2005/09/03 AT crash

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Davis Straub - 2005/10/11 17:45:14 UTC

BTW, I have lots of private postings from pilots at the scene or who came and gathered evidence. I am not at liberty to disclose them. Why? Because of the possibility of a lawsuit, which, well how about that, we now have.

List some fatal crashes from the history of hang gliding in which there WASN'T a POSSIBILITY of a lawsuit. There's ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY of a lawsuit. So I guess we should NEVER have ANY solid reporting or open discussion about ANY fatal or serious crashes.

- DAMN we were lucky for all those decades when the magazine was filled with detailed information on crashes.

- CURSE the legal system for taking away our LIBERTY to discuss OUR fatal and serious crashes and condemning scores of our pilots to untold death and destruction for generations to come. I'll bet if we bombed a few courthouses we could put an end to this madness.

So if you are looking for a detailed and knowledgeable discussion about the cause of the accident, I guess we won't have the benefit of those observations.

- You mean the way we didn't have shit in the month between the crash and the lawsuit?

- If I were looking for detailed and knowledgeable discussions about the causes of the "ACCIDENTS" the hang gliding culture and industry would be the LAST places I'd be looking for them.

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/11 18:11:39 UTC

Arlans crash

The glider didn't nose dive from 250 ft.

For the LOVE OF GOD, Mike!!! Don't give detailed and knowledgeable information about any causes of this accident! It will be a matter of minutes before the Thompson family's legal team will take away and/or destroy your liberty and everything you hold dear.

It locked out at about 250, started losing altitude while the right wing was dropping. I'm GUESSING that they didn't finally point straight down until about 100-150 ft. Then they started picking up a lot of speed, or so it seemed, and it was straight down from there. I've been in a negative g situation and got my harness cought up on a wire, and that did hinder my control, so that is definitely a possibility. Although I was staring straight at the glider when it locked out it was difficult to tell if the glider came back on itself, or partially inverted. If that was the case then it realy wouldn't matter if they got hung up on a wire, I realy don't see how they can recover from that being that low anyway. I was not able to see Arlan and Jeremiah because of the dirrection the wing was facing. The top of the wing was facing me.

Nothing matters after the stall.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

What part of "The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." are you and everyone else having the most trouble understanding?

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/11 18:30:57 UTC

One other very important issue...

You still here? You're not being detained as a material witness? Your hard drive hasn't even been seized?

...is the fact that it was a over, under stye harness. You have far less leverage from the upper harness that you do in the bottom, and you have a lot less pitch control because your higher in the frame.

Especially in a whipstall.

As strong as Arlan was, He might not have had enough strength, or enough maneuvering room to be able to put enough input into the glider.

Maybe he should've been focusing more on good ways to maintain airspeed and not lose thrust. 'Specially after having recently watched in his mirror Mike Haas plummeting to his death after HIS rope broke.

Davis Straub - 2005/10/11 18:42:35 UTC

As you can see from various articles in the Oz Report re the over/under harness there is not an agreement with your statement:

http://www.ozreport.com/9.200.4
http://www.ozreport.com/9.198.1

Fuck over/under harnesses and the OZ Report. And I'll tell ya one thing... If Jeremiah hadn't been engaged in tandem training we wouldn't be talking about tandem harnesses as possible issues in dive recovery.

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/11 19:09:02 UTC

Tandem harness config.

Comparing the top harness from the bottom harness, it is much harder to fly from the top. I've never flown tandems side by side. It does seem that for every 5 people that say one way is the best, you can find 5 more that say it's not, and another way is the best. This is kind of getting off the subject though.

But isn't it wonderful that ten out of ten people are totally cool with the high tug and chintzy tow rope.

Davis Straub - 2005/10/11 20:28:17 UTC

Again the authors of the articles above disagree with your assessment.

But, is it really beside the point? Much has been made of over/under harnesses because of this accident.

Yes. So what?

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/11 20:49:49 UTC

True

Brian McMahon - 2005/10/11 20:59:20 UTC

Well it's hard to say from the observations (that we know about now) what position the pilot and passenger ended up in after the stall.

Any chance we could focus more of the discussion on shit going on BEFORE and LEADING UP TO the stall?

It is at least conceivable that the wing was stalled all the way to the ground. Even if they were falling at the rate of 100 feet per second, it doesn't mean the wing itself had the air speed to recover with.

Just kidding.

If they had the altitude to recover under ideal conditions...

They were doing the training tow under ideal conditions and couldn't prevent the glider from whipstalling. But we're all baffled by the fact that they were unable to recover from the whipstall in 250 feet in ideal conditions?

one of three logical possibilities exist after the "whip stall":

There is no logic after the whipstall. There's no logic to running off a ramp after skipping a hook in check, backup loops, standard aerotow weak links, releases within easy reach, foot landings, seeing Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney as having a keen intellect, Davis's bullshit about being deprived of the liberty to discuss fatal crashes.

1. One or both became incapacitated somehow.

A CIA neuron disrupter beam.

2. They were unable to control the glider due to positional circumstances or bizarre aptmospheric conditions.

Bizarre 7 PM aptmospheric conditions.

3. Some critical aspect of the glider itself failed.

Its tow rope broke.

My question is: If you are being pulled along at or below stall speed, lose the line and whip stall; would that action throw the pilot and passenger forward into the control frame?

Fuck no. That would only increase the safety of the towing operation - PERIOD. You're just trying to make more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

If the pilot went straight and the passenger went to the left or right of the frame, pulling in the bar could have been difficult or impossible depending on where and how they ended up.

They ended up dead as doornails on top of their towline.

If they had a couple thousand feet they might have sorted it out, but 4 seconds and 250 feet isn't enough time.

If they'd had a driver capable of getting them to a couple thousand feet there wouldn't have been anything to sort out.

JBBenson - 2005/10/11 21:11:14

Re: Lawsuit

No one commenting on a Web Forum has anything to fear from a potential lawsuit, least of all Davis (unless he is subpoenaed as an expert witness).

Or charged as a serial killer.

Honestly relating what one has seen or experienced does not render one liable for either criminal or financial penalties. The law doesn't work that way.

Of course not. Physics doesn't work the way Davis mandates for his tow meets either but that's never slowed him down the least bit.

It's exactly this kind of paranoid feed-back loop that not only initiates the filing of lawsuits (as a means of discovery), but is also a product of them. It works both ways.

That's a deliberately engineered paranoid feedback loop.

The only people who probably shouldn't talk too much are any direct employees of Hang Glide Chicago.

Those are the motherfuckers who SHOULD be talking. Their negligence and criminal misconduct or tolerance of same got a student's life snuffed and they should be doing everything they can by way of atonement - and none of that includes covering their asses.

The suit concerns negligence against Hang Glide Chicago. Negligence is difficult to prove...

'Specially when negligence is standard operating procedure.

...pitting what happened against industry standard practice.

Which violates the crap out of even USHGA SOPs - let alone FAA safety regulations every time a glider leaves the ground behind a tug.

Besides, damages are probably only limited to what Arlens' estate can pay. If that is what the family is after: the suit states "unspecified damages".

Hit USHGA as well. They're the major serial killers here.

This could be considered an opportunity to make clear to the jury (and the public) what exactly are the dangers of hang gliding.

Vile pigfuckers such as Davis and Rooney putting themselves in control of it, doing whatever the fuck they feel like, forcing as many people as possible to do it as well.

And how (relatively) safe it has become over the last thirty years.

The last thirty years at that time moves the clock back to 1975. That's like talking about how much safer ocean travel has become since 1912 when regulations started mandating enough lifeboats to accommodate ALL the passengers and crew and 24/7 radio monitoring. Talk about how much safer it's gotten in the past twenty-five and there isn't really shit to write home about.

Six months is a ridiculously long time to wait for a report for a hang gliding accident.

Six DAYS is a ridiculously long time to wait for a report for a hang gliding "accident". Virtually none of this shit isn't blindingly obvious before the glider hits the ground - particularly on this one.

Can it be that it involves an ultralight, thus changing the parameters of the investigation?

An ultralight that outclimbed the glider, kept outclimbing the glider, and was pulling it with a critically frayed towline?

Davis?

Why are you even acknowledging the existence of that piece of shit?

Michael Bradford - 2005/10/11 21:20:29 UTC

Both aircraft here operate under exemption, and neither qualifies as an ultralight according to the FARs.

And both had Pilots In Command who didn't qualify as Pilots In Command.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Davis Straub - 2005/10/11 21:45:00 UTC

Again, I have received plenty of private email from people involved with Hang Glide Chicago.

