Re: Releases
Posted: 2016/10/01 07:35:01 UTC
I think that you just did demolish the incompetent pile of shit there, Tad. Nice work!
A forum devoted to the scientific advancement of hang gliding
http://www.kitestrings.org/
Yeah. Total gold mine.Bruno Schnedl - 2016/08/24 17:51:08 UTC
Ryan, that was very well written...
How 'bout the part at which he moves the Jeff Bohl lockout fatality from the smooth light air of the Quest Air open in May to the brutal stuff in the Big Spring Nationals in August? Just minor, irrelevant discrepancies?...and I agree with almost all of what you wrote.
...like soaring hang gliders within their placard limitations...I agree with your point that we can't see the rough air, but we can expect it. And negative reinforcement is true in many things but extreme sports...
'Specially when all the instructional, performance, equipment, safety SOPs are written and enforced by an aviation association that isn't in the business of safety - but rather in the business of covering its ass in all instances of gross incompetence and negligence....really show the consequences.
One of those experts on towing who doesn't tow and has no fuckin' clue what he's talking about in general.Where I wrote about having to fly our butts off to stay behind the tug, was interpreted two ways by you...
Oh. You were able to LAUNCH SAFELY and didn't start getting seriously kicked around until you had plenty of altitude and getting kicked around didn't matter - like in mountain flying....and I would offer that there was a third way to look at it. That as rowdy as conditions were, we were able to safely launch into the sky.
How many hands did you have on the control frame and where were they positioned while you were exercising...Sure some of us had to give it a few tries, but I would say that it was impressive how much control we "did" have in those conditions.
1. Since the hang gliding instruction we get totally sucks at all levels.This goes back to one of my comments earlier, knowledge and personal responsibility are our basis for decision making. How we cumulate knowledge is by pushing our knowledge limits.
1. Like perhaps where, when, under what circumstances, why fatal crashes ACTUALLY HAPPEN?But we also need to make sure we have all the data at hand.
Thanks. We'd have been totally unable to watch the videos of the Eastern European guys doing what they've been doing since the beginning of time and drawing any useful conclusions without your mouth release findings.That was why I put out my mouth release findings.
Kinda like Russian (how ironic) roulette? The game that Jeff Bohl lost just once on 2016/05/21?My personal feeling is that the barrel release is a perfect example of rolling a single die.
And...Most everyone that uses that system all say that they have never had a problem.
1. No, that would be the...Does that mean there isn't a problem lurking? I don't think the mouth release is the panacea...
...straight pin barrel release that some of the guys from Tad's Hole In The Ground incorporate into their systems as non-emergency secondaries.Jim Rooney - 2013/03/11 18:59:06 UTC
I have no fear of bent pins.
Why aren't straight pins used?
That's easy. They can't be used with anything but thin lines.
They also can't be made with anything but thin lines.
Tad loves to forget that I've actually gotten one of his to jam.
NOTHING is perfect kids.
Straight pin releases can work, but they're not the panacea that these guys are claiming.
1. No shit....but we need to do some more research and maybe even some re-engineering but the concept is valid.
John Maloney. Also Houston.The other pilot that was doing research with me...
Pity he didn't make it BEFORE Jeff's "accident"....is an airline pilot as well and his comment to me after Jeff's accident rings true....
The airline industry isn't a monopoly controlled by Tim Herr and accountable to NO ONE...."the airline industry along with the FAA would never stand for this many accidents of the same nature" i.e. tow launch deaths.
Me too, Jonathan!NMERider - 2016/08/24 18:06:15 UTC
I thought that the following assertions were well worth repeating...Ryan Voight - 2016/08/24 16:48:54 UTC
...flex wing hang gliders have perfectly adequate handling characteristics... as long as we respect the limitations inherent in the aircraft...
...IT IS THE DUTY OF THE PILOT TO OPERATE WITHIN THESE LIMITATIONS...
...The accountability for whatever happens to us, is ours to own. And the better we accept, respect, embrace this... the safer our flight choices and activities become!
I think a nice coating of Crazy Glue on his keyboard should suffice.Tad Eareckson wrote:....Jonathan, if you really wanna do something to moderate fatality rates a bit and be remembered well by aviation history then start by helping us drive a stake through the heart of this duplicitous little motherfucker.
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8377/29923344142_d17324af6b_o.pngMitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
02-00820Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.
Make us a video of what ACTUALLY happens when somebody weight shift controls a glider using the Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight no-hands technique.Ryan Voight - 2012/09/26 20:05:16 UTC
I can (and have) run across a field and steer the glider without ever touching the DT's by simply changing the direction I run. At the beach (or South Side) I like to practice kiting my wing with no hands, and just moving my hips (and stepping if necessary) left/right.
Pulling the hang loop to the right is pulling the hang loop to the right- glider don't care if you're dangling beneath it or still touching the ground. As long as your mains are tight, you can weight shift it!
Peter Birren emerges from the dead. His inbred cult forum has been dead for close to ten months.Peter Birren - 2016/09/06 16:32:17 UTC
A twenty dollar answer to all conceivable problems in all flavors of towing. What a bargain.The Linknife is still available and is still only $20.00.
