You are NEVER hooked in.

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9149
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3UbztgTtsc
I Launched Without Buckling into my Harness - a hang gliding film by Greg Porter
Greg Porter - 2013/10/02

Hey...

So this video's primarily for hang glider pilots.
Pretty small audience. Maybe expand it to people who fly hang gliders. In my humble opinion anyone who might benefit from a presentation like this isn't an actual pilot and would have precious little hope of ever becoming one.
I made a mistake during a launch...
Your mistakes were made way before and immediately prior to the launch. The launch itself went off pretty well.
...and I wanna share it with you in hopes that you won't make the same.
Oh good. FINALLY we'll have somebody address the issue of unsecured harness buckles.

And here's your core problem. You're presenting this as though you're the first and only individual to have ever experienced a hooked-into-glider-but-not-secured-into-harness incident and that this incident was a hitherto unknown phenomenon. If you'd either had competent instruction, done your homework, or engaged your brain for five or ten seconds that you'd have known otherwise and very probably not assumed that a stupid hang check which felt 100.00 percent normal and solid was telling you NOTHING about the status of your leg loops and chest buckle.

Pity you didn't skip the stupid hang check and spend the time and effort it ate up thinking about worst case scenarios with respect to assembly and preflight. Ditto for the conspicuously unidentified asshole you had to recruit to hold your nose.
What I did was I launched with my harness hooked to the glider, but I was not buckled into the harness.
A new first in hang gliding. Sounds like such an astoundingly rare event that it probably isn't worth a tiny fraction of the effort you've put into this project.
I'll show you the launch, I'll show you the terrible landing that I had as a result...
You had a terrible landing - but it didn't have shit to do with the unbuckled harness issues. And please do tell us why your ilk would consider it insane to fly without a parachute and/or helmet but perfectly OK to run off a ramp minus wheels. What are the chances on any given flight that your safety will be dependent upon your parachute or helmet? Can't think of anyone vegged, quaded, killed for want of wheels in not unreasonable landing situations?
I was very fortunate that it didn't turn out much worse.
The way it did for Kunio from the north launch 2008/08/30? Don't wanna even acknowledge his previous existence in this one? Why? Doesn't reflect real well on the local crowd?

And speaking of Kunio... You launch sans buckled buckles and suffer zero direct consequences beyond a short flight on what would've been a great thermal soaring day and put tons of thought and effort developing and documenting your best shot at a fix. Kunio falls out of his glider to his death in full view of a horrified fly-in crowd and his wife and kids and the response is total ZILCH.

And thanks bigtime for the excellent documentation that not an iota of positive response had been effected 'cause if there had been your issues would've been caught by your wire man - a good friend and an excellent pilot whom you're not showing 'cause this was 100% your issue. Yeah, we have this great community of good friends and excellent pilots none of whom are competent and give flying fucks enough to catch these issues on any gliders other than their own most of the time.

A good friend and an excellent pilot? He's neither. Didn't catch the issues, identify himself, apologize for not catching the issues. Was he also one of the two hangies on Kunio's final crew? Certainly could be. Identical performance at launch and post incident.

There's a DEFINITE pattern here. After a fatality or severe career ender there's NEVER a discussion about what was done wrong or could've been done better by the local or national community or organization. 'Cause if anything smacking of a legitimate fix emerges it's an admission that the organization COULD HAVE prevented it and DIDN'T 'cause it was incompetent and/or negligent. That's why at 2015/03/27 Jean Lake everything that was used and done was TYPICAL of how things are used and done and the fixes were all about using and doing things more and better typically.

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I think what the problem was, was I had a false sense of security.
1. Oh, you're a lift and tug guy then. Get with Tom Galvin and Joe Greblo - they'll set you straight.

2. You THINK that you had a false sense of security and that was the problem? Can you get back to us when you're sure or have dismissed it as an issue?
I felt like if I hooked my harness into the glider without fail, before I ever got into the harness, that I'd never launch unhooked.
1. What did your ace u$hPa certified Instructors and ratings officials have to say on the issue and who were they? How come everyone has to come up with his individual feelings on the best way to deal with the single most critical issue of foot launch hang gliding? And when we watch videos of your non problematic flights what are we seeing that you owe to your instructors?

In my case it's precious bloody little. Just about all the success I achieved in this flavor of aviation came from discarding all the total rot with which those douchebags attempted to indoctrinate me.

2. Almost at the beginning of my career - as a new Two in 1980 - I felt like no matter what I did this was I mistake I WOULD make, that if I continued in the sport I'd be dead as a result of this one inside of two years. I'd read the fatality reports and think, "Yeah, I can see myself EASILY making the same mistake in the same run-of-the-mill launch circumstances." And my shit formal instruction was primarily geared toward pulling off spot landings with perfectly timed and executed flares 'cause that would be all I'd have going for me after my staying-in-range-of-reasonable-landing-fields skills failed me.

3. So it would just be totally moronic to make any pretense of adhering to u$hPa's third of a century old hook-in check SOP. Even more moronic to start adhering to it.

4. Known since the beginning of time as the "Aussie Method". And the reason you're not identifying it as such is...? Afraid of pissing off some of your Aussie Methodist douchebag buddies?

5. Yeah, Mike Bomstad also felt like if he hooked his harness into the glider without fail, before he ever got into the harness, that he'd never launch unhooked.

