http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016
Brian Scharp - 2016/08/20 00:03:29 UTC
Good luck, you're talking to someone who thinks flex wings will follow the direction they're being pulled.
Get Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney back on here. He thinks that if a 914 Dragonfly pulls a pro toad through the control frame the glider will pitch down and nose in.
Ryan Voight - 2016/08/20 02:47:50 UTC
Steve,
Totally agree- we have pretty lackluster control in comparison to most other flying things. When, in any small general aviation aircraft, does one *have* to perform a full control input just to maintain heading or desired bank? How many 40 year old Cessnas and Pipers out there have never had the yoke turned full-stop while in flight?
Show me some videos of two point AT pilots making full-stop inputs down in the kill zone. Hell, show me some videos of two point AT pilots making full-stop inputs ANYWHERE during the tow. AT lockouts induced by anything other than bozos lacking the Hang 1.5 basic roll control skills plus basic ability to follow a tug are totally nonexistent in the YouTube Universe.
But hang gliders are different. 'Tis what it is.
Yeah, hang gliders are different. We can't just apply the physics and procedures of conventional fixed wing aviation to hang gliders 'cause they're weight shift controlled and designed to land only in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place. And in towing conventional gliders use weak links to protect the aircraft against overloading and releases to release the glider in normal and emergency situations while hang gliders use weak links to break before you can get into too much trouble because they use releases that can't be used after the glider gets into any trouble whatsoever.
But that introduces a concept, pointing to where most losses of control arise... is it the fault of the aircraft for the amount of roll it can generate... or does it become the fault of the pilot for flying that aircraft into conditions or situations beyond it's limitations.
1. I dunno... Let's take a look at a recent one:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48425
Oregon flying on the edge
Davis Straub - 2016/07/12 19:25:33 UTC
I am thinking that perhaps the conditions had little to nothing to do with this accident. I'm thinking that the pilot made a mistake, letting go of the bar with one hand. and the pitch became far too great far too fast.
This comes from what Russell told me, what April told me and what the first responders told Belinda. Why did he let go?
Davis Straub - 2016/07/14 02:50:47 UTC
EMT speculated that he was reaching for his camera as it slipped out of a pocket.
But of course this never happens when you make the easy reach to your...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25527
Mouth AT Releases
Zack C - 2012/03/14 05:29:01 UTC
And if you're just approaching a lockout, taking a hand off the bar could be the very thing that puts you into a lockout.
...easily reachable release.
2. The only purpose for which a qualified pilot tows a hang glider is to get to workable altitude in soarable conditions. Thus ALL pilots fly the aircraft into conditions that may instantly and without warning become well beyond ITS (no apostrophe) limitations. That's why we need to use weak links to protect our aircraft against overloading, releases that don't stink on ice, and bridles that keep the glider in its certified relationship with pilot position.
We all know that the more soarable it gets, the less reliable the conditions become from a safety standpoint. Landing at 1 or 2 pm in the spring, in a hot dry desert- say, like the Owens Valley- the chances or encountering conditions that are beyond your control (regardless of how skilled you may be).
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
But all your stupid landing clinics are about flying with your hands at shoulder or ear height...
089-33215
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1536/26368271340_be52787e57_o.png
...where you can't control the glider.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O
NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC
I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.
I'm pointing all of this out because, A) it's the responsibility of the pilot to recognize and respect the limitations of his or her aircraft...
1. Also the responsibility of the Hang One student to recognize and respect the limitations of his or her instructor, tow driver, tow system, and crappy equipment he or she has been issued or sold.
2. With dickheaded u$hPa instructors putting out rot like:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC
It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.
During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?
Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC
God I love the ignore list
Tad loves to have things both ways.
First weaklinks are too weak, so we MUST use stronger ones. Not doing so is reckless and dangerous.
Then they're too strong.
I have no time for such circular logic.
I had it with that crap years ago.
As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.
You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.
3. In other words, nobody should ever tow in soaring conditions.
...and B) what you're talking about is the same be it towing or traditional flying.
1. Right. Like in both free flying and towing whenever you find yourself in a critical situation at low altitude your first response should be to let go of the bar with one hand and make an easy reach for something. And in both free flying and towing there's no other individual controlling the forces on and control inputs to your glider. It's just you, your glider, and Mother Nature. And anyone who doesn't agree with those principles doesn't need to be involved in our sport.
