Releases

[Zack C]

I SO hope that actually happens - frequently. Does that actually happen - frequently?

It does actually happen, but probably not frequently. I've seen maybe two exchanges along those lines.

Boy that was fun.

Glad someone enjoyed it.

Got 205?

Yes, as I use it for surface tow weak links. However, the stuff's always been a bit of a mystery to me. The Cortland stuff is designed to break at a specific tension. I don't know much about sailing but from what I've read about leech line it's not supposed to break so I wouldn't think it would be made targeting a specific breaking point. In hang gliding '205' is always mentioned but I have no idea what that means. And I don't know if the stuff is made by different manufacturers as the only place I've seen it sold is Mojo's (without any reference to manufacturer). How do I know my stuff breaks at the same point as yours?

Want a couple of Number Nines to go with it?

Given my preference for a little more margin over the top, how about Tens instead?

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

I've seen maybe two exchanges along those lines.

All the bullshit messages that we send to people coming into this stupid sport...

Do this so you can assume you're hooked in on launch.

Do that so you can assume you're hooked in on launch.

"Just prior" means no less than five and no more that thirty to sixty minutes.

A weak link is perhaps the most important safety device in the whole operation. It is intended to limit the ultimate towing forces in a towing situation and obviously must be very reliable.

But we don't use them 'cause they're a royal pain in the ass and we got tired of wasting time and crashing.

If they differ by more than ten percent you do not have a reliable and predictable weak link system.

The weak link at the glider end must have a breaking strength that will break before the towline tension exceeds twice the weight of the hang glider pilot and glider combination.

A weak link is an integral part of any towing system in order to prevent overloading and lockouts.

The biggest fallacy in towing is that a weak link will protect you from a lockout.

...

Glad SOMEONE enjoyed it.

Aw, c'mon. A third of the club members who bothered to vote pulled the keep lever. That's pretty good considering:

Your posts are destroying our club.

and the majority is totally evil anyway.

And I'm almost positive that even Martin who, unaccountably, voted to get rid of me enjoyed my participation a whole lot more than his 2010/01/17 winch tow "landing".

The Cortland stuff is designed to break at a specific tension.

Yeah. We just saw how well that worked out, didn't we? (Prepared to apologize in the event your batch of "200" turns out to be from a counterfeit Chinese knockoff.)

I don't know much about sailing...

Work on that. Sailing is about a thousand times better a model for hang gliding than hang gliding is. The glider manufacturers figured that out a long time ago.

...but from what I've read about leech line it's not supposed to break so I wouldn't think it would be made targeting a specific breaking point.

1. You haven't been hanging out with Rooney, have you?

2. No, sailing lines aren't supposed to break. They're made to hold, not stretch, and be thin and light. And the manufacturers would all be thrilled if they were infinitely strong. But they're damn near all made to pretty tight specs and they're damn near all gonna be pretty predictable.

Perhaps just for the benefit of anyone tuning in late...

The ONLY reason we're concerned with accurate predictability concerns the primary/secondary weak links spread and getting as much edge as safely possible in the event of a primary bridle wrap. Otherwise we're just trying to get way the hell above 130 pound Greenspot while staying below the point at which the glider starts feeling serious pain. That's a HUGE target and you're pretty safe anywhere inside of it.

Other than that ALL of the people who obsess about accuracy, batches, types of knots, and Dragonfly engines and throttle settings are TOTAL IDIOTS.

http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks

Davis Straub - 1999/06/06

A few weeks later I was speaking with Rhett Radford at Wallaby Ranch about weaklinks and the issue of more powerful engines, and he felt that stronger weaklinks (unlike those used at Wallaby or Quest) were needed. He suggested between five and ten pounds of additional breaking strength.

Ya shoot for one and a half Gs and if you're off half a G either way it's not that B an FD.

In hang gliding '205' is always mentioned but I have no idea what that means.

Pound.

And I don't know if the stuff is made by different manufacturers...

I've ONLY seen it come from Bainbridge International - formerly Howe & Bainbridge - Aquabatten Dacron Leechline, 5/64 inch, E335. (And trust me, I did a lot of panicky searching after getting caught short when my wonderful little Viking Boat Supplies closed its doors five years ago.)

