http://www.kitestrings.org/post10977.html#p10977
Preface
The following is more a book than a post. I worked on it, on and off, but substantially on, for well over five days - from shortly after my/the previous post in this thread. I previously had the "Maximum characters per post/message" limit for the forum set at an expanded hundred thousand and came close to making it in under the wire. I just extended it 25 percent on top of that.
I've done more than scratch the surface on this important chapter in the history of the downslide of the sport of hang gliding in general and its most important division, aerotowing, in particular, but the shit on and around this one is layered so deep and wide that I still feel that I haven't scratched the surface.
This one's from my neck of the woods and I've personally known and flown with a lot of the players from way back - including/especially the primary.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC
I don't advocate anything.
Did I miss any?
Is it clear what I mean by "We"?
I didn't make the system up.
And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?
Peas in a pod. They're both fucking geniuses and exceptionally knowledgeable 'cause they've carved out niches for themselves in The Industry, risen to the levels of their incompetence and way beyond, been around since the beginning of time, and are smart enough to know that they're too stupid and have too much blood on their hands, directly and downstream, to be putting stuff in print and opening their mouths around live mics.Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC
BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.
Davis...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Same ilk.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 06:15:12 UTC
You may not know, but Davis is a friend of mine.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Does put stuff in print but knows how to say zilch of substance and lock and delete topics and ban major threats whenever he starts "getting into too much trouble" - like one would flying the Tad-O-Links that everybody started being so happy with at the beginning of the 2013 season.Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC
Naw.
Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting
This 2005/05/29 Holly Korzilius could've EASILY, and should have, been the one to have done it and it scared the shit outta the top u$hPa operatives.Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/29 02:26:23 UTC
We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of our association. I wish it were not so, but it is. We don't sell equipment, we don't offer instruction, and we don't assure pilots that they'll be safe. Even so, we get sued periodically by people who say we "shoulda, coulda, woulda" done something that would have averted their accident.
It's not just concern for meet directors and policy makers...it's about our continued existence as an association. It's about minimizing the chance of our getting sued out of existence. We're one lawsuit away from that, all the time, and we think hard about it. I would LOVE to not have to think that way, but every time a legal threat arises, it reminds me that we have a very dysfunctional legal system in this country (note: not a "justice" system...there's little justice involved) and we have to recognize that reality and deal with it.
Goddam right you were and did, Steve. You'd have probably pulled out her intestines if you thought you could have gathered any more information that helps understand the results of some unfortunate poor decisions of the victim of your gross negligence in training, equipment, compliance with regulations and legal standards, oversight and management of your operation.USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05
I was at the wreckage in a few seconds and afterwards gathered the information that helps understand the results of some unfortunate poor decisions of the injured pilot.
Then Davis freeloads into town three and a half weeks later at a point when u$hPa Damage Control is only about one percent of the way into putting the proper spin on this one and...
http://ozreport.com/9.132
Blue Sky
...he's gonna publish the FACTS further illustrating what a totally clueless silly bitch Steve's product was.Davis Straub - 2005/06/21
Blue Sky, Manquin, Virginia
There was an aerotow accident here a few weeks ago, that hurt an experienced female pilot. I hope to publish the facts about that accident as soon as I have the accident report (which was written up by Steve and immediately sent to the USHGA).
http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report
Gets a Xerox of the piece of paper Steve produced on his typewriter and snail mailed to Colorado Springs the next day and cooks up some more ideas to keep pissing all over Holly.Davis Straub - 2005/06/23 02:00 UTC
A few weeks ago there was a bad accident here at Blue Sky involving an experienced (three years) aerotow pilot who made a number of mistakes. You can read about her accident in the accident report above, which Steve Wendt, the owner of Blue Sky immediately wrote up and sent to Joe Gregor and Jayne DePanfilis, at the USHGA.
I'll bet he was. And what better perspective could one possibly hope to benefit from with a source so expert, unbiased, disinterested.I spoke at length with Steve about this accident and he was quite open and willing to talk about it and about the lessons that can be learned.
Then u$hPa has to spend the next fourteen months figuring out how to warp what actually happened and the spins of Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt and Davis Dead-On Straub into the usual...
...Standard Operating Diversionary Drivel.Joe Gregor - 2006/09
No one can say for sure what specifically occurred to cause this accident, including the accident pilot. She doesn't even remember the event. Others observed segments of the accident sequence from their own unique perspectives. No one had the God's-eye view required to see it all and understand what really happened. One thing we can focus on would be the change in routine caused by the pilot's change of equipment.
When I first read this crap from Joe I just found it irritating, clueless, pretentious, useless, irritating... Oops. I'd said irritating already.
It wasn't until I reviewed and REALLY STARTED ANALYZING what I was seeing - after Matt Pruett provided us with that wonderful demonstration of proper pro toad technique and brought the Holly crash and post mortem crap back to mind - that I really started seeing this early example of the shit in which we're totally drowning today.
The sport's been doomed for a long time now but this thing still has some time bomb potential and ya never know when some of it may still prove useful. Have fun scrolling.
Joe Gregor - 2006/09
Accident Analysis
The accident flight occurred around noontime. There was no report concerning the glider's nose-angle setting as it sat in the launch cart.
As a result of changing her bridle arrangement, the accident pilot had inadvertently removed the weak link from the system. After several oscillations, the glider locked out while still low. The tug pilot took action to release the towrope simultaneously with the failure of the Spectra® line. The accident pilot managed to level the wings but was unable to further recover from the ensuing dive before ground impact.
It was several weeks after her "release" before this pilot could actually say she was enjoying life once again. She was a reasonably experienced H-3 at the time of her accident, having started her training at Marina State Beach in California in the summer of 2001. By October of that year she had moved to Virginia, where she took her instruction via scooter tow. By December, she had her first solo high flight experience by truck tow. The following August saw her logging flights up to four hours long. In late August 2002, she learned to aerotow, and had logged approximately 75 aerotows (and over 100 truck tows) by the time of the accident. She currently holds special skills signoffs for AT, FL, PL, ST, and TUR, and has flown a variety of gliders including the Wills Wing Condor, Falcon, Eagle, and Ultrasport, as well as the Moyes Sonic and Litesport 4. She was obviously qualified to perform the attempted maneuver (launching via aerotow).
Discussion
So what can we learn from this? What would you have done differently to avoid a similar experience?
No one can say for sure what specifically occurred to cause this accident, including the accident pilot. She doesn't even remember the event. Others observed segments of the accident sequence from their own unique perspectives. No one had the God's-eye view required to see it all and understand what really happened. One thing we can focus on would be the change in routine caused by the pilot's change of equipment.
It seems reasonable to assume the launching from the shoulders alone (the so-called "pro-tow") would represent a substantial modification of the entire aerotow system. As pilots of what the FAA would consider a (highly) experimental aircraft, we are all a little bit test pilot, even in our routine day-to-day operations. Many have adopted the discipline of only changing one thing at a time in their setup, equipment, or routine, in order to mitigate the dangers of being inadvertently pushed to the outside of their safe flight envelope. They would test these changes under benign, controlled conditions, to increase the safety factor, and only then move on to more challenging conditions. Only after they had become comfortable with the new system would they add another change, under the same conditions as before.
Our accident pilot did indeed make a single change, after seeking the advice of fellow pilots whose opinions she respected - but she flew the new system for the first time under normal soaring conditions. This may have reduced her safety margin, so that when the unexpected characteristics of her new towing system manifest, she was unable to adjust quickly enough to avoid a serious mishap.
Over the years, I have been encouraged by fellow pilots to dump my preferred system using the three-point bridle (towing from both shoulders and the carabiner) and bicycle grip release and to embrace the "pro-tow" system. I have heard all the arguments concerning the obvious performance advantages (less drag), and the somewhat less obvious safety advantages (some claim to find it easier to release from tow using the barrel-style release). I acknowledge some of these arguments, and remain highly skeptical of others. I have, during calm end-of-day conditions, employed this launch method in order to evaluate those arguments - to help decide if I should make the switch.
What I found was that the control inputs required when launching using the "pro-tow" were noticeably different from what I was accustomed to when using the three-point system. I believe that these differences are a direct result of the fact the "pro-tow" pulls the glider/pilot from a point below the CG (center of gravity) of the glider/pilot system. The three-point configuration more nearly exerts force on the glider/pilot along the CG of the system. This results in a pure translation.
If you pull an object from a point out of alignment with the CG of the system, you will experience a rotation. In the case of the "pro-tow", pulling pilot and glider from a point below the CG, a pilot maintaining their accustomed bar position flying off the cart (arms rigid) would experience a nose-up rotation force. Launching using the "pro-tow", I found myself obliged to counteract this effect by pulling in more than I was accustomed to when using my three-point bridle, in order to maintain the same angle of attack through the air. Had I not been prepared for this ahead of time, and had I furthermore tried this for the first time during mid-day conditions, I might have found myself in a lockout situation close to the ground before I was able to figure out what was going on.
I am sure that, after using this system for a while, I would become comfortable with it. Eventually, I might not even recall experiencing any significant difference between the two methods. The human memory is highly malleable. For this reason if for no other, we should all exhibit caution when accepting advice from our fellow pilots. What may seem easy, obvious, and straightforward to those who have seen-it/done-it, may represent a significant challenge to the new practitioner. Those pilots holding instructor ratings have received the extensive training and experience required to safely and effectively relate their advice to those learning new techniques for the first time. Pilots who contemplate attempting a new maneuver, flying with a new type of wing or harness, or trying out a new type of flight-critical system (such as a new-style tow release) are encouraged to seek out qualified instruction if they wish to preserve their safety margin while doing so.
Fly high and safe.
Photos by Susan Flaitz
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50037239822_31b97dbf53_o.png
Pilot in the 2005 Florida Ridge Comp towing with the three-point (keel and shoulders) setup
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50036981136_840eb87237_o.png
Florida Ridge 2005 competition pilot using the "pro tow" setup
Version 1 says 12:15. Guess we don't wanna start off on the wrong foot with excessive precision.Joe Gregor - 2006/09
Accident Analysis
The accident flight occurred around noontime.