Yeah. And we DECENT people in hang gliding can't benefit from ANY of it ('cept you, of course, Davis) all because of those evil Thompson family sonsabitches who wanna know how and why their kid died on an evening training flight in zilch conditions. Fuck them, their extended family, their friends, and anyone on speaking terms with them.

You guarantee a lawyer won't use discovery to find out who wrote what to me?

No, Davis. Sounds like you're already fucked.

You guarantee me they won't take away my hard disk? Do you want to bond your guarantee?

'Course not. The entire contents of your hard disk are as good as splattered all over the Chicago Sun-Times as we speak. So what's the point of you sitting on them now?

One person in the Chicago area took on the responsibility for writing up an accident report. They...

I thought you said it was ONE person.

...were very clear that they did not want speculation in the forums about the accident.

- Yeah, sitting on anything resembling an accident report is a GREAT way to minimize speculation on a double fatality.

- Well, if one person in the Chicago area who took on the responsibility for writing up an accident report was very clear that they did not want speculation in the forums about the accident nobody on any of the forums should be permitted to speculate about the accident. I don't know how much more clear they could be on that.

- WHY doesn't this douchebag want speculation on this one. Are they worried about people getting things wrong or are they worried about people getting things right?

- Name one person in the history of hang gliding who ever got scratched as a consequence of speculation? If Arlan had ever bothered to speculate on what might happen to him if he were pushed out behind a high tug and his rope broke would we be more or less likely to be having this idiot fucking discussion?

I went ahead and published material about it anyway.

You published speculation material about it anyway. Good job. That was very courageous of you.

I hope that he is still writing the accident report.

Don't you mean "they"?

My figure of six months comes from previous experience.

Oh good. With your previous experience you should be able to tell us what all the investigators are doing with those six months minus the first six minutes.

See my discussion of Terry Spencer.

Fuck your discussion of Terry Spencer. That crash had shit to do with anything. There was nothing to be learned and nothing that was or could have been of the least value to anyone.

BTW, you will find a "treasure trove" of accident reports in the Oz Report.

Yeah, with "treasure troves" like yours it's absolutely astounding that anyone is still slightly bowing a downtube. Such advancements we've made.

I would bet the Kolb is a non legal ultralight engaged in a non legal activity, towing hang gliders.

How 'bout the guy who was driving it? Were those fatalities consequences of there having been something wrong with the tug? Sounds to me like it was doing exactly and flawlessly what it was being told to do from uneventful takeoff to uneventful landing.

BTW, what exactly counts as an "answer" for the "family?"

- Why is "family" in quotation marks - the way one would put "pilot" and "journalist" in quotation marks when discussing Davis Dead-On Straub? Isn't that a pretty naked expression of contempt? Not that you haven't been stunningly open on that issue all along.

- How 'bout knowing what incompetence and negligence was in play to get their kid killed and how high up in the chain of command it extended?

One person writing to me privately has stated that I have already provided the answer in the Oz Report, many weeks ago.

Why PRIVATELY and to a piece of shit like you? What needs to be concealed from the rest of us who don't wanna end up the way that tandem did?

Perhaps the "family" should look there if they truly want an aswer.

If these hordes of Davis Show glider jocks are still screaming for solid information how do you expect the "family" to make heads or tails of anything?

When do they know that they've got "the" answer.

2011/05/27 14:30:15 UTC. That's when I wrote them and explained what happened.

What is an "answer" going to look like that will satisfy them?

Basically that we have a bunch of sleazy pieces of shit firmly in control of this sport and we need to get a lot of heads on pikes - hopefully starting with yours.

What if you don't wish to become involved in any legal matters what so ever, whether just testifying or not.

Then you're one of those gutless pieces of shit who infest this sport and I'd happily watch you bleed to death before reaching in my pocket for the cell phone.

Keeping your mouth shut is a good way to avoid entanglement.

A great tactic for cowards the world over since the beginning of time.

Not taking responsibility for writing an accident report is a good way to avoid entanglement.

Good. How much good could an accident report written by a scumbag whose primary concern is avoiding personal entanglement be anyway? I want to read an accident report from someone who'd need to be chained down to stop him from charging into entanglement - not parasitic worms like you and the people with whom you maintain confidential relationships.

And what is paranoid about that?

I dunno. I've never been a parasitic worm before. Perhaps you can elaborate on what makes your ilk tick.

I doubt that there are any direct employees as such at Hang Glide Chicago. I spoke at length with Arlan last year regarding his exposure to law suits. No assests, no law suits.

Great strategy! I would've gone with worrying 24/7 about how I was running my operation and equipping, maintaining, inspecting all the aircraft involved and training all the pilots and ground support people - but that's just me.

Hey Jeremiah's "family"... Which one of us would you want to trust with your kid's life and which one of us would you be less inclined to take legal action against if something bad DID happen?

I guess if you pay the lawyer yourself, then that equation doesn't hold up.

Ya know what else doesn't hold up very well? A glider with a high angle of attack hooked up to a tug with a mandatory Davis Link.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Jeff Nielsen - 2005/10/11 22:01:47 UTC

Whip stall ...

Brian McMahon - 2005/10/11 20:59:20 UTC

My question is: If you are being pulled along at or below stall speed, lose the line and whip stall...

Possible, but in my opinion, unlikely to throw them so far forward that they are caught in front or around the bar. In fact, in a normal tow, I would think that the pilot might go backwards.
Eye witnesses thought that this glider was on it's side in the beginning (wingtip pointing down) - if the airspeed was zero and the glider was on it's side, that in its self is enough to end that flight (my thoughts as well as others)
Normally, when I think of a whip stall, I think of a glider shooting up, loosing airspeed, stalling, then the nose falling ... and the wings staying relatively level. We have all seen pictures of what a whip stall looks like. Now, think of that same whip stall but in this case, add some rotation. At the end, you have a whip stall that not only leaves your nose way high (with little or no airspeed) but also in a stall where one of your wing tips is pointing toward the ground. To me, it's like a whip stall plus ... the plus part being the rotation of the wing. Now when the glider starts falling, it is falling toward it's wing tip and the glider obviously doesn't fly sideways.
To me, this is much more than a stall because the glider may not recover at all, flip on it's back, and/or at best it is going to take a lot of altitude if it does recover.
If this were a classic whip stall where you shoot straight up, the nose falls through and the wings stay fairly level, I believe that they probably would have recovered.

Zack Marzec didn't. You do a severe enough stall you can count on a tumble.

It's one thing to stall. It's another thing to stall and be in a totally incorrect flying position once gravity takes over. In one case, the recover is quick and uneventful while in the other, that glider may not fly again regardless of how much altitude you have.

I'd MUCH rather have a severe stall sideways. No tumble that way. If the reflex bridle, defined tips, sprogs are OK you're eventually gonna start flying - if you've got enough air under you anyway.

Brian McMahon - 2005/10/11 22:04:03 UTC

Like I said before, the family has to be paying for the lawyer, this isn't an ambulance chasing case. The lawyer is being paid by the family for this, I doubt the lawsuit will do more than upset all parties involved unless they discover foul play or some sort of gross negligence; and that seems far-fetched at best.

Have you read the SOPs and FAA aerotowing regulations?

Jeff Shapiro - 2005/10/12 03:58:28 UTC

First of all, Who is "paying for the families lawyer" is nobody's buisness. I can tell you that the lawyer is donating their time and the "family" has NO desire to blame or point the finger at anybody. Especially Arlen!

Have they been reading Davis's comments?

Jeremiah's parents had all the confidence in the world in him to make his own decisions in life and that sometimes those decisions involve risk. They are both experienced risk takers themselves and knew full well that there was risk involved, as did Jeremiah, in learning how to hang glide.

He didn't get killed learning how to hang glide. He got killed because he went to an operation with people who had no fuckin' clue what they were doing - like pretty much all of them.

Pointing fingers will not bring back our friends and family.

It'll help prevent the next guy from being killed the same way.

The lawsuit was suggested as a way (the only way apparently) to be insured a full and complete detailed report on how their only son was killed. Period.

The tug's weak link increased the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.

How dare you, Davis, even pretend to be able to judge his "family" in any way.

Davis just gets his kicks seeing how much totally despicable behavior he can get away with.

Moral standing, my ass. You have no idea what they are thinking or the motives behind their actions!

Yeah he does. Why do you think he's doing as much as possible to denigrate and undermine them?

In fact, you know nothing about them at all, so screw you!

Screw that piece of shit a thousand times over many years ago.

They are trying to do this, to resolve this, in the way that they feel is most appropriate. With a lawsuit filed, the report in full WILL be made available and they will not have to wait for argument or discussion about what actually happened by pilots who were not there or involved.

- Too bad they dropped the lawsuit.
- Pilots who were not there or involved are their best options.

