You are NEVER hooked in.

[Tad Eareckson]

Yes, because leg loops check is part of the inspection.

Yeah, it's not like anyone's ever missed anything that's part of THE inspection often enough to justify a one second verification JUST BEFORE *COMMITTING* TO A LAUNCH.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=15239
Lift and Tug - identified my absent leg loop - thank you!

Norm Boessler - 2010/01/11 13:24:30 UTC
Armidale, New South Wales

I went for a fly at Mount Borah last Saturday and it turned out to be a PG comp weekend. No probs, I decided to help out with sniffing for thermals in front of the ridge for the pilots as the first thermal was proving hard to hook. Quite a few were bombing out. I decided to switch harnesses to the powered one so I could sit it out in front of the hill till thermals reappeared. Turned out to be a good move as I would have definitely have bombed out myself.

Anyway, I got in the harness and was sure that I had both legs in the loops but the mosquito A10 is a front entry and is difficult to sight what is being stepped into but I was sure that I had them both in. I did my hang check which confirmed (among other things) that the hang loop was the right length for that harness but did not give me any leg loop confirmation. It is very difficult to visually check but I REMEMBERED stepping into both loops so why should there be a problem??

So I started the motor and did final power checks - all normal and ready. This particular takeoff is a little tricky as it combines a powered launch with a sloped hill launch. Not really a good situation as it mixes two paradigms of launch. One which is committed from the first step and one which must have abort planning. I opted to use the entire run space by starting right at the back of the launch area so I could have some abort possibility if needed. The wind was light so I was not expecting an abrupt updraft at the ridge. It was also going to be a gradual power up and not a full power launch - just enough to get good airspeed and clean separation from the hill.

Wings balanced and level, all clear, lift the glider and a quick squat and BAM - only one leg loop pulls on my tackle. This asymmetric nad squishing was IMMEDIATELY detected followed by a mental switch which condemned the launch as I spat the throttle out and put down the A-Frame with the greatest of shock and relief simultaneously!!!

Thank you ORG* for giving me the 'lift and tug' final check immediately before launch.

Cheers, Norm.

*By which he means ME - not the smartass bastards who infest that dump and do their utmost to destroy any message beyond the scopes of their single digit IQs.

Yep

OF COURSE IT DOES!!! 'Cause in hang gliding:
- "weak link" and "hook knife" are other terms for the word "release"
- "pressure" means "tension"
- "pitch attitude" means "angle of attack"
- "half" means "twice" (as in "This release shall be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the weak link.)
- "just prior to launch" means whatever the fuck anybody wants it to!!!

Is this a great country or what!

takes all of 30 seconds

YA DIDN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION. THE QUESTION WAS:

---

IS THERE SOME REASON THIS (A PREFLIGHT INSPECTION) NEEDS TO BE DONE ON THE RAMP?

---

Shouldn't legendary pilots have their shit together enough to to have walked to the front of the glider, held the nose wires, made a half turn and inspected the stretched out harness lines, hang loop, and carabiner, and turned back around BEFORE GETTING ON THE RAMP.

If not, why stop there? Why not check the sidewires and make sure the leading edge / cross spar junction bolts are secured with locknuts and safety rings?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1167
The way it outa be

Steve Kinsley - 2005/10/04 14:04:25 UTC

One last attempt.

We have now rounded up all the usual suspects and promised renewed vigilance, nine page checklists, hang checks every six feet, etc. Bob Gillisse redux.

A hang check is part of preflighting your equipment. You do it in the setup area - not on the launch or the ramp. When you get in line you are hooked in and ready to go. No going down for a hang check cum hook-in check.

Yes, takes all of 30 seconds.

GREAT! How long does it take for something lethal to happen to glider or crewman on a ramp when a freak surge blasts through? From this neck of the woods I can recall ramp incidents in which a crewman left on a sidewire for a real quick out and return flight and one glider each interrupting his flying career, ending his flying career, and ending his life. And the latter three are/were good friends.

