http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death
Jeff Nielsen - 2005/09/16 02:21:14 UTC
Just for clarification, I am not asking that it be "right" at this moment, I am asking that it be discussed.
Fuck that. You hafta be ONE HUNDRED PERCENT *RIGHT* about these things. Just like the final report we're gonna get ten years from now will be after the anonymous crack investigator completes their exhaustive crack investigation.
I see no inherent respect to the dead in NOT talking about what happened.
It's fuckin' DESPICABLE to not talk about these. That's damn near ALL we should be talking about until:
- ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of the people we have flying these things understand exactly what the fuck happened
- are on the same page with two plus two equals four
- all the motherfuckers responsible for these are properly dealt with
Arlan was a good friend and the last thing I would do is disrespect him (and/or Jerimiah too).
Then stop putting him in parentheses. Arlan was responsible for the safety of that operation and did a total shit job. He used total junk equipment and violated the crap out of rules and regulations. Three deaths - including his own in the space of a bit over fourteen months.
In my opinion, simply talking about anything would be better than waiting in silence.
Sorry dude, your opinion is in direct conflict with the opinions of the motherfuckers orchestrating these things.
In fact, I think it IS a disrespect NOT to be talking and learning right now.
Try not to think too much. That sort of behavior tends to get threads locked down. Come over here and ask around if you don't believe me.
People, including myself, are highly motivated right now to learn.
You REALLY don't know when to shut the fuck up, do ya?
Just from the few phone calls I have made to friends talking about this has led to tremendous insight and learning.
DANGER! DANGER! DANGER!
Perhaps I have already become a better pilot exercising my mind through a couple of senerios. Make sense?
Yes. Now read the crap published by sleazebags like Dennis Pagen and Matt Taber and see if IT makes sense.
I think people are confusing two seperate issues here. One would be the findings and conclusions of the people who are investigating this accident...
Who are they? Out in the REAL WORLD are the names of the investigators kept secret? Don't they appear on television to show crash scene video; give updates on their progress; rule out various scenarios; give most likely scenarios; publicize eyewitness accounts, black box data, recordings and/or transcripts of communications with the tower?
You're watching Massey Energy run the investigation of the Upper Big Branch coal mine explosion disaster. They don't want information getting out to the families, other coal miners, the public and people discussing things, reaching inescapable conclusions.
...and rest of us who are close or concerned pilots who want to know more and learn.
Fuck concerned pilots. USHGA's been running a campaign to turn concerned pilots' brains into mush for decades - and been doing a really good job of it.
Clearly, the people who are investigating shouldn't give a conclusion or talk until everything is done.
'Cause they're the best of the best. They're gonna work tirelessly for as long as it takes to get every punctuation mark dead on. They don't wanna hafta deal with the totally clueless comments, questions, ideas, suggestions of any of us mental midget muppets who think they might have something to offer or who have ideas about homemade gear with little to nothing in the way of track record. STRAIGHT pin releases that you can't use on heavy ropes without weak links... Get real dude.
The rest of us? In my opinion, we should be talking and learning about everything right now.
You should shut the fuck up and do what you're told by Dr. Trisa Tilletti, Davis Dead-On Straub, and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney. Fuckin' armchair, keyboard warrior, weekender muppet.
Despite saying that, it would be nice if they could give us an investigating update other than "2 people died in a hangglider at 7:00pm." Just a simple update would be nice ... not conclusion, just a simple update. Perhaps facts that are not in question, for instance.
OK. The wreckage was found on the ground and the pilot and passenger are believed to have been uninjured prior to impact with the aforementioned ground.
Now fuck off.
If I am the only person who feel this way...
If you weren't then...
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1041
"Sharing" of Hang Gliding Information ?!?
Merlin - 2012/05/26 13:22:30 UTC
I confess to previously having a bit of an Oz Report habit, but the forced login thing has turned me off permanently, and I am in fact grateful. Frankly, the site had pretty much been reduced to a few dedicated sycophants in any case.
...you pretty much are now.
...please forgive me...
This ONE TIME. Never let it happen again.
...and I will shut up.
Now shut the fuck up.
Thanks.
Don't mention it.
Martin Henry - 2005/09/16 03:16:19 UTC
Jeff,
We are "talking".
Look through this thread. Look at the OZ report.