...as the only place I've seen it sold is Mojo's (without any reference to manufacturer).

http://www.fisheriessupply.com/productdetail.aspx?iid=H/B%20E332&cid=14982

I got a thousand foot spool from them for seventy bucks early 2007. (At this point I'm guessing it's gonna last a lot longer than I will - especially since Ridgely decided it really didn't wanna split it with me after all.)

I note they're specifying a 225 pound tensile strength but it's still E332 and I'll wager a couple of hundred feet that it tests the same.

How do I know my stuff breaks at the same point as yours?

Still got my address?

Given my preference for a little more margin over the top, how about Tens instead?

Nines. 125 percent. That's a BEAUTIFUL spread. Don't mess with beauty. It's so cool watching a bridle wrap (which yours won't) and KNOWING that you won't hafta do anything and be off before you can blink.

And just to put things into perspective...

Let's say the Bridle Link ten pounds before the Primary Weak Link - which we're calling 260 pounds.

Your potential problems can't even begin until the towline tension hits 435 - that's WELL over three times normal.

You're probably never gonna see that. I've beaten the 130 pound Greenspot well into a HORRENDOUS lockout even with a pretty sluggish response.

And if you're flying behind a Dragonfly you're probably gonna have the rope well south of that point anyway. Even 130 pound Greenspot clones pull that trick often enough.

If you DO blow the Bridle Link the Primary Bridle's gotta wrap. I'd call that probability remote - probably WAY less than one in a hundred. (If you reversed ends I'd call it just about impossible.)

If you've made it through those hoops you've still got your hand in the trigger loop of a release that I think is gonna be a lot more effective than Matt says it is in the owner's manual.

You've got way better things to keep you awake at night than all those things lining up - 'specially since there are still hundreds of morons out there with cheap crappy bridles regularly using their secondary releases as backups and undoubtedly a few still using them as primaries - and we're not hearing about them crashing and burning.

[Zack C]

A weak link is perhaps the most important safety device in the whole operation.

Hewett?

Aw, c'mon. A third of the club members who bothered to vote pulled the keep lever.

I wasn't referring to the discussion as a whole, but rather the meta-discussion, which is what I thought you meant by 'seeing how fast I could get kicked off'. I suspect everyone that voted to keep you hated that part because it was interrupting the real discussion.

You haven't been hanging out with Rooney, have you?

Why do you ask? Coming from you, I'd take that as an insult.

I've ONLY seen it come from Bainbridge International - formerly Howe & Bainbridge - Aquabatten Dacron Leechline, 5/64 inch, E335.

Hmmm...Mojo's says their stuff is polyester (same diameter).

If you DO blow the Bridle Link the Primary Bridle's gotta wrap. I'd call that probability remote - probably WAY less than one in a hundred. (If you reversed ends I'd call it just about impossible.)

So it's much more likely to wrap from the bottom and the consequences are potentially much worse. Sounds like a case for having a wider spread to me...

Still got my address?

OK, I'll send some. Let's hold off on the Bridle Links until you test it.

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

Hewett?

Hewett paraphrased by Dennis on Page 258 of Performance Flying.

I suspect everyone that voted to keep you hated that part because it was interrupting the real discussion.

I actually hated that part too but I got some totally unprovoked and really nasty attacks as soon as I stepped through the door that most of the participants seemed perfectly OK with. I'm never happier than when I'm engaged in a REAL discussion with a REAL person but if I'm getting shot at I'm gonna shoot back - a little more slowly and with MUCH BETTER aim - 'cause I've never seen a downside to not doing so. Hang gliding is a religion, you say anything against its foundations, you're gonna get excommunicated anyway. So what the hell.

And you were about the only person engaging me in the real discussion. I asked both of your tug drivers a bunch of questions about what they thought weak links were supposed to be doing for them and a few other towing questions and never heard back. And I know that Gregg at least partially gets it.

Coming from you, I'd take that as an insult.

It WAS an insult - but directed at Rooney, not you. Sorry I phrased it that carelessly.

Both of us want to hit very narrow targets but for ENTIRELY different reasons than damn near everybody else. And I'm just totally overloaded with people obsessing over batches and knots trying to stay within three pounds of fresh 130 Greenspot 'cause that's the ideal lockout, stall, and tug protector for all solo gliders.

Mojo's says their stuff is polyester (same diameter).

