http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11288
*???tandems???*
IcRus - 2009/03/29 18:54:17 UTC
Hey JR, you want personal attacks, here is one...
You are a MORON!!!
Well put.
We should all be ambassador's to our sport.
He is. The very essence.
So what is your record? How many Tandem incidents have you been involved in and what were the outcome?? (injury to yourself, student, deaths)???
For the purpose of the exercise - two dead.
I wouldn't let my worst enemy fly with you.
I would. It would take the place of an innocent victim.
I don't know you...
I've know his since near his Day One. Took about three encounters to totally despise him.
...and I have never seen you fly...
He doesn't fly hang gliders the way they're intended to be flown. He figured out very early in the game that if one flies thermals one can get his butt kicked by a newish Two on any given day. And then one has a problem selling oneself as God's Gift to Avaition. So he went to tugs because all tug pilots are amazing and tandem thrill rides 'cause one always has an excuse for coming down and gets to land on wheels all the time without anyone saying anything.
...but judging by your behavior here and O(z)ther sites...
Let's not forget CHGA.
...you seem like a Egocentric Moron...
Seem?
...who just wants to always play Devil's Advocate.
Playing Devil's Advocate is a GOOD thing and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney never does that. Just spews whatever rot he feels like 'cause hang gliding culture has devolved to kiss tug driver ass at every opportunity.
Hey Just my $0.02
I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way...
Check out Team Kite Strings sometime.
Jim Rooney - 2009/03/29 19:12:53 UTC
IcRus
If people want to have a discussion, I'm happy to do so.
Unless they start scoring points. Then they go on Your Ignore list and you make a stink about "civility" and get the discussions looked down and your adversaries silenced and banned.
When they come at me guns blazing away...
That happen to you a lot? Despite the political clout you've cornered? Why do you think?
...sorry, I'm not just going to sit there and take it.
See above.
z7 I believe thinks that I slighted his friend. Everything he's said since has been retribution for this. He has a go at me any chance he gets.
Me too. Don't hear you responding to anything though.
I say anything between me and his friend is between me and his friend.
I say if they're issues relevant to the sport they're not.
By his logic I should be crucifying him for having a go at my dead friend... even before he was in the ground.
Can you quote him identifying you as a friend - before he was in the ground?
So you're certainly free to join him in bashing me.
That's fine.
Just don't expect me to sit back and take any of it.
Nah, I expect you to deploy some declare-victory-and-leave strategy whenever you start getting your butt kicked.
IcRus - 2009/03/29 19:45:51 UTC
OK JIm, you have a point, but you asked for personal insults
No need to ease up.
OK here is a discussion for you...
What is your record? any tandem incidents? injuries to yourself or your student?
Rooney doesn't do students - just bucket listers.
deaths?
Just curious...
IcRus - 2009/03/29 20:16:13 UTC
OK JIM, here is more "discussion" for you...
You don't mind naming "Wallaby" in this statement, so why is it that you don't name the park that you are referring to??? is it Quest, Highland??
Still curious...
Jim Rooney - 2009/03/29 20:32:51 UTC
Wow, didn't think I'd be taken as trying to hide anything...
Yeah, you operate under the delusion that you've been able to hide EVERYTHING.
No worries.... my info is all public knowledge.
Show us the video, motherfucker.
Ok... that "other flight park".
Highland Aerosports, Ridgely MD.
Not anymore. Not ever again.
Absolutely no accidents.
Ignoring two dead tug pilots, one dead free flyer, one seriously and permanently mushed brain, one broken neck on a ridiculously crosswind pro toad launch, the usual assortment of stunt landing broken arms.
You can drop the Wallaby/Quest BS at the door.
You can go fuck yourself. Ditto for anyone who tolerates you.
Me... clip in failure 2006, Coronet Peak NZ. Extreme Air hang gliding.
Yeah. Extreme. Just what we need.
(btw, everyone seems to miss the fact that it was _during_ my hang check).
What a bunch of stupid muppets we are for not getting something that's never been reported and makes no sense whatsoever.
Yes, tandem. Passenger was fine...
Despite you having dived her into the powerlines by dangling from the basetube.
...visited me in the hospital.
Told you what an excellent pilot you were, not to worry, this shit can happen to anyone.
Me? multiple injuries. Two and a half months in hospital.
Entirely on New Zealand's dime - 'cause of the great job you do in bring in tourist revenue.
"asking for personal attacks"
I was talking to z7, not you.
I was being sarcastic, snarky, whatever you wish to call it. He was having a go at me (again), and I was having a go right back.
As for playing devil's advocate... you can see it that way if you wish.
From my perspective, I'll voice the unpopular opinion when it's what I believe.
Belief based aviation - since you're totally clueless on aeronautical theory. Hook in.
I invariably get told to hook in when I do so.
Go fuck yourself. See? You DON'T invariably get told to hook in. (What the fuck does that mean?)
It ruffles some feathers, but that's all fine by me.
Yeah, what isn't?
I voice a lot of popular opinions as well, but that stuff doesn't cause a big stink, so people don't remember that.
So if you voice the popular opinion that the keel is the tube that runs down he middle of the glider that won't cause a big stink and people won't remember. Got it.