While you're easily flying the glider through the lockout emergency with the other hand.Cuts the weaklink with ease.
Not for this:Weaklinks are cheap.
Great advertisement, Peter. NEARLY foolproof. Exactly what I'm looking for in equipment upon which I'm trusting my life. This carabiner HARDLY EVER fails. And then ONLY when it's heavily loaded.http://www.birrendesign.com/linknife.html
Linknife - nearly foolproof release
What's on the other end of that little piece of string, Peter? What makes the Linknife go while the pilot's busy fighting a lockout with BOTH hands? (Pay careful attention to what the motherfuckers AREN'T showing you.)
- Bridle is just a synonym for release. Ask Davis if you don't believe me.Peter Birren - 2016/09/06 16:33:48 UTCAlong with releases are the different types of bridles...Stallpolicer - 2016/09/05 17:50:25 UTC
I've been thinking of starting a thread about types of towing releases available.
Just make sure that whatever release you use is within really easy reach....and different types of tow systems. Not all are interchangeable.
Make sure you give it plenty of treats on the morning of a flying day. You don't want that thing pissed off at you when the shit hits the fan.Dave Gills - 2016/09/06 17:15:39 UTCYep, but only a trained mongoose can catch the release string and pull it for you.Peter Birren - 2016/09/06 16:32:17 UTC
The Linknife is still available and is still only $20.00. Cuts the weaklink with ease.
Fuck that. It's not within easy reach and how are you supposed to cut a weak link with it?I sell Russian Mouth Releases for $120.
PM for more info.
Donnell Hewett's Skyting Theory makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Never saw you getting bent out of shape about it.Peter Birren - 2016/09/06 17:25:21 UTC
Well that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
This:Dave Gills - 2016/09/06 17:49:42 UTC
You could get another chute container and carry your mongoose in there for when you want to quickly deploy him.
This is what the little release string is doing when you want to find it in a hurry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T04S-9HPLc
Somewhere there is a video of a really exciting lockout while using a Skyting/Linknife combo.
I can't find it.
[sad face]
It's a shame six year olds don't get proper training on setting up the brake systems on their bicycles.Peter Birren - 2016/09/06 17:56:04 UTC
Shame you didn't get proper training in setting up a release.
What...The pull string should never be unattached/loose.
...difference does it make? You can't get to it because it's writhing around like a snake in major evasive mode or because it's properly set up? Either way you slam in at max possible tension.Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC
You trying to tell me the pilot had time to release? Not a prayer.
I know about this type of accident because it happened to me, breaking 4 ribs and my larynx... and I was aerotowing using a dolly. The sh*t happened so fast there was no room for thought much less action. But I wasn't dragged because the weaklink did its job and broke immediately on impact.
Check out Peter Holloway's operation (above). (Same first name. You guys related?)In my thousand tows, and in the thousands of tows I've witnessed, I've never had nor seen anything like this.
Synonyms. Also two to one, "center of mass".Dave Gills - 2016/09/06 18:05:03 UTC
Well holy smokes...I saw it on my fourth winch tow.
Dude almost failed to release and it was tied on his shoulder.
Just as it says here
http://www.birrendesign.com/LKStatic.html
[BTW...I meant Hewett not Skyting]
Fuck no. It's DAVIS. Davis never worries about anything. Mostly he's just happy with things.Mike Bomstad - 2016/09/06 18:24:56 UTCNo worries...Davis Straub - 2016/09/05 14:45:13 UTC
Thanks. I linked to that video previously and am "happy" to be reminded of it.
Yeah, just another one of those hang gliding videos......there is so much out there, its hard to keep track.
You thought the Aussie Method was the end-of-story solution to unhooked launches.(I thought it was from a youtube video until I couldn't find it there)
http://www.birrendesign.com/rhgpa_criteria.htmlPeter Birren - 2016/09/06 18:31:18 UTC
I'm confused. If the pilot had the pull string attached to his shoulder, how could it have "snaked" per the garden hose video?
BTW, the Hewett 2:1 bridle -is- the Skyting bridle. Don Hewett created the name Skyting for static line towing.
- Spelled "Skyting" wrong, Peter.RHGPA: Hewett skying criteria
And who could've predicted anything like that happening from the ground beforehand.Dave Gills - 2016/09/06 19:07:04 UTC
I know what he told me.
He made two attempts to grab the string as he was losing control of the glider.
When he released the control bar with his hand to get ahold of it both times, the glider rolled and pitched violently and the little string started whipping around.
When he did finally get it in his hand, he had to pull several feet of slack out because the tow line was slack.
I began researching and developing releases almost as soon as I started getting into towing. Didn't take long to see that what was being put into the air was total crap and getting worse.That was my beginning of researching releases.
I just took one look at the Bailey bent pin barrel "release" and identified it as moronic crap.I bought every release I could find in order to test them.
Just ban it...I did not yet have my AT rating and was afraid of the equipment I had seen.
...(at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay. You'll be fine. Oh - And also increase your weak link safety rating to the point at which you can't get airborne.Davis Straub - 2005/01/11
This type of release mechanism has been banned (at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay.