Ever been behind someone waiting for the silver platter fairy to deliver the perfect launch cycle?

Yeah. Four people like that ended up as Black Bear dung in the George Washington National Forest within a few miles of the Woodstock launch in the space of about a dozen years. Tends to motivate people to be a lot more ready to go when they get on the ramp.

I'll try again...

Why does a thirty second preflight inspection need to be done ON THE RAMP?

Twenty-five gliders, twenty miles per hour, McConnellsburg north ramp, four man crews. Everybody wastes thirty seconds on preflight on the ramp. Twelve and a half minutes of extra launch team exposure and fifty man-minutes down the tube for the crew.

I think we have a problem with semantics.

I think it's the "committing to" issue that you're having trouble understanding.

See, when your legendary pilot finishes dicking around with his preflight he's not "committing" or "committed" to ANYTHING. He can pick up his glider, take it back to the setup area, break it down, and put it back on the car.

When Bob Gillisse takes a step forward on the McConnellsburg ramp he's COMMITTED TO launch - even though about a step and a half later he, along with everyone else and his dog, realizes he's not connected to it.

That's why REAL (as opposed to legendary) pilots like Rob Kells and Steve Kinsley follow the rules instead of coming up with hundreds of idiot excuses not to.

LIFTING a glider up high on a turbulent launch is NOT a good idea.

Yet another tragic day at Packsaddle.

Martin had done his usual hang check at the back of the ramp and, for good measure, when on the ramp did a walk-through to check his leg loops, harness lines, hang strap, and carabiner. The air was pretty rough so he knelt down under the glider and idled away the next ten minutes zeroing his altimeter and talking on the radio to the pilots already aloft about conditions.

Then things settled down and straightened up a bit and he prepared to launch. He picked up the glider and held it down on his shoulders and was about to commit. But at that moment he suddenly remembered the bit of unpleasantness he had experienced at Hearne a year and a half prior and foolishly lifted his wing up an extra eight inches into THE TURBULENCE ZONE.

His glider immediately entered a climbing right turn, inverted, and slammed back into the slope at almost the exact point Danny's glider had only three months before. Five pilots interrupted the Hacky Sack game in which they had been engaged in the parking area and rushed to his aid. CPR was administered but unsuccessful.

OK everybody, LISTEN UP! The Turbulence Factor this afternoon is THREE! Remember to keep those gliders DOWN and ON YOUR SHOULDERS - especially you tall guys. No letting them up into the turbulence zone to check your connections. That's why we do hang checks in the setup area.

And don't EVEN ASK about crew. You know the rules - no crew on the ramp when the Turbulence Factor is over Two. Just too much risk.

Sorry everybody, bad news. The Turbulence Factor has ramped up to Five!!! Everybody over five foot four might as well start pulling battens. We just can't risk getting those wings up that close to the turbulence zone. And you little guys... You know the drill. Keep those gliders down tight on your shoulders.

And save your idiot arguments about the turbulence actually DECREASING the higher you get over the ramp. I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting that it's actually SAFER this way. Get real dudes!

Do they have instructors teaching this absolute horse shit or do you guys think it up all by yourselves?

rhetorical questions, not needing an answer.

There was only one question mark amongst those three sentences. And the question bloody well wasn't rhetorical. But lemme try it this way...

If you saw Rob Kells or Jeff Nicolay (yeah, we'd need a time machine for either of them) complying with USHGA regulations with respect to the launch sequence in there any possibility that you'd follow suit or would you still be spending all your time coming up with idiot imaginary reasons not to?

Don't remember. That was many many years ago.

Did you:
- get any ratings subsequent to 1981/05?
- ever read any of Doug Hildreth's failure to hook in fatality reports?

Your flames are a bit weak today.

Hope I'm getting back up to standards now.

[miguel]

Still working on the reply. Had to go buy a deluxe pair of waders and some heavy duty neoprene gloves.

