wires

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13864
My new wing

Frank Peel - 2009/10/03 16:35:50 UTC
San Jose

Do not STOMP on your wires. It's a good way to kink something that isn't already broken. Instead, have someone show you how to do a proper preflight on that model glider.

2009/10/04 16:04:37 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Glenn Zapien

Red Howard - 2009/10/03 17:07:37 UTC

I don't care what anybody says, do NOT stomp on your wires, as a load test. If your foot hits the ground, then, you will grind your wires into the rocks. Bad plan, man.

gluesniffer - 2009/10/04 18:29:28 UTC

If its a ww, do what their manual says.
If it is a pacair, do what their manual says.

Go ahead, motherfuckers. Run your mouths a little more. With a bit o' luck Rafi Lavin will do for preflight, to some degree at least, what Zack Marzec did for the focal point of a safe towing system.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33308
Funston Accident

Jerry Suneagle - 2015/08/25 09:59:25 UTC
Australia

Okay, hands up... who replaces their side wires every 50 hours or 6 months... yeah... no one!

Exactly. And anyone who does is a fucking idiot. As I tried to explain to these dickheads six years minus a month and two days ago:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13785
Old cables

Tad Eareckson - 2009/09/27 16:54:27 UTC

These things are made to be used on SAILBOATS - sailboats that go out on very salty oceans with waves on them. They get the hell shock loaded out of them, get sprayed, and live their downtime at the dock fully and permanently exposed to the elements. A wire on typical small boat gets more abuse in the course of half a weekend than a rabid coastal aerobatic pilot is gonna give it in a lifetime PROVIDED he's careful setting up and breaking down. The boat comes out way ahead in this department 'cause it's only set up once and never gets broken down.

Now, Jerry, ask for a show of hands on how many of these dickheads do the preflight sidewires load tests - regardless of the idiot manufacturer and what is or isn't said in the fuckin' manual.

W9GFO - 2015/08/25 05:33:41 UTC

I've been making a point of performing that step-on-the-side-wire test every time I preflight. That's in addition to close inspection of the crimps. Gives me peace of mind. It's rare that I see anyone else doing the same. I actually feel kinda dorky doing it. I can't be the only one that feels that way but it won't stop me from doing the test.

The hang gliding cult considers this to be even more of a dangerous fringe activity than a hook-in check.

Notice W9 says "I've been making a point of performing that..." That means he wasn't doing it all along 'cause it was in the owner's manual and/or he was taught and required to do by his instructors and/or dealers. He started doing it on his own 'cause his brain kicked in and he realized it was a damned good idea and critically important check.

Same as me. The idea of deliberately trying to induce a failure creeped me out so... But then sometime around the turn of the century/millennium I started considering the possibility that Wills Wing might know what they were talking about better than I did and all the sudden I started getting that peace of mind about the integrity of my glider that W9's talking about.

'Cept I never once felt the least bit dorky about doing it. I immediately started feeling that the people NOT doing it were the assholes I had previously been. And now we've got a very clear open and shut case of a dead asshole. Pity it wasn't Bo Hagewood.

Note that so far we have zero in the way of announcements of intent to initiate this procedure.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33308
Funston Accident

Eric Beckman - 2015/08/25 04:26:49 UTC

So sad. Rafi was such a well-liked guy, and a fixture at the Fort for years. Heartfelt condolences to all family and friends.

Rafi wasn't well liked enough for any single one of you motherfuckers to approach him and get him properly preflighting his glider.

I don't remember any year with so many fatalities, and I've been flying since 1975.

Then your memory ain't that good. We had a few bloodbath years in the late Seventies and early Eighties that dwarfed anything we've been able to muster in this era.

Oy!

We get about the same number of fatalities every year for any given era of hang gliding. The problem is you assholes only count the rare fatality in which some other asshole is actually killed and totally ignore the fifteen hundred ones just like it in which the asshole comes out smelling like a rose.

If Bill Priday picks up his Sport 2 for the first time in the Whitwell setup area, carries it to the ramp, checks the ribbons for a minute, and runs off minus any thought of a hook-in check he's a terrible tragedy and unbearable loss.

