launching

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33358
Does VG affect sink rate?

Robert Kesselring - 2015/09/03 10:25:52 UTC

Lower stall speed and better glide ratio sound like exactly what I'd want for a flat slope launch to get me off the ground sooner and further away from it sooner. I wouldn't want to launch with full VG because that would be a very bad time for an accidental stall.

As opposed to a deliberate stall. Sometimes when things are going south you wanna deliberately stall the glider 'cause stalls are totally benign and mere inconveniences. ALWAYS the better option to trying to fix a bad thing because you don't wanna start over. Why else would we all be using Davis Links to convert climbs with anything over minimal thrust into stalls by predetermination?

What are your thoughts on using 1/4 to 1/2 VG for flat slope launches?

Tormod Helgesen - 2015/09/03 10:55:54 UTC

I always use 1/4-1/2 for launch. The wing lifts sooner and pitch pressure is less. Gets you off earlier with less tendency to pop the nose.

NMERider - 2015/09/03 14:07:51 UTC

I use 1/4 VG religiously for flat slope launches. It's critical to avoid stalling a tip and roll authority is also of paramount importance. If you can't get safely airborne in this configuration then you may want to think about not launching until conditions permit a safe takeoff with 1/4 VG. Different gliders may vary with the affect of different VG settings. I use this on my Sport 2 155 and T2C 144.

Show me some videos of relevant problematic dolly and platform tow launches. Show me slow climb-outs, nose pops, stalls - full or tip, worries about VG settings and wind shifts, shallower slopes.

For light air shallow slope foot launches we are operating at the EDGE of our capabilities. Trip, stumble, failure to maintain proper pitch with glider level, air shifting to cross or tail - we can be instantly FUCKED. Full available power is marginal as all hell - gets us to two or three miles per hour over stall speed then we lift off and pray everything keeps going right or the slope starts dropping away fast.

Stationary winch, truck, boat, aero... We've got POWER...

10-03323
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2928/14397296584_1d0e5e389b_o.png


...coming outta our ASSES.

Course just about all you hear from the hang gliding establishment is how much more dangerous than slope launching towing is due to all the "complexity" of the latter.

And the towing industry can't breathe a word of this MASSIVE selling point 'cause since the beginning of time all these total fucking assholes have been...

Jerry Forburger - 1990/10

High line tensions reduce the pilot's ability to control the glider and we all know that the killer "lockout" is caused by high towline tension.

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

A weak link is the focal point of a safe towing system.

Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JByP6Crvrx4
Tandem Hang Gliding - Passenger Hook-in and safety procedures for winch-tow

Mike Robertson - 2012/07/12

And we take off with this... We call it a weak link - many people would call it a fuse... And that fuse is all we need to tow us up. And if anything ever happened that got us over-tensioned that would just break - and we'd be free flying, which is just what we like.

... painting all this power they have at their disposal as the enemy and their magic fishing line - which...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC

You will only ever need full throttle for the first fifty feet of a tandem tow. Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.

...prevents transmission of all but a small percentage of said power - and ultra safe drivers poised to fix whatever's going on back there by giving us the rope as our only hopes for more than extremely short term survival.

In slope launching you fix just about anything that's going on by pouring on more power and speed, in tow launching you fix whatever's going on by abruptly chopping it yourself or having it abruptly chopped for you by a stupid piece of fishing line or an even stupider safe driver.

Go to an aerotow operation with 914 Dragonflies that's brought in low powered / climb rate tugs to help out with a fly-in or competition and see how many people are fighting to get in line behind the 35 horsepower stuff. That percentage will match up pretty good with the people asking the meet heads if it's OK to use safer weak links.

Talk to some of my old asshole buddies from this neck of the woods. Ask them when they're more scared - at the top of the Woodstock slot with five miles per hour coming straight into the slope or on the cart at Ridgely with a five mile per hour switchy tail.

These motherfuckers have painted themselves into a corner from which they'll NEVER be able to extricate themselves. They'll never be able to use their most obvious and indisputable selling point to their advantage without having to totally refute all the crap they've been pouring down our throats for decades and thereby totally destroying whatever vestiges of credibility they're still trying to perpetrate.

[Tad Eareckson]

A further thought on this...

There is no sane argument that we don't fervently desire about as much power/speed as we can get on takeoff whether we're launching from a dune, slot, shallow slope, ramp, cliff, runway. When they're getting fighters off of carriers they're using nuclear power to steam into whatever wind they've got, a steam catapult, and the fuckin' afterburners.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/FA18_on_afterburner.jpg/1024px-FA18_on_afterburner.jpg


The "pilot" is a goddam passenger until after he's safely airborne.

