You are NEVER hooked in.

[Steve Davy]

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - Charles Darwin

[bobk]

Bob you'r full of shit.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - Charles Darwin

These quotes go surprisingly well together.

[Steve Davy]

Indeed. Look up "weather vain" when you get some free time.

[bobk]

Indeed. Look up "weather vain" when you get some free time.

I can understand the term "weather vane". That's what gliders tend to do naturally. But if you're standing in a strong crosswind on a steep slope and the outboard wing starts lifting, the list of choices look like this (with combinations possible):

1. Rotate the glider to pull the rising wing backward thus lowering its airspeed and lift (requiring torque)
2. Back up to pull the glider out of the lift band (reduces forces, but doesn't directly correct the imbalance)
3. Pull in to lower the angle of attack (reduces lift, but imbalance may continue due to different angles of attack on each wing)
4. Attempt to pull the rising wing down (which will accelerate it forward and worsen the imbalance ... not recommended)
5. Launch in a banked turn ... strongly NOT recommended

Of these 5, the most effective (and rapid) correction is #1. Trying to accomplish this while the glider has been placed higher into the aiflow for a lift and tug only worsens the situation. I'm happy to hear a different point of view, but simply saying that I'm "full of shit" doesn't help anyone.

[miguel]

I recently watched a pilot launch with a tight strap on a turbulent mountain launch. He brought his own wire crew. The wire crew took their positions nose, keel and each wire. The glider was lifted up by all to tighten the strap. Each of the wire crew was calling out the pressure they were feeling on the glider. As the cycles blew through, the group would adjust the position of the glider in unison. They did this for about 15 minutes. Finally, the nose guy fell to the ground and the rest of the group and glider advanced. The pilot got off with a shakey launch.

The rest of the plots made the normal nose down, run hard, launches.

Bob ain't full of shit; It's you that needs to get out a little more and fly the mountains.

Bob you're full of shit. Go learn how to launch with a tight hang strap!

[Steve Davy]

#5 has worked well for me.

[bobk]

#5 has worked well for me.

If it works well for you, then by all means, don't let me interfere with your continued success.

[Tad Eareckson]

Bob,

This is what Tad doesn't seem to get.

Yeah, I probably don't get it 'cause it's a totally imaginary problem.

He doesn't seem to understand that any lifting of the pilot's body reduces the pilot's ability to control the glider on the ground.

Sure. If you're stating that it must be true. It's OBVIOUSLY not gonna get EASIER if the glider's floating in the wind and taking all the weight off of your arms and shoulders.

But in difficult conditions he's risking a big problem to solve something that could be more safely and easily solved with the kind of hook in check that most of us do.

- If you're defining "us" as the US hang gliding population at large, the kind of hook-in check that most of us do is a hang check at the back of the ramp one to fifteen minutes prior to launch.

- And OF COURSE that's ALWAYS much SAFER 'cause it's not on the ramp - as long as your memory's perfect and you don't ever get discombobulated by distractions.

Frictional forces are typically defined as the product of the coefficient of friction (a property of the surfaces)...

Dude! I was trying to torque my glider into the wind but my feet just kept slipping on the...
...painted ramp.
...loose sand.
...wet grass.
...entrails of the moron who foolishly attempted a lift and tug a half an hour ago.

As the glider begins to lift you, you lose some of that normal force and you proportionally lose your ability to apply torque to the glider.

Dude! I was trying to torque my U2 160 into the wind but my feet just kept slipping when I had my nose up enough to generate the ten pounds of lift I needed to feel my leg loops tugging.

I couldn't figure out what the problem was 'cause Mike had just torqued HIS U2 160 with the leg loops pulling hard just fine.

Then it came to in a FLASH! Mike hooks in at the TOP of the weight range - 260 pounds! I'm at the bottom - 160! So I just ballasted up my harness to make up the difference and... END OF PROBLEM!!!

As the glider begins to lift you, you lose some of that normal force and you proportionally lose your ability to apply torque to the glider.

Yeah. We hear the laments of people with this problem so much - and those are just the ones who survived the torque failures in good enough shape to still be able to communicate.

If you combine this with the rapidly increasing forces as you elevate the glider into the wind...

Yeah, RAPIDLY. Especially for your taller pilots.

...you're creating a situation where it's much more likely for the glider to get out of control.

If you can't control the pitch to whatever degree of lift you want then you're almost certainly in the wrong sport.

Now I know there are excellent pilots with such highly refined instincts and reactions, that this is not a problem.