If Paul Edwards does the EXACT SAME THING a half a dozen years later he had a great flight.

How many videos did you assholes see of gliders dropping like fucking bricks right after their Rooney Links increased the safety of the towing operations before Zack Marzec bought it and Davis became happy with the Tad-O-Link?

Try to understand what the hell you're looking at, count the failure to properly preflight the sidewires - whether they're the originals on a 25 year old HPAT or a new T2C that got delivered yesterday - as the low altitude sidewire failure that it is, and the numbers will be high and steady.

Rafi didn't just get killed Sunday. He got killed every Funston flight he'd made over the course of the past decade but kept lucking out.

There were a few side wire failures in years past with gliders that had lots of time at Fort Funston, but none resulted in fatalities (that I know of).

How many of them were on the ground in the setup area?

Coastal flying is especially hard on equipment, and the control bar spends a lot of time in contact with salty moist sandy dirt. A corrosion factory.

Bull fucking shit. If there were the slightest bit of truth to that no sailboats would ever leave port with stainless steel wire rigging outside of the Great Lakes.

While I don't yet know for sure which end of the side wire failed, I would be surprised if it wasn't the control bar end.

'Cause that's the one that spends the most time in contact with salty moist sandy dirt - not 'cause it's the one most vulnerable to abuse in every setup and breakdown cycle.

A new set of flying wires every year or two is inexpensive insurance (even if too the pilot is too cheap to replace them every 6 months or 50 hours).

But for the love o' God DON'T EVER load test them to a couple Gs in the setup area! You might break something - ESPECIALLY something that's on the verge of breaking!

Corrosion keeps working its destructive nature even when the glider isn't being flown.

Get fucked. We don't have a SHRED of evidence that this one had anything to do with corrosion. And it's my call that it DIDN'T.

And you wanna do something useful in the way of investigation?
- Take the failed wire off the glider and put it in a bag where you can't see it.
- Remove all the other flying wires, examine them for signs of obvious physical abuse and damage, and load them to five hundred pounds.

If they all hold - as I'm predicting they WILL - then the case for corrosion goes down the toilet.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33308
Funston Accident

Rick Cavallaro - 2015/08/25 15:01:58 UTC
San Francisco Bay Area

Mine are 1990 and 2002 respectively.

Lessee...

39.8 times the specified hours and about 26 times the specified years.

May be time to think about replacing them.

May be time to think that these manufacturer specifications are total bullshit. Maybe ditto for all these dire warnings about salt air environments. (But make sure you keep replacing your Rooney Link every third tow to make sure it will function as it's designed to and in accordance with your expectations (whatever the fuck they are).)

Angelo Mantas - 2015/08/25 15:24:38 UTC

Badly pressed nico sleeve? It looks like it's pressed all the way down right to the end, instead of being flared on both sides.

Good point. I think you're absolutely right and am embarrassed that I didn't pick up on that on my first pass. I think we're looking at some serious and unforgiveable manufacturer negligence here.

Brian Scharp - 2015/08/25 15:50:17 UTC

And if not already, making a habit of studiously preflighting them including a field load test.

Disagree. Making a habit of field load testing and include studious preflighting inspections. The stomp test is the one that's (or should be, anyway) the no brainer; is much more easily, quickly, effectively performed; can reveal a critical invisible, otherwise undetectable problem; can reveal other critical problems (uninstalled basetube pin (btdt, came fairly close to finding out the really hard way)). I DO wanna check for bends, kinks, broken strands but if I gotta pick just one...

And note that Rafi either never picked up on or gave a rat's ass about the shit nico issue. If he'd done the stomp test he wouldn't have still had an option to launch.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33308
Funston Accident

mario - 2015/08/25 16:40:17 UTC
California

Terrible news. My deepest condolence to all that suffer the loss of Rafi.

As far as the hang glider component of all suffering the loss of Rafi is concerned... Fuck 'em. They had the opportunity to prevent that from happening but it was just so much more fun to piss all over T** at K*** S****** and michael170.

