His forte is how to write non-fiction books, not hang gliding, or even adventure sports in general. See "Writing Nonfiction.Turning Thoughts into Books," Dan Poynter, 2000.)

...in the old days.)

ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem.

Well alright, if you say so. But the only way we can really ALWAYS do that is to make the easy reach to our Industry Standard release before we've lifted off the cart. Most of the time we can get away with releasing the instant we see the tug getting bounced around a little in a bit of rough air but it's CRUCIAL that we use a weak link that only blows every now and then when we fly into a bit of rough air. And your neighbor - the flight park off of which you assholes split to establish Quest - just twenty-couple crow flight miles to the SSE - assures us that:

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2019/06/27

A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

Is that not "most flight parks"? Sounds like THEIR weak link is doing a much better job than YOUR weak link? So shouldn't we be flying down there on their much safer weak links which are automatically doing EXACTLY what you're trusting to the skill of the individual pilot? And:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

You're 100% onto it... relying on the skill of the pilot is a numbers game that you'll lose at some point.

Sounds like you guys are trading off safety for the sake of convenience.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/17 06:07:35 UTC

This is the earliest justification I can find of Greenspot's universal use. It's so full of fallacy that it and other statements (some previously mentioned) from the supposed experts have led me to conclude that there is no logical reason for its universal use. And since:

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 00:34:14 UTC

"We" don't need to justify jack.

it looks like that conclusion will remain.

Let's use 1994 as a reasonably safe posting date for this load of astronomically clueless crap. I find myself totally unable to get into the head of whatever douchebag it was who committed it to print - minus his name on the document. We know it's not Bobby 'cause there's not a punctuation mark's worth of evidence anywhere that he's ever put a ghost of a thought into print.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC

Did I miss any?
Is it clear what I mean by "We"?
I didn't make the system up.
And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)

Yeah Jim. Enough of a fucking genius that he knows enough to keep his mouth shut. That's why he's still a fucking genius and nobody's ever heard of you before.

Sounds kinda like:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

Lauren here. In general, the weak link on the glider end will break before the one on the plane. However, my glider's main weak link was wrapped in a huge bunch around the 'biner, therefore it did not break. I also had a secondary weak link on my shoulder (which does not take as much force), but the plane's link broke first. Really, it was just half a second (or less) until the break, and the backups worked as they should.

I just thought it was very interesting the way the line wrapped and thought it was a good reminder for all pilots who aerotow to keep their weak links short.

Also, a tandem weak link is doubled, due to the much greater tow forces on it due to its much greater weight. Technically the tow plane's weak link will break sooner than the tandem's will. Of course what happens in reality is not exactly what happens in principle -- though it WAS what happened in this case.

Had the plane's weak link not broken, I would have been left towing from my shoulders, which would have been okay. I could have released from my barrel release on my shoulders or Paul could have given me the rope. Had all else failed, I could have used my hook knife.

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

I rarely break weak links -- in fact, I believe the last one was some two years ago, and I have never broken one on a tandem (probably because I am light and also because I change them whenever they show any signs of wear). They are a good thing to have, though!!

Just a regurgitation of the Hewett based Industry Standard crap with no part of the brain engaged beyond the recall stuff.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

Lauren here. In general, the weak link on the glider end will break before the one on the plane. However, my glider's main weak link was wrapped in a huge bunch around the 'biner, therefore it did not break. I also had a secondary weak link on my shoulder (which does not take as much force), but the plane's link broke first. Really, it was just half a second (or less) until the break, and the backups worked as they should.

I just thought it was very interesting the way the line wrapped and thought it was a good reminder for all pilots who aerotow to keep their weak links short.

Also, a tandem weak link is doubled, due to the much greater tow forces on it due to its much greater weight. Technically the tow plane's weak link will break sooner than the tandem's will. Of course what happens in reality is not exactly what happens in principle -- though it WAS what happened in this case.

Had the plane's weak link not broken, I would have been left towing from my shoulders, which would have been okay. I could have released from my barrel release on my shoulders or Paul could have given me the rope. Had all else failed, I could have used my hook knife.

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

I rarely break weak links -- in fact, I believe the last one was some two years ago, and I have never broken one on a tandem (probably because I am light and also because I change them whenever they show any signs of wear). They are a good thing to have, though!!

Lauren here. In general...

In general? What the fuck does that mean?

...the weak link on the glider end will break before the one on the plane.

They're BOTH PLANES - you idiot. The one on the front is called the TUG. The one on the back is the GLIDER. (But I suppose you could swap that around without too much trouble - seeing as how our towlines transmit pressure.)

However, my glider's main weak link was wrapped in a huge bunch around the 'biner, therefore it did not break.

- Translation...



We're too fucking incompetent to configure the focal point of our safe towing system - after, quite literally, hundreds of thousand of tows - such that it actually does what it's supposed to.

- Bullshit.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC

I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened). When forces are achieved that do break a 3 strand, your tail gets yanked around very hard, which does have implications as to the flight characteristics and flightpath. AKA, I have no desire to allow you to have the ability to have that effect on me when I tow you... esp near the ground.

It wouldn't have broken anyway. Seventh post into the thread:

Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC

Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly 20 years and I can say that the steel ring, polished or not, has a greater tendency to wrap than the small aluminum carabiners. There are other obvious reasons a heavy steel ring is not a great idea swinging around at the end of a 250 foot line.

On the chest line we normally run a double weak link on one end just as we do with the primary. This is probably not the optimum situation and can and does lead to the weak link on the Dragonfly tow bridle breaking before that one will break. Having the rope is not a big problem if you have altitude but can be an issue down low. Although it is easy to get rid of with the chest barrel release, perhaps we will reduce the strength of the chest weak link to one loop. It's always a balancing act. It's no fun having an inadvertent low weak link break when you are low so we don't want this weak link too weak.

That's Paul saying they're using three strand up front without actually saying they're using three strand up front. And let's look at the history of this bullshit...

http://ozreport.com/5.126
Flytec Dragonfly

USAFlytec - 2001/07/14

Steve Kroop - Russell Brown - Bob Lane - Jim Prahl - Campbell Bowen

The tail section of the Dragonfly is designed so that it can accept in-line as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive in-line or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle. More simply put, the mast would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.

Un fucking believable.

The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle.