Polyester and Dacron are synonyms. I'm sure it's off the same spool.

So it's much more likely to wrap from the bottom and the consequences are potentially much worse. Sounds like a case for having a wider spread to me...

1. If you fly two point with a finger on the trigger and a release that works - even with a mediocre bridle - statistically it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to get killed aerotowing. Roy Messing may be the only thing resembling an exception to that rule and he was using that Lookout job that you've gotta pull two to four times to have a reasonable chance and Whitewater put a lid on that situation worthy of al Qaeda.

2. "Much more likely" may mean the difference in the chances between getting killed by a tiger in your driveway when the circus is in town versus getting killed by a tiger in your driveway when the circus isn't in town.

3. My own system is based on the assumption and confidence that my primary release is 100.000 percent reliable so I don't worry about a bottom end wrap 'cause the bottom is NEVER gonna come loose first.

4. Maybe I'd call your primary 99.95 percent.

5. I don't think there's any less probability of an Eleven or Ten blowing before the 205 than a Nine.

6. I think the threat of a top end wrap and the Bridle Link holding is bigger than that of either a primary release failure or out of sequence weak link failure ending up in a bottom end wrap. And I think they're all microscopic.

7. If you wrap the top end it will most likely occur when the tension is high and if the Bridle Link holds a hand is gonna hafta come off the bar and grab a barrel.

8. If I were going up on your glider with your release I'd use 205 at the top and a Nine at the bottom.

9. But if I can't wear you down I'll send you Tens - or Tens and Nines - or a Ten and a Nine.

OK, I'll send some.

If you don't have any use for the Number Eights you can send them back and I'll just swap them for whatever you do.

[Zack C]

Hewett paraphrased by Dennis on Page 258 of Performance Flying.

I asked because I was hopeful no one in this age still subscribed to that mentality. And yet just today I was at TowMeUp and read this:

Weak Links - Probably the most important item in any tow system.

Geez, people...how could the weak link possibly be more important than the release??

...if I'm getting shot at I'm gonna shoot back...

I don't mean to suggest you weren't justified in what you wrote. Your posts were excellent (you sure tripped me up).

...with MUCH BETTER aim...

Certainly...except when you start calling people assholes and fucking morons. (Oh great, here we are discussing your approach, the very thing I just talked about hating...) Just saying...I think your attacks would be more effective if you left out the name calling.

Polyester and Dacron are synonyms.

Doh...

I mailed some of my 205 today. I also remembered Gregg gave me some of TowMeUp's 250 lb material a while back and included some of that as well. It may work better. It looks similar but a little thinner.

If you don't have any use for the Number Eights you can send them back and I'll just swap them for whatever you do.

I'll hang onto them for now. They're what I'm currently using and I'm still evaluating weak link options.

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

I asked because I was hopeful no one in this age still subscribed to that mentality.

EVERYBODY AND HIS DOG STILL SUBSCRIBE TO THAT MENTALITY!!! They get it drilled into them on Day One and it NEVER STOPS.

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

A weak link is required that will not break needlessly in response to moderate thermals, or pilot inputs, yet will break at a low enough point to avoid disaster or excessive pilot panic.

When you understand the true purpose of USHGA and the Flight Park Mafia, part of that sentence actually makes perfect sense.

Steve Kinsley - 1996/05/09 15:50

Personal opinion. While I don't know the circumstances of Frank's death and I am not an awesome tow type dude, I think tow releases, all of them, stink on ice. Reason: You need two hands to drive a hang glider. You 'specially need two hands if it starts to turn on tow. If you let go to release, the glider can almost instantly assume a radical attitude.

Everybody and his dog understands that and is scared shitless of the thought of having to stop flying the glider while fighting a lockout (or having to pull four times on his Lookout release to get it to work while he's locking out).

So the flight park tells the student:

If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

then sells him a Wallaby release and a Bailey or two, GIVES him a FREE 130 pound Greenspot placebo, and sends him up. Excessive pilot panic prevented! Just normal pilot panic and only for the last couple of seconds of his life when it's too late.

