http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016
NMERider - 2016/04/15 20:41:34 UTC
Michael Grisham - 2016/04/15 19:28:57 UTC
The problem with scooter towing for the new student is the repetitious nose high attitude takeoff practice becomes an ingrained habit...
This phenomenon resulted in the death of an acquaintance of mine who mainly did scooter towing in Ohio.
Chris Thale - On 2009/11/27.
He was out at Crestline while in the area on business and walked up to the ramp with his nose up in the scooter tow position and got lifted sideways off the ramp. He got lucky and flew away. The same thing...
Not the same thing at all.
...happened again at a much less forgiving place.
Read Eastern. One of the many troubles with hang gliding is that the power base is in California which is where the launches are all mountain and tend to be forgiving and the airtime in general and thermal time in particular is a lot easier to rack up.
It may have been Henson's Gap.
It was. 'Cept the place is Henson Gap.
It was fatal.
This is rubbish. There is no scooter tow nose position. Assuming no wind you start with the same pitch you would for any no wind foot launch. It's only when tension is ramped up and airspeed is attained that the glider will adjust/trim/pitch up. You don't stand there (assuming you're hooked in) holding your nose up.
AT dolly launch the glider is set on the cart with the nose a bit high. As it gets up to speed the glider trims nose down. You come off the cart at a low angle of attack then climb with a low angle of attack but high pitch attitude until the Rooney Link increase the safety of the towing operation and you benefit from an inconvenience stall.
A formerly active Org member was not only a first responder but was requested by the sheriff to review the keel-mounted video of the grizzly event.
Here's the account of his last attempt to aviate:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14608
Another HG death.
Nibs - 2009/11/28 14:41:46 UTC
Atlanta
I did not see Chris Thale launch but talked to almost everyone who did. I was told his nose was too high and that he was six feet behind the red line when he yelled clear and began his launch. I was also told he was instructed to lower his nose several times. Immediately after clearing his wire crew, his left wing began to drop and right wing raised, this continued as he went down the ramp. When he hit the vertical airflow at the edge of the ramp where the red line is, his nose popped up even higher and the glider entered into a 180 degree turn to the left back toward the cliff face. He impacted the rock cliff face straight on, then the glider dropped nose-down to the ledge about 75 feet below.
Wanna see a reasonable facsimile on a similar ramp not too far away?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuSHh0nmKkQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuSHh0nmKkQ
07-1412
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3900/14557433291_0d22597fd6_o.png
11-1513
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2926/14374222698_ed4d1c396d_o.png
It was a totally fucked up launch and Chris's crew doesn't get any awards for keeping things under control either.
Mountain foot launches are complex, demanding, and DANGEROUS and it's total rot to suggest that learning to fly through towing is a factor making them more so. Angle of attack is angle of attack no matter where you are or...
28-04208
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1551/25962165725_29efd47b80_o.png
...what you're doing. This pitch attitude:
04-0628
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1506/26333182002_015c4ab16c_o.png
is just fine for the training hill or a scooter tow launch. But it's gonna get you killed at a ramp with a steep drop-off and the wind blasting UP.
10-30301
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8045/29317212532_45d7f2e054_o.png
Davis Straub - 2016/04/12 00:23:34 UTC
All students at Blue Sky learn first using the low and slow method with the small scooter tow. Later students are taken to a hill side to learn to launch on a hill.
As opposed to being taken to a hillside to learn to land on a hill.
Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt is supposed to be the greatest thing in hang gliding since sliced bread and to say otherwise is heresy. So how come he isn't reporting incidents arising from this alleged issue and it isn't addressed in the Blue Sky / Wills Wing scooter tow video?
If this bullshit about scooter tow trained pilots instinctively setting their noses too high at mountain launches has any legitimacy then shouldn't we be seeing hill trained pilots diving into the ground when they go to foot launch tow?
If you can't figure out where the fuck to point your nose at launch based on what the air is doing then either don't fly or stick to towing - preferably dolly or platform launch.
Nothing drives an active pilot out of the sport like being there when pilots get killed.
Why? They die doing what they love and this is the way all of us wanna check outta this world and reunite with our previously departed friends in that endless thermal beyond.
It doesn't just drive people who were there out of the sport. It also drives people who knew and liked them out of the sport. And we can't measure the effect 'cause what happens is that flying becomes less fun for them so they don't do it as much and then just quietly disappear from the sport without anybody really noticing. When Chad got killed down at Quest flying for me for a long time afterwards went from being fun to something I needed to make myself do.
I know one pilot who was present during the deaths of three different pilots he knew all in the space of a year or so.
Remind me to keep him off my crew.
I know several pilots who were first responders for some ugly looking fatal accidents and it really takes a toll.
Ugly looking hang gliding accidents are different. It makes the sport more attractive to us by highlighting the risk.
Enough grizzly talk.
Not many fatal accidents more ugly looking than the bear attack jobs. Stay the hell away from those cubs no matter how cute they are.
This is National Individual Tax Deadline Day in the U.S. And we all know there are three certainties in life:
Death, Taxes and The Speed of Light
Four. Hang gliding will never be fixable...
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=2437
Letter of Resignation
Rodger Hoyt - 2016/04/15 07:43:26 UTC
In what is probably the shortest tenure of any office holder in any realm, I herewith resign from the US Hawks Board of Directors. Please delete me from future correspondence. This may be beneficial for voting purposes as it provides an odd number of BOD members to preclude possible tie votes. Thanks guys, it's not you, it's me. I have come to despise what hang gliding has become and I don't think it's possible to change it. I want to retire from the sport with a few pleasant memories remaining. Good luck in your endeavors.
...because of the kinds of dregs it attracts and puts in control.