Hang glider dolly launch... Tons of power to reduce roll time, get a crisp liftoff, climb out as quickly as possible. So far we're on the same page.

Then we throw in a Rooney Link...

Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

A properly designed weak link must be strong enough to permit a good rate of climb without breaking, and it must be weak enough to break before the glider gets out of control, stalls, or collapses.

...to increase the safety of the towing operation BEFORE THE GLIDER GETS OUT OF CONTROL.

High power takeoff then maximize the likelihood of an instantaneous total failure. Somebody name me a system that we could devise more idiotic and insanely dangerous than that (aside, of course, from the Dragonfly tow mast breakaway and its protector) and still get tens of thousands of people to USE IT - for DECADES.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V885XNo7huQ

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44051
Dinosaur behind the scenes

Davis Straub - 2015/09/09 13:25:18 UTC

So great of Terry, Chris and JZ to sponsor this event with significant prize money

(This article was written last week.)

First of all it is great to see that Terry and Chris were willing to put on a competition and guarantee $10,000 prize money in open class. Then Terry got JZ to put up $5,000 for sport class and I thought that that was great. Terry and I had many many discussions about running a competition last year before he made the final decision and Terry was in contact with me repeatedly since last October when the submission went to the USHPA competition committee right up to the start of the competition. He very much wanted me to come to competition.

In addition, I mentored Timothy Ettridge on scoring with the FS system (I've used it a number of times previously) and then I helped him throughout the competition as issues arose.

What I want to make perfectly clear is that I have done everything that I could to help Terry with this competition.

When Terry first proposed the competition at Dinosaur I was skeptical. I had flown there at the Nationals in 1990...

(http:/ozreport.com/docs/Cloudsuck2.pdf)

...and 1993 and knew that the monsoonal season brought cu-nimbs, lightning, rain, and 18,000'+ cloudbases. Terry was proposing to do it later in the summer, assuming that the monsoons had passed.

Still while Terry very much liked Dinosaur, I did not. I didn't like the right most launch. I didn't like the iffy launch conditions that often happen at hill-side launches. I didn't like having to bundle up for the very cold temperatures at 18,000'. I didn't like having to carry oxygen (although I love the stuff and would even start it at 8,000'). I did not like the long drive to launch. The town completely sucked.

Since the late 90's starting with the competitions in Hearne, Texas I had seen the great advantages of having major competitions in lower elevations over flat lands. Texas has the best and most consistent summer flying weather in the country. While aerotowing is required to get pilots high enough to start competing, the rewards after the tow can't be matched any where else.

With the advent of major competitions in Texas, Florida, then Georgia, Maryland, and Arizona, the US hang gliding competitions had definitely changed, in my estimation for the better. By far the better. Less drastic temperature differences between launch and cloud base. Smoother air. Easier retrieval. Safer conditions. More comfortable clothing in the harness. No need for oxygen. Nicer feel for the control bar with thin gloves. Safer and more consistent launch conditions. The ability to launch in any direction. Many more flying days per competition. Just an overall better flying experience. (Should I add my specialty, flying barefoot.)

Of course, we gave up some of the spectacular western scenery. The sense of daring do that comes from foot launching in iffy situations. The search for appropriate landing areas near passable roads. And the excitement of landing in extreme conditions. We were real cowboys then.

Despite my significant misgivings I completely supported Terry in his efforts running at no cost his ad in the Oz Report. Publishing his many articles. Mentoring him time after time with my advice on issues too numerous to count. I also helped Tim with the scoring.

Perhaps I have done a disservice to the competition hang gliding community by keeping my misgivings to myself and not trying to discourage Terry (it seemed like that would have not done any good, anyway). I feel that we have evolved and what Terry was trying to do was a throwback to an era that we needed to get over. I felt that it was absolutely the wrong thing to do, but was more than willing to let pilots prove me wrong by signing up in droves to attend and support the type of competition that they wanted. They didn't.

This year we had relatively poor weather in Big Spring. We flew eight out of eight days. Next week we'll fly in Casa Grande, a site with weak to moderate lift conditions (unless we make it to the mountains). We fly in Maryland, a site with weak to moderate lift conditions (and poor conditions this year) and we fly there because it is fun and Highland Aerosports has a flight park there and they put on the competition. We have moderate to good conditions in Florida and Georgia. We expect great conditions again in Big Spring in 2016. We should have more competitions in Texas, that is where the flying is by far the best.

Thanks again to Terry, Chris and JZ for your contributions to the sport. We need all the enthusiasm that we can muster.