"ROUGHLY" "EQUIVALENT". Not even just a bit stronger. Sometimes the seven and a half cent double loop of precision Dacron fishing line blows first, other times it's the $250 tow mast that increases the safety of the tandem towing operation. The important things are that the tandem is no longer trying to make more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow and there's no structural damage to the front end aircraft. (One might believe the tow mast would be considered part of the structure of the aircraft...

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC

I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened).

...but one would be wrong.)

Here's the very first public acknowledgement that the accepted standards and practices with respect to the front end have suddenly changed:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Brian Vant-Hull - 2008/11/13 19:18:04 UTC

BTW, a highly experienced source who wishes to stay anonymous (call him "Deepfloat") because he doesn't want to get entangled in the name calling (we're all tired of it), has a very interesting point to make.

Deepfloat says the reason 3 strings are used on the tug end instead of 4 is because experience has shown that a 4 strand breaking strength causes damage to equipment, the tug being a far more complex mechanism than a glider. Using a 4 strand weaklink on a glider as advocated for heavier pilots effectively means you don't have a weaklink and will end up with the rope.

Highly experienced source who wishes to stay anonymous Deepfloat is very obviously a very thinly disguised Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney. He hasn't been able to engage me directly since:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3035
Tad's Barrel Release and maybe an alternative

Jim Rooney - 2008/02/25 02:59:11 UTC

Tad thinks a bit too highly of himself and generally detests everyone else.

But yeah, no argument on the asshole part.
I'm a pretty easy going guy and he irritates me to no end.
(which is why I now block his posts)

'cause he knows I'll continue to kick his fuckin' ass if he does.

2002/08/17 a Dragonfly tow mast increases the safety of the towing operation at Fort Langley, British Columbia and the tandem instructor and his student - William Allen Woloshyniuk and Victor Douglas Cox respectively - were both killed instantly at the bottom of a thousand foot inconvenience stall. 2005/09/03 Arlan Birkett and Jeremiah Thompson are both killed when the focal point of a non Dragonfly tug's safe towing system blows. Not to mention 1996/07/25 Bill Bennett and Mike Del Signore.

These motherfuckers KNOW they've launched a BIG PROBLEM for themselves with this piece o' shit Dragonfly / Rotax powered flying weak link. If they fix the problem they really open themselves up to a lot of negligent homicide charges. The safer (il)legal strategy:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20 UTC

Btw, it's nothing to do with you "counting" on the weaklink breaking... Its about me not trusting you to hit the release.
If it were only about what you want, then you could use what you like.
You want the strongest weaklink you can have.
I want you to have the weakest one practical.. I don't care how much it inconveniences you.
I don't trust you as a rule. You Trust you , but I don't and shouldn't.

Keep making the weak links even safer. Also...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.

Make sure that valid figures for actual weak link strengths are never recognized and accepted.

Another issue... When a Dragonfly loses the instructor and student due to the success of the breakaway towmast and lands with the jagged stub projecting up towards where most of it used to be it very clearly reveals the Dragonfly to be the dangerously underbuilt piece o' crap that it actually is. When it comes back minus the towline it looks a lot more like everything worked smoothly - exactly as it was carefully designed to. Student got too low on the tug, started overwhelming its control, weak link did exactly what it was supposed to, a third of the personnel and half the planes (the WAY more expensive plane) returned to base unscathed. (And two potential witnesses for the prosecution are permanently silenced.)

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13 19:47:26 UTC

The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.

Very sad - but could've been a lot worse.

The Flight Park Mafia did NOT want it publicized that they'd dumbed down the front end weak link by what they assumed would be 25 percent. Likewise they wouldn't have wanted it publicized that they'd beefed up the front end if they'd decided to something moderately decent for something completely new and different. But Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney wouldn't take the hints and keep his stupid fuckin' mouth shut 'cause...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 23:38:01 UTC

It's not "uncharted territory"... you're just not aware of what's been done. Just as you weren't aware of the reason for 3 strand links on the tug.

...he couldn't resist impressing everyone with his intelligence and the depth and breadth of his AT expertise.

Go back and find one other insider asshole making noise about the three-strander and/or timing of the switch.

Go through the 35 posts of this thread and find any references regarding strength or number of strands with respect to the three weak links involved in this one beyond:

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

Also, a tandem weak link is doubled, due to the much greater tow forces on it due to its much greater weight.

which we already knew anyway from the photo:



in her/the first post.

Watch how carefully Paul dodges the issue:

Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC

On the chest line we normally run a double weak link on one end just as we do with the primary. This is probably not the optimum situation and can and does lead to the weak link on the Dragonfly tow bridle breaking before that one will break.

Whatsamatta Paul? Can't count to three? And this is the better part of three years after Rooney's shot his stupid mouth off.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/11/20 22:50:53 UTC

Tad gave Paul a couple of HIS links while we were at the ECCs this year. Paul used them happily ( without any situation that might cause a problem) until one day at Zapata in rough air while he was attempting to adjust his VG. Paul locked out badly and the link didn't break. The double weak-link attached to the tug plane BROKE because the forces were so extreme. Russell quoted afterward that he'd never had his tail pulled around so violently. Luckily, Paul's glider was not stressed to the point of failure, and Paul was able to drop the rope and landed safely.

The date on that was 2008/07/20. So IF that was indeed a four strander we know that they'd snuck in the threes subsequent to that date and almost undoubtedly well prior to the end of Ridgley’s season in October. A three month window.

And now that I think about it... If I were Russell...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC

See, Russel knows what's up.
He knows that you're changing the equation and because of this, you need to ask the tug pilot.

...and thus too much of a sleazebag to do the job right and beef up the tow mast I'd have gone three strand the next flight to keep from trashing that $250 (non)structural component. (They allowed Paul to go up with the Tad-O-Link. They've undoubtedly also got doubles (similar strengths) going up solo.)

I also had a secondary weak link on my shoulder...

- Why? In case your cheap shit primary bridle wraps at the tow ring? The way, for all intents and purposes, yours just did?

- So why don't you have secondary weak links on BOTH shoulders? Oh yeah...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release

Juan Saa - 2012/10/18 01:19:49 UTC

The normal braking force in pounds for a weak link is around 180, at least that is the regular weak link line used at most aerotow operations. By adding a second weak link to your bridal you are cutting the load on each link by half, meaning that the weak link will not break at the intended 180 pounds but it will need about 360.
If that is what you use and is what your instructor approved then I have no business on interfering, i dont know if you are using the same weak link material but there shoul be only ONE weak link on a tow bridle for it to be effective in breaking before higher loads are put into you and the glider should the glider gets to an attitude or off track so much that the safety fuse of the link is needed to break you free from the tug.