Can someone with the knowledge...

Just how much of the knowledge do ya need for this one?

...tell me if that nico sleeve looks right...

No, it doesn't. I'm not a hundred percent positive on this 'cause it ain't a great photo and there may have been some distortion upon the failure but it LOOKS asymmetrical.

...and what their guess is to how much of the end of that flying wire was actually in the nico?

No need to guess. All of it.

To the uneducated eye...

Get educated. If you're flying these things you were supposed to have BEEN educated on this critical issue within the first couple days of training.

...it looks like a straight break where it exited the sleeve.

Yes. And that would be consistent with an improperly crimped nico, abuse, or a combination of the two.

I have never denied that this is a dangerous sport...

Bullshit. This shit ain't happening 'cause this is a dangerous sport. It's happening 'cause of off-the-scale negligence, incompetence, stupidity, and corruption. It's really hard to find a serious incident that can be blamed on hang gliding being inherently dangerous.

...but this year has really upset me to see so many lose their life to our passion of free flight.

Fuck your passion for free flight. It's gotta take a back seat to a passion for the mostly grade school level fundamentals of aviation. And if you'd really given a rat's ass about the so many that have been losing (throwing away) their lives recently you'd be over here at Kite Strings...

Bob Kuczewski - 2015/07/11 18:16:54 UTC

Hi Tad,

I just wanted to offer a general thanks for all of the information that you capture and preserve on your site. I find it to be a helpful reference when all else fails.

...instead of over there on The Jack Show.

NMERider - 2015/08/25 16:53:11 UTC

I noticed the same thing in addition to what appears to be bare copper against stainless which creates electrolysis and damages the steel but not the copper.

I'll hafta take your word for it for the time being 'cause I don't know anything about this but if that's right we'd expect to find issues with the other ends of the other wires. And this looks to me like a simple shear with no corrosion issues.

On top of that, it appears that the crimp may have been too tight which can further fatigue the wire of even break it inside the sleeve where it can't be seen.

Which is a REAL GOOD reason not to skip the stomp test and to prioritize it over the visual.

Back in the late 70s, Wills Wing did a very detailed article in Hang Gliding magazine which showed many aspects of flying wire construction and testing including how improperly done swaging can break the cable internally.

'Cause hang gliding had to reinvent stainless steel wire technology. What had been done on sailboats an in conventional aviation since the beginning of time wasn't good enough for us.

I did a photo comparison against a set of WW T2C nose wires to show a properly done crimp on 2mm (7/64") 1x19 stainless wire rope.

Nice job.

I hope pilots haven't forgotten about the recent fatality in Spain that according to reliable sources was also due to lack of proper maintenance on the pilot's harness.

- How come these "reliable sources" aren't going majorly public with everything they know? 'Cause this guy was the only one on the planet who could possibly have had these issues and nobody else could possibly ever be similarly vulnerable? If that's the case then what possible value could there be in remembering anything about the recent fatality in Spain?

- How do you properly maintain a harness and parachute system other than not leaving it baking in the sun for hours in setup, breakdown, staging areas?

I hope pilots are doing routine inspection of critical harness components as well.

What are we looking for other than faded sun bleached material? And is the kind of asshole who leaves his harness baking in the sun during downtime gonna be someone doing routine inspections of critical components?

I have had some rude awakenings (but luckily no bad incidents) over the years on several of my harnesses.

Adam Parer had a rude awakening on 2009/11/16 when he was finally able to pry his parachute out of the container of his 2008 Skyline Zero drag harness probably going 240 miles per hour after a four thousand foot freefall because the tumble which precipitated the need for the parachute had also deformed the harness frame such that it blocked the deployment port.

Am I the only one seeing this as a critical harness issue about which total shit has been and is being done?

[<BS>]

If you must load test your wires as part of pre-flight, just push down on the wingbolt at the end of the crossbar, with the basetube (or wheels) flat on the ground. Push down on the right wingbolt to pull-test the left sidewire, and push down on the left wingbolt, to test the right sidewire. You will be able to control exactly how much stress you put on the wires, then.