[bobk]

Good luck with the waders and gloves.

Please let us know if they work.

[Tad Eareckson]

Great. Take all the time you want - the more the better.
Appreciate you staying in the conversation.

[miguel]

No offense intended or desired.

I attempted to go through line by line. It was taking way too long. Too many arcane disjointed points is putting it mildly.

Tad stated: A hang check is part of preflighting your equipment. You do it in the setup area - not on the launch or the ramp.

No problem with that statement. In a perfect world, you would preflight, then march directly to the launch and launch. That is how it is supposed to be.

Reality is quite different. Ever been in a setup area where story telling, joke telling, physical practical jokes, partially dressed men/women, and/or fighting are taking place? Think it might be possible to walk to launch unhooked? Ever hook in and remember you forgot something in the truck? How about a series of launch potatoes ahead of you in line and you overheat? Ever had to relieve yourself while waiting in line? There are many, many scenarios, where some minor distraction could cause a hooked-in-pilot to unhook, forget, and launch unhooked.

A quick check right before launching is part of my standard launch routine. Effective and it works for me. Is it fool proof? Nope, but it is a tad better than sashaying about like the mad hatter muttering, "I am not hooked in", over and over.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KVpJ7PhGn8w/SwMsiSO639I/AAAAAAAAD4o/RD2i88pPCW8/s1024/MadHatter.jpg


'round here, when you escort someone to launch, the common courtesy, is to ask them if they would like a hang check. You, as the helper are supposed to inspect the caribiner and harness rigging for the pilot. At another site, I watched one pilot escort another pilot to launch. No hang check was offered or asked for. The pilot launched unhooked. The pilot rolled down the hill unhurt and the glider made perfect passes along the ridge. The glider made a perfect wheel landing on the side of the ridge.

A pilot may also request a hang check when escorted to launch. This is considered good form around here.

Tad says, "GREAT! How long does it take for something lethal to happen to glider or crewman on a ramp when a freak surge blasts through? From this neck of the woods I can recall ramp incidents in which a crewman left on a sidewire for a real quick out and return flight and one glider each interrupting his flying career, ending his flying career, and ending his life. And the latter three are/were good friends."



Tad, "Freak winds" do not come out of nowhere. The prudent pilot would observe "The Wizard of Oz" tornado or any other anomaly and take appropriate protective action.

I believe that the turn around and inspect gives a pilot more information than a traditional hang check. Both done together is even better and does not take more than a minute. I will continue to use my method regardless of what you or U* have to say on this matter.

[Tad Eareckson]

No offense intended or desired.

As long as you've got something halfway intelligent and/or honest to say - I don't care. But thanks anyway.

Tad stated: A hang check is part of preflighting your equipment. You do it in the setup area - not on the launch or the ramp.

That was actually Steve Kinsley - who's probably my biggest hero in hang gliding - who stated that. I wish I had said it first but let's give credit where it's due.

No problem with that statement. In a perfect world, you would preflight, then march directly to the launch and launch.

In a perfect world if I were a really good robot with really good backup circuitry... Nah, I still wouldn't chance it.

Ever been in a setup area where story telling, joke telling, physical practical jokes, partially dressed men/women, and/or fighting are taking place?

Only the fighting, never any of the good stuff. Can you recommend some sites?

Think it might be possible to walk to launch unhooked?

At footlaunch sites that's the way I do things the vast majority of the time. So yeah.

Ever hook in and remember you forgot something in the truck?

Can't remember. So I should probably go with "Yes."

How about a series of launch potatoes ahead of you in line and you overheat?

Totally. Especially in the winter (which I eventually became smart enough to realize wasn't enough fun to justify doing it) when if you're dressed heavily enough to survive in the air for an hour, you're gonna be dead from heat stroke if you don't get off the ramp in a maximum of two minutes. (And even then you may be so dizzy you don't remember which way is up by the time you mumble something sounding vaguely like "Clear."

Ever had to relieve yourself while waiting in line?

