Re: Releases
Posted: 2011/06/17 21:36:18 UTC
I'd like to say:I have no more reliable and objective datas to give
I haven't ..
A forum devoted to the scientific advancement of hang gliding
http://www.kitestrings.org/
I'd like to say:I have no more reliable and objective datas to give
I haven't ..
And other examples....Well, I can recall a time when having a weaklink was very useful for me, here. If you come off the cart early and hit the ground, you'd like the tow rope to break so that you are not pulled along the ground anymore than necessary.
or01. Sometimes the air does stuff - often, in our areas of concern, as a consequence of a thermal or dust devil - that makes ANY situation with a low hang glider - launching off a ramp, tow launching, or coming in for a landing - unsurvivable.
and you consider at all time it would be better with a stronger wl, point of vue I consider and in wich I'm agree most of time, for the matter of stall recovering, hostile areas surroundings..04. Lockouts commonly hit so hard and so fast that - I don't care who you are or how good your equipment is - you can't react and release before they're almost over.
Yeah no matter, the other side will blow immediately in case of a wrap.. Sorry, I write before thinking !Asymmetrical break of a bridlelink with a long side to the webbing loop
Is that possible? It should be as your shearlink..Bridlelink with an overlap of 3 strands ?
And I'm OVERJOYED to find that somebody who wants to can duplicate them and come within one percent of target on the first try.Happy to have the key now to build bridlelinks...
Thank you. It was as accidental invention....is that your proper genious idea ? If yes, well done !
You really don't need to worry about that....it is advisable to bias selection on the low side.
A "bias" towards the lower number... You would "favor" or "prefer" the Eight over the Nine.I don't understand this word "bias"
Right. That's the way it's supposed to be....with 3 stitches, they can pull through easily. overlap don't stay tight on this side.
Despite what everyone in hang and para gliding would have you believe...I'm 120kg wing loaded : pilot+harness+glider.
Makes things a little neater and it's good if you're going to use the heat shrink Fairings, but... No. IF you do it, however, do it AFTER you do the Strength Stitching because it's a little easier to make sure the leechline elements in the Overlap are evenly loaded. And that stitching isn't at all critical and can be done quickly, easily, and spaced out a bit as you go outboard.Is it necessary to stitch the 2 strands before the eyes too ?
Doesn't matter, not important.On how long (minimum)...
The bastards that run the flight parks over here gear things so they don't blow weak links on their tandems but really don't give a rat's ass what happens to the solos. That damned 130 pound Greenspot makes life pure hell when you're trying to get up an a good day. Relaunches and waiting in line for other people's relaunches.I feel more and more the necessary not to have a failure...
No.So my bridlelink will be stronger...
Real good guy, knows what he's doing and talking about, I think that release will probably be the best you can buy. But I hope you'll build one into the glider - cable always scares me a little bit.Joe Street...
Yeah. I DON'T like that.Our microlight...
1. If they're anything like US operators the answer may be "Because that's the way we've always done it."Actually, I asked for better understanding of the 190kg value and am waiting for answers...
I developed a Shear Link to try to do that:...can you imagine to protect a shear link on the line from the ground...
Steve Uzochukwu said that he could make inserts for whatever you want. If that's not the case I'll bet it wouldn't be too hard for someone to make his own. A strip of steel about the right thickness, drill a hole big enough to put it where you want it.Tost: the one of K.Hammond is 150kg max...
UK - and US - law sucks....(UK law, he said)...
Yeah, but that SHOULDN'T be a reason. My off-the-shelf parachute pin based releases can handle 350 pounds of DIRECT loading (and they're all on an end of a bridle - so around twice that for towline tension) no problem....and limit the force to the confortable release actuation tension before. right?
Too bad. That's a horrible price to pay for some fairly small mistakes. But there's usually more people than just the pilot to share the blame. You have to have SOME training standards in place.But the pilot I knew wasn't really skilled enough and too hurry...
2:1? Two pilots to one glider? Tandem?We didn't practice the 2:1...
Probably not. There's not much defense against diving into the ground - on tow or off. But they're have been other situations in which people were dragged simply because they had no way to abort....don't know about its release but not sure he had time to actuate one.
I don't know how far he was dragged but - ignoring the issue of him being on the cart with inadequate training - I tend not to fault a tug driver as long as he maintains speed and tension, doesn't climb above me, and doesn't squeeze the lever unless he's being jeopardized by having the glider on tow.The matter of being dragged and potentially increase the injury was the reason of this story...
REALLY want to thank me? Get a couple more people adopting this stuff. Really glad you've got the ball rolling.I thank you again for your help...
No, you were right the first time, EXCEPT...I'd like to say...
That was a quote from Davis... THIS Davis:Well, I can recall a time when having a weaklink was very useful for me, here.