As long as you've got Davis's permission. He's got it locked down now.
We are discussing;
- the DD harness
- Glider:
-- certifications
-- airworthiness
- Tow force and theory
- The evolution of our form of aviation
You're NOT discussing:
- the:
-- tow mast failure in the double fatality Martin reported on
-- facts that:
--- the HGC glider was supposed to have gotten dangerously low on the tow with the instructor either in command or available to take it
--- FAA aerotow weak link regulations were being blatantly violated
--- no weak link strengths are being mentioned
--- the front end weak link overrode the decisions of all three pilots to continue the tow
- why Davis is being privileged with inside information being withheld from everyone else
- what:
-- purpose the weak links being used were supposed to be serving
-- qualifications our resident brain damaged sociopath is supposed to have that we don't
Yes its frustrating waiting for a statement, but I too lost a very good friend, and three other fellow flyers (in a sport where we often establish a very close bond to our fellow dreamers).
Yes Jeff, it's frustrating waiting for a statement but Martin lost a very good friend and three other fellow dreamers with whom he hadn't established a very close bond. Understand now why you should tolerate these motherfuckers having sat on the information for near two weeks now?
I stand by my statement asking for patience, I apologize if you have taken offence.
I accept your apology, Martin. Fuck you anyway.
Michael Bradford - 2005/09/16 03:16:36 UTC
Imagine a graph which plots a curve that is smoothly sloping from left to right, until it peaks, then after a short steepening downturn, plunges vertically to 0.
The curve plots angle of attack (increasing, from left to right) and lift produced (the up and down axis.)
On the left ("front") side of that curve, near the top, is the angle of attack producing "best glide" speed. Increase the angle of attack (push out) and just the right of the apex, you find minimum sink. Push out any farther and first mushing, then stall occurs.
Everything to the right of the apex of that curve is called the "back side." Power pilots refer to it as the "back side" of the power curve because in this region, where best angle of climb occurs, the engine is gobbling up the drag. If the engine quits, the drag immediately wins.
Metaphorically, the towline is a long skinny engine.
Bullshit. You're just making more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
In hang glider towing high tension causes lockouts so we use weak links which prevent the high tension necessary for lockouts to occur and the high angles of attack necessary for a stall to occur if power is abruptly lost for any reason.
And stalls are no big fuckin' deals in hang gliding anyway.
James Lawrence - 2005/09/16 13:18:40 UTC
Re my previous post, I have to agree with Jeff. While I certainly respect Martin's opinion and emphathize with his feelings, having lost many close friends to hang gliding myself over the years, his urging patience feels suppressive to me.
Bloody well IS suppressive. Justice delayed is justice denied.
Talking about accidents is as old as our prehistoric ancestors sitting around the campfire after a hunt, grunting about the successes and failures of the day's events. Hunters died in those days too.
There is a time for mourning, and there is a time for learning. They can run parallel. Life isn't a textbook and we can't control nearly as much of it as we think we can or would like to.
AVIATION bloody well IS a textbook. And a fairly simple and straightforward one at that.
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
There was a really bad pin man and - INTENTIONALLY - a really crappy rope that broke.
On top of that there was very likely a reflex bridle that wasn't adjusted for sail shrinkage but that's a totally secondary issue. You can still kill a glider with a properly adjusted bridle by decreasing the altitude at which the shit hits the fan and/or increasing the severity of the shit. See Mike Haas, 2004/06/26, Hang Glide Chicago.
As I posted earlier, I believe it is vitally important that we all share our feelings, not just our hard and fast evidence. It's part of the healing we all have to do when someone loses their life in an activity that we do.
Fuck feelings. You give me one single example of the death of one of our beloved friends has catalyzed a measurable implementation of a fix we had available and in use on a small scale years prior.
It's also part of our learning, and part of our understanding.
Fuck that. If anything is to be learned here it's that the more we allow sleazebags like Davis and his buddies to get away with the more they're gonna try to get away with.
It's how we move on, wiser, safer, and we can hope, more human pilots.
Close to nine years later now, Jim. Tell me about all the progress we've made.
In similar instances I have called upon the writings of Tom Wolfe from his great book on the early US space program, The Right Stuff. He talked about how pilots in various test programs were consumed with anxiety after someone they knew or knew of died when testing a vehicle. The fear could be overpowering...until they knew the probable cause of the accident.