I again will say that this lawsuit has nothing to do with money or blame, only information. Get a grip. I have talked to pilots that know the basic description of what it "looked" like happened that day. I will pass on the info to the family of Jeremiah and hope to bring some resolve and closure.

There's no such thing as closure.

P.S. Next time you want to cite someone for whinning, try not being a whinner.

Way too mild.

Davis Straub - 2005/10/12 04:18:40 UTC

Oh Gosh, I'm so sorry, I just didn't realize how noble the family was. If only I had known that it was necessary to file a law suit to get people to act like good citizens, I would have started filing them a long time ago. Thanks for setting me straight on that.

Too bad nobody drowned you at birth.

Davis Straub - 2005/10/12 05:08:45 UTC

Let us say that I continue to be completely outraged that any member of the hang gliding community is supporting this law suit.

No members of the hang gliding "community" are supporting the lawsuit. The hang gliding community is a sleazy inbred cult. And I'm REALLY proud to not be a part of it.

First of all, Who is "paying for the families lawyer" is nobody's buisness.

Yes, it is actually. It is very unlikely that the law suit is done on contingency as there are little to no assets to get value from. As I wrote earlier Arlan and I had a long talk about this, and there is nothing there.

Well stated, Davis. And the fact that Arlan would've engaged with you in a long talk is even more evidence that there was nothing there.

I won't go into why this is the case.

Why not? What else is there that needs hiding?

I can tell you that the lawyer is donating their time and the "family" has NO desire to blame or point the finger at anybody. Especially Arlen!

There is no need to file a lawsuit then. You can hire a lawyer and have the lawyer send letters and ask questions.

And they can - and WILL - tell you to go fuck yourself.

There is no need to file a lawsuit.

There is a deep need for a great many people to go to prison for very long stretches.

Now for the killer sentence:

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

The lawsuit was suggested as a way (the only way apparently) to be insured a full and complete detailed report on how their only son was killed. Period.

How is a lawsuit going to insure this?

It won't. You need successful and vigorous criminal prosecution.

A lawsuit against Arlan's estate? You expect a Kolb to write the report?

Why not? They don't come from a culture in which power failures are good things and stalls are inconveniences.

How is a law suit against an estate going to force a complete and detailed report? How do you know if it is "complete?"

When they're so thorough as to specify that a Davis Link pro toad victim who died after tumbling to the runway but was conscious after impact wasn't wearing a full face helmet.

Who are you going to threaten that they have to write such a report and how does suing an estate do this?

Who cares? Nothing else anybody does ever gets any satisfactory results. What have we got to lose?

How is a law suit going to get any volunteer to write a complete and detailed report?

Like the total rot we got from Joe Gregor on the Mike Haas fatality?

This makes no sense at all.

But forcing everybody to fly on the same fishing line that blows six times in a row in light morning conditions DOES?

How dare you, Davis, even pretend to be able to judge his "family" in any way.

It's real easy. I judge their actions not themselves. I see their actions and their actions speak for themselves.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=592
Linknife

Davis Straub - 2010/04/03 12:46:26 UTC

Tad is gone.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Davis Straub - 2011/02/07 19:21:29 UTC

Okay, enough. On to new threads.

They are trying to do this, to resolve this, in the way that they feel is most appropriate.

Well, they blew that one.

Yeah. Did you see how much how good the reporting was on the Terry Mason fatality when nobody filed any lawsuits!

With a lawsuit filed, the report in full WILL be made available and they will not have to wait for argument or discussion about what actually happened by pilots who were not there or involved.

Ah, exactly how does a law suit against an estate manage to do that? Please explain your logic here. Last time I checked the volunteer who was writing up the report wasn't being sued. Are you saying he is? Is the USHGA being sued?

It sure as hell should've been. I hope I live long enough to see something catastrophic happen to that organization. There's gotta be some point at which all that sleaziness will implode.

I have talked to pilots that know the basic description of what it "looked" like happened that day. I will pass on the info to the family of Jeremiah and hope to bring some resolve and closure.

And that isn't a "good" enough answer for them?

It wouldn't be for me. I'd wanna see people held accountable.

Either you're nuts...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25015
Zippy pounds in

Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC

Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.

...or not only does this smell, it stinks.

How would you POSSIBLY be able to tell if something stank?

They didn't blow that one - even if the lawsuit produced no direct results and was dropped. It got people TALKING and NOT TALKING. And you can ALWAYS decode what actually happened based on what is and isn't being said and who is and isn't saying it. The fact that the tug driver has been as dead silent on this one as Arlan has screams VOLUMES.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Brian McMahon - 2005/10/12 05:25:48 UTC

I have to agree with Davis on this...

I'm freakin' amazed that anybody will touch that motherfucker with a ten foot pole at this point.

...to the degree that the knee-jerk reaction of the parents was to file a law suit before any wrong-doing (of any kind) has been established or even postulated by anyone that was witness to the accident or involved somehow.

Their kid gets killed, they wait for OVER A *MONTH* and hear *NOTHING* from USHGA - which certified the operator and interfaces with the FAA to oversee the aerotowing and tandem exemptions - or the hang gliding "community" before filing a lawsuit and that's a "knee jerk reaction" motherfucker?

Did you see how long it took for USHGA to and the hang gliding "community" to mobilize against T** at K*** S****** when he posted a draft of a letter to the FAA trying to get the blatantly illegal bullshit that killed their kid STOPPED?

The instructor and student were killed in a tragic accident.

Bull fucking shit.

If an investigation revealed that there was foul play or the parents believed the investigation was seriously flawed or conducted by corrupt people, then by all means file law suits against all parties involved.

The facts that after a month no substantive information had been released or advisories circulated and people were sitting on the information they had was overwhelming evidence that there WAS foul play, the "investigation" was virtually nonexistent and WAS being conducted by corrupt people. And read some post-Hildreth fatality reports in the magazine if you believe otherwise.

Otherwise, the idea that filing a law suit will accomplish anything but casting fear into the local flying community is absurd.

Casting fear into the local or any other flying community is a BAD thing? Please tell me what it is that they would have to be afraid of? Obviously not dying the way Jeremiah and Arlan did with nobody doing anything wrong.

Not meaning to sound too judgemental of the parents in light of their loss, but it's hard to have respect for a lawsuit filed this quickly after an accident against the estate of someone who also died in the accident.

- After over a MONTH of hearing NOTHING.

- Nobody's done anything wrong, tandem aerotow instructor and advanced tandem student on the glider, zilch evening conditions, two people killed instantly. And the hang gliding community is scared shitless not of dying the same way but because a family filed a lawsuit against the perpetrators to find out what happened.

- Fuck you, dude.

They may just want information, but "unspecified damages" as was reported in the Sun Times, sounds like a money grab to me.

So? They spent a lot of money producing a highly talented and valuable individual. Does Hang Glide Chicago get to charge him for lessons on how to safely fly hang gliders, snuff him, and not even get assessed a "Sorry 'bout that, folks."?

Jeff Nielsen - 2005/10/12 14:51:58 UTC

Just where was the family supposed to go to find answers?

How 'bout Wallaby?

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

Welcome to Wallaby Ranch, the first and largest Aerotow Hang Gliding Flight Park in the World! We're the aerotowing (or "AT") professionals; no-one knows AT like we do; it's all we do, and we do it everyday, year-round. This primer will teach you the basics of AT theory and technique. Our instructors have fine-tuned this system over the course of many years, while teaching thousands of people how to aerotow hang gliders. Careful study of this material will make your transition to AT faster, easier, less expensive, and safer. When done properly, AT is your gateway to longer, higher, hassle-free flights, and more airtime with less effort than ever before.

Or Quest?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC

Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years.

Lockout Mountain Flight Park?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20756
How is Zach Etheridge doing?

Bob Flynn - 2011/02/04 11:26:34 UTC

Lookout keeps this kind of stuff under their hat. You never hear of accidents there. But every time I go there, I hear about quite a few. Blown launches, tree landings, etc.

Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC

(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit.

The excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden?

Dr. Trisa Tilletti?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7067
AT SOPs - proposed revisions

Subj: Re: [Tow] AT SOPs - proposed revisions
Date: 2009/05/10 02:08:52 UTC
From: cloud9sa@aol.com
To: skysailingtowing@yahoogroups.com
cc: GreggLudwig@aol.com, lisa@lisatateglass.com

Hi Tad.

I'm Tracy Tillman, on the USHPA BOD, on the Tow Committe, and I am an Aviation Safety Counselor on the FAA Safety Team (FAAST) for the Detroit FSDO area. As a rep of both the USHPA and FAA, I would like to help you, USHPA, and the FAA improve safety in flying, towing, and hang gliding.