Let's talk about the something light.
Not until we actually address the actual issues that got Nancy killed two weeks ago.
Christopher LeFay - 2016/04/15 21:30:27 UTC
New to solo airtowing, I have experienced the inverse- habitually pulling in when coming off of the cart. Unlike a new student, I'm sufficiently self-possessed to consciously correct the reflex after receiving corrective instruction.
I find your sufficient self-possession to be truly awe inspiring. If only there were many more like you we'd have many fewer new AT students pulling in just off the cart and flying into the ground.
Christopher LeFay - 2016/04/15 21:38:16 UTC
The level of focus required to safely operate a scooter is only periodically sustainable. While some have much greater capacity, I reckon that high number is beyond the limits of the operator in our club.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. After all, the operator in your club tolerates having you in your club.
What do you say, Glenn- is 87 a reasonable number?
Yes. It's only as you get to 88 that things start becoming a bit unreasonable.
I really can't say, as I would just be speaking from my own limitations.
We've noticed.
Christopher LeFay - 2016/04/15 21:41:18 UTC
Ryan Voight - 2016/04/15 16:46:17 UTC
But- since no one seems to be angry with the student for steering poorly... I'd like to suggest we also shouldn't get too angry with the instructor for appearantly teaching poorly- for the same reason. Maybe we need to face it that the Instructor Training Program (ITP) is deficient in adequately preparing individuals for the overwhelming challenges in teaching humans to aviate.
Sounds familiar.
Christopher LeFay - 2016/04/13 17:26:10 UTC
A very caring-yet-less-than-competent instructor recently impressed on me that SOP's and ethos are like down tubes without a base bar. Authoritative education of instructors is that missing element. A conscientious instructor closely adhering to SOP's is a danger without the comprehensive knowledge and experience provided by expert training.
1. How would you know? Where's the data or anecdotal evidence to support that statement? Hang gliding ain't rocket science and most of the people who belong in it don't need instructors for much of anything.
2. Name one:
- foot launch instructor who makes any pretense of adhering to u$hPa's hook-in check SOP
- AT instructor who makes any pretense of adhering u$hPa AT SOPs
Glenn Zapien - 2016/04/15 22:02:22 UTC
It was continuous, conditions were very good, pretty sure the number wasn't intentional. Do I think that is a high number for one rig? Yes... that being said, everything flowed, everyone worked together. Having seen and done it over the years, I would not want to repeat that.
Having listened to your incoherent babbling on hang gliding and other issues over the years I wouldn't want you to.
2016/04/15 22:19:00 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay
Get fucked, Christopher.
Takeo77 - 2016/04/15 23:12:42 UTC
My experience there as well. On a good day it was like launching jets off an Aircraft carrier. ALSO as others have said it wrecked my hill launch technique which bit me hard when I moved from a single to double surface.
But you were still OK launching singe surface.
I don't blame my instructors as PIC I am ultimately responsible...
Like Nancy was two weeks ago. So let's focus all of our blame on her and ease off on Pat.
...however recurring training and mutual support in terms of maintaining good technique is something that would be good for everyone (to be fair, in the Bay Area community I have had this support given to me freely by instructors such as JS, RB, EH and friends such as CC that have gone a long way towards help me identify and solve my problems).
Great! I'll be sure to refer people looking for instruction in the Bay Area to instructors such as JS, RB, EH and friends such as CC to help them identify and solve their problems.
Glenn Zapien - 2016/04/16 01:33:00 UTC
It takes a village...
Wow. That's very profound. Somebody please give that three thumbs up.
2016/04/16 03:02:19 UTC -3 thumbs up - Glenn Zapien
Thanks Christopher. I knew we could count on you.
Ryan Voight - 2016/04/16 04:15:49 UTC
It almost sounds like the lack of negative outcome here is excusing the behavior?
You mean the lack of negative outcome for Davis flying the Davis Link...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC
You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.
I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.
...negates all the ungodly carnage it's caused over the decades it's had establishing its looooong track record?
I know you said you wouldn't want to do it again... but that's different than saying it was wrong, and should not happen like that, right?
How many tows do you think Pat ran two weeks ago before killing Nancy with his standard junk procedures and equipment?
When you say a couple pilots did get the release set up wrong... and it was your job to check it... does that mean you caught the problems, or that a couple pilots with release problems slipped past you?
Who gives a flying fuck? It was a smoking gun statement proving that Mission knew it had a potentially deadly problem with its releases and clients that it did nothing to address before almost killing Lin and addressed by swapping in known deadly crap after. And for all we know - and quite possibly for all anyone will ever know - Nancy was killed by this very same issue.
Glenn Zapien - 2016/04/16 04:44:35 UTC
There was a mixed bag of pilots at different levels of skill. The release they used at the time was not a barrel or trigger release.
Thanks bigtime for giving us vague ideas what the release they were using at the time WASN'T, Glenn.
The style being used worked fine...
Name some STYLES being used that DON'T work fine - just as long as you're not in a situation in which you NEED them to work fine.
...but hooking the line to the release had a possibility of attaching it wrong and being unable to release.
Note the conspicuous dodging of reference to the Lin Lyons incident. He's realized the strategic blunder he's made.
Towing would be stressful for me to be at the controls.
And the dodging of the question.
Bad enough on the training hill.I want them to have fun, and I try to keep it simple approach .
And the way his writing gets even worse than usual.
Doing that many tows was efficiency and teamwork. I was happy to just chase the line and bring it to the next Pilot to launch. Learned alot about towing. It's not something of a one instructor activity. I'm sure it has its purpose, but not a must for me.
Thank you, Glenn. You've helped us tremendously.