- And here he is on 2012/07/06 finding out that he'd failed to hook his harness into his glider before getting into the harness in the course of an unintentional hook-in check forced by the launch mode:

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- And here he is on 2013/08/18 - a bit over a year later and about 90.5 miles to the ENE - once again finding out that he'd failed to hook his harness into his glider before getting into the harness in the course of another unintentional hook-in check which occurred due to an extremely fortunate accident of circumstances:

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The concept tended not to work out all that well for him back in the real world either. The first one was a nonevent 'cause the unhooked launch is an actual issue only for foot launchers. The second one could EASILY have been fatal - as WonderBoy well knows and so states in the video. Launch terrain is an escarpment and was pretty much exactly the same degree of lethal as what Kunio was dealing with at Mingus North.
And so that's what I did on this launch as I always did. So when I started to buckle myself in...
You STARTED to buckle yourself in? But you ended up not buckling yourself in at all? And it's not worth the bandwidth to tell us anything about the interruption? Cougar attack?

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She was just bluffing. Don't let yourself get rattled by shit like that.
...that's where my process fell down.
"YOUR" process sucked to begin with. How much documentation of its failures had to exist in order for you to take any notice?
I was preoccupied with things that had happened during preflight...
You're speaking of the preflight in past tense. You never came particularly close to finishing it. The hang glider parts company with conventional fixed wing aircraft in that the harnessed and connected guy is the control system - along with being the pilot. That's the main point (I just noticed) at which this:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13359
Today was a bad day!
Mike Bomstad - 2009/08/26 04:21:15 UTC

The harness is part of the aircraft... end of story.
(Just because it's easy to remove, does not mean it should be. Dont choose the path of least resistance)

Attach it to the wing, completing the aircraft.... then preflight the completed aircraft.
Buckle yourself into the cockpit and then your ready.
bullshit seriously breaks down. It's not just the harness that's part of the aircraft. The harness isn't just the empty cockpit. it's also part of the control linkage back to the wing and it needs a couple hundred pounds of mass, muscle, and brains inside of it and two links to the control bar for things to start functioning properly.

A conventional fixed wing aircraft could execute a launch, XC flight, and landing with just a small computer onboard or somebody talking to it from the ground. Get back to me when you see that happening with a full scale hang glider.

So the aircraft isn't and the preflight can't be successfully completed until after the pilot's properly and securely buckled into the harness. You preflight everything you can while not connected to the wing then you get your assembly in launch configuration and preflight check any remaining issues: connection to hang strap, twists, misroutings, leg loops, buckles, parachute pins, helmet, vario, radio. (Better to hook the empty harness in first if circumstances permit but it doesn't matter all that damn much. You're gonna assume it's not hooked in either way.)

And buckling yourself into the cockpit of the conventional aircraft cockpit is NOT the same as buckling yourself into your hang glider harness in another dimension. If you fail to buckle yourself into the cockpit there's close to ZERO chance you'll have a significant problem within the first five minutes - assuming you don't do anything else really stupid. If you fail to safely buckle yourself into the harness you can easily find yourself dead within five or ten seconds of a foot launch.

Also... After buckling yourself into the cockpit you can't suddenly realize you left your iPhone back in the hangar, retrieve it, get distracted by an important incoming call, take off not realizing that you didn't rebuckle, fall out of the plane from halfway down and fifty feet over the runway and die.

The bad news is you can EASILY do that at Mingus. The good news is that a hook-in check is a procedure with essentially ZERO cost in time and effort and WILL eliminate the problem. But...
A lot of pilots will...
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...pick up the glider, until they feel the tension on their, leg loops, to be sure those leg loops are attached.
...you motherfuckers REFUSE to do them. At the same ramp nine months plus a day after your serious incident launch...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3n8Bze0900


ZILCH.
...and so I didn't think through the steps.
EVERYBODY gets preoccupied with things that happen during preflight once in a while and fuck thinking through your stupid steps. All we gotta think about is what might happen when we run off this escarpment two seconds from now if we're not properly secured to our glider. Think 2008/08/30 Kunio Yoshimura if nothing significant is coming to you. That should be a total no-brainer at this launch.

And while a lot of pilots will...

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...pick up the glider until they feel the tension on their leg loops to be sure those leg loops are attached - AND THEY'RE HOOKED IN - I'm not one of those pilots. Those pilots are all fags.
And I didn't buckle myself into the harness.
Or preflight or do any semblance of a hook-in check. And your wire man - whom you're not showing despite the fact that he's a good friend and an excellent pilot - was 100% on board with this 'cause this was 100% your issue. And if either of you assholes wires anybody else off that launch - unhooked, partially hooked, minus a buckle or two - it will again be 100% his issue. Also the problem of the pilots still on launch and down in the LZ, the Cottonwood emergency response people, wife, kids, parents, work colleagues...
I even did a hang check.
Wow.
And I didn't catch it in the hang check.
But your bar clearance didn't need adjustment this time so what the hell.
So I'll show you how that happened.
No you won't. You'll show us WHAT happened but not how and why.

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This is the correct configuration the harness should be in when I go to launch...
Doesn't matter all that much what your configuration is when you GO TO launch. Talk to the Glacier Point and Makapu'u guys if you don't believe me.
I have my leg loops around me, I have my leg loop buckle is secured, under this zipper I have a chest buckle that's secured. And then I'm zipped down.

Now when I went to launch I had forgotten to do my leg loops and I had forgotten to do my chest buckle.
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So all I did was I attached this zipper... 'cause I was preoccupied and I zipped it down...
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...and I felt secure - totally secure.
Just like everyone who's ever fallen to his death from a glider has always in the seconds and frequently in the minutes prior to launch has. That's how come I NEVER feel secure until comfortably after the point at which there'd be anything I could do about anything. But you've just developed this really cool checklist system so you can go back to feeling secure, totally secure again well prior to and through launch.
When I went to launch all of a sudden my weight - of course the harness is hooked to the glider - my weight fell to my armpits here... and when that happened, this zipper opened up to there...
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...after launch.
Guess you were feeling substantially insecure at that point.
I did a hang check in this configuration... And so I thought I was OK.