Is this not a viable option?

[Tad Eareckson]

I dunno. I reviewed that before posting to see if it made any more sense than the total crap that preceded it - and it didn't.

- You can't push down on a bolt, you're pushing down on the cross spar / leading edge junction through the Mylar insert - which I'm not gonna do.

- You're gonna be pushing the tip on your side into the ground - which I'm not gonna do.

- This statement:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13864
My new wing

Red Howard - 2009/10/03 17:07:37 UTC

I don't care what anybody says, do NOT stomp on your wires, as a load test. If your foot hits the ground, then, you will grind your wires into the rocks. Bad plan, man.

is moronic and has no basis in reality - and that asshole hasn't alerted Wills Wing to the dangerous misinformation they're circulating in their manuals with untold tens of thousands of their gliders.

- There isn't a single report anywhere of anyone who runs the stomp test grinding his wire into wet grass.

- Red says "If you must load test your wires as part of pre-flight..." and you bloody well MUST - as Rafi so graphically demonstrated Sunday afternoon. That's a real strong indication that Red never actually does his test himself and may have never done it anywhere but in his idiot head at the keyboard. (Brings to mind Paul Hurless's award winning imaginary aerotow release.)

- And where are all the responses along the lines of "Thanks Red!!! Brilliant!!! Started doing that last weekend and broke my left wire without grinding my right wire into the rocks like I was always doing before!"?

- How come Red's hiding under his rock in this postmortem discussion instead of wading in and setting everybody straight on how to do his patented new and improved load test and its critical importance?

- Anybody and everybody who actually does the sane Wills Wing load test instantly falls in love with it and starts kicking himself for not having started fifteen or twenty years earlier.

That sucker's a thing of beauty. You're pushing down on the wire in order to push up on the leading edge so the total vector force on the glider is ZERO (it doesn't go anywhere), you get an intuitive feel for the stress you're delivering and how it stacks up to what the glider feels in flight, and it WORKS. I myself popped a damaged top sidewire at the kingpost.

Nah, Red's full o' shit. All he's done is discourage load tests and fertilize the environment that just killed Rafi.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://sonomawingsbb.yuku.com/topic/5804/Sad-News
Sad News

Eric Beckman - 2015/08/24 22:51:31 UTC

This is so sad. The failed side wire photos have been posted on Facebook. Glider maintenance is especially important at the coast.

And fuck preflight. What scrap of evidence do you have that this was a maintenance issue? How do you know those wires weren't replaced last Thursday?

Funston has a history of side wire failures on gliders with lots of time there.

- ALL Funston gliders have lots of time there.

- Does Funston have a heavier history of side wire failure than anywhere else per glider hour?

- The issue of the time on the glider itself is completely irrelevant. The glider itself was fine. It was the wire that was the problem and the manufacturers - who are all full o' shit but we need to take them at their word for the purpose of the exercise - all specify replacement schedules for sidewires. So the wire itself is the only relevant issue and you've said NOTHING about the wires and it's a no brainer that you have no valid data on that factor.

Unfortunately, this time resulted in a fatality.

All Rafi's launches were fatalities 'cause he never once in his career did a stomp test. He just didn't luck out on this one.

Replacing side wires every two years seems like cheap insurance if the glider spends much time at the coast.

Well his manufacturer says:

Replace lower side wires every 50 hours or 6 months.

So if you live in Fairbanks and keep your Litespeed in a tube below permafrost level and never fly it you gotta replace the wires every six months. So I'm not seeing how you're justifying setting up and breaking down and doing aerobatics in salty coastal air on five hour flights a hundred days a year for two years before swapping them out.

Glen Archer - 2015/08/24 23:44:57 UTC

This is so sad. Raffi always had a smile and I enjoyed visiting with him whenever I would see him. When I started flying Funston back in 2001, he was the first to help me launch and give tips on launching that site.

Which obviously didn't include a preflight stomp test and undoubtedly didn't include a hook-in check. It's never the guys who always have smiles who do that.