When haven't I?

There are many, many scenarios, where some minor distraction could cause a hooked-in-pilot to unhook, forget, and launch unhooked.

Not if he adopts the mindset which is the title of this thread.

A quick check right before launching is part of my standard launch routine.

It's SUPPOSED TO BE everybody's.

Is it fool proof?

IF you've done an adequate preflight it's close enough that I'd say yeah.

Nope, but it is a tad better than sashaying about like the mad hatter muttering, "I am not hooked in", over and over.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15337
unhooked take off clip

George Stebbins - 2010/02/16 21:36:38 UTC

The key point that Tad is trying to make in his annoyingly prolific and pedantic fashion is the assumption made. Always assume you aren't hooked in except immediately after you've checked it. After a few seconds, you have to assume you aren't hooked in again. If you know you are, you are at risk. I've been known to mutter under my breath as I walk to launch: "I am not hooked in, I am not hooked in." Hey, it can't hurt! (And I've been caught doing it louder than under my breath a time or two...)

He's not saying to get rid of your other methods. Just to add this one and change your assumption that you are hooked in. (As annoying and strained as the gun analogies were, I think they might be apt.)

- I'm not sure I've ever seen George sashaying anywhere - at least not when he's underneath a glider.
- And - until he starts talking about towing - he's not a lunatic.

'round here, when you escort someone to launch, the common courtesy, is to ask them if they would like a hang check.

I don't ask, offer, or accept help with a hang check. There are better ways we can use our time and energy - like looking at the person on the ramp five seconds before launch to see if he's hooked in. (I will, however, hold the glider's nose (and mine) if someone makes the request.)

You, as the helper are supposed to inspect the caribiner and harness rigging for the pilot.

I can do that for myself with a walk-through, thank you very much. Cut out the middleman. I remember getting screwed over by a couple of Hang Four middlemen on 1986/08/01 when I was doing a hang check, felt something wrong, and was reassured that I was mistaken.

It NEVER hurts to have extra pairs of alert eyes on things but it's a BAD idea to rely on them.

At another site...

And how many times before - or afterwards - did the "pilot" demonstrate a method of establishing that he was hooked in just prior to launch?

No hang check was offered or asked for.

No hang check is asked for anywhere in the USHGA Pilot Proficiency Program.

I watched one pilot escort another pilot to launch.

What were you watching just prior to launch and why?

]A pilot may also request a hang check when escorted to launch. This is considered good form around here.

Around there is it considered good form to insist that with each flight the pilot demonstrates a method of establishing that he is hooked in just prior to launch? (Yeah, that's a rhetorical question - but I'd like it answered anyway.)

]Tad, "Freak winds" do not come out of nowhere.

-

Hang Gliding on Chelan Butte
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FDJTApk5Hw
tamingthekat - 2010/07/06
dead
02-00007

04-00111

10-00518

20-00727

28-00828

47-01225

54-01511

76-03721


-

http://http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21868
Don't Forget your Hang Check!

Eric Hinrichs - 2011/05/13 21:31:06 UTC

I went to Chelan for the Nationals in '95 as a free flyer. They were requiring everyone to use the Australian method, and you were also not allowed to carry a glider without being hooked in.

This was different for me, I hook in and do a full hang check just behind launch right before I go. I was also taught to do a hooked in check right before starting my run, lifting or letting the wind lift the glider to feel the tug of the leg loops.

So I used their method and I'm hooked in, carrying my glider to launch and someone yells "Dust devil!" Everyone around runs for their gliders (most of which are tied down) and I'm left standing alone in the middle of the butte with a huge monster wandering around. I heard later that it was well over three hundred feet tall, and some saw lightning at the top. After that it was clear that no one is going to decide for me or deride me for my own safety methods, someone else's could have easily got me killed.

- I've had my own glider hit at least twice I can remember once in the Woodstock (Virginia) LZ, another in the Ridgely staging area - fortunately both while I was there and fortunately both manageable.