...on 2005/02/08 right after Robin was killed when his shitrigged spinnaker shackle release locked up. It would've been too explosive to admit that there were fifty thousand expensive shitrigged spinnaker shackle releases these assholes had put into circulation with the same deadly flaw (and half a dozen other ones) so they launched a huge international campaign to blame his 1.4 G weak link.Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28697Peter Birren - 2005/02/08 19:22:49 UTC
Elk Grove, Illinois
What is the big issue? Re-launching? Oh, the wasted time! Oh, the hassle! Oh, the embarrassment! These are sure preferrable to Oh Shit!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4589
WeaklinksAnd Robin paid the price... is it worth it?Davis Straub - 2005/02/08 17:08:45 UTC
At the moment most competition pilots use "STRONG LINKS."
Fredrik Sandquist - 2010/01/18 18:31:29 UTC
Trondheim
The hg fatality at Hay. The too strong weak link was one of the reason for the fatality according to the official report if I remember correctly.
Another analogy you might want to think about, Antoine...Sometimes there are road accidents where having NO seatbelt saved a life, a body flung from a burning vehicle for example.
I don't see much way it can't be attributed almost entirely to Hewett. Donnell did an absolutely MISERABLE job on towing "theory" - but an OUTSTANDING job on publicity. That Skyting newsletter went out all over the world, including the UK (where, Antoine, it had the effect of burying the much better work Mike and his crowd had already done circa 1979-1982), because he got ONE important thing that made a big difference somewhat right, everybody blindly swallowed everything else in the package - almost all of which was dead wrong.I have my own theories, based on my own experiences in the UK, as to how this teetering dangerous practice seems to have gained worldwide adoption and it has nothing to do with safety or some carefully worked out formula designed to offer the maximum protection.
Like a little chunks of foam insulation breaking off the external fuel tank and gouging the heat shielding during a Shuttle launch.Most of the time a weaklink break has a mild or insignificant outcome, and can be described as a non event.
Definitely? Seems to work either way.This is defiantly...
I don't think it's an "and yet" issue. The VERY safety conscious outfits DEMAND 130 pound Greenspot and the EXTREMELY safety conscious outfits encourage people to fly with it fuzzed up a bit. I think it's more of an "and so" issue.I would consider our club to be a very safety conscious outfit and yet...
Or go to an extremely safety conscious operation - like Ridgely or a competition run by Davis (which is pretty much all of them) - so you don't have to imagine anything.Then look at every launch, look at the first dozen feet or so and imagine a weaklink break at that critical point, see how many hits you get.
Davis Straub - 2005/01/13
Tom Lanning had four launches, and two broken weaklinks and a broken base tube. He made it just outside the start circle.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6670Next time at the towfield count the number of lockouts, the number of falling off the cart instances, the number of times a pilot is dragged down the runway or any other instance where a weaklink break might be said to affect the outcome. The chances are this will be zero.
Tad Eareckson - 2008/10/07 17:46:42 UTC
Ridgely has pulled something on the order of forty thousand tows over the course of its ten seasons. Let's be REAL generous and say that they're only breaking weak links at the rate of one per twenty flights. That's two thousand pops. The percentage of those that were desired and necessary for the safety of the flight is ZERO. So what do we learn from these numbers?
Donnell Hewett - 2008/10/14 00:49:34 UTC
We learn that the weak links are consistently breaking before the situation becomes dangerous, exactly as they are designed and intended to do. If you really want to increase the number of weak link breaks that are deemed "desired and necessary for the safety of the flights", simply increase the weak link break point to 4 g's, or better yet, eliminate the weak link altogether.
Stupid clones. (Speaking as a former longtime mostly stupid clone.)The vast majority of pilots fly without question with whatever their club/organisation give them.
A FEW?However, there are more then a few pilots not happy with the generally adopted weaklink values inherited from the '80s...
There's at least a million.Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
That's 'cause they don't want what happened to Tad to happen to them. They'd rather take a very small chance of getting their necks broken each tow than an almost certain chance of not being able to tow at all....although there are none quite a vocal as Tad.
Are you seeing a trend of weak links gradually creeping up in strength and national organizations revising their regulations to specify sane minimums?In the future pilots will look back at this era...
Almost as soon as they came out......just as we now look back and wonder why we ever flew without tip sticks or other dive recovery devices.
...some people started taking them back off.1980/08/23 - Ronald Higgs - 30 - Raven 209 - Lily Pons Hill - Buckeystown, Maryland
Hang IV flyer, Ron was getting "people tows," with his brother and others slinging him along with a pulley/bridle system. On his last launch, he got better wind, rose at 45 degrees to 100', got into a right hand lockout, then a wingover and dive back into the hill. No defined tips or anti-luff lines on the glider at the time.
Hard to beat a zero percent deviation.I made an another 6+6 which had an asymmetrical break @98kg !
I don't understand all of that sentence but...asymmetrical breack was not what I expected to keep the interest of a bridlelink even more if I build the asymmetrical bridlelink I wanted (to be attached directly to the webbing loop of the harness..)