And...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

...ever since everybody became happy with the Tad-O-Link and the Davis Link was flushed into the sewer of history where it belonged the safety of the towing operations was radically decreased and inconvenient coincidences became things of the past.

Fausto - 2015/09/10 03:24:32 UTC
Ecuador

Do you imply that European comps are still dueling in the past? As well as Brazilian comps? While I do agree that flatland comps are more convenient...

They are now. You're welcome...

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

...and fuck Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and his droves of ass kissers.

...mountain comps are very much valid today albeit requiring more take off and landing skills probably...than flat / low land flying.

Davis Straub - 2015/09/10 06:05:00 UTC

Nope. This is particular to the conditions and geography of the US.

But I did notice that Andradas was as big a bust as Dinosaur during the same week.

Suck my dick, Rick Masters in particular and California in general.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44058
Terry responds again

Terry Reynolds - 2015/09/10 05:30:42 UTC

First, let me reiterate: I believe Davis to be an honest man.

I believe you've got your head stuck several miles up your ass.

He believes what he says to be the truth. However, in the Oz Report he presents facts in a way frequently colored by his usually negative viewpoint. Reporting can be upbeat and positive without straying from the truth. Davis does not get negative feedback; nobody wants to be made to look bad in the Oz Report, read daily by most of the best English-speaking hang glider pilots in the world. I doubt he recognizes that he wields his power like a bully.

Un fucking believable. See above.

Davis makes no bones about hating Dinosaur though he hasn't been there for twenty years. He has learned a lot since he flew into a gust front to land, got flipped over backward, beat up and pinned under his glider (http:/ozreport.com/docs/Cloudsuck2.pdf).

Where's a good pack of half starved coyotes when you really need one?

It was a bad day.

Yeah. No coyotes.

That was before tasks were stopped. Pilot's safety relied on their individual judgment. Every pilot has made mistakes in judgment, but that does not justify bad-mouthing the place for twenty years.

As to iffy footlaunch conditions, the launch winds at Dinosaur are almost always straight in, regardless of the prevailing wind. As for the negative comments on footlaunch in general, at least the hang glider pilot is in control.

'Cept when he isn't.

Ever been at a tow meet where the wind is cross on the runway...

2015 ECC. Not a big problem. As soon as the Safety Committee sees somebody break his neck on a lockout on launch they shut things down.

...invisible "dust devils" are rolling through...

Undetectable 'cause they always use invisible windsocks and runway streamers at these events. Ya do that so's you can blame all your fatalities on invisible "dust devils".

...you draw an under-powered tug...

Oh. So power on launch is a GOOD thing? And here I was thinking that...

Jerry Forburger - 1990/10

High line tensions reduce the pilot's ability to control the glider and we all know that the killer "lockout" is caused by high towline tension.

...the killer "lockout" was caused by high towline tension and we used special precision fishing line to keep the power from getting high enough to permit us to get out of control.

...or a terrible pilot?

They're ALL terrible pilots. Took those fuckin' douchebags decades to figure out that long track record fishing line that blows six times in a row in light morning conditions and always at the worst possible time, with the glider climbing hard in a near stall situation was actually NOT increasing the safety of the towing operations.

If camping out under incredibly bright stars with scenery others drive thousands of miles to enjoy doesn't inspire you, apply all the money you saved not paying for tows to softer accommodations.

Make sure to include dollar figures for the time you spend getting to launch, shuttling vehicles, relights when you're doing the math.

I differ with the opinion that having U.S. comps all being tow meets is a change for the better.

With Davis and his Aerotow Industry shithead buddies controlling everything? Yeah, you've got a legitimate point on that one.

The small group of U.S. competition pilots is shrinking every year, including participation at Big Spring.

It sure got shrunk when John Claytor's Industry Standard weak link didn't work when it was supposed to last year. Also two years before that when Paul Vernon forgot to treat the top of the wheat as the surface for his intended foot landing.

While, as Davis states, they may not have signed up in droves, Dinosaur drew more pilots - not even counting the free-flyers - than did Big Spring and two and a half times as many Sport Class pilots. We built an 1800 foot runway to cater to towing, but not a single pilot opted for that method.

Try providing a tug, platform launch vehicle, stationary winch on the runway next year. See if that generates a bit more enthusiasm. Idiot.

The flatland competition flying that Davis sees as a change for the better, draws fewer participants every year.

Name something in hang gliding - other than tandem thrill rides - that's drawing MORE participants every year.

Retrieval is definitely easier at more urban, flatland venues. No challenge. The driver can be quickly informed and always be there before you can break down. At Dinosaur, a good driver makes a difference. The daily Driver Contest meetings were enthusiastically attended and the contest accomplished its goal.

