Re: 2005/09/03 AT crash
Posted: 2014/08/07 06:11:33 UTC
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death
- You wouldn't know the most fundamental of questions if they swam up behind you and bit you in the ass.
- You haven't said anything about releases and weak links. Gliders aren't certified to be flown with one hand in critical circumstances or have several hundred pounds of thrust instantly subtracted at the worst possible times, when they're climbing hard in a near stall situations. Those issues have killed tons of otherwise totally sound airworthy gliders.
Tandem pilot and passenger death
Yeah. You SHOULD be, Mister Industry Standards Expert. You should've had your fuckin' head blown off your fuckin' shoulds.Martin Henry - 2005/10/14 05:06:37 UTC
Hmmmm, so I'm getting shot at for not having read the thread?
Only 'cause I'M not in the conversation.(not offended here...
- So just ignore the ones that have been answered repeatedly and ask them again....but)
If you read my questions, you will see even the most fundamental of questions have not been answered...
- You wouldn't know the most fundamental of questions if they swam up behind you and bit you in the ass.
You don't hafta try, Martin. You're a major enough asshole to be able to do it in your sleep.(and I'm not trying to offend anybody here, After all "I am Canadian"!... we can't offend anybody and its always our fault.)
If you think it's bad now then just wait a few years.Look at just the first set of questions, this forum has not answered (not that I'm looking to this forum for answers)...
The kind that whipstalls after it's being towed at an extremely high angle of attack and the weak link increases the safety of the towing operation....what kind of glider was it?
It's history....what was the history of the glider?
Does EVERYBODY hafta misspell that word?...(sure it was hangered...
Who gives a flying fuck? It was doing fine until the rope broke...."set up", but how old? was the sail new?) was it certified? what was the gross aircraft weight? what was its manufactures max load?
Go fuck yourself.These questions are not "fluff". The questions are the stuff a good accident investigation is made of. You have to get all the data to start forming a conclusion.
Yeah. Extremely DAUNTING. After a FUN day we get an account of every bank angle through every turn in every thermal for two hundred miles. But after a sixty-five second mushed tow in sled conditions to 250 feet until a rope break dumps the glider into a terminal whipstall it's a DAUNTING task to gather relevant information and compile a report.With what is known about this crash, I could provide a summation of what I feel what will be the conclusion of an accident report. Such a conclusion would be speculative and without sound data to back up its conclusion.
So rather than get all the data (the daunting task of the crash investigator)...
The weak link?...why don't we just tackle one aspect...
Of course. What was I thinking....the Glider:
According to Joe Gregor's bullshit report it was.What exactly crashed? Was it a Double Vision? Was it a Fly 2? Was it a T2?
That it violates the crap out all FAA aerotowing weak link regulations with ALL tandem and the vast majority of solo flights every time a glider leaves the ground behind a tug?Falcon? Here is a fact the industry does not want to face...
And here are the FAA/USHGA regulations under which we aerotowed aerotowed from the beginning of time until I posted my draft letter to the FAA pointing out that a glider is not certified for shit with someone trying to fly it with one hand:...most of the gliders being used for tandems are not certified (by anybody! HGMA, DHV or BHPA.).
And I just noted that that it doesn't actually say that the glider must be HGMA certified. But I don't know how one can make a case that a glider meets or exceed HGMA airworthiness standards unless it's certified. And I also don't think USHGA was quite that evil back then and I think the intent was that a DHV certified glider be good to go as well.USHGA Aerotow Guidelines - 1985/07
USHGA Safety and Training Committee
The towed vehicle must meet or exceed the Hang Glider Manufacturers Association airworthiness standards.
If the sail were made from the same patterns and material as the original I don't see a real problem with that.Now if you're sharp, you'll note that the Double Vision and the Fly 2 and Falcon are/were certified. So what I would ask you to do is look more closely at the certification. Without question both of these gliders (being used in a commercial application) would have been re-fitted with a replacement sail...
Fuck that. With all the commercial tandem aerobatic thrill rides being done one hundred percent of them with built-in landing gear if that were a problem...fitted with landing gear...
Who's modifying airframes? Besides, assuming you don't increase the weight significantly or decrease the strength about the only things that could matter would be the leading edge sections....airframe mods...
A few pounds? Compensate by not pushing it G-wise....being flown beyond the manufactures max payload.
How 'bout bridles that don't trim the glider properly and releases that force one-handed flying?Not exactly as certified eh?
- Have your findings shown that any of those glider issues have ever mattered?My findings have shown that if examined, most of the industry uses uncertified equipment.
- You haven't said anything about releases and weak links. Gliders aren't certified to be flown with one hand in critical circumstances or have several hundred pounds of thrust instantly subtracted at the worst possible times, when they're climbing hard in a near stall situations. Those issues have killed tons of otherwise totally sound airworthy gliders.
Bullshit. They're all designed to and will take half a dozen Gs. None of them will take one handed flying or rope break induced whipstalls.In most cases the industry uses equipment that is being flown in excess of it original design limitations.
Most of the gliders being flown without proof of pitch or load capabilities prove their pitch or load capabilities every time they fly.Most of the gliders being flown without proof of pitch or load capabilities.
Not in the bloody least.Shocking stuff?
Yeah, shocking. Just think of all the tandem gliders that must've tucked or folded up without anybody hearing about them.Not really, most just assume the gliders are ok, after all, a tandem glider is just a fat old trainers. Now that's the shocking part.
I can.Am I saying the gliders are unsafe? Couldn't tell you.
Bullshit. When tandem gliders go down we hear about them - whether the operations want us to or not. See current issue.No data!
The fuckin' rope broke.If you want to fly a glider outside its original specifications you're going to need to test it, your going to need to re-certify.
...which had been flying just fine since the beginning of time, just like all it's clones...So, with just this one sample of the investigation, we can look back at what is known that is to say;
A glider (probably not certified)...
How? Why? Upon whose decision? With the instantaneous subtraction of how many hundreds of pounds of thrust - asshole?...departed from tow...
POSSIBLY?!...possibly in a very deep stall...
Yeah. At the worst possible time, when the glider was climbing hard in a near stall situation....and at a severe attitude...
Fuck Matt and the Oz Report....(see Matt's comments on in the OZ report about being low in the tow).
It may have been - and probably was - flying around the middle of its weight range.The glider may have been flown in excess of its maximum wing loading or at the very least, near max wing loading.
Somebody shut this total fucking moron up before I go totally insane.If the glider departed from the tow force via the tug end weak link there exists the possibility the tow system at the glider end came in contact with the structure of the glider (this would compromise the glider end weak link, providing an explanation as to why the tug end failed first).
Make it a goddam factory fresh Cessna. Take it to 250 feet and stand it on its tail at half power. Kill the engine. What's gonna happen? Good day or bad day?In this situation, we should not be shocked as to why a glider in this state, would not recover from such a low altitude.
Try pulling your head out of your ass and giving it another go.Just some of the interesting angles that come with looking very carefully at the composition of a crash.