The FAA gets a lot of letters of complaint from a lot of yahoos. For best effect, I suggest that you describe in your letter (and also post to the skysailingtowing group and share with the USHPA Tow Committee) your areas of expertise (if any) related to this issue, and list your qualifiications, logged hours, and currency in certain categories, such as:

1. hang glider pilot rating and logged hours
2. hang glider aerotow rating, logged hours, and logged number of tows
3. hang glider tug pilot rating, logged hours towing, and logged number of tows
4. hang glider aerotow administrator appointment date
5. hang glider aerotow supervisor appointment date
6. hang glider tanderm instructor rating, logged hours of aerotow tandem instruction, and logged number of instructional flights
7. airplane pilot license ratings and logged number of hours
8. airplane tow pilot endorsement date, logged number of hours towing with airplane, logged number of tows
9. sailplane tow pilot license ratings, logged number of hours, logged number of tows.
10. sailplane instructor license date, logged number of hours of instruction, logged number of instructional tows
11. any other flying or engineering-related credentials that you may have as evidence of your competence to make these claims.

Wills Wing?

http://www.willswing.com/articles/ArticleList.asp#AerotowRelease
Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders

Always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.

Where are all these fucking geniuses and experts with thousands of years of collective experience whenever things don't come off quite as well as advertised?

...(this is a rhetorical question, Davis)

DAMN! I wish you'd said that up front so's I wouldn't have wasted all that time and effort with my suggestions.

Heck, I have been doing hanggliding for 15 years and consider myself a little on the "inside" for this accident and I couldn't find answers either.

You would have if it hadn't been for the knee-jerk reaction of the parents filing a lawsuit before any wrongdoing (of any kind) had been established or even postulated by anyone who was a witness to the accident or involved somehow.

No one wanted to talk about it ... "respect for the dead"...

And, of course, their "families". It's the unwritten code of hang gliding not to discuss fatal crashes because this is disrespectful and will cause undue anguish to grieving "family" members. (And, of course, the vile rot that Davis is pulling isn't and won't.)

...and "wait until the report is done" and several other statements like this are what come through when you ask.

Decade after decade after decade.

"Too bad," right Davis? You don't care. I got that so you don't have to repeat it.

This is the point that I have been trying to make. Since there is "no process" and the only way to find out a few details is to go on some web forum that may or may not be a pile of crap...

They're ALL total piles of crap now.

...(that's not a jab by the way, Davis)

Bloody well should've been.

My understanding is that the family HAVE been trying to find out information. Friends of the family have been trying to find out information. Others have been trying to find information for them. And yes, they are ONLY interested in what happened ... not a detailed analysis, not the status of every wire and bolt, just an idea of what the hell happened! They knew nothing. They still know nothing and it's weeks later. They don't know to log on to the OZ forum to find information.

That's one thing they have going for them.

Before Davis accuses be of entitlement let me say that while we don't "owe" the family anything, the chances are that if we don't provide them with information, something like a suit is more likely to happen.

Duh.

No one wants to give up any information and then is surprised when the family sues for information? Is this a difficult concept?

For a sociopath like Davis? Yes.

We have the perfect come back don't we ... "it's all about money."

Don't forget "knee-jerk reaction".

Do I think it sucks that the family has brought suit? Yes.

Why?

Do I understand it. Yes. Do I think we could have prevented it? In this case I think it may have helped and perhaps been prevented.

No brainer.

In most other cases, I doubt that it would help.

What "most other cases" are you talking about? Do you have any clue just how outrageous things hafta be to trigger something like this?

HOWEVER in my opinion, getting information to the family should have nothing to do with preventing a law suit, I maintain that it's just the right thing to do.

In other words, the precise opposite of what hang gliding culture always does.

The idea is to follow the golden rule here ...

He who has the gold...

...treat others like you would want to be treated.

Oh. That one.

(And screw you if you think this is corny)

Screw him no matter what. Screw him if he makes us all use even safer fishing line than he's making us use now.

Who should be talking to the family? People like me ... a total stranger. Yep, I should have called a long time ago.

This is a strange case where one person WAS the entire Hang Glide Chicago. There were no employees or other owners who could step up and talk to the family. Like Davis said, this was Arlan's job ... or the next person below him - and there is NO such person in this case.

Well, Gary Solomon. But he can't say anything because he was flying totally dangerously and illegally on totally dangerous and illegal equipment.

It should have been me or any others of us that care.

My sincere apologies.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Brian McMahon - 2005/10/12 15:28:42 UTC

Why don't they hire their own investigator(s) to...

...do USHGA's job for it.

...examine the glider...

To find out what? Why it stalled and dove 250 feet when we have reports of perfectly airworthy tandems stalling and diving 300 feet in similar circumstances?

...and interview the witnesses?

Why should they have to? We're supposed to be and are always advertising ourselves as a "self regulated" sport. That's SELF regulated - not UN regulated. Why don't we make it mandatory for witnesses to provide accurate accounts and have severe penalties for withholding and/or misrepresenting information. I went to a private school that had an honor code set up like that. It was frighteningly effective.

I doubt anyone would try to stand in their way (other than some FAA or NTSB officials if they were involved).

Yeah, I can tell ya that at least the FAA is pretty hostile to solid information getting out.

Maybe they already did contact the USHGA for some advice or help, but that would have been a good place to start.

Yeah, right.

I don't see how filing a lawsuit against the estate of someone who also died in the accident is going to get them information about what happened. Where is the logic in it?

Do you see the logic in putting a piece of fishing line at the front end of the towline which always breaks at the worst possible time, when the glider's climbing hard in a near stall situation?

Davis Straub - 2005/10/11 21:45:00 UTC

I spoke at length with Arlan last year regarding his exposure to law suits. No assests, no law suits.

Go after the someone who also died in the "accident"? An attitude like that is plenty justification enough.

Davis Straub - 2005/10/12 15:42:42 UTC

Of course I can understand jpnielsen wants to find out what the story is and can't get an answer. A review of my reports re Terry Spencer in the Oz Report (as well as flames against those reports here in the forum) will show that I have run into this attitude also.

That's really sad. If fellow obstructionists can't get along with each other then what hope is there for the rest of us?

My job as a reporter...

Is a fuckin' joke. You're job is as an advertiser, promoter, saboteur.

...is to get to the bottom of the story and...

Make sure nobody else does.

...report it. As I pointed out previously I did publish material that the person writing the report did not want published, and I published it knowing that.

Well whatever it was it must've been a real smoking gun.

But unlike jpnielsen I did find people to report on what they knew about the accident and I'm sure that with a little time and effort he and the "family" could also have found and talked to those people.

Make some deals, suck a few dicks...

I didn't have to file a lawsuit to find answers to my questions.

And name ONE PERSON who's safer or in any way better off for your efforts.

We know at this point, across the board, without disagreement that the catalyst for this fatal whipstall was a good ol' fashion rope break. Yet you and your fellow douchebags are gonna continue mandating that everyone under your control continue flying with ropes frayed down below legal minimums.

There is in fact a process. It is a loose process because it requires volunteers...

USHGA approved volunteers like idiot fucking Joe Gregor. Volunteers committed to only publishing useless misleading crap. Somebody point me to a notice in the magazine archives calling for good volunteers to act as Accident Review Committee Chairmen and deputies.

...but there is a process and it was in place immediately.

We could tell. We were totally overwhelmed by the volume and detail of the preliminary reports.

By the way, why not go to a web forum? And the Oz Report was available also. What makes these places suspect?

You, Jack, Peter, Bob, Greblo, all the shits running club forums and promoting friendly welcoming communities, the brain dead sycophants infesting them.

Well, because it is only speculation. No one has the "answer" at the time you went there, and may not now.

The "answer" was known before the glider hit the ground. The problem is that no one in the hierarchy wants to admit what it is - that Saint Donnell of Kingsville was and is totally full of shit.

What is very unclear to me is your expectation.

That our weak links will break as early as possible in lockout situations, but will be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence?

What constitutes an "answer?" Something from the NTSB? Something from the FAA? Something from a judge? Something from the official USHGA accident review person, who is actually an official accident review person in "real life?"

Something in the way of common sense from a fuckin' ten year old kid? The tug outclimbed the glider, the glider tried to climb into position behind the tug, the rope broke at the worst possible time, when the glider was climbing hard in a near stall situation?

I have asked this question repeatedly, but received no "answer." How does filing a law suit provide anyone with any answers any quicker than they would normally be getting them?

What's the difference between lawsuit never and no lawsuit never?

There are plenty of answers here on the Oz Report forum. I have provided numerous answers in the Oz Report. I did a whole series of articles on the issues of the over/under harness. Just what is an answer?

Anything that was becoming blindly obvious just before you locked the thread down.

Yes, I do not owe the family anything. None of us owe the family anything.