Joe Gregor - 2004/09

2004/06/26 - Mike Haas - Advanced - 53 - Litesport 147 - W 5 mph, thermally - Hang Glide Chicago - Cushing Field - Sheridan, Illinois

Highly experienced mountain pilot aerotowing a newly-purchased glider experienced a lockout at low altitude. Witness reports indicate that the glider began oscillating immediately after leaving the launch dolly. The weak link broke after the glider entered a lockout attitude. Once free, the glider was reportedly too low (50-65' AGL, estimated) to recover from the unusual attitude and impacted the ground in a steep dive. The pilot suffered fatal injuries due to blunt trauma. There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release. Reports indicate that this was possibly only the second time the incident pilot had flown this new glider (a replacement for a smaller Xtralite 137), and that the previous flight had taken place at a foot-launch site. The pilot's last reported aerotow flight at this site took place in October of 2003.

Then you get a USHGA / Flight Park Mafia stooge to write the fatality report and divert everybody's attention away from the facts that the victim had no chance of getting to the release when the shit hit the fan and the weak link not only failed to break before he got into too much trouble but may have actually been the primary cause of him getting into too much trouble - and panicking excessively.

You get everybody focused on what a non current, incompetent loser this guy was. You talk about how he apparently made NO ATTEMPT to release and was unable to capitalize on the FREEDOM FROM TOW the weak link GAVE him.

Then eleven months later you do THE EXACT SAME THING to Holly - and write a Russian novel's worth of speculation and opinion on the dangers of one point aerotowing.

(Stunning as it may seem, Steve and Joe are best flying buddies.)

And yet just today I was at TowMeUp and read this...

And four sentences later in that same paragraph you read this:

Typically a weak link that breaks at 75% of your inflight load is desired.

FOR PARAGLIDERS FERCHRISAKE!!! I wouldn't DREAM of going up on one of those things at a pound less than twice that.

And Stu has helped me beat up on assholes like Peter Birren and the BHPA.

Geez, people...how could the weak link possibly be more important than the release??

This is like the attendant on your United New York to London trip telling you that your key to a safe flight is your floating seat cushion.

...(you sure tripped me up).

I rescued you from a religious cult.

...except when you start calling people assholes...

With the respect to the people on that wire...

I called EVERYBODY an asshole ONCE...

Right. You assholes kill 1.5 Hang Twos in the space of less than six months and I'M an absolute nutter with no credibility.

...but I mainly just meant Nate Wreyford and the other assholes who were letting him get away with that statement.

I also said to Chuck:

Well maybe if I didn't hafta deal with all the artists and disruptive assholes with no possibility of understanding the conversation all the time there'd be a higher ratio of good ideas to jousting in the presentation.

That was also about Nate and the other kids who drank all that heavy metal contaminated well water all those critical years.

I referred to myself as an asshole THREE times.

...and fucking morons.

I'd like to know one single half-baked reason from any of the freakin' morons who've been involved in foot launch towing for any or all of the past thirty years why they don't use a double lift and tug as THE UNIVERSAL AND ONLY ACCEPTABLE *GO* SIGNAL.

That was about the best example of me calling anybody in the group a moron - fucking or celibate.

I think your attacks would be more effective if you left out the name calling.

I used to - but I'd always get banned anyway and I'd always regret having left out the name calling.

(Still pissed at you for getting in my line of fire when I was about to take out David Hayner. Spent about an hour reaming him a new asshole and you got in just before me saying EVERYTHING I had just written - 'cept way too nice.)

It looks similar but a little thinner.

I'm starting to trust thicker more.

They're what I'm currently using and I'm still evaluating weak link options.

Don't EVALUATE options... Just do what you're told - the way things work at Ridgely, Lookout, and Columbus, 'cept with me this time.

[Tad Eareckson]

Aviation Depot

Weak Link Material: 205 leech line (20 feet)
T30008T
$2.00

Polyester braid rope is perfect for weak link ties. The 205 size is for most pilots. 5/64 in. diameter, sold in 20 foot lengths.

Bullshit. Partially anyway.

The 205 size is for most pilots.

1. How wonderful they can predict that. No matter what you're flying, what you weigh, or how you're configured this is probably for you. On the end of the towline, as an extension of the tow ring loop on a three-string, or at an end of a one or two point bridle you're probably good with this stuff.

2. The 130 size is ALSO for most pilots. So I guess it's just a matter of color preference.

5/64 in. diameter...

No. 3/32 in. diameter.

VERY INTERESTINGLY, however, it blows at a little LESS than REAL 5/64.