Yeah, we've even got a special term for them - Hang Ones.

But that's not the vast majority of weekend pilots who just want to get safely off the hill.

With or without their gliders. The important thing is to get safely off the hill. Details can always be ironed out later.

For them (and that includes me), it's much better to reduce the failure modes at launch by doing the hook in check with the safety of a crew holding the glider than it is to try to do two things at once (checking and launching).

Bullshit.

- When I was at Lookout - The Heart Of Darkness, Taberville...

Every single glider I watched leaving the ramp in light air prepped and went off with slack suspension.

And every single glider I watched leaving the ramp in crew conditions had tight suspension throughout the whole procedure. And I guarantee you that had NOTHING to do with training. It just happens by default in the wind and it's easier and better in any way you wanna name.

- And any time you've got an adequate crew - which rarely means more that a person on each sidewire - you can do pretty much whatever the fuck you want with the glider with zilch in the way of risk.

- Let's pretend for a moment that these concerns AREN'T the pure lunacy we know them to be and that doing two things at once (checking and launching) is a nearly certain express ticket to Hell. Is there some problem with letting the suspension tighten two seconds before lowering the glider back down six inches and out of the deadly blast and turbulence layer?

Checking is checking, and launching is launching.

And yet there are SO MANY PEOPLE - myself included - who, irrespective of hook-in check issues, deliberately hike the wing up in light air before they start their launch runs so it's better under control right from the start and doesn't hafta float up before it starts doing the job of lifting you.

Steve,

Bob you'r full of shit.

Any way you could go back and put a comma and "e" in that sentence? There are occasions when I could really use that quote if you fixed it up a little.

Bob,

Actually, I always launch with a tight hang strap.

No ya don't. The strap always (so far anyway) becomes tight sometime in the course of the launch.

That's when the glider lifts me off the hill.

- IF you're as connected to it as you're ASSUMING you are.
- So far anyway.
- When it's too late to abort.
- Especially if the hill is a ramp, cliff, or towline. (Say howdy to Bille Floyd for me next time you see him.)

But I don't tempt fate by sticking my glider up into the wind (without a wire crew!!)

- And what's stopping you from getting a wire crew? Not considered cool west of the Great Plains?
- Yeah, I so often hear the gurus admonishing the Hang Twos. "Make sure you keep that wing low, back, and out of the airflow!!!"

...just to see if my leg straps are tight.

Lemme 'splain sumpin' to ya, Bob... The purpose of this exercise IS NOT to "JUST TO SEE IF YOUR LEG STRAPS ARE TIGHT." The purpose of this exercise is to prevent forum postings like:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1149
Team Challenge: Daily Update Thread

Holly Korzilius - 2005/10/01 18:19:55 UTC

Incident at 2005 Team Challenge

I don't have many details at this point, but I just got a call from Scott. Bill Priday launched from Whitwell without hooking in. Scott indicated there was about a hundred drop off from launch. Bill's status is unknown at this time. Please pray for him!

I will provide updates as I get them from Scott.

Just seeing that your leg straps are tight is a real good indication that your carabiner isn't dangling behind your knees when you're on the ramp.

But if you're standing in a strong crosswind on a steep slope and the outboard wing starts lifting, the list of choices look like this (with combinations possible):

1. Rotate the glider to pull the rising wing backward thus lowering its airspeed and lift (requiring torque)
2. Back up to pull the glider out of the lift band (reduces forces, but doesn't directly correct the imbalance)
3. Pull in to lower the angle of attack (reduces lift, but imbalance may continue due to different angles of attack on each wing)
4. Attempt to pull the rising wing down (which will accelerate it forward and worsen the imbalance ... not recommended)
5. Launch in a banked turn ... strongly NOT recommended

6. Don't stand in a strong crosswind and a steep slope without somebody on your outboard wing ... strongly recommended.

Of these 5, the most effective (and rapid) correction is #1.

Sorry, I gotta go with Six. In fact, I think Six should actually be One in a list of one.

3. Pull in to lower the angle of attack (reduces lift, but imbalance may continue due to different angles of attack on each wing)

Wouldn't that help stop your feet from rotating whenever you tried to torque the glider and allow you to yaw it while maintaining ten pounds of lift to keep your suspension tight enough to feel?

Trying to accomplish this while the glider has been placed higher into the aiflow for a lift and tug only worsens the situation.

Next time you're out on the hill how 'bout putting a wind gauge into the flow at safe glider down and deadly glider up levels so we can quantify this. Better strap it to your wrist for the high position in case it gets torn out of your hand.