It's all good.
People can take away whatever they like.
Suck my dick.
whitemaw - 2009/03/29 22:25:48 UTC
Decatur, Georgia
This is not meant to be funny....I ask because I'm curious from a learning perspective. How do you have a clip-in failure during a hang check, and sustain severe injuries?
Easy. You do your hang check after you've run off the ramp. Same deal with hook-in checks and sidewire load tests.
Thanks.
Don't thank him now. He won't respond for another five days. Probably read his post and realized how off the scale stupid - even for him - it was.
Jason Boehm - 2009/04/01 18:37:18 UTC
id still like to hear an answer to this one
Marco Weber - 2009/04/03 14:45:47 UTC
Henson Gap
Jim Rooney - 2009/04/03 23:24:31 UTC
selbaer... I've detailed it all in a PM to Jason...
Oh. So if someone asks you a question on a public forum you answer it in a private message to somebody else. That also makes perfect sense.
I'm sure he'd be happy to pass it along to ya if you'd really like.
So why aren’t YOU happy to pass it along to HIM - but not the public forum - if he'd really like?
Jim Rooney - 2009/03/29 20:32:51 UTC
Wow, didn't think I'd be taken as trying to hide anything...
No worries.... my info is all public knowledge.
So very obviously "YOUR" info ISN'T all public knowledge and you ARE trying to hide stuff.
The ultra-short version goes something like this...
Oh. We get the ULTRA-SHORT version which goes SOMETHING like this. So what is it you're leaving out and distorting/misrepresenting?
...(dawning firesuit for the ensuing b*tchfest that always follows)....
Don't worry, you're just giving us the ultra-short version which goes something like this. Perish the thought that we should get a detailed honest report and the video.
The trouble with clipin procedures (or any procedure for that matter) is...
That "clipin" isn't an actual word.
...when interrupted...
By what?
...you must remember which step you are on.
Thank you so very much Mister Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney. None of ever understood anything about our decades of unhooked launches before.
Checklists are good things, but this is their inherent weakness.
Oh, that is so profound sounding. Lemme paraphrase... Checklists are a mile south of totally useless on the hook-in issue.
I went straight from clipping my passenger in (insert interruption here)...
No. YOU insert it, MOTHERFUCKER. What happened? Did she have really nice tits?
...to thinking I'd just finished my hang check.
Wow. And nobody's ever reported having done that before or watching someone die after having done that.
Note... I didn't say skipping it,
So far you haven't said much of anything.
I said thinking I'd just finished it.
Oh, so you didn't DELIBERATELY fail to perform a hang check. And a bit earlier you didn't DELIBERATELY fail to hook in. What a most unfortunate coincidence.
Not only were hangchecks legally mandatory...
Despite the fact that their well known by people with functional brains to INCREASE the likelihood of unhooked launches - as you so beautifully demonstrated with this incident.
I had two other people helping me with them.
1. Group intelligence at its finest. Take the IQ of the stupidest individual in the group and divide by the number of the members in the group.
2. How 'bout your student/victim? Did you brief her on this issue that would have you three dildos flying her into the powerlines? Sure ya did. But this is the ultra-short version goes something like this.
None of us caught it. How's it happen?... get in a rush.
Guess you can't tell us the reason for the rush that almost killed your victim and put you into the hospital for two and a half months 'cause this is the ultra short version.
So yeah... while people find it quite easy to brush it all off saying "always do a hang check and you'll never launch unhooked"... I equate this to saying "always hook up your caribiner and you'll never launch unhooked"... while both are equally as true... both are equally as useless as advice.
So...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4247
Hook in failure in New Zealand
Jim Rooney - 2006/09/25 11:37:18 UTC
i've been preaching this stuff for a long time... that's the irony... i was one of those 'hang checks will save you' guys.
christ... my email was jim @hangcheck.com!
i was the religious finatic about checking.
i did do hookin checks (after hang checks)
i did all the stuff you guys are saying will save you
guess what?
all that stuff is good stuff to do... it helps with other problems. but it helps with other problems
if you think that you're immune to omissions because you this, or you do that, then god help you.
...what revelation did you have that convinced you to stop doing hook-in checks (after hang checks)? Way too time consuming? 'Specially when you're in a rush?
You rather conspicuously haven't mentioned hook-in checks in this ultra short version. With what other problems do they help?
A hook-in check isn't something one does AFTER HANG CHECKS, dickhead. It's something one does JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH - like it says in your fucking rating REQUIREMENTS.
And can you cite anyone who makes an effort to run hook-in checks having ever launched unhooked?
Flame on kids.
No one ever listens anyway.
Maybe they'd listen better if you weren't just another arrogant, condescending, incompetent asshole who nearly kills himself and his passenger by omitting the most critical steps in the setup, preflight, and launch procedures.
flyhg1 - 2009/04/04 12:42:45 UTC
Like most other "procedures", every clip in procedure I have ever heard of will achieve its intended end result if performed as designed every time. Unfortunately, we're all human and because of this we are incapable of complying with the most essential part of that statement, regardless of the procedure, and no matter how "good" we think we are.