Compare this stuff to the Bridle Link Base material - which is 3/32 allegedly 350 pound Dacron leechline from E.L. Wood Braiding Company through the Rope Warehouse. Same diameter, slightly different weave.

Eighth inch AmSteel Bridle, Barrel Release, Fisherman's Knot, Double Lark's Head.

First test, 248 pounds, blew at the release (pin).

Reconfigured to engage a larger round pin. Blew five pounds SOONER at one of the bridle exits. So much for the pin thickness. (I've had this happen before.)

Tested a loop of my stuff (back engaging the Barrel Release). 259 pounds, at a bridle exit.

The TowMeUp 250 did 274 at an exit.

Zack C: "Is it OK if I use this 350 for my weak link?"

Head Trauma: "NO WAY, MAN! I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot."

Zack: "How 'bout this 205? It's a lot thinner. Blows forty-one percent sooner."

Head: "Nuthin' doin'. One G Greenspot or pack it up."

Zack: "How 'bout this Redspot? It's just like Greenspot 'cept it's red. I need to use it 'cause I'm partially colorblind and can't distinguish Greenspot from Grayspot."

Head: "Well... Alright."

The Redspot gives your glider (Sport 2 155) 1.54 Gs and a Number 10 Bridle Link would give you a 31 percent margin. (The Nine falls a bit short at 18.) That combo is pretty damn good and would make us both reasonably happy.

Awaiting your instructions.

P.S. You can get adequate sized loops with lengths of 150 millimeters for the 3/32 leechline and 130 for the Redspot.

(And it would be good to properly identify the Redspot.)

[Zack C]

With the respect to the people on that wire...

I wasn't referring to HHPA in particular.

Thanks for testing the samples. What do you make of the fact that a loop of Redspot breaks at a force a good bit higher than its rating? This is consistent with what TowMeUp says but not with your results breaking the Cortland stuff. I wonder if that's because IGFA line has to break at or below its rating.

Awaiting your instructions.

OK, send me a couple of Tens. I'd still like to hold on to the Eights, so lemmie know what you want for the Tens and I'll PayPal it over.

(And it would be good to properly identify the Redspot.)

Not following you there.

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

Thanks for testing the samples.

Happy to. It's a lot more of a pain than people who never test anything - like flight park operators - realize, but I love having data points.

What do you make of the fact that a loop of Redspot breaks at a force a good bit higher than its rating?

1. We're not getting its rating from a primary source - although it's undoubtedly what Stu says it is.

2. I can't properly test its rating. All I can do is test what it does in a particular configuration and make a pretty good educated guess what the material's breaking strength is.

This is consistent with what TowMeUp says but not with your results breaking the Cortland stuff.

It's reasonably consistent with all the Cortland stuff I've played with save for the suspicious spool of alleged two hundred of yours.

I wonder if that's because IGFA line has to break at or below its rating.

1. I know nothing about IGFA but if it's gonna be an issue in competition it's gonna hafta stay within close tolerances on BOTH sides of the target.

2. All a line manufacturer can do to hit a rating is strive for consistency in production. And our flavors of two hundred are anything but consistent.

OK, send me a couple of Tens.

Will do.

Not following you there.

Need a manufacturer and a real name. I'm REALLY liking that stuff as a one-size-fits-all and really not liking that we only have one source for it.

[deltaman]

Hi
I'm back after reading part of mousetraps and working on a barrel release for a one point use and expect to do a remote one soon.
I'd like to know, Tad, and maybe it's hidden somewhere on this forum (sorry too lazy to read everything), why you suggest a 60° angle for the primary bridle ?
I tested wl (the famous 130lb) on similar configuration than real (V-bridle) on a machine and realize how the angle (so the length of the bridle) can modify the necessary force to blow them.
With 60°? I think it s a compromise to not have snag too often?.. But with less than 60°, you reduce the force on the release and the effort to release that I could appreciate cause..
I recently had trouble with the GTR release from LMFP. After loosing one screw (dont know why, it s new !?) and replace it (another tandem pilot do that) by an another but a european one (which needed a new hole with a drill), the release become harder to activate and dangerous with higher load than usual !!
Other: we have a 4mm Vectran as a primary bridle and saw recommandation thicker.. what do you think ?
Thanks to help.