Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016
1. There is no fuckin' way she should've been towing to three hundred feet as a One. If she had been qualified to do it she should've been signed off as a Two a long time ago. Either way you cut it there was a serious problem with the application of the Pilot Proficiency Program.Ryan Voight - 2016/08/22 05:48:39 UTC
If you are just speaking in generalities, I might agree. But if you are speaking of this case specifically... I'll retort as someone who is strongly suggesting we recognize the pilot was responsible for what happened to the pilot (as if that statement isn't self-sustaining enough)... going off of the only info I have on this, posted by someone near and dear:flysurfski - 2016/08/21 23:38:14 UTC
As a former instructor IMO anyone who suggests that the dead student should take responsibility for this should have their head checked. Really...
Now YES H2 and above and H4 and H5 especially.
If you are going off the "H1" rating, since you say H2 and above *is* totally responsible for themselves... It's safe to assume you are basing that off of knowledge and experienced possessed, rather than what their little card says? Just because she was H1 rated doesn't mean she wasn't more qualified, more experienced, at this type of towing and flying in this spot than most all H2's or H3's would be. Being "only" a H1 doesn't necessarily mean she did not know much (enough), or have much skill or experience... Going off the only direct info given here, she knew what she was doing.ziggyc - 2016/08/18 22:08:22 UTC
...was well versed in the activity and the how and when to use the quick release. There are substantial videos that show she was not only comfortable doing this, but she new what to do, and when to do it.
2. Also doesn't mean she wasn't LESS qualified. All it means is that some u$hPa certified asshole signed a card.
3. Funny Pat Denevan hasn't come forward to bolster this observation, dontchya think?
The Birrenator. Note that at 2016/09/06 16:32:17 UTC Jack Show Time Peter emerged from the rock under which he'd disappeared gawd knows how long ago and has offered zero comment on his Taking-The-Pilot-Out-Of-The-Equation masterpiece and its effectiveness in this incident.And she also knew the risks, that actually added to the fun (as it does for many of you.) From what I've been told, and seen in videos, there are two safety releases in a tow. One of them is operated by the pilot. Should that safety release fail, then there is a backup which is supposed to be a fail safe.
Tell me that Niki checked that bent pin piece o' shit she's using at Tad-O-Link load. Tell me that Davis - who sells and mandates his bent pin piece o' shit at the comps at which guys like Jeff get seriously crashed and killed at fairly frequent intervals - has ever bothered to check it at anything approaching the loading that Jeff was approaching as his Tad-O-Link was getting to the point of increasing the safety of the towing operation.Change the 'HE's" to "THEY" and that's all I'm sayin'. *HE* (the instructor) didn't kill her. He didn't even allow her to die, without her providing the same exact contribution- not checking the release prior to her flight.Neither of these releases functioned on Nancy's fourth flight on April 3rd, 2016. They had not been thoroughly checked, just presumed to be working. That's the job not only of the pilot, but also, more importantly, the job of the instructor, who is the last line of protection for his students. He failed. He allowed the equipment to fail.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
u$hPa's current official tow equipment certification standards.Davis Straub - 2013/03/10 14:09:22 UTC
I've had no problem releasing my barrel release hundreds of times.
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1. That's a lot of stock you're putting in the pronouncements, observations, conclusions, opinions of a very probable non pilot significant other of a dead Hang One.Again, that is something a pilot of *ANY* rating should know how to, and be expected to, do before any tow flight...
2. His statements regarding the release issues are all totally clueless. ALL Industry Standard, state-of-the-art releases are easily reachable when everything's going just fine. And whenever anything's going halfway seriously wrong ALL are one hundred percent totally fucking useless. Donnell Hewett's Infallible Weak Link, Dennis Pagen's focal point of a safe towing system, the Quest/Davis/Rooney standard aerotow weak link, Ryan Voight's instant hands free release are all indisputable proof of the above - as if our decades of totally unnecessary horrible and fatal tow crashes weren't.
And with the sudden silent adoption and popularity of the Tad-O-Link...
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...by and with everyone and his dog and incorporated with the same cheap bent pin crap placebo releases the Industry has abandoned it's luck based...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
...strategy for towing safety. ("Put this special fishing line on one end of your bridle. It MIGHT break soon enough to keep you from getting killed in a lockout and if it breaks at the worst possible time, with the glider climbing hard in a near stall situation, anything bad that happens subsequently will be your fault for not dealing with the inconvenience properly.")Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC
Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.
We just had a hotshot United Airlines pilot / Hang Four pro toad comp jock who was well versed in the activity and how and when of using the quick release killed instantly in what Davis characterized as the most benign of conditions and circumstances 'cause:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48425
Oregon flying on the edge
Davis Straub - 2016/07/12 19:25:33 UTC
I am thinking that perhaps the conditions had little to nothing to do with this accident. I'm thinking that the pilot made a mistake, letting go of the bar with one hand. and the pitch became far too great far too fast.
