http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/08 08:24:38 UTC
If the ushpa is basing it's opinion on Pat and Region 2? Then the ushpa is just as liable and ignorant as Pat and his EGO.
u$hPa isn't IGNORANT. They know EXACTLY what's going on and what they're gonna do in response.
Dave Pendzick - 2016/04/08 14:52:24 UTC
Which insurance policy is going to cover the legal costs of this accident?
The one that will be funded by the membership.
Ryan Voight - 2016/04/08 17:54:40 UTC
Our current (the "old" policy, not the new one via the RRG) will remain in effect through June 1st I believe.
But that's of little consequence... because the premium USHPA will pay for insurance from the RRG is based on several years of actuarial history... so if a suit were to come from this (and I'll point out we have no details, and no idea if a suit would have any legal merit whatsoever), it almost doesn't matter which insurance it would it... it's all bad for all of us and the sport as a whole, should it come to that...
And here everyone was thinking that T** at K*** S****** was the problem most in need of being dealt with.
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:08:26 UTC
Here's what I do know from a student pilot on the scene.
She was in her 40's. Both arms looked fractured. Unconscious and gurgling all the way up to the emergency units took her away. This would also indicate head trauma.
This makes no sense whatsoever. Your arms only get broken when you're flying upright on the control tubes. And if you're flying upright on the control tubes you can't sustain any head trauma 'cause you hit feet first and break your legs. So pick one, dude - arms or head. You can't have both.
The facts as to why she had such a hard impact with speed? Are still unknown?
My guess is she was going too fast when she hit. But that's just speculation.
If she was on the tow system to PROVE herself. It's in my opinion that she was not ready for such a test!
But Mission was teaching her. So theirs is the only opinion that matters.
There are proven methods that PREPARE students for new phases in their flying.
Ones with extremely looooong track records.
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:22:46 UTC
As instructors we have to watch very closely to see that students are developing consistency, control, and true confidence. We also have to instill the best techniques and habits that will make flying much easier and safer.
And those will make up for total crap equipment. 74 posts in this thread as I'm writing, plus another preliminary misplaced four at:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA
No discussion about the facts that the:
- primary easily reachable two-string release
- Birrenator
- weak link
- hook knife
- dumb lever
were of zero use in mitigating the severity of the results of this Hang One training exercise.
We must watch carefully that students are applying techniques that prevent them from locking out! Mentally and physically.
'Cause in the total absence of useable and functional equipment technique is about all ya got going for ya. By the way...
NMERider - 2016/04/06 21:11:00 UTC
I just fired off a letter to Peter Birren for his input on the utility of the Link Knife in this situation.
So what did Peter have to say about this one?
http://www.ushpa.org/legacy/award_recipients.pdf
USHPA Awards - 2015/10
1992 - NAA Safety
- Pat Denevan
2001 - Hang Gliding Instructor of the Year
- Pat Denevan
2005 - NAA Safety
- Peter Birren
2008 - Commendation
- Peter Birren
Toldyaso.
Paul Hurless - 2016/04/09 04:28:45 UTC
This is just useless speculation on your part.
It's more useful than the total silence we're getting from Mission, u$hPa, and the mainstream news media.
You've had a issue with Pat for many years and it looks like you will use any excuse you can to find fault with him and his business even when you state that you don't have the facts.
Yeah Richard! When it's so blindingly obvious that Pat's continuing to do the totally stellar job he always has. Used state-of-the-art equipment until he almost killed a student with it and then IMMEDIATELY swapped it out for even safer equipment - the stuff that just killed this student.
2016/04/10 01:19:07 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Lin Lyons
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:34:21 UTC
Which part is speculation on my part Paul?
Speculation is saying anything about a crash before u$hPa publishes its accident report and after that saying anything that isn't in the accident report.
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:43:04 UTC
As far as me looking for excuses? I'm addressing this situation, cause now it has gone too far.
It hadn't gone too far with Lin 'cause he got his parachute open with several seconds to go before impact?
Paul Hurless - 2016/04/09 04:46:27 UTC
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:08:26 UTC
The facts as to why she had such a hard impact with speed? Are still unknown?
If she was on the tow system to PROVE herself. It's in my opinion that she was not ready for such a test!
There's your speculation.
No Paul. THIS:
speculation - the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence
is speculation. Richard's presenting a hypothetical situation and clearly identifying it as such. So go fuck yourself. Or you and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney can go fuck each other.
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:53:46 UTC
As far as facts about this incident! Only Pat or associate can give all of the details!
Day Seven now.
I called around looking for details. Called some longtime friends and instructors who work for pat. As of now...still radio silence. My biggest worry was it could have been someone I or some other instructors who met or worked with her.
Still have no clue who the young lady was?
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:55:10 UTC
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:08:26 UTC
If she was on the tow system to PROVE herself. It's in my opinion that she was not ready for such a test!
I should have put a ? mark after "herself."
Yeah. Doing that would've made it an intelligible sentence. You definitely need to use more question marks.
And if she was on the tow system to prove herself? I'm stating a fact when I say we can prepare students better! To avoid this completely avoidable situation!
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 05:07:17 UTC
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:53:46 UTC
As far as facts about this incident! Only Pat or associate can give all of the details!
I called around looking for details. Called some longtime friends and instructors who work for pat. As of now...still radio silence. My biggest worry was it could have been someone I or some other instructors who met or worked with her.
Still have no clue who the young lady was?
Thank you, Richard. Missed that the first time.
Paul Hurless - 2016/04/09 05:23:19 UTC
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 04:55:10 UTC
And if she was on the tow system to prove herself?
That statement is pure speculation.
And your statements are just about all pure unadulterated bullshit.
What basis do you have for even suggesting that's why she was towing?