I made the same mistake on putting two weak links thinking that I was adding protection to my setup and I was corrected by two instructors on separate occacions at Quest Air and at the Florida RIdge.

Forget I asked.

...(which does not take as much force)...

- Pressure - pounds per square inch.

- How much pressure does it take? It's the same fuckin' idiot double loop of 130 pound Greenspot isn't it?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Sounds to me like it takes plenty of pressure - even when it's only seeing a bit over a quarter towline at well under primary weak link.

...but the plane's link broke first.

No shit.

Really, it was just half a second (or less) until the break...

After which you and your victim got handed just 250 feet of Spectra towline. And funny we're not hearing anything about how violently Paul got his tail pulled around. Maybe 'cause that issue has a shitload more to do with how far out of line the glider is than how strong any weak link is?

...and the backups worked as they should.

No they didn't.

- First off... The only reason the "backups" came into play at all was due to massive incompetence, negligence, stupidity.

- The tug end blew. That's not a backup. That's the tug's ONLY weak link.

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

I witnessed a tug pilot descend low over trees. His towline hit the trees and caught. His weak link broke but the bridle whipped around the towline and held it fast. The pilot was saved by the fact that the towline broke!

If you fuckin' douchebags had anything in the way of brains you'd have THE weak link at the front end of the towline and it would be impossible to blow it with the glider on the back end. Read the fuckin' FAA regulations you're always bending over backwards to ignore and violate.

- MY secondary weak link would've blown 'cause it's only twenty percent heavier than the top end and it's instantly gonna be seeing nearly twice the load plus the shock factor. (And that's always been way out of the league of you assholes.)

I just thought it was very interesting the way the line wrapped...

I'll bet you did. "OOH!!! Look at that! Who'da ever thunk!"

...and thought it was a good reminder for all pilots who aerotow to keep their weak links short.

A RE minder? Tell me when any of you fuckin' dickheads...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

...have ever MINDED any "pilots" to keep their weak links short? Show me a single photo of an Industry Standard weak link...

29-030127


...that's less than five times the length that it should be. Something that ISN'T a product of...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306296899/


...Tad's Hole In The Ground.

Also, a tandem weak link is doubled, due to the much greater tow forces on it due to its much greater weight.

And make sure not to use any actual numbers to back up whatever you feel like pulling outta your ass. The tug doesn't get more powerful when it's pulling up a tandem. I'm gonna say it's about the same base tension - 155 pounds steady with the 914 turbo boosted - but a slower climb rate due to the extra weight and drag. But you're gonna get higher surges due to issues of drag and inertia.

Technically the tow plane's weak link will break sooner than the tandem's will.

Technically and illegally - since the people who run these things are all total incompetent fucking douchebags.

Of course what happens in reality is not exactly what happens in principle...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC

As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot

...though it WAS what happened in this case.

Pseudointellectual lipstick on a pig.

Had the plane's weak link not broken, I would have been left towing from my shoulders, which would have been okay.

Yeah, what's the worst that could happen...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...towing from your shoulders? And a heavy passenger along for the ride?

I could have released from my barrel release on my shoulders...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

And that's with a little more than half the pressure on it.

...or Paul could have given me the rope.

And fixed whatever was going on back there.

Had all else failed, I could have used my hook knife.

Ain't it nice to discover all your idiot malfunctions at two and a half thousand feet in smooth air.

For whomever asked...

Ridgerodent - AKA Steve Davy. Too much fuckin' trouble to go back to 2011/07/31 16:49:09 UTC and find out?

...about the function of a weak link, it is to...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.

...increase the safety of the towing operation - PERIOD.

...release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable...

- Greater than DESIRABLE? I can't imagine ANY tow force...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

...being desirable. Sounds to me like you're making more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow. And you guys are always towing us with 914s.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

Which brings us to the reason to have a 914 in the first place... you need one.
Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582. 914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain. If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing. Short runways, tall trees, whatever. You've got a 914 to increase your safety margin.

Wouldn't the 582s be so much safer? Not to mention cheaper?

- So what's stopping someone from using a RELEASE to RELEASE the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable? You've got two alleged pilots and two alleged releases available for task - ferchrisake.

- Nobody EVER releases from a tow when the tow forces become greater than desirable. We desire all the tow forces we can get...

10-03323
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2928/14397296584_1d0e5e389b_o.png


...'specially in aero. That would be like bailing from a thermal 'cause the lift's too strong and you're going up too fast. We release ONLY when we're locking or locked out. And that virtually never happens down in the kill zone to a competent two pointer. And there's no such thing as a competent one pointer.

- Furthermore... The tension tends not to increase all that fuckin' much during the period at which the lockout is progressing to the lethal point.

37-1505

40-1512

50-1623

55-1712


That's why weak links are virtually one hundred percent USELESS as lockout protectors. Up high they make awesome instant hands free releases. Down where they're keeping score you're absolutely FUCKED.

...whether that is due to a lockout...

Way up high you're not gonna hit the ground either before or for a while after the focal point of your safe towing system increases the safety of the towing operation. See above. (Also notice just how severely the trike was affected by that one.)

...or a malfunction of equipment or whatever.

- Sorry Lauren, I don't DO malfunctions of equipment or whatever. I've read too many fatality reports in which the Infallible Weak Link didn't do shit to compensate for malfunctions of equipment or whatever. And assholes who go up with total crap Industry Standard equipment or whatever get exactly what they deserve.

- Would a weak link that broke at the worst possible time, when the glider was climbing hard in a near stall situation...

Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation"...

...count as an equipment malfunction? And if so, what's your Plan B gonna be?

This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

Really?

Had the plane's weak link not broken, I would have been left towing from my shoulders, which would have been okay. I could have released from my barrel release on my shoulders or Paul could have given me the rope. Had all else failed, I could have used my hook knife.

- Which part of that is supposed to be beyond the capabilities of us mere muppets? (And we all know that we can use our razor-sharp cutting tools to slash through our lines in an instant.)

- Cite a single instance from the entire history of hang glider aerotowing in which a hook knife has ever had any effect other than producing a little extra weight and drag.