Lemme show you that hang check.
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Has there ever been anything in the u$hPa SOPs about a hang check?
So... There was the hang check. And I know now that it felt OK to me because my zipper was done which supported my chest weight and when I push with my feet against the boot of the harness it raised my hips off the ground. And so I couldn't tell that my leg loops were unattached.
And just how likely do you think you'd be to ever repeat a mistake like that? But you're gonna need to develop a checklist system choked with a score of chickenshit items to deal with it?

You're not the first individual to make this type of error and the vast majority of them survive just as you did. Ever hear of anyone:
- making it twice?
- preventing a rerun as a consequence of having developed a checklist?

If I'd screwed a pooch like this and felt I'd needed to develop a checklist to deal with the issue, that the experience itself hadn't been enough to get my brain successfully and permanently rewired, then I'd seriously question whether hang gliding were really an appropriate hobby for me. Probably also driving a car on a highway on which I might encounter other vehicles.
A lot of pilots will...
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...pick up the glider, until they feel the tension on their, leg loops, to be sure those leg loops are attached.
That's just plain loony. Why do something like that when you can produce a high tech checklist that stows in your nosecone and write a procedures manual for its proper use? Is picking up the glider until you feel the tension on your loops to be sure those leg loops are attached gonna tell you whether or not your helmet's chin strap is buckled? I lost count of the times I did hook-in checks only to notice my chin strap fluttering in the breeze thirty seconds after launch.
I'll show you...
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...after the video of the flight what I'm doing different to make sure this doesn't happen. But for now let's go take a look at the flight. It was pretty scary. Here you go.
Stay tuned.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9149
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3UbztgTtsc
I Launched Without Buckling into my Harness - a hang gliding film by Greg Porter
Greg Porter - 2013/10/02
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I think that plaque needs to be redone in international orange. Maybe do fifteen or twenty of them to use as stepping stones for the approach walkway.
My wife looks on as I start my run
Not showing my wire man, a good friend and an excellent pilot - this was 100% my issue.
So then why aren't you showing or naming him? And if this was so obviously 100% your issue then how come he's never come forward, identified himself, commented on the event? Good friends and excellent pilots in this sport only give flying fucks about themselves?

The most honest and responsible responders from launch post Bill Priday and Kunio Yoshimura were Scott...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1152
Bill Priday's death
Scott Wilkinson - 2005/10/02 01:58:29 UTC

I'm still asking, asking, asking, over and over, asking myself and others...how could we all be looking right at Bill---watching his every move, and not even notice there were no harness mains attached to his keel? How can our eyes be so useless? There were 5-6 people (maybe more) at launch with Bill. He had a wire crew. I'm blaming nobody and everybody, myself included.
...Wilkinson and Randy...

http://ahga.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2860
Randy SkyWalker - 2008/09/02 17:12
Phoenix

FALLEN FEATHER

I was not fortunate enough to know Kunio as long as many who surrounded him during his life. However I was blessed to have spent the whole day with him August 30th and develop a bond that kept us close enough to be the last one to speak to him and hear his voice.

The movie that has played a million times in my mind and continues to roll is a guilt ridden series of avoidable and senseless errors.
SkyWalker.

They feel guilt. They gotta live with the horror of knowing that if they had just looked at or moved into position to see the suspension they could've easily and totally defused both of these situations. And I don't think people who've been in these situations at launch last very long in the sport afterwards.

Identities of crew and nearby observers of...

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...unhooked launches - at least when the consequences are serious - are some of the best kept secrets in the Industry.

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Note between the above and following frame - in the space of 0.433 seconds - the degree to which the wing has lifted. He knew he had a problem before he got to the end of the ramp. More runway and/or headwind and he could've aborted.

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Too late now.

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For a second I thought I should kneel on the base tube, but then decided I should stand in the boot.
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What prevented you from thinking that you could've climbed into the control frame and stood on the control bar - the way Kunio was trying to do and Mark Johnson thought and reported that he had?

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I feel the zipper has moved up, but maintaining glider control is #1
Rubbish. You have the situation reasonably well under control and stable. You have some breathing room and can afford to relinquish a moderate degree of control.

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Now trying for the lower zipper, but this is Mingus... pretty turbulent.
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1. So now you have the boot zipper. And if the thought of monkey barring ever occurred to you then you've abandoned it at this point. (Granted, the thought of monkey barring at altitude is kinda scary - until you actually do it. Wouldn't be a bad idea to make it mandatory for a Three rating. And it would sure beat the crap outta those stupid lethal consecutive spot landings.)

2. "Pretty turbulent" in these conditions means great thermal lift. That's a good thing.

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I am worried the zippers will split
You wouldn't have to be if you were monkey barring.

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With no leg loops I'll have to land zipped up...
If you had had wheels you wouldn't have had to. But worry not - the important thing is that your suspension is backed up. (Even though you're not safely secured into the system lower down.)
Have a decision to make:
Hope the consequences are a lot more positive than the ones for some of the decisions you made prior to initiating on the ramp.
I now need to land in the BIG LZ...
Why? You're gonna crash to an abrupt halt after overshooting a fifty foot diameter target circle by under ten feet. What are we using for the "LITTLE LZ" and how many pilots did we kill there last weekend? It's a Three and over site and all u$hPa Threes can average a fifty foot or under radius for three consecutive stunt landings.
...and I am too low to reach it.
And you're a Four. We used to required to do three consecutive 25 foot radius stunt landings but I see they eventually dropped that bullshit. Figured their efforts would be better spent establishing a safe overshoot zone upwind of the Kagel strip.
Do I go back and hope for a thermal? What would you do?
Where to fuckin' begin...