- How could that issue possibly be of any relevance concerning this incident? Tail too high and the glider stays stuck on the cart. Too low and it doesn't matter unless it gets hit from the side nasty enough to roll it before there's enough airspeed for the wing to trim. There's been absolutely nothing written to indicate anything was the least bit problematic until after Holly had smoothly become airborne. We got shit that actually matters to talk about, Joe.There was no report concerning the glider's nose-angle setting as it sat in the launch cart.
- There was also no report concerning whether or not the glider's wings were significantly iced. By the time of the accident she had logged approximately 75 aerotows (and over 100 truck tows) and she had a volunteer launch crew to make sure her equipment was fully compliant with FAA regs and u$hPa SOPs - and Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt's extra sterling standards on top of that. And they made sure the secondary/backup/emergency system she was now using as a primary was configured in the same top notch shape it would've been for a low level thermal induced lockout emergency...
- More realistically, there was also no report concerning what - if anything - she was using in the way of wheels. It's a no brainer that they weren't a pair of eight inch pneumatic Finsterwalders but if her basetube hit before her face such would likely have diminished the severities of the impact and her injuries. But the primary purpose of a u$hPa "accident" report is to cover the asses of responsible parties and that's always well served by padding it with as much totally irrelevant rot as possible within the confines of reasonable printing costs.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
...with a primary bridle wrap. Do we really need you to bring that point to our attention? No wait. They're probably paying you by the word to load this report with as much professional-crash-investigator sounding crap as possible in order to more effectively obscure the few morsels you had to include that you don't want people thinking about too much. Also the volumes of material you're conspicuously not mentioning. Pray continue.Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC
Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
Changing? How 'bout truncating? How 'bout amputating 95 percent of the control/safety margin components? She "CHANGED" nothing - outside of what was obviously Blue Sky standard for all pro toad flights at that outstanding operation.As a result of changing her bridle arrangement...
- So there was absolutely nothing anywhere in the configuration to prevent her from getting into too much trouble. Right Joe?...the accident pilot had inadvertently removed the weak link from the system.
- What the fuck do you mean by THE weak link from the system? If you'd bothered to read the relevant regulations and SOPs you'd know that they mandate a MINIMUM of TWO weak links and that they be installed on the TOWLINE ENDS. And the back one's required to be within a specified range based on the glider's Max Certified Operating Weight and the front one's required to be stronger but no more than 20 percent so.
- Can you understand the logic behind that configuration? Or a reasonable facsimile in which weak links are installed at ALL bridle ends so everything at both ends of the line is protected no matter what? (Just kidding.)
- So if Tex had been configured legally it wouldn't have mattered in the slightest that there was no back end weak link. Tex would’ve still made the good decision in the interest of her safety - if the front end weak link hadn't already prevented her from getting too far out of whack - and her glider would've still been in the same pristine shape it was the millisecond after separation when Holly suddenly recovered from her lack of currency, flipped it back right-side up, and did the best that was possible for her to while it was regaining workable airspeed.
- WHAT weak link? At that particular point in our history and operation what had we decided we were happy with and what were we expecting it to do for us? If the answer is:
-- "protect our aircraft against overloading" then why are you bothering to mention it?
-- anything else then you're as much an incompetent douchebag as the Blue Sky incompetent douchebags running that show.
- Note that in the entirety of Holly's statement - published in the magazine with your report and analysis - fifteen months after the crash, she makes absolutely no mention of the absence of her fake focal point of her shoddy safe towing system. (Gotta give her some credit at least for that.)
- Note that on 2016/05/21 Jeff Bohl was flying pro toad at Quest behind a 582 Dragonfly with the same appropriate bridle that Holly was using and the 400 pound towline Tad-O-Link that everybody had three years prior decided they were happy with. It succeeded a millisecond before his driver, also conspicuously unidentified, made a good decision in the interest of HIS OWN safety, as his underpowered plane was about to get dragged down into the trees, and this highly qualified and current airline pilot finished an extremely distant second to what Holly managed. Any comment?
- Well, she's an accident pilot right? What more could we expect? (Ever write any accident reports referring to accident instructors and/or accident tug drivers? (Don't worry, Joe. I have ya covered here.))
- Bullshit.
She used the secondary elements of the two point bridle/release system which her exceptionally knowledgeable accident instructor had constructed, assembled, and sold her and on which her exceptionally knowledgeable accident instructor had trained her to operate in normal and emergency shituations. The secondary assembly comes into play when the cheap shoddy primary bridle welds itself to the tow ring - one out of a thousand times in normal and over half the time in lockout shituations when it starts mattering.
In that scenario the primary bridle becomes an extension of the towline, the primary bridle's bottom eye splice becomes the tow ring, the secondary bridle becomes THE bridle, and no weak link is needed because:
- at that point the pilot will simply and immediately actuate her easily reachable bent pin emergency release
- more components built into a system translates to increased complexity and increased complexity always translates to increased probability of system failure
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?
See?Paul Hurless - 2009/05/01 16:35:30 UTC
Your arrogance is amazing and amusing. While I fully support everyone's right to speak their mind, I sure don't always agree with them.
Designing for failure modes that won't happen? What's the point of that, unnecessary complexity?
Adding more parts like pulleys and internally routed components makes it that much more likely that a device will fail. Simple is best.
No focal point of a safe towing system on her bridle?
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=242
VOX
The Accident Pilot used the secondary subsystem of the bridle/release system as her exceptionally knowledgeable, u$hPa award winning, highly experienced, professional accident instructor had designed it to be employed in worst case scenario situations - which is exactly what she experienced within a second of coming off the cart. It was totally in its totally intended element.Paul Tjaden - 2005/03/12 14:54:17 UTC
I noticed that Jim Lamb uses two barrel releases and NO weak link.
INSTALLING a weak link on her own initiative would've been dangerous and contrary to everything instilled in her training and constant coaching at Blue Sky.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=939
Weak link breaks?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971Jim Rooney - 2005/08/31 23:46:25 UTC
As with many changes in avaition, change is approached with a bit of skepticism. Rightfully so. There's something to be said for "tried and true" methods... by strapping on somehting new, you become a test pilot. The unknown and unforseen become your greatest risk factors. It's up to each of us to individually asses the risks/rewards for ourselves.
Zach Marzec
See?Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC
My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.
And besides...
Dontchya think it obvious that Steve Wendt, USHGA Accident Instructor # 19528, would've known that she was using her secondary subsystem as her pro toad assembly for her first one point solo discovery flight and would have previously - or at the moment at the absolute least - advised her that she needed to install a weak link...USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05
Summary: I observed the accident from a few hundred yards away, but could clearly see launch and the aero tow was coming towards my area so that I had a full view of the flight.
...if we'd thought it a possibility?USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05
This could have been done with a short clinic and if we thought it a possibility, been done under supervised conditions in the evening air.
What evidence do you have that it was locked out? If she was locked out that pretty much lets all the front end motherfuckers off the hook 'cause options for helping her out would've been substantially limited. But if she were just at the extremity of her third oscillation and on her way back for her fourth then the asshole on the accident tug making a good decision in the interest of her safety, the fake towline failure, a success of the focal point of her safe towing system if she'd had one would've sealed her fate.After several oscillations, the glider locked out while still low.
Good thing for all the Blue Sky and u$hPa thugs that her memory got wiped, wasn't it Joe? Otherwise we might have had another perspective that would've sounded a lot like Nuno Fontes' on his 2006/05/06 - just a bit under a year later.
What tug pilot?The tug pilot...
- Who was he and what did he have in the way of qualifications and experience level and range?
- Why do we have not so much as a single scrap of a quote pertaining to his perspective on the incident?
- Would it be too much trouble to let us know what he was flying? (Flightstar - Tom Peghiny.)
The important things we know about him:
- He was operating the tow illegally.
- The glider behind him was totaled and its pilot was two thirds killed.
- He's been totally clammed up about the incident for the past fifteen months.
- He was operating, according to an uncontradicted assertion by the flight park operator and this report, in a dangerous illegal configuration.
Another thing we know fer sure is that Joe's much better qualified to write the report than Accident Tex is 'cause he's the one writing the report. And ditto regarding Accident Steve.
But we shouldn't be investigating this angle in the least 'cause that would distract us from talking about the fact that we don't know how the pitch attitude was set on the cart.
- What's the difference between the "towrope" and the "Spectra® line"?...took action to release the towrope simultaneously with the failure of the Spectra® line.
- "TOOK ACTION TO" release the "towrope"? If a dog had run out in front of his car would he have TAKEN ACTION to engage the hydraulic braking system? And how do you think the dog would've been doing while Tex was taking all that action?
- My my my... We certainly seem to be having quite a perfect storm of failures in this little window, don't we Joe?