Something like THIS:Here is a partial collection from that time.
Make sure to keep it out of the grass. A little stubble will neutralize it. Probably also a good idea to steer clear of dust devils 'cause those things are always loaded with crap.Peter Birren - 2016/09/06 19:16:45 UTC
Thanks for clarifying and good for you to do the research you did, including getting a Linknife. Most of these, if properly aware and trained in their uses, will work as planned.
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-martin-baker-ejection-seat-out-of-and-f4-phantom-jet-fighter-aircraft-28811932.htmlHowever, if only "tried" once or twice, the ease or difficulty of use will be tough to uncover and learn.
THIS:Dave Gills - 2016/09/06 19:46:45 UTCOne failure and they ended up in the trash.However, if only "tried" once or twice, the ease or difficulty of use will be tough to uncover and learn.
is a FAILURE. 100.00 percent PRE DICTABLE.Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC
Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540One by one they all ended up in the trash except for the Russian.
Jim Gaar - 2011/07/14 15:40:13 UTC
In a litigious society like the U.S. it's all part of the game. If you don't like it, you just take your ball and go home...
This is the reality of the sport we love. "Always the student". Learn how to use it or don't. You just missed out on what every American pilot already knows from birth.
We assume risk every day. Sometimes with a LMFP release. Hope you get your issues ironed out. The classified section is ready if you don't.
Oh. So you're a Rube Goldbergian.I think I threw away about 600 dollars worth of absolute garbage.
I wouldn't want my nephew driving a car that had a lap belt, a non-collapsible steering column and zero airbags even though thousands of us did it thousands of times and got away with it.
Koch. Pronounced: "Coke".Same goes for the Kotch device or whatever you call it.
I think it's pretty doable. Quick slap on your chest with your right hand and then back to the bar. Head and shoulders above anything else within easy reach. I think Jeff Bohl would've been OK with a Koch.Try hitting that sucker with your hand in the kill zone before you lawn dart.
162-20727NMERider - 2016/09/06 20:01:00 UTC
Actually that photo posted above...
Tad who? Tad Hurst? That u$hPa Board guy whose final participation in the sport was an unhooked launch at Torrey on 2006/05/05? What an asshole....came from Tad's...
That doesn't make sense....Flickr account and his own forum post originally dated 2014/07/22 16:04:09 UTC.
- What? Vitriol can't useful information? What if Nancy had read the vitriol I'd posted about Mission Soaring Center and the douchebags who run and staff it? Would that have HURT her chances of survival?Several members of the Org including me also belong to that other forum which, in spite of all the vitriol does contain useful information.
INEVITABLY.Sadly, the sport of hang gliding continues to implode.
You got a Board of fuckin' dickheads elected by a population of fuckin' dickheads dancing to the tune of a nonpilot sleazebag attorney whose sole function is to shield "OUR" monopoly association from accountability for its chronic gross criminal negligence.Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/29 02:26:23 UTC
We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of our association.
...safety officer aren't talking about the extinction of the SPORT - they're talking about the extinction of their boys' club. Zero ability to grasp the big picture / long run concept that when you're mangling and killing flyers at unsustainable rates the sport will go extinct and the boys' club will shortly afterwards follow it down the toilet.Timothy Herr
Secretary and Risk Management Officer
is total fucking bullshit. FUCK anybody who isn't prooccupied with "accidents" and fatalies. Not being preoccupied with accidents and fatalities is an expression of contempt for the victims - not all of whom deserve contempt - and a sure-fire recipe for producing reruns at the same or increased rates.Robert V. Wills - 1976/10
Because there was some feeling that people involved in hang gliding, and people observing the sport from outside, should become preoccupied with accidents and fatalities, the editor of Ground Skimmer asked me to refrain from submitting accident summaries on an every-issue basis.
It's already a distant memory for Yours Truly. Today a week shy of eight years since last clipping into a glider because Highland Aerosports suddenly decided they wanted to make Ridgely Airpark a safe place for people of varying ages to visit (and didn't appreciate the fact that I was making noises about talking to the FAA).Not long before it becomes a distant memory at the rate it's regressing.
OK then... How 'bout a "what's the WORST release thread" thread? Anybody got a problem with the cheap bent pin piece o' shit from Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey that Jeff Bohl died on four and a half months ago?FlyKC10 - 2016/09/06 20:12:42 UTC
Thanks for all the info but I've been using the two stage release and really like it.
Didn't want to cause a "what's the best release thread"
So can I put you down on the column for not using a keel mounted release for a platform tow?My opinion........ Different types of towing call for different types of releases...
FUCK "pilot" PREFERENCE. Are sailplane releases installed in accordance with idiot pilot preferences. There's ALWAYS gonna be a BEST engineering solution for ANY tow configuration. If it exists, you use it. If it doesn't exist, you develop it. Otherwise you're just another dice roller. (Or maybe you've just got a solid safety solution but you're carrying weight and/or drag you shouldn't need to.)...and also pilot preference.
Bullshit. Platform configured like:I'm stationary winch towing and if done correctly, I believe, is the most safe type of towing.
- 'Cause it's got the MOST moving parts.less moving parts.