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I notice the sun warming that low ridge...
Yes !!
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How high to go?
And here I was thinking that your control authority had been substantially compromised. Please tell us what you're no longer able to execute in this configuration.
I fear my zipper could split at any time.
You wouldn't if you were monkey barring. If your (chest) zipper splits you're not gonna fall out of your harness. It'll just be a little less secure and a lot less comfortable. So why not bail, stand in the control frame, prevent any possibility of further harness damage, put yourself in good position to safely stop your top- and wheel-less bladewing?
Decisions, decisions...
Many best made and executed prior to launch. More and better options in the long run that way.

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High enough! Even if I hit major sink on the way out...
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...I still don't have any landing gear. Got my flare timing perfected back when I was getting my Two so what would've been the point?

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My full weight in the boot has torn the harness internally, so I can't make it go prone...
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I don't want to anyway... My proned weight would stress the zipper more...
And what a waste of a totally awesome flying day that you're never gonna get back. But...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.
What the hell.

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<-- 10th St LZ
Gawd. Microscopic. Hope you'll be able to manage adequately with your substantially compromised control authority. And make sure to get your hands up at shoulder or ear height to maximize what you have and ensure that you can execute a nice crisp landing flare. Maybe go to a clinic with one of the Voight twins, Jim Rooney, Mitch Shipley after this one.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9149
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3UbztgTtsc
I Launched Without Buckling into my Harness - a hang gliding film by Greg Porter
Greg Porter - 2013/10/02
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<- Launch
And - speaking of launch - do you really think that after this one you're gonna need a checklist to make sure you have your chest and leg buckles by the time you've made it to launch position?

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I find that I cannot finely control the glider from this weird position...
Yeah? The designer of your beautiful bladewing tells us that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
...he can't safely control that bird AT ALL with his hands at the positions to which you're gonna move them for what - since right after launch - will be the most critical and dangerous point of the flight. It's also gonna prove to be the most expensive.

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x
Yeah, we can even see the target circle with the wide angle at this altitude. Right about 34°44'51.16" N 112°01'11.93" W. And with this final running to the ESE we're not gonna eat up much more than 220 yards of runway before centering it. I don't even wanna try to imagine the horror we'd be experiencing trying to make it into the Plan A.

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Yep, hands at shoulder height. Things are about to get critical and we want to be able to control our glider as finely as possible.

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Good idea. Move them up to ear height for even finer control authority.

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Ready now... Flare timing is everything. Your entire hang gliding career has been spent preparing for this very moment.

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And he NAILS IT!

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And then he starts pulling back in 'cause the feeling of having nailed it isn't quite as assuring as one might think.

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Horizon badly rolled to starboard, port tip’s in the dirt.

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And there goes a four hundred dollar carbon basetube for zero good reason. But let's blame everything on the missed buckle issues from half an hour ago.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9149
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3UbztgTtsc
I Launched Without Buckling into my Harness - a hang gliding film by Greg Porter
Greg Porter - 2013/10/02
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Hey that was scary, huh?
1. Compared to the fatal horror show from that launch five years prior witnessed by scores and reported to thousands that you acknowledge neither in this video nor the Jack Show discussion? Doesn't hold a candle.

2. No. I'm not afraid of ever making that mistake 'cause every time I foot launch I assume I'm about to.

3. What? The launch which was pretty problematic but never came very close to substantially compromising your safety? Or the totally botched stunt landing which resulted in a violent impact and substantial glider damage?

THIS:

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is supposed to be horrifying but we're totally OK with:

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'cause that's just pretty routine glider LZ activity?
So ya know I heard that the definition of insanity is continue to do the same thing and to expect different results.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You run your procedure probably a thousand times without incident. Then you botch your procedure ONCE and STILL have zilch in the way of related consequences. If you could bottle that and sell it you could eliminate a lot of death and destruction from this sport.
So I decided to make a change.
Yeah. Keep doing the same thing over and over but throw a checklist into the equation. No pilot who's read through a checklist before moving out onto a runway has ever had a serious oversight related problem. And obviously (from your "Preflight Checklist")...
Towing
- Wheels
- Harness
-- Bridle attached
-- Weak link on right (release left)
-- Weak Link check/replace
...the only possible use we could have for landing gear is for tow launches when the focal point of our safe towing system unexpectedly increases the safety of the towing operation. (See 086-73904 - 092-73928 - 094-74000 above.)
And so now I've incorporated a formal checklist system when I fly.
'Cause I've just proven to myself that I'm capable of launching without buckling myself into my harness. And every time a pilot makes that mistake he renders himself 2.5 times as likely to make the same mistake within the following twelve month period.
There's a lot of them out there.
Great. So we should be hearing scores of reports from people who were about to launch with unlocked carabiners praising their checklist systems for last moment saves.
This is the one I'm using, I wanna thank Dan Schroeder for it - one of our local hang glider pilots here in Arizona.
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Haven't heard Dan Schroeder's name associated with any plummeting-from-glider-shortly-after-launch incidents... Must work pretty good.
So it's a two checklist system, here's a preflight checklist - and I'll give you a copy of both of these at the end of the video, just for your reference...
Not seeing anything about:

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Page 21 from your Wills Wing T2C owner's manual. Did you preflight your preflight checklist before printing it out and laminating it? Or did you just decide that the Wills Wing guys had no fuckin' clue what they were talking about?

Yeah, screw that. You'd be taking a major risk of accidentally grinding a wire into one of the numerous sharp rocks strewn around the Mingus launch area.

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And besides... What's the worst that could happen as long as you make sure your helmet's chin strap is buckled.
So once I'm done with preflighting...
...the stuff from the fuckin' manual I feel is legitimate...
...and I get in my harness then this is the FINAL checklist, the one I go through just before I walk up on the ramp to launch.
Sorry, my memory isn't anywhere near as good as yours is. I try to remember anything that happened prior to two seconds ago it's garbage. Sometimes can remember some of what I did before walking up on the ramp but I'm never really sure whether or not I unhooked to run back for the gloves I left lying on the stump in the setup area.