Speak for yourself, pigfucker. *I* owe the family something. If I see a ten foot Bull Shark cruising the beach I owe it to the belly-boarders along that stretch to advise them that they might wanna consider working on sand castles for the next hour or two. But that's just me, I guess.

Even from a purely selfish motivation I owe the family an explanation of what got their kid killed 'cause addressing that problem will:
- help eliminate the possibility of my getting towed up on a Davis mandated frayed rope
- result in a larger population of aerotowers which will reduce my costs and increase my flying opportunities
- stem the appalling rate of IQ decline in a sport I love
- get pigfuckers like you and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney ostracized out of the sport

Arlan was the responsible party and he is dead.

Arlan was certified as a tug driver and tandem aerotow instructor by USHGA douchebags like Dr. Trisa Tilletti and they're not.

Anyone can take on the responsibility and one volunteer has, but they do not owe anyone anything. They make the decision about what they are going to do.

Fuck that. USHGA could scrap its piece of crap magazine to the disappointment of NO ONE tomorrow and divert those funds to hiring a full time competent investigator. But that's not what they wanna do. They wanna retain a full time competent attorney to make sure every effort at reform gets shot down before it clears the runway.

...the chances are that if we don't provide them with information, something like a suit is more likely to happen.

Who exactly is "we?"

Eliminating "you" from that category is a no brainer.

They are suing Arlan's estate. Is that the we we are talking about?

Sure. That's what any responsible family in a situation like this would do.

Who should answer the call when "we" are called?

Non pigfucker types.

The USHGA has a process for accident reports.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting

Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/30 23:21:56 UTC

Here's how it really works:

- Member submits an accident report. Could be the pilot who had the accident, or some other witness.

- Accident report is sent to Tim to maintain legal privilege. Tim reviews the report and determines whether there's significant legal risk associated with it. He may redact certain parts (personally identifiable information, etc.) if in his opinion exposure of that information poses a risk to us. If the report is very risky, he may decide that it can't be shared further, and will notify the ED about it. He may also notify our insurers if he sees a potential for a claim, as is normal practice for any incident where we are aware of such a potential.

- Redacted report goes to the accident review chairs, for incorporation into periodic articles in the magazine. Articles focus on root causes of accidents, not on personal narratives or details.

The whole procedure is outlined in SOP 03-16, which you can read by logging into the USHPA website and clicking on "Policy Manual".

I gave you the email address for Joe Gregor.

Fuck him.

You can contact him.

YOU can contact him. I'm not wasting anytime talking to a "Safety" Committee Chairman who flies with a Wallaby Release, bent pin backups, and a Davis Link pitch and lockout protector.

I gave you the emal address for the local volunteer who is doing the accident report, you can contact him.

And if you're very very nice and very very lucky you might be able to get some of the information he's hiding from everyone else.

No one wants to give up any information...

Not true. I have published plenty of information and others have written into here. Does this constituted no information?

No, just no information that's going to make the slightest difference.

What do you define as information?

Anything that isn't official.

What makes it official?

Anything that won't address any actual problems.

...treat others like you would want to be treated.

Let's see, you sue me, so I sue you?

Don't kill our kid and quash the investigation and we won't kill your kid - or, in the absence of an appropriate kid, you - and quash the investigation.

Who should be talking to the family?

Who do you suggest?

Mostly people who aren't you or on speaking terms with you.

Should the USHGA hire a grief counseler?

Either twenty grief counselors or one sane standards enforcer.

Maybe we should make this one of the job qualifications of the Executive Director. (BTW, she would in fact do it, as unlike me, she actually has feelings.)

And I'll bet she's got opinions too. Should be perfect.

It should have been me or any others of us that care.

Exactly. It should be you and those who care. Who better?

Let's throw in a really despicable semiliterate sociopathic frayed towline enforcer to balance things out a bit.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/12 16:47:25 UTC

Arlans accident

The problem is that everyone is trying to find out what happened in a place where nobody was except for the 2 people that are now gone. As far as I know there were 3 witnesses, myself and 2 others, which all say the same thing. Jeremiah behind the controls from the start. They take off, get low on the tug weeklink breaks from the tow plane, one wing stalls out, glider rotates to an almost straight down attitude, picks up speed and impacts.

Based on that information it's my personal opinion that the weaklink broke because of the increased pressure on the line from being low, and taking the power away from a glider that is pretty much stalled caused the lack of control, and the wing to drop. It seems to me that it was simply pilot error which lead to the weaklink breaking. Afterall, if the weaklink didn't break they still would have been flying.

That's it. Unfortunately even this we will never know for a %100 certainty because none of us where in the glider.

Does anyone have a way to get in touch with Jeremiahs family?

The problem is that everyone is trying to find out what happened in a place where nobody was except for the 2 people that are now gone.

There was a tug driver by the name of Gary Solomon about 250 feet in front of them.

- There was NOT a fake invisible dust devil to blame things on this time so he knew EXACTLY what the air was doing.

- He was either watching the glider in the mirror virtually the whole flight and would be able to give us a full account or, almost certainly, he wasn't until it was too late. But we don't need that testimony because there's no dispute about the relative heights of the planes.

- He knew exactly what he was feeling in the way of towline tension and tug handling. We know that that there was nothing going on in the way of a control problem with the tug - particularly one that would've incentivized him to blow the release.

As far as I know there were 3 witnesses, myself and 2 others...

On the ground. One more in the air near where the glider was. Notice how much value Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney places...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

You're the one advocating change here, not me.
I'm fine.

These are only questions if you're advocating change. Which I'm not. You are.

You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.

...on the value of the tug driver as an expert witness.

...which all say the same thing.

GOOD. And they're conspicuously not being contradicted by Gary on any point or detail.

...Jeremiah behind the controls from the start.

What does that mean? That he was lagging on what he should've been doing?

We have zero in the way of reporting that the glider was ever out of position laterally - which is what people who can't fly worth shit tend to have major issues with and what people who CAN fly worth shit can really get clobbered by.

They take off, get low on the tug...

Yes. THEY (plural) take off and THEY (plural) "get low on the tug".

Arlan is at least certified as a tandem aerotow instructor and tug pilot. We know that Gary ISN'T certified as a tug pilot and we can tell by the absence of his testimony that he's got major shit to hide.

So are you saying that Jeremiah was responsible for being low? Arlan wasn't telling him to get up into position or making the necessary input to assist him?

NOBODY sucks on staying level with the tug because of a skill issue. They couldn't get up to the tug because they didn't have the speed to get up to the tug. They didn't have the speed because the tug outclimbed them and just stayed high.

This shit had NOTHING to do with Jeremiah's deficient piloting skills.

...weeklink breaks from the tow plane...

- Was it supposed to? Don't both the USHGA SOPs and FAA aerotow regulations specify that the front end weak link be heavier?

- Thank God! That was a dangerous situation and now the safety of the towing operation has been increased! PERIOD! And now we just have a bit of inconvenience do deal with.

...one wing stalls out, glider rotates to an almost straight down attitude, picks up speed and impacts.

So you've got three witnesses, yourself and two others, who all say the same thing (and an illegal tug driver who's really keeping his mouth shut and profile low) - the glider was flyable and under survivable control until the illegal weak link blew. Then it had no chance of survival whatsoever.

Based on that information it's my personal opinion that the weaklink broke because of the increased pressure on the line from being low, and taking the power away from a glider that is pretty much stalled caused the lack of control, and the wing to drop.

Based on that information it's my personal opinion that the weaklink broke because of the precise opposite on the line from the tug being high, that the glider was literally risking and losing its life at the end to get into position, that, given that, it's fuckin' moronic to think if any time during the tow there was a possibility of them catching up to the tug.

...and taking the power away from a glider that is pretty much stalled caused the lack of control, and the wing to drop.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC

Your tandem incident was some guy trying to drag himself out of a low lockout instead of accepting the fact that he was too far out of position and hitting the damn release, pulling the nose in and flying away.

http://www.kitestrings.org/post155.html#p155

Jim Rooney - 2011/09

This is a good description of a low lockout.

It's a very dangerous situation, and make no mistake, if the line had held, it would not only be a dangerous situation for the glider, but also the tug. Gliders do not react well to being on tow and not flying... adding power to the situation (pushing out and the tug pushing over) only makes things worse... it gets very violent, very fast. I'll dump the rope long before that.

It seems to me that it was simply pilot error which lead to the weaklink breaking.

But, of course, not the TUG pilot. There was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING *HE* could've done to reduce the PRESSURE in that system and get the glider's airspeed up on tow. Those tugs have preset climb paths from which they're not permitted to deviate.

Afterall, if the weaklink didn't break they still would have been flying.

That's it. Unfortunately even this we will never know for a %100 certainty because none of us where in the glider.