Wanna say anything about relights?

Davis was very helpful answering technical questions regarding rules, scoring, etc.

Anybody ask him what an appropriate weak link is, what it's supposed to do, and how the value of whatever it is that the meet heads are currently happy with was determined?

As I have said before, no one knows more about current hang gliding competitions than Davis.

And if you need any really good opinions on aerotowing just ask Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.

"Mentoring him time after time with my advice on issues too numerous to count," greatly overstates his contribution.

So does anything positive anyone says about the motherfucker.

Flight parks and other civilized flatland sites are a wonderful thing. I wish I lived near one. Heck, you can even slide in for a landing on your belly!

Show me some videos of XC pilots landing in environments in which you can't.

I wonder what percentage of pilots were inspired by towing and flying triangles over flat land to return to the same field...

- Sailplane pilots? I'd guess 100.0 percent.

- Lose the triangles and you can count me in. I dreamt of aerotowing when I first got into the sport several years before it started becoming a practical reality.

...vs. how many dreamed of leaving a perch on a mountain to fly like a bird.

A bird which has just driven his four wheel drive from home, unloaded his wings from the rack, spent three quarters of an hour setting up, arranged of his girlfriend bird to drive his truck down to the LZ, and recruited a wire crew.

Yeah dude, that's where it's really at. Whenever I leave my perch on the mountain to fly like a bird I blast down to the LZ and break down as quickly as possible while my ride's on its way so I can experience the only part of hang gliding that really counts for anything again. For me it's all about the foot launch. By the time I've gotten past the five second rule and proned out it's pretty much all over - 'cept, of course, for doing a no stepper on the old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ like a bird. That's pretty fuckin' cool too!

In the prologue to his book, Cloudsuck, Davis writes an ever so eloquent description of why most of us learned to fly.

Yeah, Davis has always been really eloquent at describing what most of us wanna do and why and what equipment we wanna use and who we wanna buy it from.

As we age - Davis and I are 68 and elderly by anyone's definition - maybe some of that spirit is lost.

Fuck both of you guys.
---
Note: This entry was originally posted out of chronological sequence in this thread and was swapped with what is now the following.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44058
Terry responds again

Ben Reese - 2015/09/11 08:03:19 UTC

Terry Comments

Terry,
I agree with everything you said and the way you said it. Your words speak to all pilots with well rounded skills and only a site like Dinosaur keeps those skills polished.

What if you have no interest whatsoever in having well rounded skills and keeping them polished and just wanna get lotsa fun, safe, easy airtime?

If you cant Mtn launch safely your not a good pilot.

Make sure you count Dave Seib and Grant Bond on the list of not good pilots 'cause they both died foot launching. Also Craig Pirazzi who never even made it to launch position before he was irrevocably and fatally fucked. Also everybody who's ever blown or seriously botched a launch as an established mountain pilot. Foot launches, free flight or tow, in less than brain dead easy circumstances - steep ramps, wide open knolls, good steady air - are complex, demanding, and inherently dangerous and pilots are imperfect humans.

On the contrary any way you land safe is ok, wheels or belly if you must.

Then how come the sport puts 95 percent of its training emphasis on perfecting spot no-steppers? I thought the whole reason we had to spend decades coming in on final upright with our hands at shoulder or ear height where we can't control the glider and are likely to get turned downwind; perfecting our flare timing; rereading Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's encyclopedia of stunt landing techniques; breaking our downtubes, arms, necks was because it was inevitable that we'd get seriously hurt or killed at some point in our inevitable XC careers if we didn't.

The launch is paramount!

Yeah, that's why I prefer to dolly or platform launch. All that complexity takes the heat off a really crappy pilot such as myself.

Regarding towing at Dinosaur:

Has there ever been any towing at Dinosaur?

I would not want to tow in mid day at a strong Mtn site. No thanks.

That's OK, Ben. I certainly would not want to tow in midday at a strong mountain site at which you and the kinda people who tolerate you were present.

In a hang glider towing at the speeds we fly at is Russian Roulette with weight shift control.

Bull fucking shit.

I have flown in sailplanes in all kinds of sites and it is much safer with more weight, higher speeds, less wing area and positive aerodynamic controls.

...a built in high quality certified release you can blow while maintaining full control of your twenty times more controllable aircraft, a manufacturer specified weak link, no illegal tow mast breakaway and protector on the back end of the tug, no fuckin' dickhead declaring himself Pilot In Command of your aircraft dictating that you can only fly with the cheap shit "equipment" he sells and being constantly poised to fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope...