It's extremely difficult for hang (and para) glider pilots to really understand weak links once their heads have been wired wrong about them - there are only about a half dozen that do. But keep trying....but as we don't have the datas recorded of all wl failure, and it s hard to say peremptorily what should be the issue if.., it's hard to say how many lifes it killed, and how many it saved...
That's it. It's not there to keep gliders from slamming into the ground and/or people from getting hurt or killed.Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
Even these guys get something right once in a while.Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC
Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
This isn't a data thing. This is a thought, logic, physics, understanding thing. But if you want to do data then search the web and find me ONE example of a properly equipped competent pilot - in or out of a thermal or dust devil - saying, "Whoa! It sure was a good thing my weak link blew!"...but as we don't have the datas recorded of all wl failure...
If everyone released before he was in trouble no one would ever get more than ten or twenty feet off the ground. (Kinda like telling people to always get out of the building before an earthquake.)...he should have release before to be in trouble...
ANYTHING that blows in the course of a tow is (was) THE weak link.I'm lying cause it wasn't the wl but the old rope which blow!
So what's the point? That if an incompetent operation sends a pilot up solo on a high performance glider and short towline with a release he doesn't know how to use in strong winds and unstable conditions for his first aerotow you should use a worn out rope that blows at an indeterminate tension below the designated weak link because it MIGHT break at a good time in the course of a lockout that MIGHT be high enough to be survivable?Yes, I'm agree ..unfortunately he did..
That was true 37 years ago, it's still true now - on BOTH sides of the Atlantic.Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
Yeah, that's a pretty good summary of US aerotowing as well....with the clearance of the old president of my club who was thinking himself enough experienced to teach to the other while he is absolutely crap !!
NO!...did you already consider a bridlelink with an overlap of 2 strands only ?
No. If the section of an Overlap is involved in a wrap it won't blow AT ALL - until the leechline itself blows at the retained eye.Yeah no matter, the other side will blow immediately in case of a wrap...
Better late than never. (Most of the people in this game are in the never category.)Sorry, I write before thinking !
No, you've still got Problems One, Two, and a bit of Four from above.Bridlelink with an overlap of 3 strands ?
Yes. If only hang gliding had bothered to understand what sailplaning had figured at the Dawn Of Time we'd all be spending more time flying and less time burying people and fighting for sane practices and equipment.WL and Sailplane AT
Just make sure you don't say anything about light weak links or US flight parks being dangerous.Mike Lake - 2011/06/15 21:47:13 UTC
UKCareful!astronaut - 2011/06/15 13:18:56 UTC
If you are looking for a simple and durable pro tow release I would recommend buying a Koch-2 release from Finsterwalder in Germany.
They have been on they market for years. Are incrediably reliable and sold in millions Never heard anyone complain about them.
They are a bit expensive though, but you get what you pay for
The mention of Koch and trying to make any constructive comparison is likely to get an aggressive response and the thread locked down.
Oh no sorry wrong forum.
Too bad. He was always such a great source of foot shooting quotes. I so do hope he keeps playing Robin to Davis's Batman.Ok then an aggressive response from Mr. Rooney. Oh no, that's not going to happen either.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16384Well then, ok here goes.True, but you only do this once. A one time fix and a one time purchase that you will sell on for a good portion of what you paid for it.Tried that one. Very good and durable system but it is not easy/quick to fix to your harness.In reality Koch or Koch types don't crack ribs or "crush chests" any more or less than any of the other bits of chunky stuff you might land on.Quite a big metal piece, not very advisable if you make a bellylanding once very now and then. Rib cracker.
Maybe it could happen but in the circumstances where this might be an issue I would guess the pilot would be more worried about their face, neck, back or be too dead to worry at all.
This is only a perceived problem and in over 25 years of use I don't think there are any reported instances of a Koch contributing to anyone's injuries where it matters.
It is an almost insignificant downside in comparison to having a release with such a minuscule failure rate that it is, for all intents and purposes, infallible.
1. There is absolutely no documentation of a chest crusher / rib cracker crushing a chest or cracking a rib.Jim Rooney - 2010/03/26 20:54:43 UTC
What do they call them again? "Chest Crushers"?
3. But, strangely, NOBODY refers to a downtube as an arm breaker!Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC
Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
Landing the U2
Prior to the landing flare your body position should be generally upright, but slightly inclined forward, with your head and shoulders forward of your hips and your legs and feet trailing slightly behind. Many pilots make the mistake of trying to get too upright at this stage of the landing, which actually reduces your flare authority and makes it harder to land on your feet. Your hands should be at shoulder width and shoulder height on the arm breakers. You should be relaxed, with a light grip on the bar, and your weight should be fully supported in your harness and not at all by your arms.