And that's the ONLY WAY one can attain a one hundred percent certainty about anything that happens with a glider. You must've been flying it. None of us really has a solid idea of what went wrong with this launch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuSHh0nmKkQ

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3900/14557433291_0d22597fd6_o.png


because none of us were under the glider at the time. So basically anything a witness reports is to some extent speculation. And anyone who speculates about anything to any extent is the vilest kind of scum.

Conversely, of course, anyone who IS under a glider in any kind of incident tells us anything it goes without saying that he's 100.000 percent right. If Mel Torres tells us he almost ripped both of his arms off because his flare timing was off...

41-45813
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5159/14264367601_5bd182d16c_o.png

42-45822
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2924/14287862033_13244c8362_o.png

43-45823
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3694/14081126537_8b2dae3d16_o.png

44-45824
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3745/14265581922_27231db96a_o.png

45-45825
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3761/14287859283_7da95ffb91_o.png

46-45901
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2937/14081080220_373f64f01d_o.png


...who are we to argue a fraction of a percent to the contrary?

Does anyone have a way to get in touch with Jeremiahs family?

Once you find out his middle name was "Kaiwiki" it gets a lot easier.

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/12 17:01:54 UTC

Maybe all that Jeremiahs family is looking for is, based on the events that were witnessed leading up to the crash, what is the most logical explanation for how this could have happened.

That was a start, maybe enough to have prevented the lawsuit, but it's misleading and inaccurate.

It dumps virtually ALL of the blame on Jeremiah, an unsoloed STUDENT doing EXACTLY what he was trained and told to by his Hang Four, Advanced Tandem Aerotow Instructor, Aerotow Administrator Pilot In Command and NONE of it where it BELONGS.

The glider model, which no one's bothered to mention was a North Wing T2 - max certified operating weight 518 pounds. The MINIMUM legal weak link for the glider end is 414 pounds towline while it's a no brainer that what was actually being used was a double loop of 130 pound Greenspot "standard tandem aerotow weak link" which would've put it at 348 or 66 pounds / 16 percent shy of legal.

A SAFE and legal weak link for that glider would've been 1.5 times max certified or 777 pounds or nearly two and a quarter times the crap they were using.

Let's be GENEROUS and say that the front end weak link - which, we are now in total agreement, killed that glider - was the same double loop on the back end such that it would've been a coin toss which end blew first 'cause I don't know when douchebag Dragonfly culture decided they needed a tow mast breakaway protector and dumbed it down to three strand, a presumed 25 percent reduction.

- FAA aerotow regulations - in effect then and now - MANDATE the front end weak link be HEAVIER - not to exceed 25 percent heavier.

- At the time of the crash USHGA aerotow equipment requirements specified a front end weak link over the glider's by approximately one hundred pounds.

So the villains here were:
- flight park operator Arlan Birkett who:
-- violated the crap out of all weak links regulations, requirements, guidelines, common sense configurations you can name
-- employed an uncertified, unqualified, incompetent, negligent, irresponsible tug driver
-- had recently towed a highly experienced Hang Four and qualified aerotow pilot to his death
-- failed to maintain his tandem training glider in safe airworthy condition
-- equipped his and towed other gliders with illegal total crap releases
- uncertified, unqualified, incompetent, negligent, irresponsible tug driver Gary Solomon who:
-- violated the crap out of all weak links regulations, requirements, guidelines, common sense configurations you can name
-- was totally oblivious to the fact that he had a tandem glider hanging by a very tenuous and totally illegal thread behind him
-- remained as silent as Arlan about the incident following the impact
- hang gliding aerotow instructor Arlan Birkett who very obviously taught his students NOTHING about:
-- weak links - their purpose, legal requirements, actual strengths, safe values, danger of low values
-- dangers facing towed hang gliders
- Pilot In Command Arlan Birkett who allowed his glider - with his student on it - to progress into a lethally compromised attitude

THAT's pretty much the whole story and truth and THAT's what the family wanted and deserved to hear - not that there surfer, US Ski Team, mathematics master kid was too much of a stupid klutz to fly a tandem training glider out of a field without killing himself and his dedicated, selfless, highly professional flight instructor.

P.S.

Jeremiah behind the controls from the start. They take off, get low on the tug weeklink breaks from the tow plane, one wing stalls out, glider rotates to an almost straight down attitude, picks up speed and impacts.

Notice the way Arlan's family hasn't filed a lawsuit against Jeremiah's estate?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Brian McMahon - 2005/10/12 17:20:58 UTC

Did you give a statement to the police or someone investigating the accident? I would assume that the family would have received at least as much info as you related.

Jeremiah assumed Arlan knew what the fuck he was doing and talking about. Look where it got him.

Jeff Nielsen - 2005/10/12 18:03:40 UTC

Davis Straub - 2005/10/12 15:42:42 UTC

There is in fact a process. It is a loose process because it requires volunteers, but there is a process and it was in place immediately.

Well, make up your mind, is there a process or isn't there? I can quote you from before if you would like saying there is no process. Which is it now?

Whichever's most convenient at any given moment. Davis and his ilk...

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 23:18:54 UTC

Naw... You want me to make bold black and white statements so that you can have a go.
Unfortunately that's not what you're getting.
Some people listen with the intent of understanding.

Others do so with the intent of responding.

...for their entire speaking lives practice not making definitive statements on anything of substance. That way it doesn't matter who's in control of the turf - Hitler, Stalin, the Americans - at any given moment. His ass is covered no matter what.

By the way, why not go to a web forum? And the Oz Report was available also. What makes these places suspect?

Man, you need to get out a little to see what is out there. Are you kidding me?

No. Get them on the forum. Make sure they see Davis's comments.

I have asked this question repeatedly, but received no "answer." How does filing a law suit provide anyone with any answers any quicker than they would normally be getting them?

I am not arguing about the law suit and whether it was right or wrong. In fact, I said that I don't agree with it. I did say, however, that I understand why it may have happened. I am not sure who you think you are arguing with ... do you know? It's not me.

There are plenty of answers here on the Oz Report forum. I have provided numerous answers in the Oz Report. I did a whole series of articles on the issues of the over/under harness.

This is fluff.

Fluffy diversionary crap.

Two people are dead and no details are released and you pick up the first story you can find as if it's anything close to the an answer. While over/under debates are very important, it was at best a side to what was really the issue.

Yeah, that's a favorite tactic of Davis's. Whenever someone - like John Claytor for instance - slams in stuck on aerotow on the kind of bent pin shit Davis and his buddies try to pass off as releases he talks about all the wonderful articles he's published on Russian bite controlled releases while continuing to make sure neither they nor anything like them make it into circulation outside of where they're already established.

Yes, I do not owe the family anything. None of us owe the family anything. Arlan was the responsible party and he is dead. Anyone can take on the responsibility and one volunteer has, but they do not owe anyone anything. They make the decision about what they are going to do.

And you see no problems or weaknesses in the process?

Of course he sees them. He's one of their main architects.

Who exactly is "we?" They are suing Arlan's estate. Is that the we we are talking about? Who should answer the call when "we" are called?

You can see how this suit might affect you? Please.

Well, one thing for sure Davis, it won't be you. You have made that clear because "you don't care" and below that you admit that you have no feelings. Your words, not mine. In fact, if you don't care, let someone else talk who does and maybe "we", the people who care, can figure out a way to help others in cases like this.

How 'bout by making sure bullshit like this doesn't happen? Start with nonstop 24/7 appropriately vicious attacks on Davis, the scum aligned with him, and the scum who tolerate him.

Just that fact that other pilots can see what happened in this case might just help others in another tragedy think, "Hey, we care if the family is informed, why doesn't one of us give them a call."

We RARELY kill a new student like this - usually just break an arm or two. Damn near all the time it's a somebody who:
- has been in the sport a while
- is much less of an innocent victim
- isn't the focal point of a massive Industry cover-up of off-the-scale negligence and illegal conduct
- has had family involved to the extent of participating on outings where they get to know some of the community and scene

This one was a perfect storm that we've never seen the likes of before and aren't likely to see again.

The USHGA has a process for accident reports. I gave you the email address for Joe Gregor. You can contact him. I gave you the emal address for the local volunteer who is doing the accident report, you can contact him.

Can you just stop with the reporter BS for a minute?

And replace it with WHAT? That's all he's got.

It's nauseating after a while.

It's nauseating from Square One.

While I am a man of science and well educated...

How 'bout doing a bit more proofreading and running spellchecks before you post? I'm having to fix WAY too much stupid shit on this to put you in the best light.

...sometimes you just have to get in touch with your feelings as well as other's people feelings too.

Like that one.

Lower your guard a minute and try it.