- We have an account from you of running a lockout emergency drill with only a little over a quarter towline tension going to your cheap shit bent pin barrel backup release and you found it totally inoperable (which may have been what kept you and your check ride pilot from getting your stupid asses killed. What would you be doing different in this prospective emergency situation? The same thing with twice the loading and expecting better results?

- At Quest within under five years of you writing this two professional pilots are gonna not get off tow when they get too far out of whack. Neither of their Quest tug drivers - Mark Frutiger and April Mackin - are gonna release them. No hook knives came out. Both of their Appropriate / Industry Standard Weak Links increase the safety of the towing operations precisely when they were supposed to. Both of them stalled. Zack was dead on arrival and Jeff was dead upon impact.

Lauren Tjaden - 2013/02/03

Yesterday at Quest we lost our good friend, Zach Marzec, in a hang gliding accident. We are all in shock and heartbroken here and are all pulling together to support his girlfriend, Clara.

Any thoughts? (Just kidding.}

I rarely break weak links...

Rarely. But hell, it's a pretty big deal to have your life saved even just rarely.

in fact, I believe the last one was some two years ago...

Sounds like your number's about to come up again. If I were you I'd dumb them down about five or ten percent.

...and I have never broken one on a tandem (probably because I am light and also because I change them whenever they show any signs of wear).

Doesn't sound like a very safe strategy to me. I'm way the hell safer than you are on a Standard Aerotow Weak Link. Have you thought about 115 pound Greenspot? No, wait...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.

Once again, it's the women who get discriminated against. Some things just never change - 'specially in these testosterone poisoned male dominated sports.

And...

...because I am light...

Yeah?

Also, a tandem weak link is doubled, due to the much greater tow forces on it due to its much greater weight.

So how 'bout you - instead of Mitch - and li'l Nathan Cox?

7-14522
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5517/14036301121_17849a6a04_o.png


Minimum flying weight for a Falcon 3 Tandem is 256 pounds. I fly at 320 on my HPAT 158. So what does that do to your appropriate lockout protector calculations?

They are a good thing to have, though!!

And they're handed out for free at the flight line! Can't get much more bang for the buck than that anywhere! The last snake oil I purchased was eighty bucks an ounce.

Thanks bigtime for the gold mine, Lauren. How's tricks with you and Paul nowadays?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/5.126
Flytec Dragonfly

Steve Kroop, Russell Brown, Bob Lane, Jim Prahl, Campbell Bowen - 2001/07/15

Regarding the lateral strength of the tail section of the DF. The tail section of the DF is designed so that it can accept inline as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive inline or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway of the mast is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle More simply put, the mast of the DF would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.

And after that...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

I witnessed a tug pilot descend low over trees. His towline hit the trees and caught. His weak link broke but the bridle whipped around the towline and held it fast. The pilot was saved by the fact that the towline broke!

...you total fucking morons can count on the two thousand pound Spectra towline breaking in the unimaginably remote probability of the tow line or ring catching on something on the surface.

And in that instance the snag would've probably have been on something fairly solid. If it had been out on a long tapering limb there could've been a fishing pole effect. Shock absorption, Dragonfly pulled down and totaled, driver killed.

And there still would've been no fix to comply with the aerotowing regs/SOPs. Never fix an idiot issue that has just killed or come close to killing someone and thus reveal your incompetence and criminal negligence. Also never fix an idiot issue that HASN'T just killed or come close to killing someone - for the same reason.

It was mentioned that pilots have been injured as a result of sudden line release. My self, as well as the 4 other experienced tug pilots watching over my shoulder as I type this, are unaware of anyone who has gotten into trouble as a result of a sudden line release. In fact, a sudden line release would only alleviate any problems a tow pilot may be experiencing. Incidents of tug pilots incorrectly chopping power should not be confused with a sudden line release.

I've been misinterpreting that poorly written part all these years. Doesn't matter all that much 'cause the misinterpretation is totally consistent with their position and practices. But they're talking about the FRONT end. And in that context it's duh level accurate. (Stupid semiliterate shits.)

It was mentioned that pilots have been injured as a result of sudden line release.

They HAVE you dumb fucks. In droves. No shortage of fatalities either - including doubles.

No wait...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.

BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

The guys on the back end are PASSENGERS. Sorry, my bad.

My self, as well as the 4 other experienced tug pilots watching over my shoulder as I type this, are...

...also all too fucking stupid to understand that "My self" is one word. And "I" would've been a better choice anyway - even if "I" hasn't bothered to identify himself. Pretty safe bet it's Kroop though. None of the other four motherfuckers has ever been stupid enough to put anything in print anywhere before.

...unaware of anyone who has gotten into trouble as a result of a sudden line release.

Me neither.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

Not since Donnell came along at the beginning of the Eighties and eliminated the concept of a bad pin man and declared rope breaks and premature releases to be the best things going for the tow pilot.

In fact, a sudden line release would only alleviate any problems a tow pilot may be experiencing.

Yep. Fixes whatever's going on back there - unless you're trying to make more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

Incidents of tug pilots incorrectly chopping power should not be confused with a sudden line release.

Nah...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

Chopping power for the tug works for the tug...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...the polar opposite of the way it does...

08-1105
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8428/29011379675_c77d48dd84_o.png


...for the glider.

And here's the asshole to whom these assholes are responding (I've finally realized):

http://ozreport.com/5.125
Double trouble

Barbara Flynn - 2001/07/13

Rhett is an excellent pilot, but we have seen other excellent pilots in tugs get killed or seriously injured as a result of the sudden and abrupt stall that occurs when the Dragonfly is in the extreme nose up position and the glider being towed is suddenly released. If this occurs at or below 500 ft., there is just not enough room for the Dragonfly to recover from the stall before it hits the ground.

Yeah Barbara. When a 912 Dragonfly pulling a glider at full power suddenly loses 150 pounds of drag it STALLS. Polar opposite of what happens with the glider. The safety of the towing operation for the passenger undergoes an instantaneous dramatic increase.

How do people this incredibly clueless and stupid ever manage to score One ratings? And what does that tell us about the instruction, instructors, Pilot Proficiency System?

[<BS>]

It was mentioned that pilots have been injured as a result of sudden line release. My self, as well as the 4 other experienced tug pilots watching over my shoulder as I type this, are unaware of anyone who has gotten into trouble as a result of a sudden line release. In fact, a sudden line release would only alleviate any problems a tow pilot may be experiencing. Incidents of tug pilots incorrectly chopping power should not be confused with a sudden line release.