I am not going to explain why my statements are valid.

Then what was the purpose of including that previous sentence?

Any glider pilot could not disagree.

Why not? Damn near all hang glider pilots disagree that the force transmitted through a towline is tension and that pitch attitude is not synonymous with angle of attack.

Towing at flat sites early in day like Big Spring and Florida is an whole different game.

Yes. An 'ole different game.

If you want exciting go watch the launches at Santa Cruz flats race. They do a great job and there is dusty ground all over. You can see the dust devils and gusts coming.
That is a big reason they are safe...

And we can't be bothered to put streamers up along our non dusty runway. We just all agree that we NEED to start doing it after an Eric Aasletten gets killed or a Mike Nooy gets his brain mushed.

...but it still gets exciting and scary at times.

And mountain launching NEVER does - for the GOOD pilots anyway.

The fact that no pilot choose...

Choosed.

...to tow launch says more than any of my words can say.

Yeah, it most certainly does. You'd hafta go to someone WITH a functional brain to hear some words about there having been nothing available to pull a glider into the air.

One final fact to point out.

Really? You don't think you hit your quota with that last one?

I don't want to cross Davis because I respect the effort he puts into this site.

Great. I'd hate to see you back off on sucking his dick at this point. I, on the other hand, wanna do NOTHING BUT cross that motherfucker because I have unmitigated CONTEMPT for the efforts he puts into that sewer.

I have met him a few times and said hi, that is about it.

I'd crossed paths with him a few times before I realized what a total piece o' shit he is.

There is an air of negativity in here as of late.

Good. I one hundred percent guarantee you that this trend will continue and accelerate. The corruption and deterioration have gotten so blatant and pervasive that factionalization and infighting is gonna snowball and be the names of the game for at least the next couple of decades or until the sport no longer has a detectable pulse.

There is more complaining than positive suggestions.

I got some positive suggestions for you assholes. Wanna hear 'em?

There are agenda's that seem to attack some people and letting some people post in here that have been banned.

NO! Everybody on Davis's Dedicated Sycophant list should be beyond reproach and anybody whose wire has been cut by Davis should be universally ostracized for all eternity.

No one that is banned can post in here without Davis allowing it.

LONG LIVE DAVIS! LONG LIVE DAVIS!

We are all grownups in here...

Well yeah, you've gotta be eighteen or over to legally suck Davis's dick.

...and by the ages floating around like 68 and such its hard to say a comment can be made out of ignorance.

Right. It's on The Bob Show where most of the members are people of varying ages and need Emperor Bob to protect them from having communications or reading posts by unrepentant child molesters.

One thing I found offensive was a comment about Slide Mt. NV where a very experienced pilot, Edgar Higgins crashed into the Mtn E. of launch.

He went by Trey.

The comment was an attempt to promote towing and flat land flying as being safer.

That's totally insane! Everybody knows towing has ten times the complexity of mountain flying and is thus ten times as dangerous.

We did not even know why or who crashed yet!

Which mattered how? Name some hang glider fatal crashes that weren't consequences of serious pilot error.

Look; I don't need to say this but hang gliding is not safe.

Well, I guess there's not much we can do then. We just keep rolling the dice and hoping we keep getting lucky.

I don't care how you launch or where you fly.

Oh. So there are no such things as differences in safety margins at different sites in different conditions with different flavors of launch.

However pointing out your preferred flying styles before the facts are known where a death has occurred is very poor timing at the best.

What's very good timing? Wait until u$hPa's cover-up machinery completes its whitewash and tells us what it wants us to hear? I wasn't able to harvest Trey's ratings entry 'cause u$hPa knew who had gone down before we did and were able to delete it with plenty of time to spare.

As it turns out Mr. Higgins was warned and reminded that flying close to the hill in mid day mountains is just to risky.

Why did he hafta be? He was a fuckin' Navy fighter instructor.

He was known for doing it. Since No one saw the crash it is just a theory he flew to close.

- Flew to close WHAT?
- Yeah. He crashed into a mountain shortly after launch but it's just a theory that he was flying too close.

His launch was fine so its not the launch method.

Yeah. The mountain that he crashed into had nothing to do with the launch method. If it had been an aerotow he could've just as easily crashed into an airport.

No comparison to towing!!

Got that right.

If you fly to close to obstacles in any place you are risking it.

Name some tow gliders who crashed because they were scratching low.

So in this case as in most cases it was pilot error but still a theory?? "Mtn flying is more risky than flat lands so safety margins are even more important."