He didn't suggest that's why she was towing. He presented it as a hypothetical. What basis do you have for attacking him? What misleading and dangerous paths are people being led down as a consequence of his posts?
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 05:38:58 UTC
It would be speculation if I were to say..."She was towing to prove herself!"
No, it would be speculation if you were to say, "All evidence we have to date is that Mission products go up on easily reachable two-string releases with Birrenator pitch and lockout protectors. So it's a no brainer that she was on an easily reachable two-string release with Birrenator pitch and lockout protector."
Saying "She was towing to prove herself!" without even knowing who she was would be a total fabrication and easily recognized as such. (Nice job on the grammar though.)
The real question should be. Was she ready and truly prepared for a complex training system?
What if we increased the complexity of the training system with a dolly and a Tad Eareckson Goldberg/Robinson release system? How much worse off do you think she'd have ended up?
What steps or methods were used to completely prepare her for this next phase of training.
I dunno... Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt uses a similar system to put up students who've first shown up half an hour ago and has had tens of thousands of pulls without significant incident. A four-year-old can kill himself by running a bike with training wheels down a steep hill and into a parked car. Doesn't a lot depend on how the equipment is used?
To say she was a qualified hg1 is also a matter of speculation.
Who said she was a qualified One? All we know is that she was signed off on a One almost certainly by the same people who put her in over her head with total shit equipment and killed her.
If you have spent any time teaching Paul.
Any time anyone spent trying to teach Paul anything would've been better spent trying to teach a pig to sing or fly.
You would see a vast difference in what some may consider a quality hg1.
Even a quality One isn't supposed to be able to do more than make minor roll corrections to keep the glider going straight. That's not enough to be good for a tow with enough energy to allow a situation like hers to develop.
A school that uses methods that allow only the strongest and fittest to excel.
If strength and fitness were big fuckin' deals in hang gliding we'd be doing great safety wise. None of these fatalities are occurring 'cause people lack the muscle and speed to make the glider do what they want it to.
Will always have incidents like this one.
Assuming US hang gliding survives - yes.
And the ones who do survive and excel will be loyal representatives. As opposed to those who wash out and feel humiliated.
Or blow the whistle and are permanently excommunicated.
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 06:02:02 UTC
Mark G. Forbes - 2016/04/06 16:41:47 UTC
There was a fatal crash on Sunday at the training site in Tres Pinos, near Hollister. The H1-rated pilot apparently turned away from the line, locked out and failed to release. An investigation is under way to review the facts and produce an accident report.
Please be careful out there. We have lost four pilots already this year; a towing accident in Florida, a mid-air at McClure, a speed wing at Jungfrau in Switzerland and now this training accident.
Judging by this information. It sounds like it was all and completely student pilot error!
She turned away from the tow line.
She locked out.
She failed to release.
See Mark? EXACTLY what I was saying on my previous post a bit over nine and a half hours before his. Even marginally literate Richard here is totally seeing through this crap you've been mostly getting away with for decades. This Ponzi scheme started crumbling with Zack Marzec, got a devastating hit with Arys Moorhead, and is going into major freefall mode with this Mission bullshit. And you're also paying and will be paying a price for that travesty you pulled on Bob Kuczewski.
Will there be an investigation on the methods used by the school?
Yeah. They'll find them to be extremely TYPICAL when they REVIEW the FACTS Pat feeds them.
Will the investigators be experienced instructors or agents of the ushpa?
They're not mutually exclusive, dude. Since the beginning of time it's always been the instructors responsible for student deaths publishing the official findings. Who better? They were THERE and most familiar with the students and their skills and capabilities.
Will the investigators come to a conclusion that everything possible was implemented to avoid this?
You've just quoted the Cliff Notes version of the final report on this one. The H1-rated pilot apparently turned away from the line, locked out and failed to release. Suffered fatal injuries. Shit happens. Recommendation: Let's be careful out there!
(Now ya know what Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney felt like when Team Kite Strings was ripping him a new asshole three years ago, Mark.)
Will the investigators come to the conclusion that there is no need for improvement with this operation?
Less complacency, more focus and risk awareness and management.
Richard Palmon - 2016/04/09 06:54:45 UTC
To imply it was an ACCIDENT is speculation in itself.
No. It's a LIE.
Allowing room for NO accountability.
What? He didn't blame the student enough? She's dead. How much more accountable do we need to hold her? In my opinion it would be way overkill if we further humiliated her by naming her.
Is there another word other than accident that we should start using?
How 'bout two? Negligent homicide.
I can understand if something happens once and the problem is addressed and fixed.
I can't. We've known what the problems were since the beginning of time. The fuckin' Wright Brothers figured out what all the problems were and had them addressed and fixed before the end of 1903. There never have been any lessons to be learned from any of this crap. This situations only result from incompetence and willful negligence.
When it occurs more than once...Then we have a habit in the making.
When it happens even ONCE heads should roll at multiple levels. Mark's told you in fuckin' black and white that u$hPa...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736
Increase in our USHpA dues
Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC
We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.
Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.
...WILL kill every attempt to get things on track that it can get its sleazy lawyer hands on. Last Sunday was just another inevitable consequence of handing control of this sport to a pigfucker corporate attorney.
Or a lack of ability to change and or improve. Or even see a need for improvement?
When something like this happens. It reflects on all of us as a community.
Yep. Not T** at K*** S****** though. The community decided he wasn't good enough to be included seven years ago. What ever reflects poorly on you guys reflects really well on the people in Tad's Hole In The Ground.
What else will it take for the community to say! ENOUGH!
2016 is u$hPa's 1917. This is revolution we're seeing. The bad news is that ultimately it won't change anything for the better... But it will be fun watching all the blood-flow during the transition.