I used to ask people crewing for me whether or not that had been the case but that mostly resulted in a lot of funny looks and no small measure of verbal abuse. So now I just assume that I'd done something like that and adjust my procedures accordingly.

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I can reach it while I'm hooked in
What about while not hooked in? I always assume that I'm not and am wondering if that would present any problems with your system.

And then there are other situations in which you really don't WANNA be hooked in while you're dicking around with preflight issues. Think Glacier Point, Makapu'u, Craig Pirazzi...

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And I read through this checklist, make sure I'm good to go...
I'm never sure I'm good to go. I just keep worrying and thinking about all the possible mistakes and oversights I might have committed then give it my best shot, hope I haven't missed anything. It's kinda like playing Russian roulette with a revolver you've been able to check thoroughly and at your leisure.
I roll it up, I slide it up here in the nosecone... It has a piece of velcro on it, and there's also a velcro on the backside of the nose cone, and there's a catch there, I'm aerodynamic, and it's secure...
1. And obviously so are you. Totally good to go. Now if only that asshole up on the ramp could find a cycle that meets with his approval within the next half hour...

2. And it's one more thing ya gotta fuck with as you're prepping to launch. And do ya really need stuff like "Sunglasses and Gloves" cluttering it up? Has anybody ever learned the hard way that he just launched minus his sunglasses and/or gloves? If your vario's not on and your altimeter's not set can't you take care of those issues pretty easily in flight? And if you can't then do you have a serious safety compromise? Is this thing actually doing any good or is it just an unnecessary complication and distraction? Could the time you're spending focusing on stowing your checklist in the nosecone be put to better use thinking about other issues involved in your launch?

Or maybe looking at the glider ahead of you to make sure his carabiner isn't clipped back into his harness under one of his arms? The way both Bill Priday's and Kunio Yoshimura's were? Nah, best look out for Number One. Sure wouldn't wanna launch with your vario off and altimeter not set.

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Once I'm done flying and I go to break down... Peel the nose cone off... And this checklist is permanently attached to the glider so it's there for the next flight.
Super Greg. I used to use an extensive checklist for setup area stuff but it was just to help me stay organized and operate efficiently while getting prepped. And it got folded up and went back in my wallet before I advanced to staging. But from then on fuckit.

Anybody beyond maybe a new supervised Two needs to have the ability to hit the pause button while waiting to get up on the ramp and run a mental checklist - while constantly thinking about worst case scenarios and checks to protect against them. After safe and proper connection to the glider and into the harness sidewire failure is your biggie. And if you've decided you're not gonna load test as part of your preflight procedure then you're wasting your time with just about everything else.
I hope you found the video to be helpful...
Will ya settle for interesting?
I think for me the main point is don't assume that just because your harness is hooked into the glider that you are properly buckled into the harness.
Thanks Greg. But I didn't need to experience a failure or watch a failure video to have that point properly sink in. And I never had the slightest need of a printed checklist to avoid a failure.
You saw my hang check. And it looked like I was good to go.
You were - as far as the purview of the hang check was concerned anyway. Your bar clearance was spot on. If it had been an AT flight and you'd stayed prone and wheel landed you'd have never known you had a problem before exiting the harness. But bar clearance is the ONLY useful information provided from a hang check and it's totally moronic to do them if you're flying the same glider/harness combo you were last weekend.

The hang check isn't the cure for plummet-from-glider incidents. It's the primary cause of them. People do them, think they've done them, won't bother to do them 'cause they're a pain in the ass and they know they're hooked in anyway, are sure that the guys for whom they're crewing have done them 'cause everybody always does back in the staging area - and everybody's good to go and a hook-in check gives one a false sense of security.
So I hope that you have safe flying...
You're flying was all safe enough. It was your totally unrelated wheel-less stunt landing effort that resulted in the substantial violence and carnage.
I will see you again, maybe on the next mistake that I make.
This video WAS your next mistake.
Until then... fly safe, see ya soon. See ya.
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Don't let this, or worse, happen to you...
Thanks Greg, but if I think I'll need a checklist to prevent a situation like that I shouldn't be flying anyway. Maybe do another video showing us how your checklist system saved you from launching with your altimeter still set for last Saturday's high pressure system.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9149
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Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Tipped off by a 2021/05/08 21:11:08 UTC email message from Jonathan (thanks hugely):
http://www.trevisotoday.it/cronaca/morto-deltaplano-borso-grappa-oggi-8-maggio-2021.html
Si schiantano con il deltaplano: morto un uomo, illesa invece la compagna

Been working a lot recently on not safely / at all connected to glider launches and wondering when we were gonna get our next fatal. No shortage of incidents, pretty much all minus serious injury, but I think our last fatal was all the way back to 2012/04/28, Jon Orders / Lenami Godinez-Avila, Mount Woodside - a wee bit over nine years ago.

From the translation on this one...

2021/05/08 12:30 UTC, Borso del Grappa, Col del Puppolo, 850 meters MSL, mountain ramp, tandem thrill ride. Driver - Federico Baratto, 52, not connected, dangles for a short bit, thousand foot fall. Unidentified female passenger stays with glider, goes down in trees, extracted smelling like a rose.