You're talking to a total sociopath. Total contempt for everyone who isn't another total sociopath ARE his feelings.

I promise you can go right back to being yourself.

He doesn't need any reassurance like that from anybody.

Not true. I have published plenty of information and others have written into here.

Very little specifics have been discussed. I challenge you to show me specifics about the accident that weren't discussed in the last two weeks ... not stuff on over/under harness, specifics and an explanation of those specifics. For instance, you stated in the beginning that that the glider was not to blame. While that is a very important piece, I don't know if that is your opinion, or it's fact, or if someone else said that, or if the investigators said that ... etc. That knowledge is shaking until you put some meat behind it. I have no idea what to make of that information.

Which, of course, is Davis's intent.

Does this constituted no information? What do you define as information? What makes it official?

Ask yourself what you would want to know if you were the family.

What part of:

I don't care that there are no "good" answers for the "family."

are you having so much trouble understanding?

Perhaps you aren't used to talking with families who have lost love ones, but I bet you could come very close.

After deliberately setting up the conditions for getting the loved ones killed in the first place?

Let's see, you sue me, so I sue you?

No. "You don't care and won't give me information, then fine, I will find it another way ... and you probably won't like it."

The less Davis likes something the more I do.

Who do you suggest?

ANY OF US pilots, including you.

I agree. The more people we have - in and/or not in the sport - infuriated with Davis the better.

You can't imagine what a call from you might have made for that family.

I can.

To them, it makes all the difference in the world. In this case and you may have missed it, but we had someone who was close to the family and could talk to them. The answer that YOU gave to him was "a report is pending." (paraphrased)

And wait until you see the report. (Transcribed and posted.)

Should the USHGA hire a grief counseler? Maybe we should make this one of the job qualifications of the Executive Director. (BTW, she would in fact do it, as unlike me, she actually has feelings.)

Not a bad idea. I would feel pretty good about our organization if the this were to happen.

Sorry. I'd get more sickened with it than I am now. An aviation organization should be putting one hundred percent of available resources into minimizing the need for grief counselors, first responders, CPR training.

Now you are thinking, Davis.

Davis is ALWAYS thinking. Mostly about better ways to fuck over decent people.

Exactly. It should be you and those who care. Who better?

I agree.

And it should also be about making the lives of the parasites in this sport who DON'T care as miserable as possible.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Jeff Nielsen - 2005/10/12 18:16:42 UTC

Arlans accident

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/12 16:47:25 UTC

Does anyone have a way to get in touch with Jeremiahs family?

Yes, that is finally happening. Thanks for asking. You obvious care too.

How 'bout caring enough to proofread twelve word plus one smiley posts?

Jeff Nielsen - 2005/10/12 18:17:22 UTC

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/12 17:01:54 UTC

Maybe all that Jeremiahs family is looking for is, based on the events that were witnessed leading up to the crash, what is the most logical explanation for how this could have happened.

AMEN !!!!!

OK, we've broken the care barrier. Any chance we can get to work on the fix issue now?

Davis Straub - 2005/10/12 18:20:49 UTC

Unbelievable.

Still no answer to what constitutes an answer in jpnielsen's mind or the even more ephemeral "family." It appears that really an answer is not what is actually wanted, but a shoulder to cry on.

Fine, jpnielsen seems up the task. Go for it. Represent "we."

Fuck off, Davis.

Jeff Nielsen - 2005/10/12 18:20:54 UTC

Brian McMahon - 2005/10/12 17:20:58 UTC

I would assume that the family would have received at least as much info as you related.

You know what they say about "assume ing" anything.

2-112
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7600/28811055456_925c8abb66_o.png


Yep.

And, I am sorry to say that your assumption would be incorrect.

Davis Straub - 2005/10/12 18:34:30 UTC

BTW, not only don't I not have any feelings, I beat my dog, or at least I would if I had a dog.

Fuck off, Davis.

Jeff Nielsen - 2005/10/12 19:21:19 UTC

I knew it !!

JBBenson - 2005/10/12 19:39:09 UTC

Davis Straub: 58 going on 13

I like to think of thirteen year olds as not having had enough time to become that vile. But in Davis's case...

Davis Straub - 2005/10/12 19:44:42 UTC

Awfully generous of you.

Fuck off, Davis.

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/12 20:17:29 UTC

Arlans accident

Just so you guys know, when I was at Arlan's wake almost everybody came up to me and asked me about Jeremiah, and how we can get in touch with his family, maybe get an address so flowers can be sent. The only other person I knew that knew him was his girlfriend Jen. Unfortunately she never new his family. All she knew was that he was from Montana. She actually only knew him for a few weeks as far as I understood.

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/12 20:20:13 UTC

I never gave any kind of a formal statement.

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/12 20:23:15 UTC

I also tried emailing his girlfriend just to see how she was doing, but never got a response.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Martin Henry - 2005/10/13 17:14:13 UTC

Well others are going to start worrying about the legal factor. I would still like to get to the bottom of what happened so we can move ahead and gain from this very costly loss. So I still have a few questions, (if I may?)

Sure. But it's The Davis Show - so don't expect much in the way of straight answers.

What was the glider being flown?

North Wing T2.

What was the history of the glider (accidents, repairs, age, hours flown)?

Why are you asking? Did the glider exhibit any unexpected flight characteristics?

What was the gross glider weight?

Zero right after the weak link popped.

What was the gliders payload?

Two lives.

Does the glider have any known certificate?

Did the
- tug driver?
- release?
- weak links?

What damage (post crash) did the glider sustain?

Not much. The instructor and student absorbed most of the impact.

Was the glider/harness configuration checked?

For what?

Was the glider correctly assembled?

Was it safely hooked up?

Statements made indicate that the separation from tow was at the Tug end of the tow line:

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/12 16:47:25 UTC

They take off, get low on the tug weeklink breaks from the tow plane...

Statements made STATE that the separation from tow was at the tug end of the towline.

Was the separation by weak-link or release?

Release. They were getting bored waiting for the weak link to induce the fatal whipstall.

Did the towline remain with the glider during the decent?

During the decent what?

Was the release systems tested?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4049
Towing errata

Bill Bryden - 2004/04/01 16:20:18 UTC

Some aerotow releases, including a few models from prominent schools, have had problems releasing under high tensions. You must VERIFY through tests that a release will work for the tensions that could possibly be encountered. You better figure at least three hundred pounds to be modestly confident.

Maybe eight to ten years ago I got several comments from people saying a popular aerotow release (with a bicycle type brake lever) would fail to release at higher tensions. I called and talked to the producer sharing the people's experiences and concerns. I inquired to what tension their releases were tested but he refused to say, just aggressively stated they never had any problems with their releases, they were fine, goodbye, click. Another person tested one and found it started getting really hard to actuate in the range of only eighty to a hundred pounds as I vaguely recall. I noticed they did modify their design but I don't know if they ever really did any engineering tests on it. You should test the release yourself or have someone you trust do it. There is only one aerotow release manufacturer whose product I'd have reasonable confidence in without verifying it myself, the Wallaby release is not it.

Yep.

Was there a possibility that the release (glider end) failed?

Fuck no. Whenever a gate is found closed on a Wallaby-style tow release, it's because...

Joe Gregor - 2004/09

There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.

...the pilot made no attempt to release - never because the:
- reach wasn't quite easy enough
- velcro didn't prevent the bicycle brake lever from spinning around the downtube
- bicycle brake lever bottomed out before the spinnaker shackle latch cleared
- there was too much tow pressure

Why ask the question? Quallaby releases are known total pieces of shit, they have no load capacity, they're totally inaccessible in emergencies, they fail left and right in normal circumstances, the total assholes who use them don't give flying fucks about anything.

What was the weak link configuration?

Blatantly illegal in as many ways as the aerotow industry could figure out to make it.

Was the configuration tested with results evaluated?

Yeah. Many times with many fatalities. Very long track record. Not homemade.

Were the results within industry standards?

Of course. A fuckin' hook knife is within industry standards.

Statements have been made that a parachute was deployed:
Was the parachute deployed?
If deployed, what deployment sequence was completed?
Was the parachute system tested (for access and use)?

Yes. Two people got killed, didn't they?

With regards to the pilot/student:
What has the coroner determined to be cause of death?

Infallible Weak Link Syndrome.

Did the coroner determine any other medical conditions that may have contributed to the accident?

Trust.

Was the instructor certified?

- Were Bill Bennett and Mike Del Signore when they got killed the same way on 1996/07/25?
- I guess the reasons you're not asking if the tug driver was certified are because:
-- he:
--- obviously did a totally stellar job on this one
--- certainly would have told us all if he weren't
-- it's physically impossible for a tug driver to do anything that would have a negative effect on a glider's safety

Was the instructor in command of the aircraft?