2. TRADITIONAL flying? Slope launched hang gliding evolved out of boat towing.
To suggest we maybe shouldn't tow... but flying around is all fine and dandy... I personally fail to see the logic in dividing the two.
OK, we'll just add that to the long list of things in which you fail to see the logic - like Newtonian physics.
Towing is, like I said earlier, just hang gliding with a rope attached.
To your control system. With a weak link of several hundred pounds to make sure you can't get into too much trouble. What's the worst that could happen?
We're getting dangerously close to the discussions hang glider pilots have about
paragliders It's always blame being levied on the aircraft as inferior or unairworthy, because in any kind of active conditions it requires constant pilot input...
...except, of course, while making the easy reach to your Industry Standard release...
...to fly with what most consider an acceptable level of safety. Sound familiar?
Boy do you sound familiar, motherfucker. And don't think for a nanosecond that I don't know EXACTLY what your Industry Standard game is and how you're playing it.
Steve Morris - 2016/08/19 22:55:15 UTC
The lack of inherent stability on tow (i.e constant corrective input required even in calm conditions)...
But again, I have to suggest you strike the "on tow" from your statement. For reasons I am sure *YOU* of all people understand- weight shift flex wing hang gliders MUST be designed with a certain level of instability in them, primarily/specifically in roll.
Bill Bryden - 2000/02
Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
Yep.
The design of the glider, or it's stability, don't magically change when on tow (you know that Steve!)
So did Jeff Bohl in his final few seconds of life.
But again I will be clear in saying I don't quite agree (although don't particularly disagree either) that there's some massive unacceptable flaw in hang glider handling characteristics.
Fuckin' dickheads such as yourself preventing us from getting any problems fixed.
A comparison may be... driving a car down the highway. You can let go of the steering wheel, and nothing dramatic happens. It might even track straight and give the illusion of "stability" for a bit... but after a while, it's bound to wander to the left or to the right. Is this an inherent design flaw in the vehicle? I say no.
And now let's take out the windshield, clamp a cable to the top of the steering wheel, disable the power steering, and tow the car on a curvy mountain road to simulate hang glider towing.
If the vehicle wanders far enough, it is going to strike a median, a guardrail, or go off the road and hit whatever might be over there... isn't this akin to a lockout?
No motherfucker. See above. You're not even towing the car by one of its tow rings for your totally bogus analogy.
If the glider wanders, and is allowed to continue wandering, there is a point where it goes from easily recoverable to bad deal in a hurry.
1. Yeah. It might run into the median strip.
2. So what you're saying, you miserable lying little shit, is that you can't be flying dead center in Dr. Trisa Tilletti's bogus Cone of Safety, get hit by a bullet thermal, and find yourself on your fuckin' ear before you can blink - the way some of us who operate in the REAL world have from time to time.
I guess what I'm trying to say-
...is the same sort of disinformation rot Pat Denevan would be saying if posting here wouldn't open him up to cross-examination.
...and what got me posting here again despite my efforts to avoid the forum dynamic...
You're back here to do damage control for u$hPa.
...and the mysery...
The word you coined to define a combination of mystery and misery.
...it brings me LOL-
...is the common theme in taking responsibility.
All the Hang One student and never the motherfucker who put her at three hundred feet on total shit equipment with no way to zero the tension from his end EITHER.
First the significant other's post about Nancy, where he takes away that which pilots often hold quite dear: We have great freedom in that we are responsible for ourselves.
Suck my dick, Ryan.
He touches on all the reasons Nancy would stand up and say "this was my fault, guys", if only she had survived.
1. Yeah Ryan. You know that fer sure. No fuckin' way would she be thinking on feeling along the lines of what her significant other is.
2. And let's not look at the model of Shannon Hamby - who was VERY badly injured as a result of very clear gross negligence by one of u$hPa's money factories and sued our national organization half outta existence.
3. She might have. Pilot types tend to blame themselves for any and all bad stuff that happens to them. We can look at the Holly Korzilius fiasco as a model. But we who've been in this aviation game for a few decades and understand the bullshit these money factories and the national organization play know WAY better. No Nancy. This was 100.00 percent NOT YOUR FAULT.