Compare/Contrast:
- 2003/03/29 - Coronet Peak - Steve Parson / Eleni Zeri
- 2007/05/26 - São Conrado - Eduardo Nascimento Coelho / Kenny Reyee
- 2006/02/21 - Coronet Peak - Jim Rooney / Female Victim One
- 2012/04/28 - Mount Woodside - Jon Orders / Lenami Godinez-Avila
- 2018/00/00 - Interlaken - Chris Gursky

2007/05/26 is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwbPK7sCCtk
22°59'17.72" S 043°16'43.81" W
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Generalizations...
- The individual hooked in comes through in pretty good shape, the one not dies.
- Nobody ever thinks about a parachute if he separates within three seconds of launch.

Translated stuff from the new one...
Chronicle / Borso del Grappa

It does not tie up with the hang glider and crashes after take off: a 52-year-old died

The accident occurred on Saturday afternoon in Borso del Grappa, shortly after takeoff on Col del Puppolo in Borso del Grappa. Federico Baratto died, the companion who was with him unharmed.

After they crash with the hang glider: a man died, his partner unharmed

Having secured the flight companion, he did not tie himself up and, immediately after take off, remained hanging from the bar, falling into space after a surge of the two-seater hang glider. Thus the 52-year-old from Padua, Federico Baratto (hang gliding pilot and instructor) lost his life, falling for over 300 meters into the void. As soon as the takeoff took place from the Col del Puppolo delta platform at 850 meters MSL in Borso del Grappa, the dramatic situation was immediately clear. With the man untied, hooked by the strength of his arms until he was no longer able, he let go and disappeared into the woods below. The hang glider continued without commands and then fell among the trees, leaving the woman suspended in the void among the branches, fortunately without consequences for her.

When the alarm went off at about 14:30, the Treviso emergency helicopter identified the sail and landed with a 30-meter winch, doctor, nurse and helicopter rescue technician, and then flew to board a team of the Alpine Rescue of the Pedemontana del Grappa to start the search for the pilot. The helicopter rescue technician climbed up the tree and, after having secured her and freed her from the constraints, lowered the woman to the ground, to entrust her to a station nurse. The rescuers, who were then joined by other teams, set off with the difficult and demanding patrol of the area. With the support of a video of the last moments, the teams circumscribed the area and moved inside a gully. Shortly before 17:00, the man's lifeless body was found at the foot of some trees. At 5.50 pm the doctor managed to reach the place and proceed with the ascertainment of the death. The body has been embarked and the intervention of the Treviso emergency air ambulance is awaited, which will provide for recovery by winch.
Can't yet identify launch coordinates.

I'm saying if he'd immediately thought of his chute - with a thousand feet of air below him - he could very probably have walked away from this one. (Think Kelly Harrison / Arys Moorhead.) But of course the kind of individual who would have a proper mindset with respect to his chute would also have the proper mindset with respect to why he might be needing his chute...

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...and thus would've never launched unhooked in the first place.

Now that I think of it... If there were an SOP mandating a practice grab of the deployment handle at launch position just before lifting the glider that would probably eliminate unhooked launches almost as effectively as lift-and-tug.

Oh well, another great wake-up call.

No chatter on Davis, Jack, Bob, Grebloville, Capitol... Looks like we scooped this one. Thanks again Jonathan.
---
2021/05/10 04:10:00 UTC

At 45°48'00.44" N 011°46'23.53" E there's a substantive little hill just out on the coastal plane that was a match for one of the newspaper photos:

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that allowed me to ping in on the launch: 45°49'28.21" N 011°46'15.45" E - 2820 feet MSL, about 2200 vertical. Current Google Earth imagery is a composite of 2015/10/19 and 2016/10/28 and shows an ASTOUNDING swarm of airborne paragliders.
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NMERider
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Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by NMERider »

The sad passing of Federico Baratto is posted on Italian TV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRDlytSC1Ag
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.italy24news.com/local/45598.html
"The launch, then Federico Baratto flew down" - Corriere.it
Five quick steps on the hang gliders' platform, the deadlift at 850 meters above sea level, he who ends up in an unnatural position holding on to the bar with only the strength of his arms, a few seconds, a desperate scream and the fall into the void of Mount Grappa. Hooked to the hang glider only she remains, the friend who is passing by, but she does not know how to fly it. And so the craft is unbalanced, the wings rear up, draw a pirouette, reverse course and end up on the mountain, where they become entangled in a tree on the precipice.

"I didn't understand what happened"

The balance is tragic and miraculous at the same time: he, Federico Baratto, 51 years old from Padua, instructor and national champion in 2018, will be found lifeless a hundred meters below, in the middle of the shrubs of Borso del Grappa, in the Treviso area. She, Eva, twenty-eight from Trieste, will be saved hanging on a plant on the wall. A movie. "The sail that protected it was practically unscathed, a miracle", says Mario Brunello of the Alpine Rescue who was the first to arrive on site with his team. In shock, Eva was taken to the Bassano hospital for a sprained ankle. He sighed a few things to the investigators: "I didn't understand what happened, I only saw the hang glider that suddenly rose and I found myself on the tree. It was all very bad."

The investigator: "Human error"

She had left Trieste on Saturday with the friends who had given her the flight. Before her a friend had made it and then told something amazing. In the early afternoon it was her turn. "Federico had hooked me and I thought he was too. He was under me, I felt he was taking the run but I didn't understand what happened." The Carabinieri of Castelfranco Veneto are investigating what happened and have already reported to the Treviso prosecutor. "It was in all likelihood a human error, the instructor had not secured himself - explains an officer of the Arma investigating the case. In any case, at the moment, there are no third party responsibilities.

Federico Baratto's friend: "Nobody checked him"

But how is it possible that a flight expert like Baratto, instructor since 1994, qualified for two-seater flights for 22 years, forgot to hook up with hang gliding, that is rule number one? "We are all asking ourselves this, also because we are very taxed on checks and controls before take-off." says Baratto's colleague and friend, Daniele Matteazzi. "36 years of flying behind us. Moreover, Federico was a scrupulous person. The only answer I can give me is that something abnormal has happened and the anomaly I see is only one: the camera. Let me explain: he will have insured the passenger and himself, then he realized that the camera was off, he unhooked to turn it back on and he forgot to put the hook back on."