All the way until impact.

Was the student in command of the aircraft?

They were both passengers - asshole. The ultimate Pilot In Command of that glider for that flight was a piece of fishing line at the tug end used to:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

I rarely break weak links -- in fact, I believe the last one was some two years ago, and I have never broken one on a tandem (probably because I am light and also because I change them whenever they show any signs of wear). They are a good thing to have, though!!

What was the student's qualifications?

Ability to write at a second grade level.

Obviously, these are the kinds of questions a proper accident investigation needs to ask.

Totally dude. If one asked the blindingly obvious questions pertinent to the incident like:
- What the fuck was the goddam idiot tug driver doing the entire flight when the glider was trying to climb up into position?
- What was the strength of the fucking fishing line that increased the safety of the towing operation and what fraction of legal was it?
we might get back to Seventies level common sense and start operating on the assumptions that bad pin men, rope breaks, and premature releases were BAD things.

This is the kind of stuff that answers questions, solves the mystery and gives us the knowledge to progress.

Suck my dick, Martin.

Unfortunately, having a lawyer perched on your should makes many of these questions very difficult to answer!

- Sounds to me like you have a chip on your should, dude.

- Yes, it's almost IMPOSSIBLE discuss these things openly and honestly when the legal representative of the family whose kid you've just murdered may be listening. We should all carefully study Davis Dead-On Straub's speech patterns and learn to duplicate them.

Apparently there is a witness out there that has posted comments on this forum.

APPARENTLY?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/12 16:47:25 UTC

Arlan accident

The problem is that everyone is trying to find out what happened in a place where nobody was except for the 2 people that are now gone. As far as I know there were 3 witnesses, myself and 2 others, which all say the same thing. Jeremiah behind the controls from the start. They take off, get low on the tug weeklink breaks from the tow plane, one wing stalls out, glider rotates to an almost straight down attitude, picks up speed and impacts.

Based on that information it's my personal opinion that the weaklink broke because of the increased pressure on the line from being low, and taking the power away from a glider that is pretty much stalled caused the lack of control, and the wing to drop. It seems to me that it was simply pilot error which lead to the weaklink breaking. Afterall, if the weaklink didn't break they still would have been flying.

How much farther up your ass do you think you could get your head if it weren't for your bothersome shoulds?

Perhaps the witness would like to step forward and answer these questions? (in private or otherwise) I hope the fear of litigation does not keep the answers hidden from the public.

Don't worry, Martin. Whatever the fear of litigation does I have every confidence that highly esteemed industry standards experts such as yourself and Joe Gregor will be very successful in keeping the answers hidden from the public.

I for one would like to add this knowledge to the conclusions of pervious crashes.

Let's try this, Martin. Ready?

IF THE WEAKLINK DIDN'T BREAK THEY STILL WOULD HAVE BEEN FLYING.

Did you catch that? Let's play things on the safe side.

IF THE WEAKLINK DIDN'T BREAK THEY STILL WOULD HAVE BEEN FLYING.

IF THE WEAKLINK DIDN'T BREAK THEY STILL WOULD HAVE BEEN FLYING.

IF THE WEAKLINK DIDN'T BREAK THEY STILL WOULD HAVE BEEN FLYING.

Any of that sink in? I'm guessing you're not blind to the colors black, red, green, AND blue?

Perhaps the witness would like to step forward and answer these questions? (in private or otherwise) I hope the fear of litigation does not keep the answers hidden from the public. I for one would like to add this knowledge to the conclusions of pervious crashes.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7230
Towing question

Martin Henry - 2009/06/26 06:06:59 UTC

PS... you got to be careful mentioning weak link strengths around the forum, it can spark a civil war

Yeah it's gonna spark a civil war that's gonna quickly end with the bloated carcasses of all you pigfuckers scattered all over the battlefield. Suck my dick, Martin.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Craig Hassan - 2005/10/13 17:32:20 UTC

Maybe my memory is adding to what I've read, but I think a lot of those questions have been answered here.

How much more black and white do you think things needed to have been?

Brian McMahon - 2005/10/13 17:45:15 UTC

If you go back and look at vanman25's posts, you can get some of the information based on his view of what happened (he was an eye witness). Many of the details you're asking about wouldn't be posted here unless a full accident report had been completed.

I don't think the motherfucker's the SLIGHTEST bit interested having anything understood and fixed. He's an internationally renowned...

Toronto Sun - 2012/05/07

The Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association of Canada is launching its own investigation into the B.C. accident that killed Lenami Godinez-Avila.

The association has named industry standards expert Martin Henry as the official investigator.

...industry standards expert. He's an expert on the kinds of industry standards that killed Jeremiah, Arlan, and Lenami. His sole motivation is to protect industry standards - 'cause if they get revamped to anything sane and safe he won't be an industry standards expert any more.

Davis Straub - 2005/10/13 17:49:08 UTC

The nice thing about Canadians, like Martin...

Fuck Canadians, like Martin. And they're damn near all like Martin. I can name you ONE Canadian hang glider person that I DON'T totally despise.

...is that they actually have an accident database in Canada.

Well then, they should be able to look at their accident database and tell us what went wrong on this one within about thirty seconds or so. 2002/08/17 - William Allen Woloshyniuk / Victor Douglas Cox comes immediately to mind.

You can find out more about this in the Oz Report.

Yeah Davis, it's such a wonderful resource. You can find scores of people getting killed the same ways by industry standards decade after decade. How lucky hang gliding is to have scum like you who don't care about anything other than themselves organizing and presenting all this information for us.

You can also read about our attempts to get this working here and world wide. Without any luck at CIVL.

That's OK, you've made ATTEMPTS. That's all that really counts.

Name me something that you've published over the decades that's prevented one downtube from getting bent. And no...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14931
Tad's release (even more)

Freedomspyder - 2009/02/14 17:43:30 UTC

I've found your posts on both hook-in checks and releases very interesting and well thought out.
Best of luck dealing with the Oz Report forum cult and its leader.

You can't count posts by T** at K*** S****** or those from anybody from Tad's Hole In The Ground.

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13 19:47:26 UTC

The harness configuration is checked before, and after every flight. After the crash, the right leading edge was broken in i think 3 places, the right wing had a tear about 2-3 ft. long going from the leading edge to the trailing edge the landing gear was bent.

What did the front end weak link look like?

The glider was correctly assembled. It was always hangered fully set up. The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The tow line was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the tow line.

Wasn't the towline supposed to have been stretched horizontally between the tug and glider?

Refer to one of my recent posts about the parachute. The release was tested before every flight and also after the crash, and it worked.

At what loading? USHGA AT regulations state the release must be operable at twice weak link. The minimum legal weak link for that glider was 414 pounds towline. Do you test it before every flight to see if it can handle that insanely dangerous minimum or go marginally legal at 828? How 'bout just what one and half Gs / 777 pounds would do? I could easily live with that. Jeremiah and Arlan could have too.

It's not likely to have failed from the glider end.

It's EXTREMELY likely...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Axel Banchero - 2009/06/20 04:57:01 UTC

I just kept hitting the brake lever for a few seconds in WTF mode, and the instructor used the barrel release.

...to have failed at the glider end. But that wasn't an issue here because the LAST thing the glider wanted to be was off tow.

Arlan was an advanced rated tandem instructor.

How many box tops do you hafta to send in and/or dicks do you hafta suck to get one of those tickets nowadays?

The student was in control of the glider from the start...

Bullshit. Gary and his fishing line were in control of that glider from start to impact.

...but I couldn't see who was in control after the weak link broke.

Arlan was the designated Pilot In Command for that flight and if he'd felt for a millisecond that Jeremiah wasn't handling things properly AND AS HE HAD BEEN TRAINED TO he'd have taken over. And it's fuckin' moronic to suggest or pretend otherwise.

And note that the glider was tracking straight the whole time. When students have no clue what they're doing and/or how to control a glider...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC1yrdDV4sI


...THAT's where you're gonna see the problem.

I was told the student was on his 10th flight, and was to do 3 more that evening, then solo.

Good thing he was getting all that expert tandem training so he understood how to aerotow safely.

This is pretty much every thing that I know, hope it helps somebody out.

No interest whatsoever in the strength of the focal point of their safe towing system, right?

I'm guessing a rifle is the focal point of a soldier's safe operating system. Those guys can name every component, probably spell them correctly, understand muzzle velocity, how to compensate for range and wind, break them down and reassemble them in under forty-five seconds blindfolded...

Nobody in hang gliding knows what the focal point of its safe towing system is supposed to be doing or has the slightest fucking clue as to what its strength is or gives the slightest flying fuck - even after STATING that IT'S JUST KILLED TWO PEOPLE.