We know the DEFINITE cause of the "accident". The fuckin' rope broke. Lemme know when you wanna stop talking about what an excellent operation Highland Aerosports is and help me get better ropes into circulation.
Once they had some handle on what happened, or even what "might" have happened, they could get back in the cockpit and do their jobs.
What would they do if they knew precisely what the problem was and the military kept forcing them back up on the same lethally defective equipment?
It's the not knowing that cripples our resolve to do dangerous things. Ignorance is the panther that waits just beyond the circle of firelight.
It's completely natural that we talk about these thoughts and feelings after a tragedy like this. Inhibiting the dialog is what governments and trial lawyers do.
You mean like the hang gliding government and its lawyer we have in place now are doing at this very moment?
It has, in my opinion, no place in an enlightened society, which is what we're all trying to be here.
Well if that's what WE'RE ALL trying to be here we should probably try something else 'cause we all totally suck at this.
Personally, I've learned a lot about towing just from reading this thread that I might not have learned.
You could've learned all about the primary factor in this one by reading Manned Kiting which was published 31 years prior.
And a couple things are directly opposite to tips I learned from my first tow instructor, one of which is "Don't let that tug get above you whatever you do, push out! push out! You can't possibly stall!"
So how come you're not naming your first instructor so we can get his certification revoked - or at least advise everyone to avoid him like the plague?
Apparently you can.
And you needed to have this happen in order to be able to reach that conclusion?
I want to know more.
Guess we'll just hafta wait for more rerun fatalities to get other points - like there's no such thing as an easy reach on a plane that requires two hands for control - across to you.
Clearly there is more information to share about this potentially lethal activity of towing.
Nothing that hasn't been clearly stated and repeated by sane people thousands of times before.
Learning through an accident is not, in my opinion, a disrespect or disservice to the memory of those who fell.
No. It's a waste of the life or life - 'cause there's NEVER an "accident" that happens as a result of an issue that wasn't fully understood decades before.
On the contrary, I think if they could read this dialog, they'd encourage every scrap of insight be shared so the same thing doesn't happen to any other pilots down the road.
Arlan had pulled Hang Four rated Mike Haas up on a totally piece of shit Wallaby "release" that had been savaged by one of the authors of the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden 86 days before and a standard aerotow weak link off the bottom of the end of the legal range and killed him dead as a doornail. And both of those issues were critical factors.
Arlan had ZERO in the way of public comment, made ZERO - along with everyone else in The Industry - in the way of recommendations, did ZERO in the way of modifying procedures at his own operation.
But because it was his own ass that got killed at his operation in similar circumstances - illegally light weak link pop the next season he's now supposed to be having all these concerns that mistakes not be repeated?
Arlan developed no insights he deemed worthy of sharing in the fourteen plus months left of his life subsequent to Mike's fatal crash. But you think he developed some really good ones in the span of however many seconds it took him and his student to freefall 250 feet?
This guy:
Martin Apopot - 2010/01/18 22:21
He went back to the scooter machine and I gave him my signal I am ready. Before the signal, I should have picked up my glider to feel for the pull in my strap and leg loops.
leaves the field with a broken neck.
This guy:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25550
Failure to hook in.
Bille Floyd - 2011/10/27 16:59:26 UTC
The Wind came back up and i picked up the glider & made a mental pre-launch check. Remembering that i had already hooked in previously --
i deleted the, "lift the glider" part to check for tension on the harness.
and signaled for the driver to GO !!
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17330
Take your flying--seriously--OR....
Bille Floyd - 2010/05/26 03:27:41 UTC
After hitting the ground I looked down at where my feet should be and knew it was Bad - then I looked back at my Mom and sighed. I wasn't going to be taking care of her any more.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4046
Accident Report
Doug Koch - 2007/10/20 15:42:57 UTC
Las Vegas
The impact broke both legs at the ankles and drove his shin bones out the bottom of his feet six inches.
Find EITHER OF THEM in a subsequent unhooked launch discussion advocating hook-in checks of any kind.
I know that's what I would want, if it happened to me.
It happened to Jeremiah and Arlan instead of you. How much are you doing to keep this from happening to someone else? Not as much of a priority for you 'cause it wasn't you who slammed in?
That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???