"Too many tragedies, let's change the rules"

Matteazzi is heartbroken and angry. "Because if someone had been there to assist him it wouldn't have happened. Assistance before take-off is not an obligation but should become one. It is not the first time this has happened on Col del Puppolo." Last April 10 it cost the life of an 83-year-old fan. Baratto, a flying champion, crashed on Saturday. A damn flight that Eva will never forget."

2021/05/10 07:16)
Five quick steps on the hang gliders' platform, the deadlift at 850 meters above sea level, he who ends up in an unnatural position holding on to the bar with only the strength of his arms, a few seconds, a desperate scream...
Panicked, terrified, hopeless. No thought of the parachute.
...and the fall into the void of Mount Grappa. Hooked to the hang glider only she remains, the friend who is passing by, but she does not know how to fly it.
Unfortunately neither did Federico - when all is said and done.
And so the craft is unbalanced, the wings rear up, draw a pirouette, reverse course and end up on the mountain, where they become entangled in a tree on the precipice.

"I didn't understand what happened"

The balance is tragic and miraculous at the same time: he, Federico Baratto, 51 years old from Padua, instructor and national champion in 2018, will be found lifeless a hundred meters below, in the middle of the shrubs of Borso del Grappa, in the Treviso area. She, Eva, twenty-eight from Trieste, will be saved hanging on a plant on the wall. A movie. "The sail that protected it was practically unscathed, a miracle", says Mario Brunello of the Alpine Rescue who was the first to arrive on site with his team. In shock, Eva was taken to the Bassano hospital for a sprained ankle. He sighed a few things to the investigators: "I didn't understand what happened, I only saw the hang glider that suddenly rose and I found myself on the tree. It was all very bad."
Not all. The passenger came out in pretty good shape - physically anyway.
The investigator: "Human error"
Keep up the great work investigating, investigator.
She had left Trieste on Saturday with the friends who had given her the flight. Before her a friend had made it and then told something amazing. In the early afternoon it was her turn. "Federico had hooked me and I thought he was too."
So did he. Probably was right for some period in the preparations. Me... I NEVER think I'm hooked in - until after it's too late to do much about the situation.
"He was under me, I felt he was taking the run but I didn't understand what happened."
Too bad. Maybe if Federico had briefed you on the potential dangers of these operations. Like they do with all the passengers as the jet's slowly rolling out to launch position.
The Carabinieri of Castelfranco Veneto are investigating what happened and have already reported to the Treviso prosecutor.
Great. So they probably googled "unhooked launch" and read my article on this issue.
"It was in all likelihood a human error, the instructor had not secured himself - explains an officer of the Arma investigating the case."
Great work, Sherlock.
In any case, at the moment, there are no third party responsibilities.
Like the people who trained and certified him. Totally off the hook - if you'll pardon the expression.
Federico Baratto's friend: "Nobody checked him"
You mean like:

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Is this the sorta intervention we're still counting on?
But how is it possible that a flight expert like Baratto, instructor since 1994, qualified for two-seater flights for 22 years...
And thus around as a tandem driver for 2003/03/29 Steve Parson / Eleni Zeri and everything that followed.
...forgot to hook up with hang gliding, that is rule number one?
Astonishing. I have no fuckin' clue how something like this could happen either. Most of the time it's some clueless newbie who had no business getting involved in the sport in the first place. Too bad Jim Rooney can't be bothered to swing by and give us the benefit of his keenly intellectual opinion.
"We are all asking ourselves this, also because we are very taxed on checks and controls before take-off." says Baratto's colleague and friend, Daniele Matteazzi.
Yeah, ya sure don't want anybody going off with an unbuckled helmet. Also gotta make those parachute container pins are fully engaged. The results of an unintended deployment are never pretty.
"36 years of flying behind us. Moreover, Federico was a scrupulous person."
Like everybody else who's ever launched unhooked? Maybe scrupulousness isn't really the ticket for this issue.
"The only answer I can give me is that something abnormal has happened and the anomaly I see is only one: the camera. Let me explain: he will have insured the passenger and himself, then he realized that the camera was off, he unhooked to turn it back on and he forgot to put the hook back on."
Whoa, who could've ever predicted a scenario like that developing and implemented a strategy to protect against it.
"Too many tragedies, let's change the rules"
Nah, your rules are fine. The problem is you have assholes like Federico not following them. And the Darwin effect will eventually get that issue properly sorted out.
Matteazzi is heartbroken and angry.
Any of these motherfuckers yet bothered to read my article?
"Because if someone had been there to assist him it wouldn't have happened."
1. Not enough cooks.

2. Eva was there to assist him. Did she get treated as a participant? Or just another bucket lister up for a photo of herself flapping her arms like a bird not even briefed on how to make the glider go up/down/left/right 'cause that was all gonna be covered after launch maybe?
"Assistance before take-off is not an obligation but should become one."
1. More cooks. A hundred pound unpowered aircraft with a max capacity of two and we need ground crew to make sure it gets safely airborne.
2. And from this point on you're gonna be working tirelessly to make sure this happens, right?
"It is not the first time this has happened on Col del Puppolo."
It probably is.
Last April 10 it cost the life of an 83-year-old fan.
Somebody dropped an 83-year-old and we never heard about it? Sounds like somebody got knocked off the ramp or died on a blown launch. Whatever... Nice job keeping the lid on.
"Baratto, a flying champion, crashed on Saturday. A damn flight that Eva will never forget."
Because her driver DID. And I'll bet if Eva continued on in the sport to whatever level this is one mistake she'd never make.
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Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by NMERider »