And then this happened.
Pokhara Dragonfly
http://www.kitestrings.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=97

[Steve Davy]

Rhett is an excellent pilot, but we have seen other excellent pilots in tugs get killed or seriously injured as a result of the sudden and abrupt stall that occurs when the Dragonfly is in the extreme nose up position and the glider being towed is suddenly released.

A reasonable conclusion what with all that pressure on the towline.

[Tad Eareckson]

Brian...

Yeah, I'd been thinking about that one as I wrote. But I put it in a category similar to but even beyond:

Capt. Peter Boffelli - 2015/03/27
Metro Traffic Bureau

The glider was supposed to release the tether from the truck itself. Apparently that tether release did not occur. So what occurred was when that truck turned around thinking that the tether was released the glider itself plummeted straight to the ground.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8819/18267685796_64156e9c91_o.png


He was overloaded, started climbing out too steeply, stalled, chopped power. Maybe there was an elevator control issue but I'm sure we know as much as we're ever going to and none of it really matters in the big picture - any more than the 2018/06/02 Dan Buchanan Mountain Home show did. We know how to not get into the situations they did.

Still is great though that to this day not one of those motherfuckers from anywhere on the planet - particularly Steve Kroop, Russell Brown, Bob Lane, Jim Prahl, Campbell Bowen, Davis, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney (and might as well add Bobby Bailey and Bill Moyes) - has ever taken the least issue with that report.

Steve...

Yeah, when that much towline pressure is being held by the release all bets are off when you pull that lever.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Tad Eareckson - 2008/11/13 18:05:42 UTC

As for logic... Everybody and his dog is still mass producing curved pin releases. You KNOW what the consequences of that are. Logic hasn't got a prayer. It's gonna take something more.

Brian Vant-Hull - 2008/11/13 19:18:04 UTC

Yes, it will take something else. But the approach you always slide into is not it. I think Matthew pointed out what needed to be done. But if you write articles nobody will listen unless you write with some humility.

BTW, a highly experienced source who wishes to stay anonymous (call him "Deepfloat") because he doesn't want to get entangled in the name calling (we're all tired of it), has a very interesting point to make.

Deepfloat says the reason 3 strings are used on the tug end instead of 4 is because experience has shown that a 4 strand breaking strength causes damage to equipment, the tug being a far more complex mechanism than a glider. Using a 4 strand weaklink on a glider as advocated for heavier pilots effectively means you don't have a weaklink and will end up with the rope.

The other point Deepfloat makes is that while doing lockout training, the weaklink often will break during the maneuver, despite any physical analysis that says typical tow forces will not be exceeded. Having done many physical analysis myself, I know how frail the chain of assumptions can be. Deepfloat's conclusion is that making weaklinks too much stronger may result in cases where the link could have saved a pilot from a lockout because things happen so fast.

In my particular field of research, the modelers always trust the experimental data, while the experimentalists are cautious with their own data but tend to put too much trust in the model results. This is because each group are honest scientists who know how easy it is to screw things up so are skeptical of their own results.

Tad, you sow doubt because you think you are absolutely right. This is intellectually dishonest. You will be better served by trying to knock down your own house of cards. You give the idea lip service by challenging people to offer counter examples, then proceed to ignore them.

In view of Deepfloat's observations I would say that your scaled stronger weaklink ideas make sense up to an upper limit where the tug is put in jeopardy. After that it just sucks to be heavy.

Yes, it will take something else.

Yep, it will. And we're gonna get it in another four and quarter years. And "it" will be a Flight Park Mafia pro toad Kool Kid getting fatally splattered at Quest after an inconvenience whipstall and tumble. And at least three of the players in these discussions are gonna be pretty closely involved. Too fuckin' bad we couldn't do it the smart and easy way.

But the approach you always slide into is not it.

This isn't the approach I slide into. This is THE approach. There just wasn't the requisite critical mass of non douchebags in this crappy little local clubs corner of yours. Took an international team effort to beat Rooney to an unrecognizable pulp. Thanks for nuthin'.

I think Matthew...

Fuck Matthew.

...pointed out what needed to be done.

Then he should've done it himself, shouldn't he? Added it to the long list of reforms he's driven through over the years.

But if you write articles nobody will listen...

I got people listening. I got:
- u$hPa to first dumb down their SOPs and then put them off limits to public viewing
- Lloyds of London to make sure you motherfuckers couldn't get insurance at any price - ever again

...unless you write with some humility.

Fuck humility. Talking to you dregs it would be nothing but grotesque dishonesty.

BTW, a highly experienced source who wishes to stay anonymous...

- A HIGHLY EXPERIENCED Dragonfly aerotowing source who follows the Capitol Club rag. Oh how I wonder whom that could POSSIBLY be. Watch this trick:

-- 2008/10/29 16:20:20 UTC - Jim Rooney - last appearance before first appearance of Deepfloat
-- 2008/11/13 19:18:04 UTC - Deepfloat - courtesy Brian Vant-Hull - appearance - first
-- 2008/11/20 13:16:41 UTC - Deepfloat - courtesy Brian Vant-Hull - appearance - last
-- 2008/11/20 22:25:38 UTC - Jim Rooney - first appearance after last appearance of Deepfloat

ZERO overlap. (Big fuckin' surprise.)

- Name one thing anybody in this game has and should've ever learned through EXPERIENCE. We're supposed to be trained and certified based on knowledge of aeronautical THEORY and ability to physically execute. Show me ANYTHING in ANY SOPs to indicate anything otherwise. Take experience and shove it up your ass - highly.

...who wishes to stay anonymous...

Fuck anybody who wishes to stay anonymous for any reason other than fear of losing access. I'd have told the son of a bitch to fuck off - to post under his own identity if he wanted to be heard. I can't think of a single other example of this Deepfloat bullshit from anywhere in the history of hang gliding communications - from back in the day of paper, articles, letters to the editor up to the present. And that also goes for Rooney itself.

...(call him "Deepfloat")...

I'll call him a highly experienced totally incompetent egomaniacal stupid cowardly lying little shit by the name of Jim Rooney - 'cause that's what and who he actually is. And fuck you for not doing the same, Brian.

...because he doesn't want to get...