There are several options for when to make the transition from prone to this semi upright position. Some pilots favor going upright and moving both hands to the arm breakers while still at altitude prior to the start of the approach. Others transition at the start of the approach to a semi upright position with one hand on an arm breaker and one hand on the basetube, and complete the transition by moving the other hand to the arm breaker just a few seconds prior to flare. Still others fly with both hands on the basetube until established on final glide, and then transition one hand at a time to the arm breakers prior to flare.
Once established on a wings level short final, into the wind, body semi upright and with both hands on the arm breakers, your final concern is the timing and execution of the landing flare.
Yeah, there's much better, cheaper stuff that doesn't involve ANY tradeoffs.There is no other system (one where it is necessary to let go to activate) that releases as quick, as precise or as reliably and with nothing to fly-back and hit you in the face.
It's a trade-off, chunky verses safety.
There are, no doubt, reasons for not using one to aerotow...
...but the 'chest crusher' syndrome is not one of them.
P.S. I'm not a spokesman for Koch and I'm not selling anything.
Yeah, we need to do something about that.Zack C - 2011/06/16 03:14:35 UTC
Houston
I've never aerotowed pilot-only...
Forget understanding - just stand next to the runway and look....but it is my understanding that this configuration pulls the pilot forward significantly, limiting the amount he can pull in further.
This is mostly Skyting mythology. Donnell and his loyal cult members believed that the "center of mass" bridle system pulled the pilot under the leading/high wing, auto corrected, and made lockouts a relic of history. They never figured out that when the pilot is pulled to the left the glider reacts by rolling to the right - leaving everything pretty well centered - and needed to explain why gliders continued to lock out - just not as often, quickly, badly.Similarly, it is my understanding that when the tow line is not centered horizontally in the control frame, the pilot is pulled to the side, limiting the amount he can roll in that direction. The effect is mitigated when the tow force is split to the glider.
in our fatality reports.Bill Bryden - 2000/02
At approximately 125 feet (estimates by observers ranged from less than 100 up to 150 feet), her glider started turning relative to the towline. Observers did not note corrective action by the pilot. The glider turned enough that the tow bridle strongly contacted the flying wires and/or the pilot strongly contacted the control frame of the glider. The resulting lateral force on the control frame pulled the glider into an aggressive lockout. The glider rolled over extremely quickly and dove into the ground in a manner of only several seconds.
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
Soon after lift-off the trike tug and I were hit by the mother of all thermals. Since I was much lighter, I rocketed up well above the tug, while the very experienced tug pilot, Neal Harris, said he was also lifted more than he had ever been in his heavy trike. I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees.
Hay Jim!!!Jim Gaar - 2011/06/16 03:54:21 UTC
Hay Pud!!! (Getting ready to try the 2 stage)
And don't forget the Greenspot so it will always brake soon enough to keep you REALLY safe.Jim Gaar - 2009/09/18 19:23:44 UTC
Hell I've literally shoved the control frame out in front of me to avoid a whack when it got a little ahead of me in a light DW landing, similar to when I've had to slide it in on my belly (did that once after a weaklink brake coming off a launch cart.
There's no such thing as a center of mass bridle and nobody uses three point bridles.The issues you describe can happen as well on the COM or 3 point bridle as well.
Really? I thought you were...I'm with Davis, Zack.
...a Rooney Follower. Oh well, one asshole is as good as the next. Do both if you really wanna do it right.Jim Gaar - 2011/05/26 15:44:33 UTC
I'm a Rooney follower.
Yeah, poorly.It's different yes. One just has to get use to it and compensate for the way a ProTow does it's job.
And, if things line up right enough, your mileage accumulation may totally cease.The main reason for the 3 point is to minimize bar pressure and to help SS wings point at the tow plane. YMMV
Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 05:11:44 UTCIncorrect understanding.Zack C - 2011/06/16 03:14:35 UTC
I've never aerotowed pilot-only, but it is my understanding that this configuration pulls the pilot forward significantly, limiting the amount he can pull in further.Also incorrect.Similarly, it is my understanding that when the tow line is not centered horizontally in the control frame, the pilot is pulled to the side, limiting the amount he can roll in that direction.
There you go.
INCORRECT as in DAVIS just SAID it was INCORRECT. End of story. You DEAF or sumpin'?Zack C - 2011/06/16 12:12:00 UTCIncorrect in that the bar doesn't trim any further aft than when the tow force is split to the keel, or incorrect in that this doesn't limit pitch authority?Incorrect understanding.
Yeah, he's an authority alright. Would've made a great astrologer.Casey Cox - 2011/06/16 12:18:31 UTCThat was told to me by Malcolm Jones just April of this year. I specifically asked this question. I thought he was something of authority since he has acknowledgement in Dennis Pagen books and has an aero park since 1991.Pro-tow is not as safe a tow bridle as a 2 point with aero release.