The prudent pilot would observe "The Wizard of Oz" tornado or any other anomaly and take appropriate protective action.

Wouldn't a prudent pilot do everything he could to minimize the exposure time - for himself and his crew - on the ramp? Would a prudent pilot show up on launch with his instruments still in the bags and his radio not set to frequency?

I believe that the turn around and inspect gives a pilot more information than a traditional hang check.

This is not just a vague, undefinable belief.

Both done together is even better and does not take more than a minute.

- Assuming your glider/harness combo is the same as it was last weekend, what does the hang check tell you that the walk-through doesn't?

- Do either of those need to be done on the ramp?

- I'm not hearing anything about what I consider the BEST pair - which is a walk-through behind or, in appropriate circumstances, ON the ramp with a lift and tug JUST BEFORE COMMITTING TO LAUNCH.

- The "traditional hang check" check is like the traditional backup strap - they don't conform to any regulations, we don't use them for rational reasons, and they make flying more dangerous.

I will continue to use my method regardless of what you or U* have to say on this matter.

I DESPISE USHGA. But when they say:

Must have at least one thirty minute flight in thermal lift without sustaining ridge lift.

I'm not gonna core sink every time I start getting close just to spite them.

Cool pictures. But, with respect to the first one anyway, break us in a little more gradually next time. There are probably more people than just yours truly still spinning from the sensory overload shock. Not used to seeing that many new vibrant colors all at once on this forum.

Thanks for posting. Worth the wait. (Especially the pictures.)

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24691
Landing on wheels

Al Hernandez - 2011/08/09 18:50:24 UTC

Didn't someone on this forum break both his legs doing a stand up landing?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/09 19:13:18 UTC

No Al.
Aside from being in poor taste, that's not what happened, and no, wheels would have made no difference.
That was an entirely different accident.
Let's not go down the personal road please.

Thanks
Jim

- He actually WAS sorta doing a standup landing - 'cept without his glider.
- Yeah, wheels would have made all the difference in the world - IF he had elected to take off using some.

[bobk]

LIFTING a glider up high on a turbulent launch is NOT a good idea.

This is what Tad doesn't seem to get. He doesn't seem to understand that any lifting of the pilot's body reduces the pilot's ability to control the glider on the ground. In conditions with plenty of safety margin that's not a problem. But in difficult conditions he's risking a big problem to solve something that could be more safely and easily solved with the kind of hook in check that most of us do.

By the way, one of the primary methods of controlling a glider on launch is to yaw the glider to control its exposure to the wind. Yawing requires torque, and the only thing you can use to torque a glider is the frictional force of your feet on the ground. Frictional forces are typically defined as the product of the coefficient of friction (a property of the surfaces) times the normal force (the force of your feet on the ground). As the glider begins to lift you, you lose some of that normal force and you proportionally lose your ability to apply torque to the glider. If you combine this with the rapidly increasing forces as you elevate the glider into the wind, you're creating a situation where it's much more likely for the glider to get out of control.

Now I know there are excellent pilots with such highly refined instincts and reactions, that this is not a problem. But that's not the vast majority of weekend pilots who just want to get safely off the hill. For them (and that includes me), it's much better to reduce the failure modes at launch by doing the hook in check with the safety of a crew holding the glider than it is to try to do two things at once (checking and launching). Checking is checking, and launching is launching. I don't want to contaminate my launch technique by trying to sneak in one last hook in check. In the best case that can do nothing to degrade my launch, but in the worst case ... it might be the difference between life and death.

[Steve Davy]

Bob, you're full of shit. Go learn how to launch with a tight hang strap!

[bobk]

Bob you'r full of shit. Go learn how to launch with a tight hang strap!

Actually, I always launch with a tight hang strap. That's when the glider lifts me off the hill.

But I don't tempt fate by sticking my glider up into the wind (without a wire crew!!) just to see if my leg straps are tight. I've got better and safer ways to do that.