So what were some of these gems he was passing on? Joe Greblo's Four or Five Cs? The Christopher LeFay Five Second Rule?

I always enjoyed seeing him. He will be missed.

Well, keep on doing the same things over and over. You're bound to get better results in the long run.

Scot Huber - 2015/08/25 00:57:25 UTC

Just got home from summer travels yesterday and hear this bad news. Rafael was indeed a fixture at Funston and I will miss his friendly attitude. Do a good preflight every time you fly...

Define a good preflight. Tell me how the good preflight you always do would have detected this issue. And how come you never tuned this fixture at Funston into your procedure? You guys weren't really all that friendly?

...and perform wire replacements on a regular basis...

What regular basis? Pull some hours, months, years out of your ass and tell me why they're adequate but not nuts.

...whether they look bad or not.

Were Rafi's wires old and did they look bad?

James - 2015/08/25 16:37:14 UTC

Twice in the past month I was looking at the glider with Raffi. The screws that hold the downtubes on that Litespeed are notorious for working their way out over time.

And if my guess is right about these screws all they do is keep the downtubes connected in place when they're not under a compression load. Potential safety issue but not bloody likely.

We managed to work them back in and I suggest getting some of that blue threadlock. I'm kicking myself in the butt now for not going further to inspect his sidewires.

What would you have seen? POSSIBLY that the nico was crimped asymmetrically? Is there a snowball's chance in hell that you'd have done the stomp test that WOULD have saved his life?

Does anyone have a link to the Facebook photos that were taken of the glider?

I trust you've found it by now.

Curious where the break happened.

Right where you'd expect it to.

Way back in 1980 I went flying with Rob Kells off of Marshall where they test fly the Wills gliders.

You mean the Rob Kells who ALWAYS does the stomp test just like it says in all Wills Wing owners' manuals? The Rob Kells who never does hang checks like it says in all Wills Wing owners' manuals and ALWAYS does lift and tug hook-in checks like it says in none of them?

He saw that one of my luff lines had slipped under a rib.

That's not a big fuckin' deal. I don't wanna admit how many times I found a hooked luff line after landing my HPAT with everything feeling normal.

Ever since, I've been in the habit of looking at other peoples gliders.

Ever look at other people preflighting their Wills Wing gliders in accordance with what it says in the owners' manuals?

Ultimately, it's everyone personal responsibility to maintain and look after their own gear...

Any chance I can fly with my own aerotow equipment and use a mid range weak link in compliance with FAA aerotowing regulations? Just kidding.

...but like Scot says, it can't hurt to spend more time with the preflight and talking to each other about this kind of preventive maintenance.

Before you start talking about this kind of preventive maintenance you quote some manufacturer specified sidewire replacement schedules and explain to me how any of them can make any possible sense and have any basis in reality. You might wanna read some chapters, posts, articles on the standard aerotow weak link by Dennis Pagen, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden, Dr. Trisa Tilletti to get some useful ideas.

Brian Scharp - 2015/08/25 18:19:21 UTC

Let's also encourage load testing as part of preflight. It could catch something unseen.

Way to kill the discussion - asshole.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33308
Funston Accident

wonderwind_flyer - 2015/08/26 13:56:51 UTC

Firstly, deepest sympathies to all those close to the accident pilot.

- The what what?
- You mean like all those who happily allowed him to launch thousands of times without ever once doing a stomp test?

Secondly, I question the procedure of stepping on the lower side wires before every flight.

Great. Keep questioning and never doing the procedure of stepping on the lower side wires before every flight. I can always use an extra data point to help get this message across to NON total morons.

This may be more acceptable for 7x7 cable construction (more flexible)...

*MORE* *ACCEPTABLE*? Wills Wing tells ya to fuckin' DO IT. They don't talk about levels of ACCEPTABILITY.

...but with 1x19 (less flexible) cable construction it would seem that the repeated stepping cycle may work harden the 1x19 cable in the step zone.

- So just keep assuming that if the cable to which you're about to entrust your life LOOKS good it IS good.

- What's it seem like to you putting rather sharp U-turn into the (less flexible) sidewires every time you fold your glider would do?