Accident Holly failed to:
- find her primary bridle
- note that she had:
-- not completed the short pro toad clinic Blue Sky mandates to so qualify its student pilots
-- no weak link at her end of the line
-- an accident tug driver who never employed a weak link at his end of the line
- maintain steady safe control of her glider in the nonexistent dangerous midday turbulence into which she launched
- recognize the severity of the hazard of her situation
- effect the easy reach to her easily reachable bent pin barrel release in a timely manner
- gain the extra twenty feet she'd have needed for a safe recovery before her driver made a good decision in the interest of her safety
Her accident instructor failed to:
- advise her to fly a more forgiving glider due to her very questionable currency status
- inform:
-- her of the short pro toad clinic Blue Sky mandates to so qualify its student pilots
-- the accident launch crew that only properly qualified pro toad pilots would be permitted to get on the cart minus a two point bridle
- signal the accident tug driver to stand down as an unqualified Blue Sky student was hooking up pro toad:
-- on a high performance glider that required much better currency than she had maintained
-- in dangerous midday thermal conditions
- include the critical issue regarding flying pro toad had been clearly stated on the launch carts checklist
Her accident launch crew failed to:
- note that her safe towing system had no focal point
- inform her that only properly certified pro toad pilots would be permitted to hook up one point
- caution her about the deadly midday thermal turbulence into which she was about to launch on her first pro toad effort
Her accident tug driver failed to:
- ensure that a weak link within the legal min-max range was installed on his end of the towline
- his towline wasn't in such crap shape that it would disintegrate inside the range of tensions that would be expected for a normal light solo pull
- abort the tow before Holly got into too much trouble - as an appropriate weak link would have if there'd been one at either end of the towline
- maintain the tow after Holly had gotten into too much trouble to allow her to make it to the twenty extra feet she would've needed to recover
Her national hang gliding accident association failed to:
- establish Pro Toad Aerotowing:
-- proper universal proficiency training standards
-- certified instructors
-- a PT Special Skill such that only those AT pilots with the rating on their cards would be permitted to hook up minus a three point bridle
- denounce flying pro toad as the deadly fringe activity it is and:
-- ban all such activities in no uncertain terms as they decertify the glider and thus violate the conditions of u$hPa's FAA AT exemption
-- punish violators with ratings suspension and revocations
So how is it that only Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt's student is the only relevant individual held to more than a nickel's worth of accountability and everyone else on up the chain of command comes out smelling like roses?
(By the way... Do we know if Accident Steve billed her for the perfectly good towline she destroyed through her incompetent and negligent actions?)
- What's the source of this critical information that the "towrope" failed and why did no hint of it appear in the Version 1 report from the most highly qualified, experienced, exceptionally knowledgeable individual on site who witnessed the entire event and was the only witness - whose memory of the flight wasn't wiped - to put anything in print?
And now that I think about it...
THAT totally STINKS.Holly Korzilius - 2006/09
It was May, and my friend and I spent the day at the local flight park. I did not fly that day. Although conditions were safe to fly in, conditions did not look good for staying up. That evening a party was thrown at the flight park in recognition of my instructor's selection as the USHGA Hang Gliding Instructor of the Year.
...
I discussed 'towing off the shoulders' with a couple of other pilots, as this was something I thought I could do with the remaining portions of my aerotow release. I did not discuss my intent to tow off the shoulders with either of the hang gliding instructors present prior to launching.
...
Based on the other pilots' reports, my glider ended up perpendicular to the tug's flight path and the Spectra® tow line snapped.
...
Numerous pilots ran to my aid. With his prior military police training, one pilot took charge of the accident scene. He kept people from crowding in. Another one had completed nurse training and was studying for her registered nurse exam. She provided whatever medical assistance she could (making sure I was kept warm, and that I was not moved - fearing a neck injury, etc.). My parachute was taken out and used to shade me from the bright sun. Someone cut the sail on my hang glider to aid in my extraction.
The field had been SWARMING with rated hang glider pilots in close proximity to this disaster. Good chance it was the first flight of the day - and note we don't hear any reports of the lethal midday thermal turbulence from anyone who'd launched just prior. (And nobody was able to fly later 'cause their best/only towrope had just been broken through The Accident Pilot's negligence.)
Probably also getting briefed on the best version of what they saw that could be concocted in what remained of the afternoon. If Holly had completed the tow, sunk out, bonked her landing due to an imperfectly timed flare we'd have heard sixty opinions from thirty individuals on what she'd done wrong and nothing from her accident instructor. And what we get from this near fatal is the precise opposite. Major Code of Silence bullshit kicking in.
Sound...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016
...familiar?AdamG - 2016/04/10 15:37:46 UTC
I was there- im a hang 2 student that was towing that day. I saw Nancy's gliders final impact with the ground and I saw her condition afterward. (I'm not the student referred to earlier in this post). It was a tragic situation.
Pat sent us all an email last night about the incident and So maybe you'll get the accident report soon. There were 2 or perhaps three of us in the area besides pat who were in a position to see anything about what was happening. I don't think any of us will be saying anything more about the incident until if and when it's time to give testimony to the proper authorities. Ushpa hasn't contacted me and I'm not sure they will.
Bookends.USHPA Awards
Pat Denevan
- 1992 - NAA Safety
- 2001 - Hang Gliding Instructor of the Year
Steve Wendt
- 2004 - Hang Gliding Instructor of the Year
- 2007 - NAA Safety
- Versions...
-- In Version 1....
...the accident tug pilot hit the release upon when Holly had completed 3 oscilations before it took her 90 degrees from the accident tow vehicle and Accident Holly continued turning away from the tow in a fairly violent exchange of force . No particular reason cited, just when it took her 90 degrees from the tow vehicle.USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05
Holly immediately had control problems right off the dolly and completed 3 oscilations before it took her 90 degrees from the tow vehicle upon when the tug pilot hit the release and Holly continued turning away from the tow in a fairly violent exchange of force .
-- In Version 2...
http://ozreport.com/9.132
Blue Sky
...the Unidentified Accident Tug Pilot without a weaklink HAD to release her, but too late when she was already in a too dangerous condition, BUT when she was endangering the Accident Tug Pilot and The Other Accident Pilot was too low and too out of whack to recover in time. The Accident Pilot, did I mention, being without a weaklink.Davis Straub - 2005/06/21
Blue Sky, Manquin, Virginia
Eighth, without a weaklink the tug pilot had to release her, but too late when she was already in a too dangerous condition, but when she was endangering the tug pilot. The pilot was too low and too out of whack to recover in time.
-- In Version 3...
...the Accident Tug Pilot took action to release the towrope simultaneously with the failure of the Spectra® line.Joe Gregor - 2006/09
After several oscillations, the glider locked out while still low. The tug pilot took action to release the towrope simultaneously with the failure of the Spectra® line.
Where to fuckin' begin? It's so overwhelming that I'm not even gonna try to start. Other than to say that this had to be the watershed moment in hang gliding history when u$hPa figured out that it could say ANYTHING it felt like and it WOULDN'T MATTER. Probably the cornerstone for the foundation for later iterations like 2015/03/27 Jean Lake.
THE accident pilot? You're characterizing the clusterfuck as an "accident", right?The accident pilot...
You've already referred to "The tug pilot". The tug pilot was:
- obviously aware that "THE accident pilot" was hooking up pro toad in deadly midday thermal turbulence conditions. And if he weren't he was even more grossly negligent in not knowing how she was hooked up.
- grossly negligent in failing to:
-- verify with a competent launch crew that "THE accident pilot" was properly configured with a legal range weak link
-- have a legal range weak link properly installed at his end
-- maintain a non shit towline that wouldn't vaporize at when-the-fuck-ever
-- quickly and safely abort a tow that was rapidly heading south
-- maintain the tow the several additional seconds needed to get "THE accident pilot" to a safe recovery altitude
So if we have to designate one individual as "THE accident pilot" I'd be of the persuasion that Holly is a really crappy choice. She was operating at the best her ability, experience, training would allow and her only mistakes were to trust the competence and professionalism of the two motherfuckers at the airfield at the time presenting themselves as instructors and get into a very short (three swings) oscillation cycle.
Wow. So the instant she was out of her shitty illegal Blue Sky pro toad configuration she managed to level her wings - despite being on a glider on which she was so dangerously non-current and being in those lethally turbulent midday conditions. Go figure....managed to level the wings...
- Thanks for specifying that it was a GROUND impact. Otherwise we might have been thinking it was an impact with a kid on a bike, cow, Canada Goose, the old Frisbee in the middle of the runway......but was unable to further recover from the ensuing dive before ground impact.
- Oh. She was unABLE to further recover from the ensuing dive before ground impact. 'Cause her ABILITIES weren't quite up to snuff, right? You certainly wouldn't wanna say anything along the lines of her being too low to recover from the severe stall.
Here's what we have from Version 1:
Too much credit for responding as a competent pilot. Problematic though - as the author is the exceptionally knowledgeable instructor who taught her and signed her off for everything she knows north of a dozen California beach hops. Version 2:USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05
Holly pulled in to have control speed and then began rounding out , but there was not enough altitude and she hit the ground before she could do so.
http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report
Slightly better. She let herself get too far out of whack - mostly by failing to use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less. Version 3:Davis Straub - 2005/06/23 02:00 UTC
The pilot was too low and too out of whack to recover in time.
The accident pilot (hell, who wants to go flying with an ACCIDENT PILOT anywhere near the cockpit) managed (at the limits of her rather feeble abilities) to level the wings but was unable to further recover (despite having virtually unlimited time and altitude) before ground impact (her idea of an acceptable landing). Well done, Joe. Course you u$hPa spin doctor motherfuckers have had fifteen months to properly refine things by this point.THE accident pilot MANAGED to level the wings but WAS UNABLE to further recover from the ensuing dive before ground impact.
- And here I was thinking that The Accident Tug pilot could fix whatever was going on back there by giving The Accident Pilot the accident rope.It was several weeks after her "release" before this pilot could actually say she was enjoying life once again.
- How 'bout her glider and harness? How were they feeling about things?
- So was she advanced enough to be comfortable flying prone with her hands on the control bar?She was a reasonably experienced H-3 at the time of her accident...
- But certainly not a reasonably enough experienced H-3 at the time of her accident to have previously been taught anything to get her prepared for pro towing. Only the best of the best are assigned Jedi masters to gradually reveal the secrets necessary to begin the climb to that stratospheric level of human accomplishment.
119-083237
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/942/40764720725_f8667740e7_o.png
Yeah? Where and when the fuck did she FINISH her training?....having started her training at Marina State Beach in California in the summer of 2001.
If flying pro toad is an actual legitimate skill - as Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt is representing it in no uncertain terms - then why was the only half-assed excuse for instruction, coaching, advancement this short discussion she had with her volunteer accident launch crew guys two or three minutes before she piled in?Glenn Zapien
Always a student.