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT
Individuals such as Donnell Hewett, Dave Broyles, Lars Linde, Mike Robertson, Brad Kushner, Malcolm Jones, David Glover, Greg McNamee, Jan Alda, Alan Chuculate and Bill Moyes have also offered specific information either through their writing or by personal communication.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1143Gregg McNamee - 1996/12
Common sense tells us that the last thing we want to do in an emergency situation is give up control of the glider in order to terminate the tow.
If your system requires you to take your hand off the control bar to actuate the release it is not suitable.
Funny how these positions from THESE authorities never made it into any of Dennis's moronic fuckin' books.Davis Straub - 2006/01/24 12:27:32 UTC
Bill Moyes argues that you should not have to move your hand from the base bar to release.
Why should Davis waste time EXPLAINING things when he can just PROCLAIM them?The release I was referring to is the aerotow release primary:
http://www.blueskyhg.com/products.aspx?Prod=5&Manu=0
I also mentioned that I have not flown with a pro-tow. Please explain your point that a pro-tow is as safe as a two point tow release.
There you go. See, Zack?Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 12:22:26 UTCBoth.Incorrect in that the bar doesn't trim any further aft than when the tow force is split to the keel, or incorrect in that this doesn't limit pitch authority?
And one doesn't suck any more than another - just matters of preferences, opinions, and style.Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 12:31:33 UTCThere are many types of aerotow releases (as you can see from this discussion).
And a math genius as well. If he referred to two how many types would that be? (Take as much time as you need.)The one you refer to is one type.
Right. Everything in hang gliding is just a matter of opinion. Nothing is measurable, quantifiable, verifiable.Well, that may be his opinion, but it is nothing more than that.That was told to me by Malcolm Jones...
Goddam right nothing in hang gliding is safe - mostly thanks to assholes like you.Protow requires more experience and skill and you certainly wouldn't use it as the first method for a new aerotow pilots, but is not less safe (nothing in hang gliding is safe) than the two point method.
Yeah Ann, what's your skill level? How many times have you watched "The Incredibles"? Can you do the Elastigirl thing with your arms yet? How many inches?Casey Cox - 2011/06/16 12:44:32 UTC
I'm not taking up for Malcolm, but now it's your opinion against his. Then you say it takes more skill. To me that is not as safe...my bad...I should have said takes more skill. I do not know Fawkes skill level and I thought it would be safer to suggest a 2 point release vice a shoulder release.
Yeah, just like angle of attack and pitch attitude, tension and pressure. Just different terms for the same things.You are right about releases being called different. Moyes calls the pro-tow (shoulder release) and Areotow release, simply (tow release).
http://www.moyes.com.au/accessories/various/tow-release.html
1. Yeah, like well established Bent Pin and Wallaby releases.winDfried - 2011/06/16 12:51:32 UTC
Germany
Ha, a collision between the European and Anglo-Saxonian towing subcultures here.
Fawkes,
Being in Europe you'd better go with something well established and certified...
1. That's not a barrel release - that's a two stage.This barrel release is as good for static winch tow as it is for aero tow.
http://www.linkingwings.de/shop/link2/link2.html
Klinke Schleppklinke
http://www.linkingwings.de/shop/link2/files/BIGpage49_1.jpg
Damn. Now we have an incident in which somebody DID get hurt by plopping in on one of these things. So now the rabble can - and will - forever jump all over this one while ignoring the shattering of Holly's face and the pulping of Robin's head.One of this kind cracked me a rib last year, when I belly landed on the runway after an early weak link break.
(Hurted a lot, but didn't keep me from flying. Luckily. Don't know how it interacts with a female anatomy?)
I reported the incident and it was published in the DHV-Info.
That's why I use this more convenient and very reliable one for aerotow:
http://www.drachenfliegenlernen.de/shop/schleppzubehoer/ulflash1schleppklinke.php
That's OK, Andreas. I always HAD a fully functional towing release. (If you want something done right then do it yourself.)Andreas Ernst Becker - 2005/06/28 21:40:24 UTC
Hi Tad,
last weekend a pilot had a release with the Flash1 in 4m altitude, just short after take off. He could't manage to get up on his feet and broke an upright (no inruries).
Investigations are running, perhaps the release is too weak, or comes too fast. That's the reason why I won't ship you the Flash 1. You should get a fully functionable towing release.
Dangerous piece o' crap.Kevin Carter - 2006/02/19 09:54:30 UTC
I tried some euro push/pull releases that were total trash a few months ago.
http://ozreport.com/13.238Both are fine, unless you try to aerotow with a (slow) single sail or low level intermediate behind a highly powered trike.
In this configuration you truly would need two point, with a second line split to the keel of your glider, as others have described in this thread.
I also figured, I will need to buy another system, when in need to use own weaklinks as it is apparently common in Australia.
Yeah. Good move, winDfried. Plenty more ribs where that one came from.Adam Parer - 2009/11/25
Airborne Gulgong Classic - New South Wales
Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
How many Gs?(The weaklink in German flightparks is 1.5 meters away from the pilot in the tow rope.)