And then these posts about how towing is unsafe... or at least towing hang gliders is unsafe...
All from the people who are way to smart to have ever towed themselves.
...such statements relieve the pilot of their responsibility in the choices they make.
Anybody care to start a petition of Threes and up stating that responsibility for keeping Nancy safe on three hundred foot tows was THIS:
http://www.hang-gliding.com/about/staff
Owner Pat Denevan is a leader in the development of modern hang gliding training standards and the USHGA Instructor Certification Program. In 2001, he received the United States Hang Gliding Association's instructor of the year award.
guy's...
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2016/05/11
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
06. Beginner Hang Gliding Rating (H1)
-C. Recommended Operating Limitations for Beginner Pilots flying solo:
02. It is highly recommended that all flights be made under the direct supervision of a USHPA Certified Basic or Advanced Instructor.
...and not Nancy's?
- If it's highly recommended that all flights be made under the direct supervision of a u$hPa Certified Basic or Advanced Instructor does the u$hPa Certified Basic or Advanced Instructor get a free pass when she finishes her fourth flight brain dead and is fully dead the following day?
- Remember when Steve Parson - who had previously scored a manslaughter conviction for dropping an unhooked passenger in New Zealand - got all of his tickets shredded by HPAC after sending Marvin Trudeau on 2010/08/18 into conditions he didn't survive? Remember the way no one was leaping to his defense and spewing the kind of total rot that Ryan is?
- And many of us - 'specially from this neck of the woods - can remember what total hell it was to advance to high sites and Hang Threes 'cause we weren't permitted to take so much as dead air sled rides without paying off u$hPa ratings officials.
- Anybody think that Nancy would've been taking three hundred foot tows if it were just Ziggy telling her it was OK and driving the winch?
This thing we do- flying- IS dangerous.
'Specially with dickheads like you and your dad controlling all the training and standards.
Often people get away scratch free even after egregious errors... and then once in a while someone gets really seriously injured- or in this case dies- from what are in all likelihood pretty small mistakes.
That's OK. Nancy fully understood the risks of what she was doing and went brain dead doing what she loved.
It's not fair. It's not predictible, if we will be forgiven or punished dearly, for any error.
Speaking of punishing people dearly... Let's show a pool of twelve jurors the video of Nancy's last flight and see what their disposition to Pat Denevan is.
But we should know that going in...
Yeah. We all signed the waiver. What more proof do we need?
...and if we choose to do this thing anyway... we need to accept the ultimate responsibility for however each flight or each day turns out.
You're so unbelievably...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28211
Platform towing fatality in Leakey, Texas
Gregg Ludwig - 2012/06/23 20:15:21 UTC
Poor guy was misguided and didn't have a chance.
...totally full o' shit.
Responsibility. Each pilot for themselves.
I'll be sure to bear that in mind if I ever see you in launch position with your carabiner dangling.
And yea, we also help look out for eachother, too! But if one person can forget or miss something, a second person can too.
So obviously...
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies
No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.
...no harm whatsoever in silencing a person or two with another perspective.
It's less likely, of course... but it can happen... and if it does, sure can't blame that second person!
I'm totally convinced. Nancy's instructor, operation manager, and tow driver was doing everything right.
This discussion is good and healthy...
Depends on whether or not you get your balls definitively handed to you - the way we handed Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's balls to him in the course of the Zack Marzec postmortem discussions.
...in spirit... but we're talking about an accident back in April, where by the significant other's own depiction the pilot messed up and paid for it dearly.
Yeah. And the significant other was qualified to state Nancy's pilot qualifications better than scores of long term hang glider tow people are.
And now we're talking about how towing hang gliders is unacceptably demanding or risky?
We who? I know I'm not.
Can we, and shouldn't we, be talking about upping our recognition of responsibility?!
Yeah. Let's dig Nancy up and bash her head in a bit more to really drive home the point. Then we can all have a few brews with Pat and suck his dick to let him know what a great job he's been doing these past few years. Lin Lyons, Scott Howard before this one.
If a bad choice is made... own it! And move on if possible...
Or, if not, rot in your grave unable to participate in the conversation with Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight speaking on your behalf.