- How 'bout wire crew? Should we tell them to let go of a topless sidewire before they hold down to fifty pounds?

- So then why not just skip the stomp test and replace your 1x19s with 7x7s when they're worn out after fifty hours or six months - whichever comes first?

- Let's say there's actually something to this moronic paranoia of yours. When are the wires gonna break?

Idiot.

Also, my understanding is that nickel plating of copper swaging sleeves reduces electrolysis in the joint but is not total prevention.

Why are we talking about electrolysis? We have ZERO indication that this was an electrolysis/corrosion issue and pretty good evidence that it was a shit swaging job issue.

Regular replacement of lower flying wires seems to be the best insurance.

Yeah, knock yourself out. Every fifty hours or six months - whichever comes first. And don't worry about the kinks. And make sure you're always going around the setup, staging, and launch areas making sure that all your buddies are staying in compliance with their specified maintenance schedules. For Moyes fifty hours or six months - whichever comes first. For Wills Wing once a year whether you've done a thousand hours of aerobatics at Funston or left it hanging in the garage in Minneapolis.

It would be interesting to microscopically examine similarly aged lower side wires from different environments around the country, slice them at the swage to expose the cable and compare the integrity levels.

Talk to Orion Price. He's got a lot of experience analyzing weak link failure points with his scanning electron microscope.

If anyone has more information on the swage/cable interface please post.

OK. Rafi's was on the verge of failure. If he'd done the stomp test it would've blown just before launch. Instead he did an in-flight load test and it blew just after launch. Either way...

Asshole.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33308
Funston Accident

NMERider - 2015/08/26 16:27:43 UTC

Steve, I have done this and the bend radius beneath my tennis shoes against the 1x19 cable is insignificant.

Yeah, well what if you do it the way you're supposed to by grinding it into a sharp rock?

Normal errors made during routine setup and breakdown puts far more abuse on 1x19 sidewires than the easy, step-on test.

'Cept for those fags who are really careful not to make the normal errors made during routine setup and breakdown.

Even if the step-on test left a slight bend in the cable it should be left alone. The work-hardening damage occurs when pilots bend their 1x19 side wires then straighten them out. This requires over-bending in order to leave a straight section of cable. The stainless alloy is springy.

If you work harden a section of cable it's gonna be REALLY EASY to notice when looking at a large radius curve.

I do not know where I can find the data for bend radius and degrees of bend and repeated re-bending for fatigue cycles. The alloy of stainless used in this wire is very tough and will withstand a lot of abuse. It is almost unheard of for 1x19 cable to fail anywhere besides the end of the nico-press sleeve.

I don't think in the history of hang gliding there's ever been a failure more than an inch and a half from an end.

Not only is there a stress riser right there but this is where the majority of the sharp bending and straitening abuse take place during set-up and break-down.

Unless, like I said... But if you wanna live your life to the fullest and fly bravely just cram your cables into the bag any way you feel like.

There will be fatigue over time given enough cycles of stress and the steel will become brittle.

So don't do any stress cycles and find something REAL to worry about - like not landing in wheat fields.

I have done enough swaging of 1x19 wire myself and my own destructive testing and have an idea that this is pretty tough material as long as it's not exposed to electrolysis and the kind of severe abuse I've described.

Read FAA AC 43.13-1B Table 7-6 and while you're at it read the other parts of SECTION 8. INSPECTION AND REPAIR OF CONTROL CABLES AND TURNBUCKLES which discuss correct swaging of aircraft cables.

Here's an excellent looking web page on cable terminations for aircraft home-builders:
http://www.kitplanes.com/issues/30_12/builder_spotlight/fabricating_cables_20888-1.html
KITPLANES The Independent Voice for Homebuilt Aviation - The Big Squeeze - KITPLANES Article

Read the asterisks on this FAA table...

http://cdn.kitplanes.com/media/newspics/1213/squeeze-table-7.jpg

He's not interested. He just wants to replace his sidewires every six months and invent more moronic reasons for people like Rafi to skip stomp tests.