Good luck.I still have the barrel thing for static winch tow, though.
Good luck.Get up, have fun, W.
Yeah, like a standup landing is just as safe as rolling it in on the wheels - just takes more skill. (Right, Sparky?)Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 13:13:49 UTCNow we are in agreement.To me that is not as safe...my bad...I should have said takes more skill.
Lucky for you, motherfucker.Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 13:16:57 UTC
None of this is certified in the US.
Yeah, thanks.Hang gliding is inherently unsafe.
Whereas in hang gliding applications...Carole Sherrington (psuguru) - 2011/06/16 13:27:04 UTC
South Woodham Ferrers, Chelmsford, Essex
Re: Go DHV certified
Oi!
Don't go calling Americanos, "Anglo-Saxon". Living in the county of the East Saxons, I can tell the difference.
I believe Ann's desire is to have a tow-bridle attached to the glider as well as the shoulders. We call the arrangement she showed "a 3-ring circus". The Koch-alike 2-lever releases are well suited to static tow-lines where you have one bridle above and one below the control bar. With a Funky, she probably would do better when aerotowing with an attachment at the hang-point too.
There's a simple and effective release that paragliders use based on a Wichard spinnaker snap-shackle, although I've used them on boats and don't like them IN THAT APPLICATION because sails can generate so much force, you can't get them to open.
...it's simply not a problem.Ralph Sickinger - 2000/08/26 22:18:20 UTC
After towing to altitude, Sunny waved me off; I pulled on the release (hard), but nothing happened! After the second failed attempt to release, I thought about releasing from the secondary, but before I could move my hand the tug stalled and started to fall; Sunny had no choice but to gun the engine in attempt to regain flying speed, but this resulted in a sudden and severe pull on the harness and glider; I was only able to pull on the release again, while simultaneously praying for the weak link to break. The release finally opened, and I was free of the tug.
---Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 13:38:43 UTC
According to the video Fawkes is protowing. Any of these protow releases/bridles will work.
...which you do when SOMEBODY ELSE'S junk is involved in a fatality, then they ALL "stink on ice".Davis Straub - 2008/04/28 14:24:19 UTC
The Windtech aerotow release is a "three ring" circle with the straps tied to your shoulder tabs and a short string to the "three ring" release. The issues with it are:
1. You have to take your hand off the base bar to grab the string.
2. The string is hard to find being thin, and next to the straps.
3. The three ring circle may not release with a pull on the string if there is no tension other than the weight of the rope on it. If the rope is bowed (which apparently was the case before the accident) then the release may not release.
And, in hang gliding, that's supposed to matter?Zack C - 2011/06/16 14:07:23 UTCReally? I thought the bar being further back was well understood and documented.Both.
When your choices are:For example, this is from Wills Wing's site:(My emphasis. I would guess the statement about lockouts is due to the possible roll authority limitation I previously mentioned.)Towing from only the shoulder attachments without a top release is generally referred to as "Pro tow". The Sport 2, U2s and Talons may be "Pro towed" without a top release, however this method is not as easy as using a two point release as described above. Towing without a top release will cause the base tube to be positioned much further back during tow, the glider will have increased pitch pressure, and lockouts are much more difficult to correct.
I'm just pointing out the disagreement...I don't know who's right.
FINALLY!The next time I aerotow I'll try towing both ways and take some downtube video to compare.
Neither is the relative safety of 'pro towing'. More required control effort, less available speed range - thinner safety margin. PERIOD. Doesn't matter what you're flying, driving, pedaling, sailing, rowing, or paddling.Unlike the relative safety of 'pro towing', the bar position issue isn't a matter of opinion.
The shit you don't recall would fill an encyclopedia.Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 14:29:59 UTC
I don't recall my bar position moving at all with either method.
Then do what you always do - make them up as you go along and ignore, block, and delete the ones you don't like.So we have a disagreement about the facts of the matter.
Here... Lemme tell ya what Wills Wing means:I recall determining the bar position myself (as always).
There is significantly less bar pressure with the 2 point method (if you put the keel connection in the correct location).
Perhaps Wills Wing means the bar position (with the pilot's hands off) would change between the two methods.
Zack's emphasis - since you seem to be a bit slooooow on the uptake.The Sport 2, U2s and Talons may be "Pro towed" without a top release, however this method is not as easy as using a two point release as described above. TOWING WITHOUT A TOP RELEASE WILL CAUSE THE BASE TUBE TO BE POSITIONED MUCH FURTHER BACK DURING TOW, the glider will have increased pitch pressure, and lockouts are much more difficult to correct.
http://ozreport.com/pub/fingerlakesaccident.shtmlBut I tow with my hands on the base tube.
Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 14:33:02 UTC
I think that they mean that you will have to pull in a lot harder (and more) with a protow setup.
Edit... Here it is:Jim Gaar - 2011/06/16 14:58:52 UTC
Check out the launch position with pro tow
Davis here you are at the MWC's...