If it's an actual legitimate skill all the two pointer faggots flying gliders commonly flown one should all be constantly inching their upper/trim attachments aft on the keel to their hang points then down the harness suspension to the point that they're effectively flying one point and ready for their PT Special Skill signoffs. And the fact that nothing remotely like this ever happens in the real world makes it blindingly obvious that this is nothing but a dangerous control compromise to accommodate the use of cheap crap equipment.
Oh, so when she survives her initial flying education minus a scratch you narrow it down to a little strip of sand on Monterey Bay we can quickly translate to Pat Denevan. But when she gets totally fuckin' demolished "Virginia" is as specific as you wanna get. We can still jump to Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt pretty easily but... Sounds like we're not trying real hard to advertise a top quality operation.By October of that year she had moved to Virginia, where she took her instruction via scooter tow.
Presumably at Manquin - rather than Woodstock - 'cause you're not saying anything about mountain launch and flying experience. So four hour flatlands pure thermal flights. That's someone who knows how to fly any certified glider you wanna throw at her and doesn't need to worry about currency issues. (Not to be confused with a Greblo product who's kept upright on the control tubes for forty hours worth of Kagel sleds before he's allowed to prone out and touch the basetube.)By December, she had her first solo high flight experience by truck tow. The following August saw her logging flights up to four hours long.
But still couldn't qualify as a PROFESSIONAL aerotower 'cause she was still using that sissy two point crap. Reminds me a lot of...In late August 2002, she learned to aerotow, and had logged approximately 75 aerotows (and over 100 truck tows) by the time of the accident.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29884
Hat Creek Power Whack
...wheel landings.Mike Bilyk - 2013/09/07 17:07:26 UTC
Wheel landings are for girls!
- But no PT. Her only foray into that time honored discipline was an immediate, instant, near total disaster. Go figure.She currently holds special skills signoffs for AT, FL, PL, ST, and TUR...
- Oh. She had a TURBULENCE rating. Funny that qualification did her no good whatsoever in that really nasty midday shit she found the instant she came off the cart.
- Seems to me, now that I think of it, that if you have BOTH an AT and Turbulence rating a PT stamp on the card should be automatic. Likewise an AT and PT should get you a TUR. Can anybody think of any reasons why not?
The latter having recently been converted to scrap as a consequence of u$hPa sanctioned dangerous fringe activity....and has flown a variety of gliders including the Wills Wing Condor, Falcon, Eagle, and Ultrasport, as well as the Moyes Sonic and Litesport 4.
- Suck my dick, Joe. NOBODY's qualified - obviously nor to any lesser degree - to fly a decertified glider. There is no PT Special Skill signoff one can use to verify his obvious qualification and this:She was obviously qualified to perform the attempted maneuver (launching via aerotow).
http://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4174/34261733815_bfb41c49d8_o.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3746/13864051003_a820bcf2b8_o.png
06-03114
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3728/9655895292_f4f808fb0e_o.png
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg
...unfortunate asshole definitively ended any discussion with the slightest taint of honesty on the pro toad issue.
- Got news for ya, Joe. It's a bit of a stretch to refer to coming straight off a cart and climbing straight behind an accident tug for several hundred feet as a MANEUVER. Also...
Pretentious fucking assholes.Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
The first accident occurred in Germany at an aerotowing competition. The pilot launched with his Litespeed and climbed to about 40 feet when he encountered a thermal that lifted him well above the tug. After a few moments, the glider was seen to move to the side and rapidly turn nose down to fly into the ground, still on tow, in a classic lockout maneuver. The impact was fatal.
Oh good. A "DISCUSSION". On u$hPa's sleazy rag where the only individuals permitted to DISCUSS anything are u$hPa approved operatives such as yourself. And unfortunately the accident flight park operator and accident tug pilot both have prior commitments and won't be available to participate in either the discussion itself or the half hour Q&A session immediately following.Discussion
One asshole having a discussion with himself - saying whatever the fuck he feels like regardless of how incompatible it is with prior versions and with zero fear of being called out or having anything inconvenient published in any Letters to the Editor.
Obviously tons. WE are all at the same clueless level 'cause all of our instruction sucks like nobody can believe. Whenever there's a demolished glider and two thirds killed pilot the issues are always ones that WE have never seen before and would've been totally impossible to predict using the solid aeronautical theory Wilbur and Orville developed at the beginning of the previous century. It's NEVER 'cause of total shit fringe activity conducted by u$hPa Made Men who should've been escorted from the crash site in handcuffs, convicted of criminal negligence, relieved of their last pennies over damages awards, banned from the sport for life plus fifty.So what can we learn from this?
- Just about ANYTHING, dickhead.What would you have done differently to avoid a similar experience?
- I'd have first taken the short clinic and, if we thought it a possibility, done it under supervised conditions in the evening air. Then it would be physically impossible for anything bad to ever happen to me in any aerotowing shituation that could ever be thrown at me. (Kinda makes one wonder how Zack Marzec so quickly ended up as dead as he did - what with the environment as oozing as it was with ratings, experience, expertise, perfected aerotowing.)
- Any thoughts on why that small investment in Holly's safety education had never been undertaken by Blue Sky?
- And I'll bet you won't be saying much about this issue in the rest of your report.
- Yeah? Version 1:No one can say for sure what specifically occurred to cause this accident, including the accident pilot.
http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report
He doesn't record so much as a BLINK's worth of a miss of the slightest element of relevant detail. Neither cites nor expresses the slightest need to cite a single scrap of information from the accident tug pilot's perspective. And nobody's ever taken the slightest issue with any element of that report. Ditto regarding Versions 1 and 2 - despite all the obvious omissions, inconsistencies, contradictions, lies. (All you motherfuckers do is treat it as if it never existed when you're crafting better and tailored stories to suit your purposes.)USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05
Summary: I observed the accident from a few hundred yards away, but could clearly see launch and the aero tow was coming towards my area so that I had a full view of the flight. I was at the wreckage in a few seconds and afterwards gathered the information that helps understand the results of some unfortunate poor decisions of the injured pilot.
- Also, of course, any of the thousands of u$hPa members and non member hang glider pilots who aren't being permitted to participate in your monologue. Sorry - "DISCUSSION".
- And any of you motherfuckers who CAN say for sure what specifically occurred to cause this accident... Take the hint and keep your fuckin' mouth shut - like the scores of eyewitnesses who watched this atrocity unfold real-time. This is the official u$hPa version of what happened and why - and you're gonna totally love it.
Compare the above to:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Pattern look familiar? These are the official u$hPa / Flight Park Mafia FACTS, we've spent five days carefully crafting them, if you have a different take based on what Mark Frutiger immediately blurted out without first clearing it with our experienced damage control operatives it's one hundred percent PURE unadulterated SPECULATION. And we don't really cotton to speculators all that well in this neck of the swamp. Capiche?Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC
Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation.
...
I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know. Zach was a great guy with an incredible outlook and zest for life. He will be sorely missed.
Nah. She doesn't even remember the event.She doesn't even remember the event.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
And she'd be remembering even less if the runway surface were a bit harder and she'd been killed instantly. And then we'd all REALLY be screwed as far as understanding any of the relevant issues and what we could learn. The way we were with...Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC
My god my head hurts.
Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Swift - 2013/02/27 14:22:49 UTC
Zack wasn't "sitting on the couch" when a cheap piece of string made the decision to dump him at the worst possible time.
William Olive - 2013/02/27 20:55:06 UTC
Like the rest of us, you have no idea what really happened on that tow.
We probably never will know.
...Zack Marzec.Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC
Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.
Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.
Yeah?Others observed segments of the accident sequence from their own unique perspectives.
- What others? Obviously everyone who wasn't YOU, just the people who were ACTUALLY THERE and WATCHING this clusterfuck of an aerotow launch - 'cause you don't cite one single source in your bullshit report. Hell, you don't even cite the site.
-- There's a narrative from Holly included in this article but her memory of the shit that involved movement isn't any better than mine - probably worse 'cause I know Accident Steve from way back and was never the least bit dependent on Blue Sky to get any airtime worth mentioning.
-- Nothing from:
--- Accident Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt:
---- Blue Sky:
----- owner
----- operator
----- aerotowing equipment manufacturer
---- highly respected and experienced u$hPa award winning accident instructor and safety contributor
--- Accident Tex Forrest - the:
---- supplier of the power that:
----- got The Accident Pilot airborne
----- was translated to the accident impact energy which:
------ shattered The Accident Pilot's face
------ wiped her memory of the flight and removed her as a useful source of a lot of inconvenient information
----- accident individual most responsible for the safety of The Accident Pilot - given the total shit equipment Blue Sky sold her to hook her up
--- Any member of the Volunteer Accident Launch Crew whom:
---- Accident Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt:
----- trained and certified with the AT rating which required with respect to hang glider aerotowing a full understanding of the:
------ relevant FAA regulations (same as for sailplanes) and u$hPa SOPs
------ forces involved and effects on the aircraft
------ micrometeorological conditions necessary for safe operation
------ most current and popular opinions regarding the strengths and purposes of the Standard Aerotow Weak Link
----- qualified as Pro Toads in the short clinics which, if we thought them possibilities, could have been done:
------ under supervised conditions
------ in the evening air
---- Holly consulted with concerning doing her first pro toad flight in the lethally turbulent midday conditions then ramping up
- So OTHERS observed SEGMENTS of the accident sequence from their own UNIQUE PERSPECTIVES.
-- How 'bout the conspicuously unidentified:
--- accident flight park operator / Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt? Was he not one of the OTHERS because he observed the whole goddam clusterfuck from before launch through to impact and beyond and not just SEGMENTS?