There was a previous fatal FTHI on April 16 at the same launch:
Fabio Giongo
44m

Allow me to reflect on the two incidents that have recently taken place that have upset me quite a bit. I'm a hang glider in Fassa Valley and during this spring period usually causes snow on our takeoffs or inaccessibility, we happen to fly over Pedemontana in Bassano or Panarotta. On April 16 with my friend Claudio Deflorian at the take-off of Bassano (Puppolo pedana) there was also Federico Baratto mounting his Atos, on that occasion I asked him if he knew the cause of the incident that took place on April 10 to pilot Enzo Giordani from the very same platform. He told me that the hang gliding had been found in the woods, and the pilot's body, found instead underneath the deck where there is a rock jump, this according to him made the dynamics clear, meaning that the pilot was not hooked. Federico and the local riders assumed Enzo had forgotten to hook up what happened before and, friends / pilots had pointed it out to Enzo on other occasions. That day, for Enzo it was the second flight of the day, at 83 years old it seems that he left without hooking up, Federico told me with tone of surprise and perplexity, implying "how can you forget the hookup?"

On May 8th, unfortunately the same thing happened to Federico, even for him according to two-seat of the day as we know.

In Enzo's case there were no witnesses, so there is no certainty of the dynamics, in Federico's case besides witnesses there is also footage that proves what happened and I personally don't agree with his spread for respect for everyone.

These accidents that happened to 2 of our friends on the free flight should teach us that nothing is obvious and that pre-flight checks should be routine, as happens in the world of aviation. You never learn enough and considering that human error has always been lurking, especially in regular actions and automaticism, (it also happens in other sports such as climbing for example, when the climber forgets to finish the knot with the rope safety in the harness for distraction or whatever else) extra precautions should be used. Methods already used by many pilots, hook the harness to the hang glider before harnessing, or try harness right before take-off. I have adopted a control system, before lifting the hang glider to take me off, (especially when I'm at the unassisted departure), a simple check-list that I attach to you with the most important points to check and that I carry in my pocket harness.

I don't know what's the best method, but definitely checking before leaving I think today more than ever has become necessary.

I hope I wrote something constructive for all of us, I want to remember Enzo's sympathy and Federico's meticulousness, two friends with whom I have and we shared a passion for this wonderful sport. Surely I will meet them in the skies of Bassano or over the Dolomitical tops and we will still fly together.

Bye Enzo and Federico
I fly actively every week and carry the fear of launching unhooked as a painful reminder to perform my hook-in check along with assuming that I am always unhooked.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9149
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

And on every foot launch I ever executed - untold hundreds - I assumed I wasn't hooked in - and was wrong every single time. And on the untold thousands of foot launches Federico ever made he assumed he WAS hooked in - and was only wrong ONCE. My track record sucked beyond description compared to his.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRDlytSC1Ag
IN UN VIDEO IL TRAGICO LANCIO COSTATO LA VITA A FEDERICO BARATTO I 10/05/2021
IN A VIDEO THE TRAGIC LAUNCH THAT COST THE LIFE OF FEDERICO BARATTO ON 10/05/2021
Kinda a crappy low resolution video (and thanks bigtime - A3 NEWS Veneto - for your placement of your caption) but the most spectacular of its kind that wasn't immediately tucked away in a vault somewhere so no one could ever see it.

01-0000
- 01 - chronological order
- 00 - seconds
- 00 - frame (25 fps)

In the very first frame we can clearly see Federico's limp harness suspension with his carabiner dragging on the ramp. (Probably the significant other capturing the memory on his iPhone back behind launch position.)

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Eva twenty-eight from Trieste's left arm (pink) is wrapped around Federico's harness to the chest area. Federico's left arm (black) going to the port control tube. Everything's feeling just fine at this point.

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Transitioning.

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Uh-oh.

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If the glider doesn't pull up he can hold on long enough to remember that he has a parachute.

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The glider starts pulling up.

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Max shadow on the tree canopy.

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Separation about here.

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Coming out from under the shadow of what used to be his wing.

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Hope you paid attention during the orientation, Eva.

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P.S. You no longer have a parachute. Remember that when you're posting your review.

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Nice job on the aerobatics flying solo six seconds into your first experience as Pilot In Command.

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Federico is now a two by three column of white pixels. This is the last instant he'll ever be seen alive - and physically well.

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Gone. In another small fraction of a second he will forever cease to exist.

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Really really sad. And the only thing that will change is that a lot of people who knew Federico will fly less and fade out of the sport sooner. But one can only imagine how much worse things would've turned out if he'd given himself a false sense of security seven seconds prior to the first frame.

Tom Galvin, on The Jack Show last:
- 2020/11/25 23:18:20 UTC - post
- 2021/03/22 03:46:43 UTC - active

Don't hold your breath waiting for his next contribution to the discussion - which, so far, is only happening, extremely lightly, on The Davis Show.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9149
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51177855484_e71c84ba77_o.png
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And some crime scene shots from:

http://www.trevisotoday.it/cronaca/morto-deltaplano-borso-grappa-oggi-8-maggio-2021.html
Si schiantano con il deltaplano: morto un uomo, illesa invece la compagna

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Escarpment launch.

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Venice is 38 miles that way. Should be able to see it (from the 2820 foot MSL launch) anytime the air is reasonably clear.

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Impact was somewhere not far from 45°49'13.16" N 011°46'46.34" E and around 1560 vertical feet down from the ramp. From first frame to gone was 7.08 seconds. I think a chute could've been done - if we'd started doing things right at the earliest opportunity after commitment. A window of maybe two or three seconds.

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What little is left of Federico getting his second passenger status flight of the day.

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