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Yeah, right. Facts selected, ignored, distorted, buried, blocked, deleted for your reading pleasure.winDfried - 2011/06/16 15:09:02 UTCAllright, BUTNone of this is certified in the US. Hang gliding is inherently unsafe.
as an international hanggliding journalist...
Yeah! DHV RULES! No weak links more dangerous than 130 kg. And if you wanna go even safer - sixty, thirty, whatever. No problem.Your for sure know that in Germany every safety relvant peace of equipment needs to be, to be in use legally for us Trizonesians.Certified?
Exemption: visiting pilots.
As Fawkes apparently is residing for longer, it might hit her.
I don't know if she is located in Switzerland or Germany, maybe both.
Out of these nice peaces of equipment You have pictured here
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22233&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20
I know only the for the last one positively that it is.
to be found here
http://www.dhv.de/DHVonlineDB/source/technicdatareport7.php?lang=DE&equptype=7&templatesetid=-1&idtype=3997&nopr=
Certificate Number "DHV 06-0033-04"
q.e.d. W.
BTW: Searchable tech database on certified equipment (in english) here:
http://www.dhv.de/DHVonlineDB/source/technicsearchpage.php?lang=EN
Sure Ann, if other pilots are doing something in your area it's just GOTTA be right.Casey Cox - 2011/06/16 15:49:40 UTC
Fawkes, I don't understand then why you dont get the same as other pilots in your area.
Sounds to me like it would just make the tow safer... Less likely to dive into the ground or get into high speed oscillations.Zack C - 2011/06/16 15:58:56 UTCRegardless of trim position, if you have to pull in more, doesn't that limit the amount you can pull in further?I think that they mean that you will have to pull in a lot harder (and more) with a protow setup.
Carole Sherrington - 2011/06/16 16:19:38 UTC
Found it!
Ann,
You can obtain the release in the UK from "The Loft" in Sussex.
http://www.theloftworkshop.co.uk/productpage.html
The local club uses The Loft for many a repair or re-pack and their work is of the highest quality.
Yes. You CAN. Kinda like you CAN drive into a telephone pole at sixty miles per hour when you're stone cold sober on a sunny afternoon just as hard as you can when you're drunk as a skunk at midnight in an ice storm.bisleybob - 2011/06/16 16:22:23 UTC
Norfolk
zack i sense you are after information as you may be faced with changing at some point from one to the other.
its no big deal ive aerotowed/towed both ways. having a line on the glider just saves the arms of pilots with single surface gliders being pulled behind fast tugs. faster glider or slower tug then its less needed.
45mph behind a quantum on a target at 10 mins in your arms are pounding. but seriously control is not an issue. and believe me you can PIO just as bad with the line on the glider lol.
Excuse me, I actually DO have a question...to add to debate i have flown with a Koch for 3 years and often crashed on it, ask PUD he has seen me land on my koch and i even bent it once and i didnt feel it at all. but when i press the button them lines are gone no questions.
if you ever see how fast it can go wrong you dont want a faffy release my 2c
bisleybob - 2011/06/16 16:38:39 UTC
it goes wrong this quick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaSK4YJkIlM
Seconds? Plural?Tigouille - 2011/06/16 20:39:51 UTC
Limoges
koch or barrel is ok
not the three rings which came from parachutes
a wichard you might have to shake to release without tension, therefore not so good.
Seconds can be important...
The term "pro tow" was adopted to create the illusion that skill and experience could somehow be counted on to compensate for the decertification of the glider. Analogous to telling people that a three quarter G weak link will compensate for a shitrigged release.Mike Lake - 2011/06/16 21:16:36 UTC
Two point towing (pilot + glider) is different from one point (pilot only) in that a two point tow can offer assistance with both pitch and yaw, so it could be said that two point (being easier on the pilot) is safer than one point. I don't think that statement is stretching the imagination too much.
I think this is why the term 'pro tow' was adopted...
I'd argue that - for the most part - you need to be a LESS active pilot....you need to be a bit more of an active (pro?) pilot.
OF COURSE NOT!!! Davis doesn't sell a two point release. Don't ya think if a two point release made things safer then Davis would be selling one?So two point safer then one point? Yes.
Yeah. That's 'cause the "physics" to back them up never materialized.In reality one point works just fine and despite the fact that this method violates so comprehensively one of the keystones of that holy grail of towing 'The Skyting Criteria' the disasters predicted never materialised.
...but I suspect the only way you can get a face full of metal is to use elastic material for your bridle(s)....and getting a face full of metal.
C'mon Mike... It's gonna end up being whatever Davis feels like saying it is. Why bother?So in that instance two point is safer then one point? No.
Actually...To ordinary recreational pilots the only thing that really matters is ...
Can I release in the shortest possible time in an emergency and not have to play "chase the release activator"?