It's funny how the brain works sometimes. In my case, I knew I would never launch unhooked because I used the aussie method right from the time I made my first mountain flight. You would never see me walking around with my harness on, ever. After flying the mountain for a couple of years one day a few of us were back at the training hill having some fun. I had just made a flight, unhooked at the bottom, and carried the glider back up. I sat down under the glider for a minute to rest while I waited for the next guy to come over for his flight. Then, someone suggested that I make another flight to try something he wanted to experiment with. I agreed, and said I'd be ready in a minute after a little more rest.
So there I am, sitting under the glider with a harness on. In my head, situationally I know absolutely (subconciously) that this means I am hooked in because of the discipline I believe I have ingrained into myself after two years of using the aussie method at the mountain. Without actually conciously thinking about it my brain already knows I am hooked in (just like Jim was absolutely certain that he had checked when he hadn't; confusing a past memory with a current situation). So, I pick up the glider and launch unhooked. I cannot even begin to tell you how shocked I was that this happened, and it was a real eye opener for me as far as realizing where the real weaknesses lie in how we do things (in my opinion anyway).
A few years ago I watched a friend launch in his sailplane with the canopy unlatched. He had previously closed it and checked that it was latched, then opened it again due to a delay with the launch. When he reclosed it he didn't actually latch it, but in his mind he confused the memory of latching and checking it the first time with the second time. Just as the glider lifted off the runway the canopy flew open, and there was nearly an accident.
Some of you may think that you are immune to something like this because of the way you do things. My advice in that case - look out. I was lucky, I got to learn this lesson without suffering serious injury, or worse.
I so do love it when these Aussie Methodist dickheads launch unhooked - exactly as and for the reason any common sense discussion predict and previous reports verify they will.
Jim Rooney - 2009/04/04 17:20:08 UTC
It's funny how the brain works sometimes
So true.
Do tell us all about how our human brains work - using yours as the yardstick of course. And now that you have all this extra time on your hands after having given us the ultra short version that goes something like this.
I catch people out on our scooter tow system this way from time to time. Being at a flight park, you can't really launch unhooked (none of the regulars footlaunch at our place). But then along comes the scooter... and exactly the same scenario as your training hill one.
Fortunately with the scooter, the only damage is to the ego.
Didn't you just tell us that you catch them? So obviously you don't - you're LYING. So tell us how you and your fellow scooter tow drivers aren't as incompetent and negligent as you and your crew were at Coronet Peak, what's causing all these rushes for all these unhooked scooter tow launches, why you're obviously not teaching, requiring, doing ANY hook-in checks.
Really opens some eyes.
Good thing. Get their eyes open there and they won't launch unhooked from McConnellsburg and Whitwell.
Steve Wendt even warns his students that he will catch them out. Then he intentionally rushes them or distracts them at the right moment.. and wamo... he's gotten every single person he's done this to (so far).
And then they go to Whitwell and Coronet Peak and launch unhooked anyway. So what's his purpose in rushing and distracting them at the right moment? Does it prevent them from being rushed or distracted where they're playing for keeps?
Excellent stories man.
Yeah man. Excellent storries. Man. (Keep calling everybody "man". It makes you sound so manly.)
08-19
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5277/30076449505_1f6ed2f804_o.png
Matt Pericles - 2009/04/05 00:26:32 UTC
Roswell, Georgia
When I was using the school's training harnesses and knee hangers, I kept the carabiner in my right hand until I hooked in.
Hard to see anything going wrong with that plan.
I figured it would be hard to forget that way.
Pure genius. We should all do this. Hard to imagine needing to do anything prior to launch that would require the use of BOTH hands.
Of course, we always did a hang check...
Of course you did. ALWAYS.
...plus we were under our instructor's supervision.
Guess he made sure you always kept your carabiner in your right hand until you hooked in.
Now that I have a pod harness, I use the Aussie method and a hang check.
Great! The two methods we've just seen fail in the past couple posts.
SlingBlade - 2009/04/05 04:18:09 UTC
I was recently doing hill training (I got my H2 with aerotow) and I launched unhooked when doing my preparation flights at the bottom of the hill. Sure, there was zero chance of injury, and to carry the glider back you pretty much need to unhook, but it was still a huge eye opener. I didn't realize I wasn't hooked in until I had ran a LONG way. If I had been on a mountain I would of been dead or seriously injured. I decided then and there that I will follow the "aussie" method when at the mountains, and I hope to god that is good enough, because I can't ignore the fact that 1 simple mistake is enough to kill you in this sport.
See above, dickhead.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31781
Another hang check lesson
Alan Deikman - 2014/09/23 19:47:06 UTC
Amazing how when this topic comes up every time you see people argue the same arguments over and over again. It has been a classic (although niche) endless Internet flame topic.
I suspect that some of the parties that have posted in threads like these before are refraining now since they have learned that it is nearly (completely?) impossible to change people's minds on the topic.
For my part I will just refer you to the classic Tad Eareckson essay which I call "
the gun is always loaded" which is a bit overworked but probably all you will ever need to read regarding FTHI. A lot of people will find it gores their particular sacred Ox, but I have never seen anyone point out a flaw in his logic.