Which is another way of saying that even with all the total shit equipment used in hang gliding and all the total dildos typical of what we have at both ends of the rope the inevitable safety margins built into towing are twenty times wider than what a good mountain pilot normally doing things right has.

Everyone knows this...

Thank you so very much for taking your survey of everyone and getting back to us with the results.

Right, Ben. EVERYONE know this. 'Cept, of course...

I would not want to tow in mid day at a strong Mtn site. No thanks. In a hang glider towing at the speeds we fly at is Russian Roulette with weight shift control.

...you - four paragraphs ago.

In closing, I am tired of seeing respectable people attacked because of personal grudges..

Me too. And I wanna make every effort to avoid contributing to the problem. So could you prepare a list of respectable people in this sport and get back to me so I can remove them as targets of my attacks stemming from personal grudges? Maybe a list of disrespectable people who are OK to attack because of personal grudges just to make sure - if you have a bit o' time left over after doing all the respectable ones?

If you can't promote your preferences on flying...

Oh. This is all about PREFERENCES. Reality has nothing to do with anything.

...by positive attributes then be quiet.

Fair enough. I'm absolutely positive that one hundred percent of the people who promote mountain flying over conventional tow launching are total dickheads - and I'll be more than happy to provide examples supporting my case.

Rick...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=756
2011 US Nationals, Big Spring, Texas

Rick Masters - 2011/08/05 23:18:20 UTC

Call me old-fashioned, I never towed. If I can't footlaunch off a mountain, I'm not interested.
Besides, what could be more boring than drifting over flat land?
But that's just me being a curmudgeon.
Have fun if you think that's what fun is.

...Masters, Dennis...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

...Pagen, Jim...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

...Keen-Intellect Rooney work for ya? Need I go on?

If this gets me banned then so be it..

Don't worry. I don't think there's any record of Davis having banned a total dickhead. Forum moderators depend on them to assist them in their goal of keeping the sport in the sewer.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44058
Terry responds again

Brian McMahon - 2015/09/11 14:56:28 UTC

Is foot launching at Dinosaur known to be particularly risky?

No. And unhooked launches are completely unknown at Henson. Therefore hook-in checks there are considered to be of no significant importance. Course they're also considered to be of no significant importance at Whitwell just across the valley either. But it'll have been a decade on the First of next month since there was a problem there so what the fuck.

I don't understand why anyone would want to tow unless there wasn't a good foot launch available.

Fine. I think it's moronic to foot launch when there's a tow available at the LZ to get you into the same air.

Leading Edge - 2015/09/11 16:02:18 UTC

Terry Reynolds - 2015/09/10 05:30:42 UTC

...you draw an under-powered tug or a terrible pilot?

I think that is the motto of pilots that aren't very good or very comfortable at towing.

Yeah? Can you give us a couple quotes that support your "thinking"?

- "Pilots" who aren't very good at towing aren't pilots. It's a left/right up/down thing. There's not that much to it for someone who knows how to turn a glider. And presumably all people showing up for XC comps have overcome their Hang One and Two training well enough to be able to turn a glider.

- Anybody who's very comfortable aerotow launching a glider in thermal conditions is a fuckin' idiot - times thirty using tow equipment mandated and sold by Davis and his sleazy Aerotow Industry buddies.

At the least, I think is disparaging to those tug pilots that put in the hard work so we can have fun.

Fuck those tug pilots that put in the hard work so we can have fun. We pay them to do a job that they totally suck at.

Big Spring this year had world class tug pilots.

Show me some videos in which the differences between world class and second weekend tug pilots are detectable. Tell me about all the glider lives saved through the skills of these world class tug pilots.

Can it get any better than clipping on behind Bobby, Russel, Johnny, or Tiki?

Fuck each and every one of them.

- Bobby pulled Robin Strid to his instant death in the total sewer environment of the 2005 Worlds. Shit launch carts and Bobby's shitrigged glider release and decision to continue a bad tow were factors and we never got one single word out of the motherfucker in the aftermath. And his response was, "Oh, my shitrigged glider release jammed. Let's keep putting everybody up on my shitrigged release but force them to use weak links too safe to get them airborne. Problem solved." And he's the best of the best.

- Dragonflies, tow mast breakaways, tow mast breakaway protectors, weak links on ONE end of the bridles, decades of standard aerotow weak link fascism, flagrant gross violations of u$hPa SOPs and FAA aerotowing regulations, suddenly everybody becomes happy with putting tandem weak links on solos and leaving the tandem weak links and front end crap the same.

- Quote me one of those motherfuckers contributing one word's worth of participation to one postmortem discussion from the history of aerotowing.