--- accident tug driver / Accident Pilot In Command / Tex Forrest - who:
---- started off and flew for the entire devolution of the incident in closer proximity to the/his victim than any other known individual
---- was:
----- required to and almost certainly did maintain constant visual contact with his victim through the duration of the tow
----- in flagrant violation of FAA AT Regs and u$hPa AT SOPs regarding weak link configuration
----- the only individual with direct legal responsibility for the conduct of the accident tow
-- Oh. So OTHERS observed SEGMENTS of the accident sequence from their own UNIQUE PERSPECTIVES.
--- NOBODY saw the entire flight from launch to impact - including:
---- Accident Steve Wendt who stated in his 2005/05/29 submitted report to his u$hPa overlords in no uncertain terms that he DID
---- Accident Tex Forrest:
----- Accident Pilot In Command of the tow whose job it was to monitor the condition of his passenger at least until safe altitude had been attained
----- for whom we have Accident Steve reporting NOTHING to indicate:
------ a nanosecond's worth of break in observation
------ any action or lack thereof that sent the shituation further down the toilet than was inevitable as a consequence of the poor decisions of The Accident Pilot
---- Any members of the Volunteer Accident Launch Crew who, confident that The Accident Pilot was totally good to go in midday conditions on her first foray into the realm of pro towing that they turned away so abruptly that they missed her immediately having control problems right off the dolly and completing 3 oscilations before it took her 90 degrees from the tow vehicle upon when the tug pilot hit the release and Holly continued turning away from the tow in a fairly violent exchange of force . It was only upon feeling a substantial ground tremor that he turned back around and realized all had not gone well but having not the slightest clue as to why not.
--- Unique perspectives. No two individuals:
---- were standing close enough together to see a particular SEGMENT of the flight such that their interpretations were the same - including the members of the Volunteer Accident Launch Crew
---- could agree on the relevant issues of the flight because of the widely varying viewing angles
Funny we didn't hear the tiniest hints of anything any of these terminally hopeless confusion issues in either Version 1 or Version 2.
- Accident Steve makes zero note even of a single other witness - let alone anyone with another unique perspective. And Accident Tex was obviously asleep at the switch, looking totally forward the whole time until his ass was getting pulled ninety degrees sideways not to abort the flight before she got too far out of whack - as any appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less would have known to do.
- We've never heard a single note of disagreement from a single individual with a different unique perspective regarding the tiniest detail in either Version 1, 2, or 3 - despite the fact that they contradict the shit outta each other.
- So one really wonders how you managed to concoct the unique full narrative segment perspective of your own, despite not having been in "Virginia" at the time of the "accident". What did you do? Assemble the most convenient unique perspective segments, shred the ones you didn't like and tell their authors to keep their mouths shut, fill in all the inconvenient gaps with u$hPa's unique perspective segments?
Really? Reading Version 1 I got the distinct impression that Accident Steve had the ideal perspective on the incident and everyone and his dog knows that he understands twenty times more about hang gliding than God could ever hope to in in half a dozen eternities.No one had the God's-eye view required to see it all and understand what really happened.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?
God never had the wisdom and exceptionally knowledgeable to sign off Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's instructor rating. Which parts of this picture are you having so much trouble understanding?Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC
BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.
One thing we can focus...
- Other things WE can FOCUS...on would be the change in routine caused by the pilot's change of equipment.
on would be all the contradictions, omissions, misrepresentations, lies, and general sleaziness involved in the whitewashing of this u$hPa / Flight Park Mafia perpetrated atrocity.- She didn't "CHANGE" SHIT - asshole she OMITTED and rendered INERT eighty percent of her already cheap, shoddy, substantially useless excuse for an aerotowing assembly. And she did it after consultation with and approval from unpaid appointed volunteer Blue Sky staffers.
And now that I think of it... If that exceptionally knowledgeable motherfucker had happened to have been available at launch he'd have UNDOUBTEDLY given her the green because she had mainstream aerotowing experience and competence coming outta her ass and this is EXACTLY how EVERYONE who's ever "graduated" to pro toad has done it - not a single individual through one of these fake pro toad clinics Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt pretends he conducts.
The sonuvabitch watched the whole goddam thing from start to the last siren sound fading in the distance and never made the slightest pretense of not realizing who was going up pro toad until it was too late to do anything about anything. There is ZERO difference between him having allowed that tow to proceed from several hundred yards upwind of launch and having been assisting at launch himself and having given her the green to advance to the next level of hang glider aerotowing proficiency. If Holly wasn't qualified to take her first hop this shoddy lethal crap at this point in her career then nobody else ever was in his or hers.
And here's Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt's product Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney lecturing us stupid muppets on the pro toad versus three point issue:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart
The pilot has to DO SOMETHING. Yeah, I think I can probably handle that. Given Holly's ratings, Special Skills signoffs, airtime, experience, accomplishments I'd hazard a guess that she was up to DOING SOMETHING too.Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 12:20:06 UTC
Bad habit #1, not flying the glider... just letting the tug drag you around by the nose, combines with the fact that pro towing REQUIRES the pilot to do something (not let that bar move). So instead of holding the bar where it is, bad habit pilot just lets the tug pull him. This pulls him through the control frame with the same effect as the pilot pulling in... a LOT.
I've seen gliders go negative while still on the cart this way.
The results are never pretty.
And remember...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O
NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC
Landing clinics don't help in real world X/C flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an groomed surface.
Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.
His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the ORF has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of X/C landings and weary pilots.
...when he solved all of our flare timing perfection problems for us half a dozen years ago? Odd that "DOING SOMETHING" was all he ever had to say on the mysteries and subtleties of world class pro towing.Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC
January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone.
- Please explain to me how any of the crap she'd been using to get airborne at that dump merits the designation of "equipment"?
Please don't start going reasonable on us at this point in our DISCUSSION. It could only serve to confuse and derail us.It seems reasonable...
The SO-CALLED "pro-tow"? Interesting tone you're expressing there, Joe. Seems to betray an attitude about not dissimilar to the one of Yours Truly. Think we can expand a little? The SO-CALLED instructional program, aerotow operation, aerotowing equipment, Blue Sky management?...to assume the launching from the shoulders alone (the so-called "pro-tow")...
Well, all elements of aerotowing - aerodynamics; bridles; releases; weak link materials, constructions, strengths, purposes; proficiency, Cone of Safety limits, crash analyses - are strictly matters of opinions anyway... So sure. Why not?...would represent a substantial modification of the entire aerotow system.
Fuck you Joe. u$hPa sleazebags originally obtained their aerotowing exemption on the condition that elements of a set of guidelines be adhered to. Some of the more relevant shit:As pilots of what the FAA would consider a (highly) experimental aircraft...
For the time being note that there's NOTHING in there about any aspect of anything we're doing being the slightest bit "EXPERIMENTAL". The second sentence in the document gives the lie to that claim you conveniently pulled outta your ass. u$hPa is asserting that it knows exactly how to conduct hang glider aerotowing perfectly safely and already has the SOPs in place. And Blue Sky violated the crap outta damn near all of them to achieve the results they did.USHGA - 1985/07
USHGA Aerotow Guidelines
from the USHGA Safety and Training Committee
The FAA has granted the USHGA an exemption that allows aerotowing of hang gliders according to these guidelines. Aerotowing is a new and different way of flying hang gliders and must be done according to these guidelines for safety and legality.
I RATINGS
AEROTOW GLIDER PILOT: This is the rating that allows a pilot to be aerotowed without being observed by an aerotow instructor.
1) Must possess at least a USHGA Intermediate rating.
2) Demonstrate five aerotows under supervision of USHGA Certified Instructor qualified to teach towing. Each flight must demonstrate proper procedures, including smooth, clean launches, proper position in straight flight and turns.
3) Pilot must pass the oral test.
Until a pilot receives this rating, all aerotows must be sponsored by an under the guidance of an aerotow instructor.
AEROTOWING INSTRUCTOR: This is the rating that allows a pilot to teach other pilots to be aerotowed and to teach other pilots to be tug pilots.
1) Must hold a USHGA Instructor card for at least six months.
2) Successfully pass a towing instructor certification program, demonstrating capabilities in the form of aerotowed flights in different conditions and experience teaching pilots to be aerotowed.
TUG PILOT: This is the rating that allows a pilot to tow pilots with an aerotow rating or under the supervision of an aerotowing instructor. It is given by an aerotow instructor who has witnessed a pilot who has flown a minimum of ten aerotows, demonstrating proper procedures, including smooth takeoffs, straight flight and turns, and passed the oral test. Until a pilot receives this rating, all aerotows must be sponsored by and under the guidance of an aerotow instructor. A tug pilot cannot tow a pilot who has fewer than five tows.
II AEROTOWING EQUIPMENT
1) The tow line connection to the towing vehicle must be arranged so as not to hinder the control system of the towing vehicle.
2) A pilot-operational release must connect the tow line to the towing vehicle. This release must be operational with zero line force up to twice the breaking strength of the tow line.
3) A weak link must be placed between the tow line and the release at both ends of the tow line with the forward link ten percent stronger than the rearward weak link. The weak link must have a breaking strength less than 85% the weight of the hang glider and pilot combination, not to exceed 200 pounds.
4) A release must be placed at the hang glider end of the tow line within easy reach of the pilot. This release shall be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the tow line.
5) A drogue device must be placed midway to 3/4 back from the tow vehicle on the tow line to prevent the tow line from reaching the tow vehicle propeller.
6) The tow line must be at least 150% as strong as the weak link in use.
THE AERO TUG: The ultralight used as a tug should have a wing loading so that its best climb speed is 25 to 38 mph (in thermal conditions, best climb speed must be over 30 mph). It must have enough power to tow a hang glider at a rate of climb of at least 300 feet per minute. The tug must have a concave rear view mirror so the tug pilot can see the glider at all times. The tug pilot should be able to operate the forward release without releasing the throttle or any of the flight controls.
THE AEROTOW GLIDER: The towed vehicle must meet or exceed the Hang Glider Manufacturers Association airworthiness standards.
...