...directly engaged in combat with anybody who knows what the fuck he's talking about 'cause he knows he'll get his balls ripped off and shoved down his throat - the way he did by Team Kite Strings in the aftermath of 2013/02/02.

...entangled in the name calling (we're all tired of it)...

Really?
- Suck my dick, Brian. Ditto for the rest of the hang gliding cult in that neck of the woods.
- Please list the Capitol Club assholes who authorized you to speak on their behalf.
- And hell, I was about the only participant in the "discussions" who had much of anything of substance to say anyway.

...has a very interesting point to make.

The little shit has never had and will never have a mildly interesting point to make on any issue at any point in his miserable existence.

Deepfloat says the reason 3 strings are used on the tug end instead of 4 is because experience has shown that a 4 strand breaking strength causes damage to equipment...

Oh. EXPERIENCE has shown that? And here I was thinking that...

http://ozreport.com/5.126
Flytec Dragonfly

Steve Kroop, Russell Brown, Bob Lane, Jim Prahl, Campbell Bowen - 2001/07/15

Regarding the lateral strength of the tail section of the DF. The tail section of the DF is designed so that it can accept inline as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive inline or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway of the mast is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle More simply put, the mast of the DF would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.

...the "EOUIPMENT" had been DESIGNED to do that before the first Dragonfly had gotten airborne about a decade prior to the beginning of this thread. And, people of varying ages, note that the Quest division of the Flight Park Mafia's post precedes this discussion by a period of well over seven years.

...the tug being a far more complex mechanism than a glider.

- I got news for ya - douchebag. The tug isn't a MECHANISM. It's a fucking AIRCRAFT.

- And yeah, the more COMPLEX you make the mechanism the more likely any given component is to fail (or, in the special case of any weak link component, succeed). Fuckin' F/A-18 is about twenty thousand times more complex than a Dragonfly. That's how come their tail hooks snap off about once every third or fourth touchdown on the deck.

- Tell me what's so fucking complex...

2-03827
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7322/14036305191_79293b81e8_o.png

070-031710
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1882/30298314578_3bfb639ce4_o.png

159-075804
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1857/44117114532_1ba05b812e_o.png

245-120609
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1894/44165015511_08996110a4_o.png

306-153307
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1884/43259861725_930e754725_o.png


...about the relevant back end stuff on the Dragonfly - or, for that matter, anything else on the Dragonfly save for the engine.

- Regarding that first photo (from Quest in a 2012/04/11 video by Casey Cox)... Am I the only one to whom that tow mast looks bent at the stay cable bolt connection? Looks like we need to pull another strand off the front end weak link. Use the same weak link for a heavy tandem pull that we do for Karen.

- There's no "EQUIPMENT" on the back end that can get damaged other than what Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey designed to be damaged - in order, of course, to increase the safety of the towing operation. Bobby didn't care whether it was the double loop of precision fishing line or the tow mast. So why should anyone else? Something blows you just slap on a fresh one and go back up.

- Just realized what ACTUALLY happened with this.

EXPERIENCE my ass. If you're designing an aircraft - or anything else - to do a job you engineer and TEST it to make sure that it's up to the job plus thirty percent. Wills Wing, for example, overloads the hell outta all their carbon outboard leading edge spars. The defective ones explode. The survivors become glider components.

Those Bailey-Moyes assholes - along with Wills Wing and everybody else - were and are totally clueless about what a weak link is and didn't even bother to test the crap they mandated to see if it was anywhere close to being what they said it was. But let's say a two hundred pound double loop on the bridle WAS the heaviest you'd want for a tandem.

So you find a loop of cord that blows at three hundred, secure it to the top of the mast, connect it to an aircraft tie-down anchor with a 250 foot Spectra towline Figure 8 coiled at Ground Zero. Then you floor the tug and see how things work out when everything snaps tight with you up to thirty miles per hour.

But they just ASSUMED their weak link would be the weak link. They were damaging tow masts - and they killed a tandem instructor and student when the breakaway tow mast inconvenienced the ride on 2002/08/17. Fix the problem? Yeah right. Took them another eight years to figure out that the solution was to make the problem worse and establish it as Standard Operating Procedure.

And I just remembered hanging out with Sunny one morning at the back end of one of their Dragonflies, looking at a distorted tow mast, discussing what to do about it.

Problem... I "remember" the tow mast extension as being a tapered carbon rod. But that's not what I'm seeing in the photos. False memory? Or did they reconfigure 'cause the extension was stronger than the tubing in which it was installed?

Using a 4 strand weaklink on a glider as advocated for heavier pilots effectively means you don't have a weaklink and will end up with the rope.

- Ain't it great for the lighter pilots to be able to both fly with higher G weak links and NOT get the rope. Just two of the wonderful products of...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.

...everybody playing by the same rules.

- So how come these total fucking morons don't use something on the back end EQUIVALENT to what's on the front? It would still be stupid - not to mention a flagrant violation of FAA AT regs - but at least the tandem would only get the rope half the time.

The other point Deepfloat makes is that while doing lockout training...

WHAT "lockout training"? I never had it. There's NEVER been anything about lockout training or requirements anywhere in the SOPs for ANY flavor of towing. EVERYTHING in the requirements has to do with staying as far away from a lockout situation as possible - with the exception of Trisa's boxing the Cone of Safety total bullshit. Oh. And also the requirement for easily reachable releases which ensure that if you're in a low level lockout hitting the ground is about the only way you'll be able to stop one.

Anybody ever hear anyone praising his instructor for putting him through those rigorous lockout drills and thus getting him properly trained to deal with anything Mother Nature was...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG

...capable of throwing at him? What a total load o' crap.

...the weaklink often will break during the maneuver...

- Oh. THAT's lockout training. Go up tandem to two thousand feet in smooth morning air, roll it away from the tug, wait for the Standard Aerotow Weak Link to increase the safety of the towing operation. Got it.

- I got news for ya, Brian...

maneuver - a movement or series of moves requiring skill and care

Rolling a glider on its ear the port or starboard to the point that tow can't be recovered doesn't constitute a "MANEUVER". Generally speaking we don't do maneuvers on hang gliders - save for aerobatics, running pylons, setting up really demanding approaches.

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

After a few moments, the glider was seen to move to the side and rapidly turn nose down to fly into the ground, still on tow, in a classic lockout maneuver. The impact was fatal.
...
The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver. I cleared the buildings, but came very close to the ground at the bottom of the wingover.

Pretentious pseudo-intellectual crap.

...despite any physical analysis that says typical tow forces will not be exceeded.

Suck my dick, Brian. NOBODY's ever said "typical" tow forces won't be exceeded in an aero lockout. With the tug going one way and the glider going another there's no way in hell typical tow forces WON'T be exceeded. But also you don't need much in the way of extra tow forces to get stood on your ear or tail and set up for a really bad afternoon. But you don't need to take my word for it...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.

That WAS a lockout - an over-the-top pro toad lockout.

Having done many physical analysis myself...

You should know that the plural of "analysis" is "analyses".

...I know how frail the chain of assumptions can be.

Yeah.

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.

So I've heard. (And you sound just like those two now extinct motherfuckers.)

Deepfloat's conclusion is that making weaklinks too much stronger may result in cases where the link could have saved a pilot from a lockout because things happen so fast.

Yeah...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

Can't get much safer than that. We should probably make them...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20 UTC

Btw, it's nothing to do with you "counting" on the weaklink breaking... Its about me not trusting you to hit the release.
If it were only about what you want, then you could use what you like.
You want the strongest weaklink you can have.
I want you to have the weakest one practical.. I don't care how much it inconveniences you.
I don't trust you as a rule. You Trust you , but I don't and shouldn't.

...fifteen percent lighter to cover that odd glider that makes it up over twenty feet. And for everybody. 'Cause we all play by the same rules or we don't play.

Likewise we should stow our parachutes way less securely 'cause ya just never know when you're really gonna need a fast low altitude deployment.

In my particular field of research...

Writing a formula for getting along with the highest percentage of hang glider people as possible - along the lines of Rob's being a friend to ever pilot he meets.

...the modelers always trust the experimental data, while the experimentalists are cautious with their own data but tend to put too much trust in the model results.

And let's be sure not to go with the sailplane people in which the manufacturer specifies a precise Tost weak link graduation for each model plane based on its max certified operating weight, use it only as an overload protector, never experience breaks save for totally tits up situations.

This is because each group are honest scientists who know how easy it is to screw things up so are skeptical of their own results.

Sure Brian. Let's stay with the one-size-fits-all Standard Aerotow Weak Link due to its extremely long and totally unblemished track record.

Tad, you sow doubt because you think you are absolutely right.

Yeah. Let's go with Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden. Nobody's ever had the slightest problem with either of those douchebags 'cause they've always KNOWN the were absolutely right. Pity they've both totally and permanently vanished from the sport.

This is intellectually dishonest.

With Jim Fuckin' Rooney speaking as Deepfloat through his abettor...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

See, in truck towing, a weaklink does next to nothing for you (unless the line snags).
This is because you're on a pressure regulated system... so the forces never get high enough to break the link.

This is not the case with an aerotow.
This is why the weaklink exists.

The forces of an aerotow can get high enough to tear the wings off the glider.
This is no exaggeration... it can be done.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 06:40:02 UTC

So... if it's *only* purpose is to prevent your glider from breaking apart... which is complete and utter bullshit... but if that was it's only purpose... why then do we have them at all?
Your glider will tear the rope apart before it breaks.
It will tear the towmast off the tug before it breaks.
Your glider is capable of amazing feats of strength... it is in no danger of folding up on you.

...in the conversation.

You will be better served by trying to knock down your own house of cards.

My "house of cards" motherfucker?

You give the idea lip service by challenging people to offer counter examples, then proceed to ignore them.

Counter example - singular:

Janni Papakrivos - 2008/11/03 19:29:05 UTC

A weak link certainly saved my butt on one occasion. I came off the cart crooked in my Litespeed, over-controlled and would have quickly been in a close-to-ground neck-breaking lockout if the weak link hadn't snapped right away. They can't be weak enough in my humble opinion, especially if you fly sluggish top performers.

Tad Eareckson - 2008/11/04 04:20:29 UTC

So how come you didn't release? (Yeah - That's a rhetorical question.)

I didn't ignore the motherfucker. And i don't want douchebags who elect to go up with total crap Industry Standard easily reachable releases - probably pro toad - surviving anyway.



If Zack Marzec had tumbled down into the trees he'd have probably been able to extract himself with nothing more than some scratches and bruises. Hell, even hitting the ground he was still conscious for a while. If he'd gone down in the lake and managed to avoid drowning (and alligators) he could've come out unscathed - and certainly wouldn't have come out any worse than he did.

So how come we haven't heard any discussions about moving the start points upwind to the points that the tug gets off fifty feet prior to the edge of the lake or clears the trees by fifteen feet in order to increase the safety of the towing operation?

Also notice... He comes off the cart CROOKED. Over controls - read oscillates.

Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney can...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Here we go again with more of the "you're better on tow in a bad situation" BS.

Your assumptions about what we're doing on the tug end are wrong.
The #1 thing I can do for you just off the ground is GIVE YOU THE ROPE.

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope. Any work I do is to save the tow and get you back in line... not to save you. I do this only when I think it's safe to do so. When I give you the rope, I've determined that continuing the tow is putting either you or me (or both) in jeopardy and I'm trying to save you (or me).

...fix whatever's going on back there by giving us the rope. But Janni's driver - quite possibly Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney himself - DOESN'T fix whatever's going on back there by giving him the rope. And there's no comment from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney - or anybody else.

So we have a statement from the actual dope that this was one lucky break away from a death or quad - but it wasn't worthy of an incident report of any kind until it happened to get mentioned here to bolster support for this illegally light magic fishing line.

And...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.

Rooney doesn't tell him that just happened to luck out on this one - that the next time he could wind up like Mike Haas, Robin Strid, Steve Elliot, Roy Messing, Zack Marzec, John Claytor. Nah, it worked like it was supposed, long track record, keep on going the way you are, you'll be fine.

In view of Deepfloat's observations I would say that your scaled stronger weaklink ideas make sense...

- In view of DEEPFLOAT's observations? Which ones? They're all over the fuckin' map and they flip every other sentence - the way our current President's do.

- You mean like it's said since the beginning of time for sailplanes and has pretty much always said in the u$hPa SOPs - dickhead?

...up to an upper limit where the tug is put in jeopardy.

- The tug isn't put in jeopardy. Its specially designed redundant weak link is. Read what the Bailey-Moyes/Questie motherfuckers say about it.