Fuck your opinion. Fuck anybody who has an OPINION on basic grade school level arithmetic.(my opinion)
And who's primarily responsible? The new Hang Two student or the operation that taught him, signed him off, and equipped and launched him?I've seen the video above and that was a combination of errors to include a screwed up release.
Pretty much everybody who surface tows in Western Europe.So back to the original post...... Does anybody have a Koch release?
Big fuckin' deal. The problem is it's too complicated for Mission students to connect properly. So ya go with a Mission State-Of-The-Art Two-String...Dave Gills - 2016/09/06 20:13:31 UTC
I tried a 3 ring circus also and it was inconsistent as load increased.
Their new and improved state-of-the-art model works a lot better for when the line's slack at the top of the tow too. Win/Win.Scott Howard - 2014/11/06 16:06:31 UTC
...the best i can do for now is a clip of the day b4 when i told the instructor about release problem. (still released by normal method but had to yank 3 times on release to get it to release.)
You just need more training on how to use the equipment properly.Once there was a problem with wrapping of the release string.
There's zero reason to need a secondary release on a one point system. If someone can't do the job properly with one release, hang strap, one starboard sidewire one shouldn't fly.Either way, I didn't see a secondary release in the video setup.
Am I missing something?
Why? What's wrong with these:Bart Weghorst - 2016/09/06 20:20:31 UTC
Houston
I like these:
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5830/30096559336_c7508e6e74_o.png
http://www.turfhouse.com/acatalog/UsedKochsingle.jpgDave Gills - 2016/09/06 20:28:54 UTC
There are 2 at this site...
One single & one double.
http://www.turfhouse.com/acatalog/copy_of_Paragliding_Bargains.html
Firebird UK SECONDHAND HANG GLIDING ACCESSORIES
NMERider - 2016/09/06 20:31:31 UTC
My friends in Hamburg, Germany all use the Koch type release for the winch towing at their club. I will send you a PM with my friend's email address so you can just write and ask him where to get one.
Cheap easily reachable Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt crap. (See below at his next post.) But thanks (again) anyway, Davis.Davis Straub - 2016/09/06 20:40:49 UTC
Back to the original topic of an over/under release. I have used many. Here is a good one:
http://ozreport.com/1149624110
Sorry. Can't see it 'cause your crappy website isn't working. But I'm assuming it's a good one because you're happy with it.Uses it with this system:
http://ozreport.com/toc.php?title=ATV%20Towing&articles=10.116/0
Looks complicated. Ten times the number of parts, ten times the likelihood of failure, ten times the likelihood of killing you. Best remove a lever or sumpin'.NMERider - 2016/09/06 21:03:04 UTC
I found one in Germany:
http://www.drachenfliegenlernen.de/shop/schleppzubehoer/doppelklinkekoch2.php
http://www.drachenfliegenlernen.de/images/kochklinke.jpg
The price include 19% VAT so email them and ask for the price with shipping to the US without the VAT.
- You mean like...Peter Birren - 2016/09/06 21:10:54 UTC
Those big hunks of metal on one's chest have been the cause for numerous broken ribs.
...your crappy little twenty dollar placebo release?Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC
You trying to tell me the pilot had time to release? Not a prayer.
I know about this type of accident because it happened to me, breaking 4 ribs and my larynx... and I was aerotowing using a dolly. The sh*t happened so fast there was no room for thought much less action. But I wasn't dragged because the weaklink did its job and broke immediately on impact.
Stroud.But in the same over/under vein, here's what Miller Straud...
I would've thunk that the plural of "Linknife" woud've woud've been "LinkniVes"....came up with using 2 Linknifes:
Yeah. Works great in any situation in which you don't need it to. He's very happy with it.
This will be "Releases" Post 1000. Guess how much time has gone into this one thread.NMERider - 2016/09/06 21:32:29 UTC
That's pretty interesting but I say give the OP what the OP asked for--broken ribs or no broken ribs. I think he was pretty adamant about obtaining a Koch-type 2-stage release and I have found a source. Hopefully, he gets his release then uses it and reports back here with a follow-up. Otherwise I have wasted fifteen minutes of my life trying to assist a fellow pilot. Wait a minute--I've wasted well over a 1,000 hours trying to help out the community. Shame on me for being such a fool.
And kills them because "EXPERIENCE" beyond solid left/right/up/down skills is completely useless when you're overpowered by a misaligned tow and need to quickly grow a third hand to get to your easily reachable placebo release.RBT - 2016/09/07 05:35:28 UTC
I know this thread is about the Koch release - but it's title is broader than that. Any newcomer (like myself) trying to get towing info will do a search and this thread will pop up and get read. So here is my 2 cents worth with that in mind.
From what I have read on here (and the Oz Report) when things go wrong in any form of towing it can happen very quickly. Sometimes so quickly it even takes those with lots of experience by total surprise.
Not really. You're dead either way so it doesn't really matter that much.In many of those cases it seems a decision had to be made about either keeping the hands on the basebar and trying to control the glider or going for a release.
Bull fucking shit.And all this happening at a time when adrenaline is pumping and fine motor control is compromised.