- Bummer Keavy Nenninger and Mark Knight weren't able to make this one, huh? Maybe next year.

Underpowered? Just like a foot launch, you need to be aware of conditions and gear.

- Sounds like he is. Sounds like he's aware that underpowered gear can be problematic. Must be something to the u$hPa SOP mandating a minimum thrust specification and the FAA regulation mandating minimum weak link strength.

- Why do we need to be aware of the:

-- gear? Don't we have Davis Dead-On Straub and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney mandating what we can and can't use?

-- conditions? Surely world class tug pilots like Bobby, Russell, Jonny, Tike wouldn't tow us in dangerous conditions just as they wouldn't permit us to use dangerous homemade releases and Tad-O-Links?

Know that a 912/914 will pull you up quick, even upwind...

EVEN upwind? Wow! Think how quickly they'd be able to tow us up DOWNwind!

...regardless of lift.

Or...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

...weak links.

582 is going to use lift to get you to altitude...

But...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC

You will only ever need full throttle for the first fifty feet of a tandem tow. Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.

...you can take off with solos at full throttle without the weak links going left and right. And full throttle is always a good thing on takeoff so the 582 is actually a lot safer for the guys at both ends of the string than the 914.

...and will struggle with a head wind...

Bullshit. The whole idea of the Dragonfly was to have a tug slow enough to tow the glider at a comfortable speed. The first practical hang glider tug was the Cosmos trike which had a fraction of the power of the 914 but went forward like a bat outta hell. The 914 tows the glider at the same air (and ground) speed but at a lot higher climb rate. And they're not towing competition bladewings any faster than Falcons 'cause the competition bladewings are all flying pro toad and have the bar stuffed already just coming off of the cart.

- if you see them turn, be ready to follow suit and follow in a way that helps both parties maximize their climb -

Really? I shouldn't just maintain my heading and wait for the tug to get back with the program?

...or better yet, toggle your gear and get off as soon as you identify lift.

Toggle my gear? Is there a chapter in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden where I can read about toggling my gear?

Know a bit about the aircraft being used and it will get you where you need to be.

Did it get Zack Marzec where he needed to be? What do you think the problem was? Didn't know enough about the aircraft? Or maybe he should've toggled his gear as soon as he identified the lift instead of waiting for his gear to toggle itself for him. Real bummer he didn't think of toggling his gear back to the on-tow setting.

Angelo Mantas - 2015/09/11 16:14:35 UTC

Brian McMahon - 2015/09/11 14:56:28 UTC

I don't understand why anyone would want to tow unless there wasn't a good foot launch available.

Convenience.

What about safety?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 05:15:25 UTC

Nonsense.
It's completely about convenience.
People like to argue about it and in their arguments, they dig up rationalizations of it not being about convenience, but sorry... it very much is about convenience.

Take if from the other angle... if it were about safety... if you are truly concerned about your safety... why are you towing? Why are the people that are arguing about weaklinks towing?
The answer of course is that it's not actually about "safety".

People get pissed off not because the weaklink breaking made their lives scary... it made it a pain in the ass. They missed the thermal. They had to relight. Etc.
I'm not saying that these are invalid feelings.
I'm saying that they're not about safety.

If you're towing you obviously have no concern whatsoever about safety. The only way to tow safely is to toggle your gear or have your gear toggled to stop towing.

Although I would much rather foot launch than aerotow...

They're not mutually exclusive. Just ask Robin Strid.

...aerotowing saves you an hour drive up a bumpy, dusty road.

But that's what the essence of hang gliding is - to spend an hour driving up a bumpy dusty road - preferably narrow with large rocks strewn all over the place to match your LZ of choice - so you can run into the air just like a bird.

Also, if you bomb out foot launching, you have to break down, get a ride back up, then set up all over again, by which time you're hopelessly behind.

By which time the day's fuckin' over.

Having said that, I loved foot launching off of King, and foot launching in general.

Just lose the cart. Win/Win.

To pick up your wing, run down the launch, and lift into the sky, unaided, is the way I want to fly.

You're being aided. Somebody's gotta drive your car back down. There's no such thing as unaided flight for humans.

Ironically, almost all of my flying is aerotow these days (I live in the flatlands)...

Well fuck you then. Rick Masters says you're not actually hang gliding unless you drive from Chicago to the Owens every time you wanna get an hour or two of airtime. And The Bob Show heartily endorses that position.

...but the aerotow portion is my least favorite part of flying.

- My least favorite part of flying the hour drive up the bumpy, dusty road with the glider bagged and strapped to the racks.

- You use total shit equipment.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=939
Weak link breaks?