More simply put, the mast of the DF would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.

LONG before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur. It's not part of the structure of the aircraft.

- The tug is ALWAYS put in jeopardy. It's ALWAYS in extra jeopardy towing a glider. It's in the MOST jeopardy towing heavy tandems - which is where the Highland Aerosports tandem thrill ride operation makes all its money.

- If you want them REALLY safe then drain the fuel tanks and leave them mothballed in the fuckin' hangar.

- Failing that...

Janni Papakrivos - 2008/11/05 23:03:26 UTC

I probably witnessed 50 broken weak links this summer at Highland.

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
- Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
- Use only the weak links stipulated in your aircraft TCDS or aircraft manual.
- Checking the cable preamble is mandatory according to SBO (German Gliding Operation Regulations); this includes the inspection of weak links.
- Replace the weak link immediately in the case of visible damage.
- Always use the protective steel sleeve.
- We recommend that the weak link insert are replaced after 200 starts: an insert exchanged in time is always safer and cheaper than one single aborted launch.

Oops. That last one was from sailplaning. Plastic links... "Manufactured by Bob". Polar opposite of how things work for hang gliding. Please reinsert your head up your ass and totally ignore it.

One asshole estimates witnessing FIFTY increases in the safety of the towing operation. And statistically all of them will have been with the tow going just fine. So that's fifty totally unnecessary launch and landing cycles. And those assholes were NOT preflighting they're tugs. And we know that from the NTSB report on the one that killed Keavy Nenninger on 2011/07/23 - a bit over two and a half years after the end of this discussion. So even without the preflights Keavy would've lived a couple dozen flights longer just using Janni's numbers alone.

After that it just sucks to be heavy.

It just sucks to be in hang gliding culture. It did when I started in 1980 and it's gone continually south ever since.

[Tad Eareckson]

Bill Bennett, not the Delta Wing Bill Bennett, the Region 9 Director Bill Bennett, a former Grandfather Mountain exhibition pilot who walked on water as far as everyone and his dog in this corner of the country back in that era was concerned, had plugged the Pike County Airport (Waverly, south central Ohio) fly-ins at a Capitol Club meeting as great opportunities to score non ridge assisted thermal time. I didn't need much in the way of persuasion and cruised to the next available with Frank Sauber 1993/05/28.

Tons of new toys for me to play with - fixed line surface, platform, trike aero. And I had an opportunity to do a bit o' front end stuff. The next day, Saturday, I got platform tow driver off my bucket list. Bill's truck, trailer, Bill in the passenger's seat, one Ken Frampton on the back end. I floored it, glider got airborne, when the revs were pretty high I upshifted. And Bill had a fuckin' cow 'cause I hadn't redlined it before.

I was IMMEDIATELY thinking what the fuck. What did he think was gonna happen? We had a ton of metal inertia going well beyond launch speed, glider was climbing, air was light and smooth, there was a second's worth of power interruption that was gonna happen anyway in at most another three seconds, and - it just now occurs to me - he hadn't given any instructions to the contrary to this first-timer prior to starting the roll. What was he thinking I was gonna do?

But yeah. Fly with a one-size-fits-all Standard Aerotow Weak Link that can and does blow all the fuckin' time at random at any point in any tow at any altitude in any conditions under any circumstances and it always increases the safety of the towing operation at the worst possible cost of a bit of inconvenience. And if it's a bit fuzzed even better.

But it was a good thing for Yours Truly that Bill added that performance to his list of ammunition to bolster his categorization of me as a hopelessly dangerous, incompetent, reckless, clueless asshole. (Just like other longtime Region 9 Director Pete Lehmann - who abruptly altered hang gliding history by sanding his knee down to the bone on the runway as a consequence of the focal point of is safe towing system increasing the safety of the towing operation right off the cart.)

'Cause as I've said before when I approached him a bit over three years about getting certified for tandem at the clinic he was gonna run at Gates Airport in the northeast corner of the state he told me I could go fuck myself. (Much more politely than that - but...) And I could've SO easily been alongside him - in place of Mike Del Signore - on that still, hot, humid evening of 1996/07/25.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Matthew Graham - 2008/11/03 18:40:45 UTC

Gee Tad, Sorry I'm not at your beck and call 24/7. I don't always check out every thread on the forum. I've been otherwise pre-occupied the last couple of day. To answer you question, Bill Bennett and the instructor from Ohio were using a piece of nylon cord and not a weaklink.

Right Matthew. The problem was that Bill's weak link didn't break soon enough. Ditto for Dave Farkas's at the front end. Just wasn't their day. And Karen's gonna die 2015/11/08 when SHE stalls a cliff launch. Probably also using a piece of nylon cord that didn't break soon enough.

Checked the other Bill Bennett in the course of prepping this one...

http://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-nov-14-me-bennett14-story.html
Bill Bennett, 73; Helped Popularize Hang Gliding - LA Times

Dennis McLellan - 2004/11/14

Bill Bennett, an Australian who introduced the modern controllable hang glider to the United States in 1969 and helped popularize the fledgling sport through exhibitions and publicity stunts, has died. He was 73.

Bennett, nicknamed the "Birdman," at one time owned Delta Wing Kites and Gliders in Van Nuys, believed to be the world's largest hang glider manufacturing company. He died Oct. 7 in an ultralight accident at Lake Havasu City Airport in Arizona, said Margo Brown, his fiancee.

Bennett, who was being recertified in a powered hang glider, was taking off with instructor Drew Reeves when the glider lost power and dove into the ground, Brown said. Reeves received multiple injuries.

Yet another safety increasing inconvenience stall.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

Nice Reference Citation, huh Cragin?

I was through Lake Havasu a few years back. Of course I'd known about Bill's demise right away but didn't know that that was the Ground Zero till now.
---
2019/07/05 17:10:00 UTC

I never had much of anything in the way of interest in tandem flying - and have pretty much totally despised it for many years now. Just wanted to have the merit badge in my collection.

[Steve Davy]

Listen to this guy's agony and then ask yourself how much you would appreciate an increase in the safety of a towing operation by way of a weak link success. Horrifying!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AadbZ0lABuQ


And:

http://www.kitestrings.org/viewtopic.php?p=11590#p11590
2016/04/03 Tres Pinos fatality

The sooner this sport goes extinct the better.