NOT DOWN LOW - where it MATTERS. We mostly need releases that don't stink on ice to keep students and fuckups to survive crappy instruction and preflight oversights.Considering the fact that towing is predominantly done on flatland with a view to catching thermals, the risks seem pretty clear - wings getting suddenly lifted with no warning for example.
You really don't have to:With one wing at a cockeyed angle and control disappearing fast, do you really want to have to make a decision to release control of the glider by taking a hand off the basebar?
Brad Gryder - 2013/02/21 23:25:31 UTC
There's also a way to swing your body way outside the control frame so it stays up there while you reach out with one hand and release. Come on - do some pushups this winter. See if you can advance up to some one-arm pushups.
Yes. The kind of dangerous unpredictable situations that are predicted by decades of fatality reports.These dangerous unpredictable situations seem to apply equally to both aero and ground based towing.
And make sure to totally ignore anything that Tad's developed.If you are new and looking at towing and release options I suggest you take a good look at the Russian Mouth Release.
Ya know what really feels odd in your mouth?It feels a bit odd in your mouth to start with but you quickly get used to it.
- Would you shut the fuck up about DECISIONS?! There ARE NO DECISIONS to be made when you have no viable options for an acceptable outcome. The DECISION was made before you got on the cart. If it was a SHIT one - as it virtually always is in the West - you're a passenger. Put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye.Any physical discomfort is easily outweighed by the the mental comfort of knowing that you will not have to make the decisions described above.
So you didn't pull any teeth out? Does Davis know about this?I haven't aero towed with it, but have walked around the house with it in my mouth for 10 minutes and it wasn't a problem.
And whom do you have in mind for doing that, Davis? A team of our finest US release engineers? Who've only made things crappier over the course of the last three decades?Davis Straub - 2016/09/07 05:56:07 UTC
And, I'm quite certain that it is possible to re-engineer the Russian Mouth Release to make it more pleasant in the mouth.
Well why don't you do it, Davis? Still too bogged down with your 130 pound Greenspot testing program?Perhaps with a mouth guard in the mean time.
Did you get permission from any of the few people who are actually working on things...Dave Gills - 2016/09/07 10:42:43 UTC
Done...
...or are you just another lunatic fringer ranting and masking their efforts?Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC
It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things.
Guess you didn't need to use the dental floss for your teeth as most of them were undoubtedly pulled out by this thing before you made the modification.The longer one has small sections of mouth guard sewn onto each piece with dental floss.
Yeah, but in fairness you do it with the same single easy reach. But that was a month ago and Peter's not gonna bother to respond.I got the mouth guard from Walmart.So you have to pull BOTH releases if you get into trouble in the kill zone in order to terminate tow?Peter Birren - 2016/09/06 21:10:54 UTC
...here's what Miller Straud came up with using 2 Linknifes:
- Sounds complicated. Keep It Simple Stupid.Matt Pruett - 2016/09/07 13:29:44 UTC
I currently fly with a linknife. My linknife is attached to the end of the weakest flexi dog leash available. The force on the dog leash is insufficient to actuate the release, and I have removed the parts inside the leash for the locking mechanism so that it is always free regardless of if you hit the button or not. The leash is tied to the inside pocket on my harness. The end result is that the release line always stays straight and in position regardless of my motions.
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/15 23:30:11 UTC
There does tend to be a lot of "Reinventing The Wheel" that goes on when people try to "Build a Better Mousetrap".
This is fine and dandy if you realize and accept that you are quite literally experimenting with your life.
As over the top as that sounds, it's pretty damn accurate.
I get called a wet blanket a lot, and that's ok. But I've seen a lot of my friends try to put themselves in the hospital "experimenting" with this stuff.
Please realize that there are hidden issues with all this stuff.
It is by no means as straight forward as it looks.
Or is he now and forever in a position...Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC
Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.
I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.
The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.
That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.
Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????
Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
Yeah, but first get that short clinic from Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt so's you'll know how to pro tow safely.I do have an RMR as well, I'm not pro towing yet, so I haven't tried it, but I do plan to.
You're quite welcome. You have no idea how happy it makes me to know that SOMEBODY appreciates my work and is motivated by it to help address some of the sport's few remaining serious problems.Davis Straub - 2016/09/05 14:35:33 UTC
A bit cockeyed
http://vimeo.com/68791399
http://vimeo.com/68791399
I linked to this video before but was recently reminded of it by:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34685
Wanted "Winch Tow Release"
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776Gerry Grossnegger - 2016/09/06 2:06:44 UTC
No hook knife?
1. Great minds...Jim Rooney - 2013/07/02 00:34:49 UTC
As for this guy... yeah, where's his bloody hook knife?
Yeah?Davis Straub - 2016/09/06 02:08:25 UTC
I believe he says not.
Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 01:47:57 UTC
As he said he would have to make three line cuts with that three ring circus of his. See the comments at the video web site.
Lin Lyons
At this point, I've had two weeks to think about this, and, If I were to find myself in the same situation again (I won't) I'd do exactly the same thing, but throw my paracute earlier. If I'd have tried to use my hook knife, it would have taken some time to cut both sides of the tow bridle, and then realize that I need to cut my release line as well. After I'd done all that, I'd have had to recover a completely out of control glider. And I wouldn't have had a hand on the control bar.