After watching this kinda bullshit for twenty years I'd hafta conclude that there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that matters to the ordinary recreational pilots or the assholes who "train" and "equip" them.During a fast tow, I noticed I was getting out of alignment, but I was able to come back to it. The second time it happen I saw the tug line 45 degrees off to the left and was not able to align the glider again I tried to release but my body was off centered and could not reach the release. I kept trying and was close to 90 deg.
Jeesh Mike! If those were REAL issues why would people fly with Davis Releases and 130 pound Greenspot weak links?Is the release going to work when I need it to and also not dump me at 50 feet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGPZkrf94D4After release is there any likelihood of anything else snagging or binding the line?
Do I run the risk of getting my teeth knocked out if a line breaks under tension?
Anything else by comparison is just white noise.
Edit... Here it is:Mike Lake - 2011/06/16 22:17:21 UTC
An example of a system that could easily end in disaster.
Does anyone think this OK.
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Oh. So if not anything that YOU ever NOTICE and/or SEEMS to be relevant and YOU have had HUNDREDS of tows without getting killed it's perfectly OK if somebody else does once every ten years or so.Davis Straub - 2011/06/17 00:08:12 UTCNot that I ever noticed.Regardless of trim position, if you have to pull in more, doesn't that limit the amount you can pull in further?
This all seems to be irrelevant. I have had many hundreds of aerotows with and without protows. It's not an issue.
Davis Straub - 2011/06/17 00:11:33 UTCThanks.Davis here you are at the MWC's
Don't seem to have to pull in too much.
That's odd. 'Cause the first thing you say is:Davis Straub - 2011/06/17 00:15:00 UTC
For a report on when the 3-ring circus fails:
http://ozreport.com/toc.php?12.084#1
If you generate enough slack between yourself and the tug to allow the end of the towline to tie itself to your sidewire I'm not seeing that it makes much difference what the hell you're using for a release.Why do I consider the 300' tow rope the proximate cause of the accident?
Because if the rope had been 150' the pilot would be alive today.
Sure ya have, Davis.Davis Straub - 2011/06/17 00:24:31 UTCI, for sure, don't know that. I haven't flown in Germany since I took my very first flight (and the one time I flew the ATOS near Stuttgart). Hasn't been in issue in Austria, Switzerland, Italy, or France....you for sure know that in Germany every safety relevant peace of equipment needs to be certified...
Hard to tell what actual releases are on the DHV site as it's hard to find the pictures.
I've been reporting on releases for years and years.
That's why they just keep getting better and better year after year.Davis Straub - 2011/02/07 19:21:29 UTC
Okay, enough. On to new threads.
PRODUCED? Isn't that a rather dignified term for shoving a bent pin into a chunk of tubing?But most of them are produced in the US...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033...and I have little knowledge of what is used in Germany. I had a Koch, but never used it and certainly wouldn't use it for aerotowing.
Yeah Davis. And we all know what you WOULD use for aerotowing. The problem is that you're also selling it and OTHER people are in danger of getting killed too.Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
Just "a" V bridle? Hmmph.Zack C - 2011/06/17 02:49:08 UTCHere's me towing with a V bridle for comparison.Don't seem to have to pull in too much.
MOST of the time... No.Is the difference significant?
If you open it up to surface towing I can give you a couple more.I don't know, but if I were to hit a strong thermal shortly after lifting off and go skyrocketing above the tug (I know of at least one fatality report that begins that way), I'd want all the pull-in ability I could get.
Why, thank you, Davis.Davis Straub - 2011/06/17 03:42:00 UTC
Zack,
I suggest that you do what you are comfortable with.
Yeah, but the people we REALLY need to be talking to are the ones who've died aerotowing with you in competition. But we can't. 'Cause they're dead.I'm just suggesting that the issues that you raise are not an issue for anyone that I aerotow with in competition.
Okay, enough. On to new threads.
Oh good. You're gonna make up your OPINION based upon other people's OPINIONS. Glad we don't have a bunch of boring engineering standards to sort through.Ann Fawkes - 2011/06/17 13:06:00 UTC
Wow, I am not watching for a while and this thread grew exponential
Going to take my time to read all through and make up my opinion ...
Thanks for all the advise.
Davis Straub - 2011/06/17 13:18:34 UTC
Looks like your original question got answered with a link to where you can purchase your 3 ring circus.
Yeah, we just never discussed anything that didn't stink on ice.Steve Kinsley - 1996/05/09 15:50
Personal opinion. While I don't know the circumstances of Frank's death and I am not an awesome tow type dude, I think tow releases, all of them, stink on ice. Reason: You need two hands to drive a hang glider. You 'specially need two hands if it starts to turn on tow. If you let go to release, the glider can almost instantly assume a radical attitude. We need a release that is held in the mouth. A clothespin. Open your mouth and you're off.
ok ok, I am the latin fellow ! I thought americans would prefer a "s"..datum, data
2 (pilot+glider) : 1 (microlight)2:1?