This comes from what Russell told me, what April told me and what the first responders told Belinda. Why did he let go?
he made the mistake of letting go of the bar with one hand. And if you really wanna have a positive impact on hang gliding safety then run some clinics on controlling the fuckin' glider with one hand in emergency situations. Or maybe just...Davis Straub - 2016/07/14 02:50:47 UTC
EMT speculated that he was reaching for his camera as it slipped out of a pocket.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
...produce a video illustrating some of these techniques we keep getting told about.Brad Gryder - 2013/02/21 23:25:31 UTC
There's also a way to swing your body way outside the control frame so it stays up there while you reach out with one hand and release. Come on - do some pushups this winter.See if you can advance up to some one-arm pushups.
Hang check/Hook-in check. Synonyms for the same thing of course....just like even a first day student is taught to hang check/hook-in check...
1. PRIOR to launching. Like back in the setup area......prior to launching.
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...half an hour PRIOR to launching.
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Just as long as it's PRIOR. So much more useful than SUBSEQUENT TO.
2. You show me one single video of any student doing a hook-in check under any circumstances.
1. Students tend to be scared and they're putting a lot of trust in their instructors - virtually always misplaced.And... expecting people to be responsible for their own lives... yes, it's asking a lot. But even in the case of a student/instructor arrangement- the instructor grants the student permission (access) to higher on the T-Hill... that doesn't mean the student must therefore launch from higher.
2. Are you Jack Show assholes listening to what this asshole is saying? You assholes who are always screaming at the guys making noises about self teaching?
1. What? They hadn't yet perfected their flare timing and weren't consistently nailing the old Frisbee in the middle of the target circle?I have had a couple students that insisted on spending more time on the training hill than was necessary- as I felt (even as conservative as I tend to be) that they were super ready for a sled ride from the mountain.
2. Maybe they didn't feel they had fully mastered the roll control skills...
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...you'd taught them.
3. And of course you don't offer them anything in between the thirty foot bunny hill...
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...and the thousand foot ridgetop..
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Like a scooter tow maybe to get them up to three hundred feet and learn how to apply TORQUE to get the glider to turn.
1. You're totally right. Pat did his usual totally excellent job and that Nancy bitch got exactly what she deserved.But THEY are the pilot... so THEY choose to do it or not (choose to trust the instructor's approved progression step, or choose to listen to that little voice saying "Don't try flying this high yet, I'm not sure I can make it!" Pretty few people are ever FORCED to fly in X conditions or from Y point on the hill... and if they don't know if they can or not... then there's already a problem, and they need to speak up and get more experience, ask more questions, ask for a demo.
2. So when are you gonna show us the demo of you weight-shift roll controlling a hang glider during a launch run no hands by running under the high wing?
Name some instructors who are actual pilots.Of course... expecting instructors to TEACH people how to be PILOTS who think for themselves and make their own decisions, with instructor guidance and approval at first (so they can learn what goes into making these decisions).
We know EXACTLY why you stopped coming here... again... last time. You lied, told everybody that Newtonian physics works backwards for roll controlling hang gliders, and got majorly caught.You're right... and I am reminded why I stopped coming here... again...Matt Christensen - 2016/08/21 22:53:34 UTC
So, you are suggesting logic, reason, consideration and a fundamental understanding of statistics be applied to these discussions. Maybe a dash of basic writing comprehension and proofing. Doesn't seem like too much to ask...
That's OK. We've got your posts well archived.Carry on fellas, I'm going to go crawl back under the rock I've been hiding under.
So we can use state-of-the-art releases that stink on ice and it shouldn't make the least degree of difference. This is looking more and more like a suicide case as we delve further into things.And... by the way... surprised nobody mentioned this yet- but a failure to release from the tow line does not automatically result in a bad (fatal in this case) crash. So something or some things must have happened after that??? I think general practice is to only tow 2/3 of the way to the winch or turn-around-pulley. This way a release failure might mean the student has 1/3 of the tow distance before they are over the winch/pulley... plus 1/3 of the tow distance straight PAST the winch/pulley... and by this time they are lower, so they have the difference in height worth of line to go even farther... without ever releasing (or can not release).
Again... Total silence from Mission, Mitch, u$hPa, eyewitnesses. Tells us most of what we need to know. That on top of the history we have from Mission.So, point is, great- it sounds like someone identified *A* problem, that the release did not work, and that malfunction was not discovered by both the pilot and the instructor. But how that lead to a fatal crash... we need more info to learn anything constructive really...
P.S. Ryan majorly fucked up his post by duplicating the bulk of it and editing some of the duplicate passages. This is a painstakingly cleaned up version.