Tell us about some of your other BELIEFS, Davis.Lin Lyons
Considering using my hook knife, or their hook knife at the winch:
I was trailing a mile of line before they (and I) recognized that there was a problem.
(About twenty seconds later, I was on the ground - there was only time for one recovery attempt.)
That line was coming straight up from the pulley at the far end of the winch line.
Pulling me nearly straight down, across my base tube.
Never having encountered a situation remotely like this, they weren't prepared for it.
They did cut power to the winch, so that the line came off it pretty freely.
However, a mile of line, in air, produces considerable resistance.
Cutting it at the winch would have left me dragging that mile of line behind me.
Plus the mile of retrieval line through the retrieval pully.
That would have made it very hard for me to steer.
(Nearly impossible, actually.)
At that point, I was heading nearly straight down.
My parachute really was the only "guaranteed" option that I knew would work.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10Gordon Marshall - 2016/09/07 02:12:37 UTC
York, Western Australia
wow something as simples a weak link. something as simple as an infallible release and this would have been a non event.
I can see a number of things wrong with this tow.
Why are we towing in prone? clearly the pilot sufferers from PIO and towing in a supine position would elevate this considerably.
A pitch limiter is used to cover for poor teaching technique (this guy didn't need one, his technique is fine)
Donald Hewitt developed a good bridle that distributes the load and yet I guess this group of people don't feel the need.
Radio communication with the tow vehicle?
A release at the tow vehicle?
hook knife?
Thankfully despite all of what he was taught to do he did the right (and only thing left to do) and throw his reserve. well done.
Nobody ever got banned from The Davis Show for being too off-the-scale stupid.Davis Straub - 2003/03/04 02:07:45 UTC
I encourage quality posts, posts that actually help the reader and would be of interest to the readers. I discourage drivel, nonsense and lazy, just hanging around, here-I-am-with-nothing-really-much-to say posts. There are other sites that encourage such behavior, this is not one of them.
The Oz Report forum is not a campfire. It is not a place to hang out with your bud and have a beer while slurring your words. It is a serious forum for pilots who wish to write cogently and engage the intellect of others. It is not for everyone, and not everyone has something useful to contribute.
For the new pilots who come here in your blazing ignorance (and your burning desire for a hint of acceptance), I say, humility is a fine cloak for your obsessive egos. Lurk, listen, read (past issues - using the search function in the Oz Report itself and the other (non Google) search function in the forum), and, if you must, ask questions, without explaining to us first how you know everything already.
I value my reader's time. One way I do this is to discourage readers with nothing useful to contribute from contributing it on the forum. Please, don't post there unless you really have a contribution to make to your fellow pilots. I realize that the forum structure makes it easy to ignore others (unlike the mailing list format), but still, use good judgment.
If you can't, please take those low quality comments elsewhere where I'm sure that they will find a ready audience among those with too much time on their hands.
And you'll note that Gordo doesn't get called by anyone on any of this rot. (For anyone who still needs to understand how mainstream glider forums actually work it's the precise and polar opposite of everything Davis has put in black and white.)Gordon Marshall - 2013/07/02 22:58:18 UTC
where the hell is your damn weak link?????????
only FOOLS tow without one, if you cant tow with a weak link without fear of it breaking go and get proper tow lessons!!!!!!!!
Tandem hang gliding student Arys Moorhead's was...Sergey Kataev - 2016/09/08 09:08:20 UTC
Scotland
Been on that winch in that field, though my experience wasn't nearly as extreme.
After dumping what tension he could he might as well have been reading a newspaper.The "tow vehicle" is a winch located by the launch, and the cable goes through a pulley on the other end of the field.
Operator can't avoid seeing what goes on with the glider, unless a newspaper is more interesting.
Never having encountered a situation remotely like this - a glider unable to separate from the tow, a completely unimaginable scenario for a tow operation, they simply weren't prepared for it. Also weren't prepared for it when it happened again with Nancy Tachibana on 2016/04/01. But if there'd been a flood, shark attack, Ebola outbreak...Never having encountered a situation remotely like this, they weren't prepared for it.
Any thoughts on what the Kelly Harrison / Arys Moorhead video would've looked like before Mitch swallowed the card? The one in which the tandem instructor DIDN'T throw the parachute?Utterly shocked by the video
The deployment was discussed to death which was way more than adequate to cover this issue. If you're really looking for a dearth of comments on parachute deployment:Martin Henry - 2016/09/10 4:27:17 UTC
In the multiple times that I've seen this video posted, I noted that there were very few comments about the deployment.
He was a fuckin' Hang Two STUDENT and managed his end of the rope a lot better than the professional dildo at the other.I'm watched 7-8 seconds of simply trying to get the chute out of the harness... even with some serious inspiration, the pilot knew he was toast and 7-8 seconds went flying by.
Yes Martin. That's "a a lot of time". You've got twice as many "a"s and twice as many "l"s as what's required and proper. "Allot" is a verb that could be used in something like: "That's a lot of time to allot for an emergency procedure like that."Does not sound like much but just do the old "One, one thousand, two, one thousand..." ... that's a allot of time.