A pitch enhancement device may be installed for improved pitch control on tow. Pitch devices must be installed and tuned according to the manufacturer's specifications.
THE AEROTOW BRIDLE: The tow bridle should be tested to a tension of 300 pounds and should release easily at that tension. It should also operate properly with zero tension and be constructed so that it cannot release accidentally.
III OPERATIONS
Aerotowing is complex and must be properly organized to be safe and efficient.
In practice, a particular site and weather pattern will have a standard routing and most pilots will know what to do. It is the launch director's responsibility to make sure everyone knows what to do. Considerations for establishing a routine include pilot skill, surface winds, winds aloft, runway direction, areas of turbulence, lift and sink, emergency landing zones to be used in case of line breaks or engine failures and separation between gliders, obstacles, tug and line. Training flights should be made in calm air.
PREFLIGHT PROCEDURES: Check the tug for adequate fuel supply. Preflight and test fly the tug. Preflight the line by stretching it out on the ground and inspecting its entire length including weak links, all knots, splices and fittings. Worn lines should be replaced. Test the tug release. Hook in to the glider and do a full hang check and then hook on to the tow line. The proper order for hooking in is as follows:
1) Hook in to the glider.
2) Hang check.
3) Hook on to the tow line.
If it becomes necessary to unhook:
1) Release the tow line.
2) Unhook from the glider.
Test the tow bridle release. Pilots are warned to turn their heads to avoid being struck by the release.
LAUNCH PROCEDURES: The tug pilot must take care to avoid causing problems for the glider pilot due to prop wash. Tug and glider pilot must have an established communication system for determining launch initiation. In all cases the glider pilot initiates launch. Slack line takeoffs should be avoided during training flights. Visual contact in the rear view mirror must be maintained at all times. The tug pilot should release the rope if there is any problem. The glider will lift off before the tug and the glider pilot will immediately transition to the base tube for optimal control and fly level about 12 feet above the ground until the tug lifts off and starts climbing.
AEROTOWING FLIGHT PROCEDURES: As soon as the tug lifts off and starts climbing, the glider will also climb and should remain in a position recommended by the tug pilot. If the glider is too high, the glider pilot should correct the relative position of the glider if necessary. Control inputs should be reduced under tow because energy exchange between tug and glider exaggerates response to control inputs.
AEROTOWING POSTFLIGHT PROCEDURE: The glider end of the rope should be checked for accidental knots and untied if necessary. Never tow with a knot in a line because they weaken the rope, cause premature wear and can be very difficult to untie.
And fuck the FAA and ANYTHING it considers EXPERIMENTAL anyway. If it didn't have its head perpetually lodged three feet up its ass it would've NEVER accepted easily reachable releases and weak links that - AT BEST - maxed out almost exactly where their legal minimum for sailplanes starts - the sailplane aerotowing regulations which had gone into effect for hang gliders the September before this Blue Sky atrocity was perpetrated. And LEGITIMATE weak link specs have NEVER been determined through experimentation - just common sense and competence in grade school level arithmetic. Stuff way outta u$hPa's league.
And another thought... If the FAA would consider a hang glider a (highly) experimental aircraft then what the fuck are they doing allowing u$hPa to sell tandem thrill rides to eleven year old kids...
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5788/23461251751_e98b9c7500_o.png
...on the pretense of increasing the overall safety of the sport through tandem instruction?
You can be, Joe. You're an asshole. Me? I never learned anything test flying beyond what Wilbur and Orville had figured out a little over three quarters of a century a few miles up the beach from where I first hooked into a hang glider....we are all a little bit test pilot...
And when I get on the end of a rope in violent thermal conditions behind a 115 horsepower turbocharged tug with some total douchebag driving it and a tow mast breakaway protector installed to REALLY increase the safety of the towing operation I know EXACTLY what I'm up against and what I will and won't be able to deal with. And I finally decided that I couldn't tolerate the front end flagrantly illegal bullshit any more and tried to get something done about it.
- 'Specially the ones they have at shitrigged operations like Blue Sky....even in our routine day-to-day operations.
- Yeah Joe, we're all a little bit test pilot - even in our routine day-to-day operations. Maybe you can cite me one example of one mildly exciting new discovery that's been made in the course of our history starting at any post Wilbur and Orville point you'd care to define as the beginning of it.
- That was the hugest single evolutionary jump in the history of this douchebag sport.Mike Lake
The club purchased a static winch from Len and towing had arrived.
A meeting was arranged sometime later to discuss the way forward. It was well attended and many issues were discussed.
On the 26th September 1979 at the Fleece in Suffolk.
The club had one valuable member (Brian Barry? I can't remember) who had studied tethered flight in some detail. He had been appointed a tow technical adviser.
His name was Brian Pattenden.
During discussions he described his theory that some part of the tow force should go through THE PILOT.
You may wish to reread the above. What was being described was C of M towing. I believe this was a first, worldwide!
It was a radical suggestion at the time and was greeted with silence. However, the seeds had been sown.
Unfortunately, at the same meeting, when asked for his advice on safe towing his answer was 'DON'T DO IT'. This was not what several dozen flight starved pilots wanted to hear. His short reign as tow technical advisor came to an end.
- It shouldn't have happened. It should've been obvious before the first hang glider ever got pulled up by a rope. And hang gliders were getting pulled up by ropes eons before they were ever pulled into the air by harness suspensions connected to guys running down hills. The fact that this innovation came about the way it did at the time it did is ironclad proof that the sport's been massively incompetent with respect to fundamental aeronautical theory since Day One.
- It wasn't a benefit from or consequence of any form of TEST FLYING. The rapid worldwide shift first started arising from one individual capable of thinking about how to tow gliders in the light of aeronautical THEORY. And when Donnell Hewett shortly thereafter came up with a rather warped version of the same concept and tried to present it to US hang gliding by way of u$hPa a bunch of test flying motherfuckers such as yourself immediately silenced him without making the slightest effort to flight test anything he was saying.
- The guy with the brains - more than everyone else in the world involved in hang glider towing at the time (including Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey by the way) - never even stuck around long enough to fly his idea.
- And when Yours Truly implemented the first and last bulletproof, ENGINEERED, aerodynamically clean, internally routed, two point aerotow release system you fuckin' douchebags operatives bent over backwards to ignore it, pretend it didn't exist, piss all over it. You had just about two teaspoons worth over zero interest installing one on your glider. (A Fusion I think it was.)
Like when they begin aerotowing. First they just put an easily reachable bent pin barrel release on their right shoulder loop. The next time out a four foot long bridle is secured at the left tow loop and engaged by the release... ...Then on Day 15 the tug pulls the glider twenty yards down the runway in calm air at a speed not exceeding eight miles per hour.Many have adopted the discipline of only changing one thing at a time in their setup, equipment, or routine, in order to mitigate the dangers of being inadvertently pushed to the outside of their safe flight envelope.
I've always totally fuckin' DESPISED those idiots. A REAL pilot is able to understand and think through all the issues before he goes up. Holly's downfall was trusting total douchebags, letting them do her thinking for her, assuming that something thousands of flyers were doing over hundreds of thousands of tows must be OK.
Holly only changed one thing relevant in this clusterfuck incident. She omitted her primary bridle. The consequences were in the same ballpark for what Rafi Lavin experienced when he load tested his sidewires a second after launching at Funston on 2015/08/23 and one of them changed. But fortunately he was still using the same backup loop he'd been flying with since the beginning of the season so things didn't turn out nearly as badly as they might have otherwise.They would test these changes under benign, controlled conditions, to increase the safety factor, and only then move on to more challenging conditions. Only after they had become comfortable with the new system would they add another change, under the same conditions as before.
- Really? So you're totally discounting the elimination of the weak link about which Accident Steve and Davis were making such big stinks? How very odd.Our accident pilot did indeed make a single change, after seeking the advice of fellow pilots whose opinions she respected - but she flew the new system for the first time under normal soaring conditions.
- Do let us know when you can point to a single instance of any issue that affected her more than what she would've experienced anyway in totally dead air after having rolled off of grass still soaked in morning dew.
Yeah. MAY HAVE. None of you motherfuckers have cited the slightest evidence of her glider having been mildly bumped by the gentlest of puffs but you desperately need something to bolster the legitimacy of the "only change one thing at a time" rule. And Accident Steve needed it to illustrate how fine she'd have been in one of his fake short evening clinics.This may have reduced her safety margin...
- Try "manifested themselves"....so that when the unexpected characteristics of her new towing system manifest...
- What unexpected characteristics? I guess PIO was unexpected by Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt 'cause otherwise he'd have signaled Tex to stand down. But then if they were unexpected by him he'd have had a hard time training her how to avoid doing them in his fake short clinic in evening air - 'specially since he's trying so hard to have us believe that she was set on her course to PIO disaster by strong thermal turbulence.
Total bullshit analysis built on a foundation of total bullshit. Hard to have a Ponzi scheme collapse when you can't get your pyramid more than an inch or two off the ground.
And here I was thinking that PIO was a contributing issue - that she was adjusting TOO quickly and forcefully....she was unable to adjust quickly enough to avoid a serious mishap.
But not by Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and the other top notch professional instructors at Ridgely? I guess their short evening clinics were always booked up months in advance and they didn't consider you a particularly worthy candidate anyway.Over the years, I have been encouraged by fellow pilots to dump my preferred system using the three-point bridle (towing from both shoulders and the carabiner)...
On your starboard downtube where you CAN'T grip it when you need to......and bicycle grip release...
- Well you're a fuckin' US Air Force pilot Colonel, and u$hPa's primary damage control officer, right? If you're not qualified to embrace the "pro-toad" "system" it's hard to say who is. And now that I think of it... I'm really surprised you didn't avail yourself of one of the short pro toad clinics Accident Steve runs in evening air to qualify you for pro towing as safely as you'd be stuffing battens in the setup area and leave you much better qualified to better educate all us stupid muppets regarding what went wrong on Holly's 2005/05/29....and to embrace the "pro-tow" system.