(Steve, how are you coming on that editing job?)

miguel,

I recently watched a pilot launch with a tight strap on a turbulent mountain launch.

Who? Pat Denevan? Dennis Pagen? George Stebbins? Doug Hildreth? Rob Kells?

He brought his own wire crew. The wire crew took their positions nose, keel and each wire. The glider was lifted up by all to tighten the strap. Each of the wire crew was calling out the pressure they were feeling on the glider. As the cycles blew through, the group would adjust the position of the glider in unison. They did this for about 15 minutes. Finally, the nose guy fell to the ground and the rest of the group and glider advanced. The pilot got off with a shakey launch.

AND ALL BECAUSE OF A TIGHT STRAP!!! Whoa! I never considered that before! Guess I need to seriously rethink a few things.

The rest of the plots made the normal nose down, run hard, launches.

All, of course, with their straps safely and thoroughly slackened the whole time between the hang check in the setup area and the point at which they left the ramp - including the fifteen minutes they waited for the evil lift and tugger to dick around and get airborne and plotted what they were gonna do to him in the LZ with no wuffos around.

Raean Permenter - 1998/01/12 00:06

I talked with Bob's wife, Jeannie, and Bob Sunday morning. All considered, he's doing well. He's had two surgeries and had pins inserted in his wrists. The prognosis appears good. Jeannie said his injuries are broken bones in both wrists, a couple of fingers, right leg, and foot bones.

But don't worry, that plot made the normal, nose down, run hard launch - not the least bit shaky! VERY confident, in fact.

Just 'cause somebody buckles his seat belt before he pulls out of the driveway doesn't necessarily mean he's not gonna wrap his car around a telephone pole on the way to the grocery store.

And just 'cause a hundred drivers make it from New York to LA just fine without once buckling their seat belts doesn't make driving to the grocery store without one a super idea.

Bob ain't full of shit...

Not on every issue.

It's you that needs to get out a little more and fly the mountains.

And you're assuming he doesn't because?

Steve,

#5 has worked well for me.

At Jockeys Ridge in relatively light air I would frequently recruit a tourist to pull one of my stiff Comet wings down to help get me started on my first turn.

Bob,

If it works well for you, then by all means, don't let me interfere with your continued success.

If something works for one person it will probably work for all of them. Aerodynamics generally aren't too concerned about individual personalities.

[Steve Davy]

Bob, I apologize for my rude remark.

[Tad Eareckson]

By which I'm guessing you mean...

Bob, you're full of shit. Go learn how to launch with a tight hang strap!

I wouldn't worry too much about it.

- In this game it's way more important to be accurate than polite and that statement WAS entirely accurate.

- There are other and much better ways to be rude than saying that someone who is full o' shit is full o' shit. The best one is to make a bunch of ludicrous full o' shit statements then walk out of the conversation without addressing or even bothering to read the response.

Based upon the fact that Bob hasn't been logged in here since a minute and five seconds after his last post over half a month ago I'm guessing he hasn't even bothered to read my response (or your apology).

- We've killed dozens and probably bashed up - along with their gliders - untold scores of people in this sport for the sole reason that they didn't verify their connections within two seconds of launch.

- I've NEVER ONCE found the slightest evidence that anyone:

-- who ever got embarrassed, battered, or killed as a consequence of starting off with a dangling carabiner was unable to or would've paid a price for attempting to tighten his suspension within the prior two seconds

-- whose carabiner WAS engaging the hang strap paid any price whatsoever by lifting or allowing to be lifted his wing the six to eight extra inches it generally takes to tighten the suspension within two seconds of an intent to launch

There are three types of people in this game - thems what:

- tighten their suspension within two seconds of every intent to launch and are pretty damn bulletproof;

- are physically incapable of tightening their suspension within two seconds of every intent to launch;

- spend enormous amounts of time coming up with lunatic "theories" about why people will be maimed and killed in unprecedented droves if they start tightening their suspension within two seconds of every intent to launch - without the slightest shreds of evidence or logic to back them up - and/or explaining why it's totally unnecessary for people to tighten their suspension within two seconds of any intent to launch.

Of the people in Category 2 there is NO ONE who is incapable of tightening his suspension within two seconds of every intent to launch in a bit of wind and/or with a couple of people on the sidewires.

We make it standard and mandatory operating procedure to verify connection within two seconds of every intent to launch then the dangling-from-the-basetube problem disappears. But Category 3 individual liberties people and Aussie Methodist fascists are gonna make sure that NEVER happens.