Yeah, he should probably go to more parachute clinics. The one he'd had two or three weekends prior had probably gotten a bit stale in his memory by that time. Or maybe his time would've been better spent in a three-string release connection clinic to complement the shit state-of-the-art equipment training from Mission that he'd already paid for.Many people fly with gear like this and think nothing of it, many show up at re-pack clinics every year and do multiple yanks just to "get it out".
Ain't it great how much Davis is constantly doing for this sport! Hell, if it weren't for people like Davis and Jack getting this stuff out to the hang gliding community problems like this wouldn't get properly dealt with and another Mission student might have found him or her self in a similar stuck-on-tow situation. Maybe not at a thousand feet at which he or she would be able to get his or her parachute open in time enough for sixteen seconds of float time. Maybe he or she would only be at three hundred feet with only enough time for him or her to die doing what he or she loved.Still, as rough as the deployment sequence was for this pilot, it did work, so thanks for posting.
Todd Jones:Hook knife comments are also interesting, getting it out, cutting the line, allot of time goes slipping by.
Toleration of off-the-scale stupid motherfuckers like you being tolerated in the sport and on its discussion groups is what gets people killed.Just like a tow that ends in a bad lockout, all you have to do is release... yet we don't. The instinct to fly the glider is strong. To stick to the plan is strong. To not give up the plan, very strong. To commit to an emergency measure our skills are weak. That's what gets us killed.
Give up WHAT control? If you had control why did you toss the silk?I've had two parachute deployments in my life. Of course... both while flying a paraglider . I admit to this day, that it is truly a humbling experience to give up control and ride the silk.
You hadn't had a viable aircraft for a while but, nevertheless, you had CONTROL.Fortunately on a paraglider its not a hard decision. In both of my incidents I decided I had not seen a viable aircraft for a while, so I figured it was time to deploy
Hang gliding industry's fundamental law of lockout dynamics:Of course all the comments about the operator and the release system are true.
Davis Straub - 2016/09/12 14:16:56 UTC
Curved or straightPersonally, with hundreds of launches, I have not had any problem with the smaller blue version of the curved pin barrel release. Thanks to Larry Bunner.Richard Thorp
Texas
I have been laid low with sinusitis for the past week - so thought I would do a release force test on my barrel release - something that I have been wanting to do for a while:
I use the top black one in the picture - I forget the source of it but it is a thin wall aluminum barrel 3/4in inside diameter with a stainless steel curved pin. The tension is limited by a single loop of the fishing line I have used as a weaklink since Hempstead. I do not have a good way of measuring forces - I used a lever and baggage scale. To the best I can determine the weaklink was failing around the 200lbf mark, so all the tests done were probably between 150lbf and 200lbf
Anyway. At this "high" load of 150 - 200lbf, the top black release takes a VERY VERY strong pull to open it. It always opened, but the release force is MUCH higher than I am comfortable with. You have to be sure to grip it properly when releasing. I can really see how a first attempt could potentially fail. It could be helped with a larger diameter ring around it so that if you slide your hand down the line there is a better shoulder to pull against.
I have another barrel release - the lower one with the red line. This I made myself with thick wall Al tube 3/8in inside diameter and a straight parachute pin. This is very similar in geometry to the 'Getof' release I have seen around - and is a design I like. The combination of the straight pin that has a better mechanical advantage and the smaller tube means the release force is much smoother and very easy - 2 fingers can easily operate it.
So - what is the conclusion?. Well this is a personal question of risk tolerance, but for me I feel the 3/4in design is very marginal. I am now not wanting to use it as my primary and have to fight with one hand off the bar to effect a release. I also can see very little sense in using it as a secondary release - secondary releases will be used under high stress situations and often with an unpracticed hand with the release in an awkward position. For approx $10 and 10 minutes work I can make up a much better alternative.
Just food for thought.
Nobody calls them "curved", Davis. When I started in this game there was only one person flying anything else - Yours Truly - so there was no point in using an adjective. I coined "bent" to denigrate the Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey Release when I started pushing sane barrel releases. And the term stuck. And, hang gliding being what it is, "bent" became a desirable attribute, a term indicative of quality and integrity.Davis Straub - 2016/09/12 14:16:56 UTC
Curved or straight
Why didn't you just go up to altitude with a Tad-O-Link, put it in a lockout, and see what would happen? That's how Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden discovered that they don't work when they have too much pressure on them.Richard Thorp - 2016/09/12 14:16:56 UTC
I have been laid low with sinusitis for the past week - so thought I would do a release force test on my barrel release - something that I have been wanting to do for a while.
Genuine Bailey Release. Quest - where they've been perfecting aerotowing for well over twenty years.I use the top black one in the picture - I forget the source of it...
And make sure you don't tell us what it is. Highly classified Industry information. Focal point of a safe towing system. Sure can't have the flying public privy to that kind of intelligence, using solid data to plug into equations making predictions on the ground....but it is a thin wall aluminum barrel 3/4in inside diameter with a stainless steel curved pin. The tension is limited by a single loop of the fishing line I have used as a weaklink since Hempstead.
