Belated thanks for the heads up on that one, Steve.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=23803
My first post / I messed up!
When you're a Hang One on your ninth scooter tow and there's a screwup the person primarily responsible isn't the Hang One.Ross Lowery - 2011/11/01 15:00:03 UTC
Arkansas
I've wanted to fly for many years and recently attempted to take the first step. I found an instructor somewhat local, got my H1 and bought a Freedom 170. My flying is very limited (scooter tow) because wind conditions were not right at the training hill (about three hours away).
Well, on my ninth scooter tow (less than ten feet on previous tows) I screwed up.
Maybe if you had STARTED down with your hands on the basetube, let the scooter get you up to speed, and eased out after it did the day would've gone a bit better.During my run I reached "my" top speed and was *still* on the ground. This hadn't happened on any previous runs. Sooo, I sort of fell/dove/pushed out on the glider all in one futile motion.
Kinda like this:The glider instantly went up to maybe twenty feet with me almost prone and fully extended. Panicked, I held that position and fell *almost* straight back down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM
Somehow I hyperextended both elbows (never let go of downtubes) resulting in completely torn triceps (both) and completely torn medial collateral ligaments (both elbows). I'm about two weeks out of surgery and helpless but thankful for what I still have. I want to continue my lessons but am having second thoughts. Any input would be appreciated.
Learn from WHOSE mistake?Walt Conklin - 2011/11/01 15:13:58 UTC
Montana
Get back on the horse and try it again, but only when you are completely healed.
Mishaps have a way of creating doubt. Don't let that discourage you. Learn from your mistake.
Only you can decide whether to continue or not. All we can do is offer support.
Good luck, heal well and keep us posted.
Ross Lowery - 2011/11/01 15:23:29 UTC
Thanks. Definitely getting ten inch wheels, at least, on my next trip. Think I will stick to hill training for a while once I'm healed up. Just having a hard time grasping the injury with such a non eventful looking crash. Also, tweaked the cross bar a little.
Yeah, we always tell people that. But the people who are most likely to need to let go of everything are almost always the ones least likely to be able to do it.Walt Conklin - 2011/11/01 15:58:24 UTC
Eight inch wheels will work just fine. Just remember, if you know you're going eat it, just let go of everything, tuck your head and ball up.
- STAY safe?It's a natural instinct to grab onto something, but let the wing take the punishment and not you. Stay safe and keep the faith.
- Lose the goddam faith. That's your worst enemy in this sport.
Sounds like his "instructor" bloody well knew what kind of air it was before, during, and after this little training exercise.Red Howard - 2011/11/01 08:03:29 UTC
Utah
Sounds like you had squirrely air, maybe a light tailwind or thermal behind you.
Bullshit.I do not tow, but I have heard of scooter towing being used when conditions were not optimal. That damage was tough for you. It sounds like you are tougher, though.
And if you wanna minimize the chances of a rerun KEEP launching and landing ON WHEELS.Yeah, I really recommend big wheels. Back in the day, flying something I now regard as Experimental, big wheels probably saved me once from a huge hospital bill or worse (I walked away, literally).
When you start getting it together again, do some serious tandem flying first, with launch and landing ON WHEELS.
Oh no. Blue Sky / Wills Wing scooter towing doesn't recognize dolly launching as a legitimate takeoff technique. You really need to be running as fast as you can with your hands on the downtubes to do this right.Do the scooter towing (if any) from a launch cart.
Interesting concept. But if that were really true I'm sure you'd see a lot more dolly launching than we do now.We have NO possible use (or benefit) with foot-launched scooter towing as a special skill in actual fact. Carts can run way faster than you can.
Don't ya think that would eliminate damn near every option on the continent?Disregard any HG operation where your safety is not the first priority.
Unless it's a glider behind Jim Rooney - God's Gift to Aviation.YOU are the Pilot in Command on anything that you fly solo.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Then you've got some asshole regulating your thrust who's stated in no uncertain terms that he'll kill it whenever he feels like it and dictates what your weak link will be and what equipment you can and can't use on your aircraft. And damn near all the crap on his approved list is substandard and illegal under USHGA and FAA regulations.Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
Don't hold your breath. I'm seeing one long process of everything slowly drifting south.I have gone out to watch HG towing more than a few times, with the intent of learning to tow. In each case, I saw bad practices which the operators had assured me would NOT happen (launches in poor winds, skipped checklists, equipment failures) and I just walked away with my bones and wallet intact. I may go back, but not with me as the tow pilot unless I see things have improved.
Send us a picture of your "tweaked" crossbar. It may be easy to fix, or not.
He's got one.Brad Barkley - 2011/11/01 16:25:23 UTC
Frostburg
Make SURE you have an experienced tow operator who knows what he's doing and knows how to keep you safe.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Just like Jim Rooney.Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg
Or Sam Kellner.
What did the tow operator do when you zoomed up twenty feet to help keep you from pounding in?
Take a wild guess.Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03
NEVER CUT THE POWER...
Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
Sure. He's a Hang One. You don't get a Hang One until after you've perfected your foot landings.And, was he allowing you to scooter tow without wheels?
Yeah, ya can't go wrong with good ol' Steve Wendt.Just make sure you have an instructor who can help you stay safe.