- Who coined the term "pro-tow"?
- With the introduction of the Cosmos trike tug and practical hang glider aerotowing everybody who towed initially was shoulders-only and foot launch. Amateur towing evolved years later and when it did one hundred percent of the pros immediately became amateurs. With the introduction of the Dragonfly it was one hundred percent two point. Then the high performance gliders evolved such that they could fly flatter glides with increased speed and reduced bar pressure and all the cool kids figured that on one point they could stay in position reasonably well and that they'd never have the slightest need for the top half of their pitch control range under any possible circumstances.
- What percentage of the people who fly pro toad are paid to do it? I thought that hang gliding was legally supposed to be recreational/non-commercial.
- When we watch professional snowboarders perform we watch them complete stunning and unbelievably complex maneuvers with high degrees of consistency and success. Can we see anything comparable with respect to pro toad hang glider pilots? A fair number of them I'm sure who go up one point with Novice proficiency ratings.
- In how many other flavors of aviation is one able to progress from the status of incompetent amateur to rock solid professional pilot in the course of a short clinic, if we thought it a possibility, done under supervised conditions in the evening air - by an instructor who couldn't pass a fourth grade English test with a gun to his head?
I have heard all the arguments...
Donnell Hewett - 1980/12
Skyting requires the use of an infallible weak link to place an absolute upper limit to the towline tension in the unlikely event that everything else fails.
Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation," and that "More people have been injured because of a weak link than saved by one."
That's not an ARGUMENT. That's a FACT. When there's less shoddy crap in the airflow there's less shoddy crap in the airflow. Same deal for an Infallible Weak Link that keeps you from getting into too much trouble when you're climbing hard in a near stall situation. See above and ask Zack Marzec if you beg to differ....concerning the obvious performance advantages (less drag)...
Sure. The motherfuckers who are still around to run their stupid mouths 'cause they've never been in an actual emergency lockout situation....and the somewhat less obvious safety advantages (some claim to find it easier to release from tow using the barrel-style release).
Who the fuck cares one way or another what you acknowledge, reject, remain highly skeptical of?I acknowledge some of these arguments, and remain highly skeptical of others.
- You don't have a fraction of the experience or qualifications of the stupid motherfuckers who perpetrated this atrocity - and whose voices are conspicuously absent from this fake "discussion" you u$hPa operative dickheads aren't allowing anyone else to participate in.
- This:
from your close DC neighbor and best hang gliding buddy was the end result of my years of mentoring efforts 38 crow flight miles two and third degrees west of straight north from where Holly would nearly buy it nine years plus a month later. And guess what? Ya still need TWO hands to fly a glider through an emergency situation and ALL mainstream aerotow releases still stink on ice - either, at a minimum, 'cause they're within easy reach or are shit engineered if they're basetube mounted.Steve Kinsley - 1996/05/09 15:50
Personal opinion. While I don't know the circumstances of Frank's death and I am not an awesome tow type dude, I think tow releases, all of them, stink on ice. Reason: You need two hands to drive a hang glider. You 'specially need two hands if it starts to turn on tow. If you let go to release, the glider can almost instantly assume a radical attitude. We need a release that is held in the mouth. A clothespin. Open your mouth and you're off.
And THIS:
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=233
AT releases
was posted a wee bit over eleven weeks prior to impact. She could've aborted the disaster in the first second or at any point thereafter until her Pilot In Command made a good decision in the interest of her safety - after which she needed to have her jaw wired back together and shut. And you oddly weren't even aware of that development from your glider trip carpool buddy.Steve Kinsley - 2005/03/11 02:43:09 UTC
Winter boredom and the Oz Report (Robin Strid - 2005/01/09) resulted in my invention of "the squid" AT shoulder release. This is a two ring (or three - haven't decided which is better) where the final loop runs through a grommet and you hold it in your teeth. Want off? Open your mouth. When you are a hundred feet up and presumably out of danger you slide a barrel (the body of the squid) over the loop which crimps it at the grommet and you have a standard barrel release. I can hold on with my teeth all the way and not use the slider/keeper but gotta be sure I have fresh polident.
Tried it at Manquin and down in Florida. Seems to work fine. (Flew with a standard barrel on the other side just in case.) Also gets a lot of laughs. Show it to you.
Why didn't you just:I have, during calm end-of-day conditions, employed this launch method in order to evaluate those arguments - to help decide if I should make the switch.
- ask Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt? He's the acknowledged master of US hang glider surface and aerotowing. Didn't think you could trust him for a straight answer? Shouldn't that lack of trust have been an element of your so-called "accident report"?
- take the short clinic Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt, if we thought it a possibility, done under supervised conditions in the evening air? Then you'd have been as masterful in the Special Skill as everybody else on Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt's approved pro toad list. Thank you so very much for letting us muppets know just how much validity you attached to this aspect of Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt so called "training program". (Knowing full well that it never actually existed in the first place anyway.)
- Duh.What I found was that the control inputs required when launching using the "pro-tow" were noticeably different from what I was accustomed to when using the three-point system.
- If a system in which the tow force is evenly split between the pilot and the trim point on the keel is three-point then why isn't a "system" in which all of the force is routed through the pilot a two-point?
Catch that, people of varying ages? This is how aerotow people count: Zero - --- - Pro - Three - Many. We see that pattern over and over and over. There's no such thing as "one" point and pro toad is NEVER referred to as two point 'cause all these Three Point douchebags know how stupid they'll sound if they refer to one point as two. And they wanna keep the pilot population as stupid as possible 'cause they know tons of operatives will get sued out of existence if rational thought processes start entering the equations. Same reason there was never any agreement on the breaking strength of the Standard Aerotow Weak Link and post Marzec all references to anything having to do with weak links were put off limits.
Oh, DO continue! I so do love to hear what u$hPa operative fake accident report investigators "BELIEVE".I believe...
"A" point?...that these differences are a direct result of the fact the "pro-tow" pulls the glider/pilot from a point...
Singular. Pretty much a synonym for "one".a (an before a vowel sound) [called the indefinite article]
determiner
1. used when referring to someone or something for the first time in a text or conversation: a man came out of the room | it has been an honor to have you | we need people with a knowledge of languages. Compare with the.
-- used with units of measurement to mean one such unit: a hundred | a quarter of an hour.
-- [with negative] one single; any: I simply haven't a thing to wear.
-- used when mentioning the name of someone not known to the speaker: a Mr. Smith telephoned.
-- someone like (the name specified): you're no better than a Hitler.
- used to indicate membership of a class of people or things: he is a lawyer | this car is a BMW.
- used when expressing rates or ratios; in, to, or for each; per: typing 60 words a minute | cost as much as eight dollars a dozen.
ORIGIN
Middle English: weak form of Old English ān'one'.
Oh. The GLIDER/PILOT system. So a system with TWO main elements. Two main elements which are hopefully securely joined to each other via a carabiner before the heavy one runs off a cliff with the light one......below the CG (center of gravity) of the glider/pilot system.
2-112
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7600/28811055456_925c8abb66_o.png
Two. Pilot...
6-311
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8691/28811052626_37e54c1f64_o.png
...or intended pilot - and glider. Right Joe? Or are you seeing something I'm missing in that second photo?
Three point? Didn't we just establish that there's only two? Maybe you're having problems with your vision. How many fingers am I holding up right now?The three-point configuration...
3-11311
http://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4579/38309011086_f26fabbc50_o.png
(One. But that's apparently not a word in your vocabulary.)
Sure Joe....more nearly exerts force on the glider/pilot along the CG of the system. This results in a pure translation.
Aerotowing 101. Hang 2 level Special Skill foundation level theory. EVERYBODY knows that. How could one POSSIBLY be expected to be allowed out of the classroom without the most fundamental brain-dead obvious understanding of how tow forces affect glider control and performance?The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2017/03/22
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-A. Special Skills attainable by Novice and above (H2-H5).
05. Aerotow
-b. Must demonstrate system set up and pre-flight, including a complete discussion of all those factors which are particular to the specific aerotow system used and those factors which are relevant to aerotowing in general.
Ya think?...If you pull an object from a point out of alignment with the CG of the system, you will experience a rotation.
http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report
Ya think that's why The Accident Pilot stupidly, fourth, pulled in hard right away as she came off the cart and with no experience towing off her shoulders (pro attachment points) she didn't have a feel for the bar pressures that she would experience without the V-bridle (the one that runs between the pro points of the pilot/glider system)?Davis Straub - 2005/06/23 02:00 UTC
Fourth, she pulled in hard right away as she came off the cart. With no experience towing off her shoulders she didn't have a feel for the bar pressures that she would experience without the V-bridle.
And that, fifth, with her arms stupidly straight back and only connected by --- point she had much less control over the glider?Fifth, with her arms straight back she had much less control over the glider.
And that, sixth, she stupidly began to PIO immediately because she was pulled in so hard?Sixth, she began to PIO immediately because she was pulled in so hard.
"A" point again, Joe? A point being her left shoulder and her right shoulder?In the case of the "pro-tow", pulling pilot and glider from a point...
"A" pilot maintaining "THEIR" accustomed bar position. This is most confusing, Joe. Just how many pilots are we talking about here? ---? Pro? Three? Many? If the answer is pro or more might they have different accustomed bar positions?...below the CG, a pilot maintaining their accustomed bar position...
Sure about that? Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt's opus magnum, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney tells us in no uncertain terms......flying off the cart (arms rigid) would experience a nose-up rotation force.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart
...that if the pilot doesn't keep their arms rigid the opposite way - PUSHING FORWARD rather than LOCKED BACK - it pulls them through the control frame with the same effect as them pulling in... a LOT. He's seen gliders go negative while still on the cart that way. The results are never pretty.Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 12:20:06 UTC
Bad habit #1, not flying the glider... just letting the tug drag you around by the nose, combines with the fact that pro towing REQUIRES the pilot to do something (not let that bar move). So instead of holding the bar where it is, bad habit pilot just lets the tug pull him. This pulls him through the control frame with the same effect as the pilot pulling in... a LOT.