Yeah. Real bitch doing things right in this game...I do not have a good way of measuring forces...
Two hundred pounds force, people of varying ages, translates to precisely two hundred pounds....I used a lever and baggage scale. To the best I can determine the weaklink was failing around the 200lbf mark...
Dangerously to moderately light for heavier solo gliders....so all the tests done were probably between 150lbf and 200lbf
Yes. DEFINITELY with the quotation marks.Anyway. At this "high"...
Go figure....load of 150 - 200lbf, the top black release takes a VERY VERY strong pull to open it.
I am shocked... SHOCKED! to be hearing this.It always opened, but the release force is MUCH higher than I am comfortable with.
While you're flying the glider with the other hand...You have to be sure to grip it properly when releasing.
That's OK. In Flight Park Mafia aerotowing there's no limit to the number of attempts you're allowed. And even if you simply find it impossible to pry open...I can really see how a first attempt could potentially fail.
Or a...It could be helped with a larger diameter ring around it so that if you slide your hand down the line there is a better shoulder to pull against.
...cored out golf ball over the barrel...Ollie Chitty
i do have a barrel style release but i have corred out a golf ball and that is what i use, its much easier just to "slap and release" rather than trying to find a defined small barrel!
I have another barrel release - the lower one with the red line.
- Go...This I made myself with thick wall Al tube 3/8in inside diameter and a straight parachute pin.
...and was inspired by the work of and developed in collaboration with T** at K*** S******.This is very similar in geometry to the 'Getof' release I have seen around...
- You're welcome....and is a design I like.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3347The combination of the straight pin that has a better mechanical advantage and the smaller tube means the release force is much smoother and very easy - 2 fingers can easily operate it.
Brian Vant-Hull - 2008/06/30 13:48:08 UTC
I, Brian Vant-Hull (hereafter referred to variously as "I" or "me") in the company of James Rooney (hereafter variously referred to as "Jim" or "Rooney" (collectively referred to as "we")) do attest that on Saturday, June 28, I have laid hands upon and inspected, under controlled and numerically repeatable conditions, the barrel release (hereafter referred to as "Tad's Release") constructed by Thaddeus Eareckson (hereafter referred to as "Tad") and have compared it under identical conditions to the 'Bailey' barrel release.
We found that under a load of 194 pounds the Bailey release required a very strong tug (I couldn't do it at first) while Tad's release could be actuated with the friction of two fingers at twice that load. Rooney could actuate the Bailey release immediately, but admitted they practiced this during tandem training, so he knew to wrap his fingers over the top and pull vigorously. I do not believe that if the forces became this strong I could operate the Bailey release with the alacrity required under lockout conditions, but could actuate the Tad release. I won't speak for Jim, but
Under weight of these observations, I do attest that TAD's RELEASE is SUPERIOR to the BAILEY RELEASE and that the BAILEY RELEASE is SERIOUSLY FLAWED UNDER HIGH LOADS.
In witness thereof, I attach my signature and moreover have purchased Tad's release.
Bull fucking shit. It's no more a personal question of risk tolerance than HGMA glider certification. The Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey bent pin Bailey Release is a grotesque and deliberate violation of the standards to which u$hPa agreed to adhere to in order to be granted its aerotow exemption 32 years ago this month.So - what is the conclusion?. Well this is a personal question of risk tolerance...
But if you're a fuckin' gorilla it's perfectly OK....but for me I feel the 3/4in design is very marginal.
But you're still perfectly OK taking a hand off for an easy reach and pull.I am now not wanting to use it as my primary and have to fight with one hand off the bar to effect a release.
Tell me one good reason somebody who goes up on one of these cheap total pieces o' crap shouldn't have his AT rating immediately suspended and any operation that allows one within five miles of a runway shouldn't be ripped to irreparable shreds by the FAA.I also can see very little sense in using it as a secondary release - secondary releases will be used under high stress situations and often with an unpracticed hand with the release in an awkward position.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308For approx $10 and 10 minutes work I can make up a much better alternative.
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC
Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.
I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.
The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.
That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.
Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????
Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
Thought? What fucking cave have you been living in for the past decade or so?Just food for thought.
See? Davis, personally, with hundreds of launches, has not had any problem with the smaller blue version of the curved pin barrel release. So all you've done is create a solution in search of a problem. Easily reachable bent pin Quallaby releases aren't causes of aerotow crashes and fatalities any more than Reynolds Tobacco cigarettes are causes of lung cancer or ExxonMobil petroleum products are causes of global warming. Whenever somebody who sells something tells you there aren't any problems with it you must believe him and behave accordingly.Personally, with hundreds of launches, I have not had any problem with the smaller blue version of the curved pin barrel release.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3659Thanks to Larry Bunner.
Fuck Larry Bunner and the horse he rode in on.Larry Bunner - 2008/12/07 15:42:28 UTC
Tad, man if you could just cut back on the vitriolic statements it might be easier for us to accept what you have to say. I find it difficult to understand your intent. I'd like to upgrade to a better release however if you truly do have one, your rhetoric tends to cloud (in my mind anyway) or distract from the issue to the point where I really don't even want to see what you have to offer.