I have done hundreds of scooter tows at Blue Sky (I am now truck towing there) and, though I have screwed up plenty, I have never felt unsafe, never been hurt beyond a few scraped knees.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?
He's exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one who signed off Jim Rooney's instructor rating.Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC
BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.
Good to know his heart was in the right place.Ross Lowery - 2011/11/01 18:06:05 UTC
Thanks for all the advice. The instructor wanted me to have wheels.
Well, you've got lotsa time now.I didn't have time to get them before my lesson.
And I'm sure your *respect* for your "instructor" remains undiminished.And, yes, there was a intermittent tailwind, very, very slight. Could that have caused my impact to be "worse".
It was just a bad day, but I *respect* the glider and sport more because of it.
There are TONS of things that can and do trump experience.I've been reading and watching all I can but nothing takes the place of experience.
- good pair of wheels
- launch dolly
- mindset to lift the glider to the stops five seconds before launching
- one and a half G weak link
- both hands on the basetube release actuator
- two point tow bridle
- runway streamers
A Hang One can walk away smelling like a rose while a Hang Five can leave in a body bag.
I plan to lay off the towing and concentrate on hill launches/landings when I get back. I mean, what could happen on a hill?
My cross bar is just a little tweaked/wrinkled at the padding over by the attachment joint. The downtubes have a very slight arc/bend, almost unnoticeable, and symmetrical on each one. The Freedoms have oval style downtubes. I wondered if they had a slight bend/arc from the factory.
Edit: My glider has the small plastic wheels.
He didn't get fucked up until his "instructor"...Steve Baran - 2011/11/01 19:26:49 UTC
Chattaroy
Ouch - that's got to have hurt! Hope you heal up completely. Wheels will help. I've never towed but from what I've seen in person and heard about on the org - things can go bad quickly (in any form of launching) and towing can accentuate the situation.
...STOPPED towing him.Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
Brent Benoist - 2011/11/01 21:20:10 UTC
Memphis
If you can't use your arms, what are you typing with?
Ross Lowery - 2011/11/01 21:40:19 UTC
Lol, I can type. I just can't reach my face/head. Put on / take off my shirt. Can't push anything (triceps) but CAN bend my elbows against gravity to sixty degrees. My hands are fine.
Edit original post. I'm not helpless. Issues yes, but who doesn't.
Depends a lot on who you have on the front end and what kind of equipment you're using on the back end.Nic Welbourn - 2011/11/01 22:29:36 UTC
Canberra
It's a real bummer you crashed while training, hope you heal well and get back on your dream horse.
I've always wondered about learning HG via towing. Personally, I've recently decided not to continue aerotowing because (apart from the cost, time, and inconvenience) it seems to have a much more narrow margin of error.
Secure in the knowledge that since you NEVER get into your harness unless it's connected to your glider there's NO FREAKIN' WAY you can't be connected to your glider so why bother with a hook-in check?Add thermic conditions to the mix (i.e. this is when you want to be towing) and the risk factor is a little high for this leisure pilot.
But I always have wheels unless it's too windy to self-launch with them.
And there's just something I love about running your wing off a mountain.
It's not like they're mutually exclusive.Best of luck! Better to follow your dreams than know regret.
Yeah, sure.AirNut - 2011/11/02 00:07:27 UTC
Australia
Well said about regret, Nicos.
Whenever you get hurt like that other people get hurt as well. And if you don't have regrets about one of those you're a fuckin' moron.Once I heard a Buddhist monk say something about the basic aim of life that really struck a chord. And that was to get to your deathbed with no regrets (and also not to hurt anyone along the way).
Unless you're towing. Then you're a total idiot if you don't think the guy controlling your thrust can fuck you over but good.CAL - 2011/11/02 00:51:27 UTC
Ogden
This is something I have wondered as well. I love flying and at this point can't imagine not flying, but I also love my health and strength, if I ever limited my health and strength hang gliding (course I am 56 years old) I am not sure if I would return or not.
I think it would be a tough decision, I know several pilots that dust themselves off and hit it again.
My brother-in-law has had two accidents, one from paragliding and one skydiving.
One almost cost him his life. He was hired to dive into stadiums for the Fourth of July.
After returning to dive again for the Fourth of July, I remember the announcer saying after a bad accident he is a hero for returning and jumping once again.
As I thought to myself, a hero? His wife was the hero, it was she who nursed him back to health, day after day! It is she that worries each time wondering if she will ever see him again, every time he enters the plane for his next jump.
I am not sure I could put my wife through that again.
Things that could have changed is, instead of jumping once a year he could have stayed current.
This sport is as safe as you make it.
Try to look for a little competence as well.If you return, stay close to someone who is conservative, knows you and your ability.
Yeah, right. Did you hear what I said about competence?I have always loved flying with Ryan Voight, he has never stopped me from flying but he lets me know the risks, then lets me decide. Most of the time I listen and have enjoyed the margin of safety it renders.
His cost/benefit ratio leaves a bit to be desired at this point.If I would have listened to my ego I would be flying a T2 instead of my U2 which I now love and plan on flying to the best of my abilities so that I can have many fun and rewarding flights. I understand the risks and try to stay focused and current.
Good Luck, I hope your decision will bring you happiness! Flying brings me happiness!