I've seen gliders go negative while still on the cart this way.
The results are never pretty.
(And...
069-25104
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1572/26142964830_289bc3f2cb_o.png
...if Ninja Matt relinquishes that light touch with which he's engaging the pro control tubes to rest his arms the glider will continue rolling and correcting to port cause that's the way his hang strap is pulling on the keel - in the direction he's running. Right Joe?)
Yeah?Launching using the "pro-tow", I found myself obliged to counteract this effect by pulling in more than I was accustomed to when using my three-point bridle, in order to maintain the same angle of attack through the air.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22233
Looking for pro-tow release
Zack C - 2011/06/16 03:14:35 UTC
I've never aerotowed pilot-only, but it is my understanding that this configuration pulls the pilot forward significantly, limiting the amount he can pull in further.
You sure about that? You may have an incorrect understanding. At least that's the position of the guy who sets the towing safety equipment standards, writes the Risk Mitigation Plans, selects the Safety Committee officials for all the major u$hPa sanctioned comps.Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 05:11:44 UTC
Incorrect understanding.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/meaneyman/130742003/
Had I not been prepared for this ahead of time, and had I furthermore tried this for the first time during mid-day conditions, I might have found myself in a lockout situation close to the ground before I was able to figure out what was going on.
Are you implying that The Accident Pilot wasn't prepared for this ahead of time?Had I not been prepared for this ahead of time...
WHY THE FUCK NOT - JOE? She was using the SECONDARY BRIDLE component of the "THREE" point assembly u$hPa's 2004 Hang Gliding Instructor of the Year and 2007 NAA Safety Awards recipient sold her and PRESUMABLY taught her to use under the terms of the AT Special Skill for which he trained her and signed her off. How can she POSSIBLY have not been prepared for this ahead of time other than as a consequence of a grossly negligent "instructor" selling rides and doing whatever the fuck he felt like with respect to whatever SOPs he felt like ignoring and/or violating?Joe Gregor - 2006/09
In late August 2002, she learned to aerotow, and had logged approximately 75 aerotows (and over 100 truck tows) by the time of the accident. She currently holds special skills signoffs for AT, FL, PL, ST, and TUR, and has flown a variety of gliders including the Wills Wing Condor, Falcon, Eagle, and Ultrasport, as well as the Moyes Sonic and Litesport 4.
Yeah, those midday conditions... Virtually certain death for anybody but a thirty year Five with a thousand ATs of a Falcon with an extra safe weak link - one with a really long track record but fuzzed a bit to make the track record even longer. Suck my dick, Joe....and had I furthermore tried this for the first time during mid-day conditions...
Yeah. We have a video Zack Marzec posted on 2013/02/01 showing him to be EXTREMELY comfortable with it. Way more comfortable than I'd ever be even on my own system with a competent driver and a front end weak link twenty percent more dangerous than my back end stuff. I guess I'll just never be as cool a dude as most of these guys - until after I've cleared a couple hundred feet anyway.I am sure that, after using this system for a while, I would become comfortable with it.
Yeah?I might have found myself in a lockout situation close to the ground before I was able to figure out what was going on.
Like that incompetent pro toad motherfucker? Maybe if we keep on having more of these Mike Haas, Holly Korzilius, Zack Marzec, Jeff Bohl incidents we can keep learning more totally new lessons from all these new totally unprecedented incidents and be able to figure out what's going on in the intervals between lockout situation onset and impact. Keep up the great work, Joe.Bill Bryden - 2000/02
Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
Sure...Eventually, I might not even recall experiencing any significant difference between the two methods.
1-1225
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7436/13700570583_049b5b7ded_o.png
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/14097626583_03972773c6_o.png
03-02421
Mostly just different individual preferences, opinions, correct and incorrect understandings.
I'll say! Have you checked your Version 3 report against Davis Dead-On Straub's Version 2 and Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt's Version 1? Hard to believe they're all from the same state in the same month with the same people involved. Hang glider pilot human memory - not to mention attention span - appears to be well south of what you get with four month old Golden Retriever puppies.The human memory is highly malleable.
But we're all good to go with the top notch instructors like Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt who uses our fellow pilots to relay his advice to launching products of his top notch aerotowing training program. That way when --- or pro of us ends up in intensive care or a body bag fifteen or twenty minutes after the midday conditions get the better of us - mostly due to our failures to quickly and fully recognize and appreciate the hazards of the shituations we're in - the buck can always be passed to an unidentified designated fellow pilot who will know enough to keep his mouth shut if he envisions himself in some kind of future hang gliding career. (And ditto for all the other...For this reason if for no other, we should all exhibit caution when accepting advice from our fellow pilots.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
...eyewitnesses.)Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC
Eye witnesses said the glider tumbled twice and then struck the ground with the base tube low. Due to the extremely low altitude, there was no time for the pilot to deploy his reserve parachute.
Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation. I have personally had numerous weak link breaks on tow, both low and high, after hitting turbulence and have never felt in danger of a tumble. I have witnessed countless others have weak link breaks with no serious problems. We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before and knew how to react properly. Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida, the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.
Strong dust devils in Florida definitely do exist even though they are rare. My wife had a near miss when she encountered a severe dusty a couple years ago and I almost lost a brand new $18,000 ATOS VX when it was torn from its tie down and thrown upside down.
I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know. Zach was a great guy with an incredible outlook and zest for life. He will be sorely missed.
Or...What may seem easy, obvious, and straightforward to those who have seen-it/done-it, may represent a significant challenge to the new practitioner.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG
...an old pro toad with experience coming outta his ass who encounters some ACTUAL issues related midday conditions - the only ones people interested in stuff better than...
...twelve minute sleds bother setting up for.Holly Korzilius - 2006/09
It was May, and my friend and I spent the day at the local flight park. I did not fly that day. Although conditions were safe to fly in, conditions did not look good for staying up.
Well said...Those pilots holding instructor ratings have received the extensive training and experience required to safely and effectively relate their advice to those learning new techniques for the first time.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
...Joe. Neither Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, who made the news crashing both a hang and para gliding tandem thrill rider, nor Steve...Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC
Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?
...Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt, who got one of his AT products two thirds killed in the incident under discussion and had one of his foot launch products run off a cliff without his glider four months and three days later, could've said it any better.Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC
BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.
And thank you so very much by illustrating with this five ton load of pseudo-intellectual total shit how totally nonexistent qualified instruction is anywhere on this continent.Pilots who contemplate attempting a new maneuver, flying with a new type of wing or harness, or trying out a new type of flight-critical system (such as a new-style tow release) are encouraged to seek out qualified instruction if they wish to preserve their safety margin while doing so.
- Eat shit and die.Fly high and safe.
- Yeah Joe. With all the low-life scumbags and damage control operatives like Accident Steve, Davis, and you running everything, high is about the only place we have a reasonable chance of flying safe. Within two hundred feet of the hard stuff however... Total dice roll.
...
Here's the record of my one point aerotows:
0851 was my first ever AT. Foot launch, one point, overly fast first generation tug, first modern double surface glider with HUGE pitch pressure, couldn't kick into the boot of my Roberson cocoon harness, was being pulled up by my armpits, coming down with the flu, had armpit pain flashes for days afterwards was looking almost straight down at the trike when I made the easy reach to my three-string lanyard. It was a MISERABLE experience but there was never the slightest danger of a crash. Compare/Contrast with 2005/05/29 Holly Korzilius at a hugely established AT operation with a modern tug.Flight - Date - Glider - Launch - Tug - Driver - Airport
---
0851 - 1986/08/01 - UP Comet 165 - foot - Cosmos trike / La Mouette Azur 19 wing - Jon Leak - Robinson Private Airport, Benedict MD
1624 - 1994/09/04 - WW HPAT 158 - foot - Mountaineer trike / 65 HP Rotax - 65 HP Rotax - Willie Hill - Pike County Airport, Waverly OH
1807 - 2003/09/14 - WW UltraSport 2 160 - dolly - 914 Dragonfly - Adam Elchin - Ridgely MD
1813 - 2004/09/20 - WW U2 160 - Flightstar - dolly - Tex Forrest - Manquin VA
1859 - 2007/05/14 - WW HPAT 158 - dolly - 914 Dragonfly - --- - Ridgely MD
And let's take a look at this two pointer:
the season prior to my first and last visit to and AT at Manquin - 'cause it was my previous and only other ride up behind a Flightstar.1806 - 2003/07/26 - WW HPAT 158 - dolly - Flightstar - Les Taff - Ridgely MD
1813 / 2004/09/20 - a bit over eight months before Holly. I make the long haul to Manquin because I STUPIDLY think a douchebag like Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt would have the slightest interest in the two point, internally routed / built-in AT release system I'd spent years developing. Rob Kells is down there demoing Wills Wing gliders.
Got a shot at the new U2 160 (not something in my repertoire). Rob had it rigged with a Quallaby two point piece o' crap - spinnaker shackle, cable, bicycle release lever securely velcroed to the starboard control tube within very easy reach. I'd never flown with shoddy garbage like that before in my life and I wasn't about to start on a lovely clean glider like that so I uninstalled it, set it aside, and hooked up with my then secondary twin barrels assembly.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8313526097/
Nobody there knew anything about my then three flight long pro toad history, asked me if I'd had any pro toad experience, or had successfully completed a short pro toad clinic, if we thought it a possibility, done under supervised conditions in the evening air. And Yours Truly had never had the slightest benefit of any other formal or informal instruction or coaching from Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt or his wonderful Blue Sky training program.
Holly should've been head and shoulders above anything T** at K*** S****** ever was or could hope to be...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC
BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.
Is this a joke ?
...according to popular wisdom.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
Jump to top:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post10976.html#p10976