Dan Tomlinson - 2005/08/31 00:33:01 UTC

Tad's post is difficult to read but I've seen his work. His release mechanism is elegant in its simplicity and effectiveness.

How much enjoyment do you think you should expect and deserve when you're using whatever cheap junk some Industry Standard douchebag feels like proclaiming to be Industry Standard is selling you?

- Tell me what you're using as the focal point of your safe towing system and why.

- Yeah, aerotowing takeoffs are the most dangerous of all flavors of tow launches with fully optimized equipment. But with fully optimized aerotowing equipment on both ends of the string and a driver who ISN'T a dickhead you can get airborne with a tiny fraction of the Industry Standard risk and stress.

Everybody note:

- the glaringly conspicuous absence of hang gliding's Patron Saint of Aerotowing giving us the benefit of the pages worth of keenly intellectual opinions we could always count on before the Zack Marzec fatality dust had settled. Motherfucker finally learned - a decade too late - that in order to be rated as a world class tug pilot one needs to keep one's mouth tightly shut at all times in order not to reveal to the world what a total moron one actually is. (Yeah Jim...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

A few too many people actually DID focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot had to say. Please send my regards to Brad Gryder and Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden.)

- just how much we're hearing about the obvious safety advantage of tons of power on takeoff and climb in aerotowing. That NEVER happened prior to the post-Marzec shitcanning of the Infallible Weak Link.

- that convenience and getting into the air safely and efficiently in primo soaring conditions are beginning to be seen as GOOD things.

We're witnessing changes the likes of which have never before been seen in the entire history of the sport - and will never be again. Everything else positive in the sport since the early Seventies has come about because of evolutionary development - all of it gradual save for moving the lower tow attachment off of the basetube and onto the pilot. Hewett's Infallible Weak Link of 1981 abruptly spun evolution straight backwards and the Aerotow Industry's standard aerotow weak link put the decline into overdrive. The towing conversation has changed radically and forever and yesterday's experts have been totally and permanently silenced.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Marc Fink - 2007/05/19 12:58:31 UTC

A 400lb load limit for a solo tow is absurd.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Marc Fink - 2011/08/31 08:11:05 UTC

If procedures were amended to "insist" on stronger weaklinks I would simply stop towing.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Marc Fink - 2013/02/13 16:20:07 UTC

If a requirement for stronger weaklinks were promulgated for all solo aerotowing--I'd immediately stop aerotowing.

Yeah?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Davis Straub - 2014/08/20 19:48:26 UTC

Many of us are now using 200 lb test line from Cortland.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC

I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

The accepted standards and practices changed.
We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.

You tell me how that has NOT happened - asshole. Make it official. Put it in writing that we will never again see your cowardly sleazy ass oozing around anywhere near an aerotow operation.

And how come we're not hearing you up on your soapbox warning your fellow pilots of the inevitable bloodbath?

Marc Fink - 2013/03/11 20:31:29 UTC

There is no escaping the spawn of the Tad!

Got that much right.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Marc Fink - 2007/07/23 11:14:35 UTC

He has also insulted the integrity of several professional instructors and implied that they are deliberately putting students at risks.

Back when insulting the integrity of several professional instructors and STATING that they were deliberately putting students at risks wasn't cool - and damned proud of it, cocksucker.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44058
Terry responds again

David Williamson - 2015/09/15 19:32:27 UTC

Angelo Mantas - 2015/09/11 16:14:35 UTC

Also, if you bomb out foot launching, you have to break down, get a ride back up, then set up all over again, by which time you're hopelessly behind.

Or slope land and carry up.

Yeah. Right.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3oR0Hbgipw


Keep up the great windy foot launches, Colorado pilots. (Antonito)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuSHh0nmKkQ


Might need to fork over something in the way of royalties for the remake.

15-1620
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5590/14374149620_03c742c998_o.png

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33451
Scary launch

Tom Lyon - 2015/09/25 22:52:48 UTC

Whew! So glad he's OK.

Me too, Tom. If he'd been majorly fucked up or killed we wouldn't have gotten to see the video.

I'd sure like to hear the pilot's perspective.

The whose perspective?

I always remind myself that any accident I see could happen to me...

Or pretty much any other typical Jack and Davis Show asshole.

...but it's hard to imagine gaining enough skill to fly a topless glider and making that kind of launch.

How much skill are you imagining it takes to fly a topless? What do you think would happen to a new Hang 2.0 Falcon only jockey if you ran him off a ramp on a T2C?

They're stiffer and take a little runway to land but you assholes are taught to squander control by doing all your training flights upright only and runway by targeting the old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ.