bridles

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
Post Reply
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: bridles

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1563
Platform Launching (PL) Draft suggestions needed
Bill Cummings - 2014/06/08 18:00:01 UTC

Thanks Mike for stating your position regarding weak-links and tow force.
Fuck that. There wasn't a goddam thing Mike said that was less of "his position" than two plus two equals four.
Compare/Contrast with off the scale moronic crap like:
Bill Cummings - 2014/06/05 19:44:19 UTC

The strongest weak-link that we ever used was 350 lbs (1.6 times our all up weight.) for payout winch/reel.
For static we use 220 lbs for a weak-link. Neither of these two breaking limits would cause any control problems when they broke. (Of course you have to pull the bar in when the weak-link broke or the hang glider will climb, drop airspeed and stall.)

Nothing takes all the fear out of a weak-link breaking than doing it on purpose during the many static tows that you do. You develop a feel for when they are about to break. It even helps when towing into a thermal low. You know when to get the nose down to save your weak-link so that you can continue to top out.
Bob Kuczewski - 2014/06/06 17:21:51 UTC

I also like that this discussion emphasizes that breaking a weak link is something that can be practiced - just like we practice stalls - so we understand how to handle them and to not be afraid of them. I had a terrifying stall experience with my instructor when I was learning to fly airplanes back in the 70s. For a long time I feared getting close to stall. As long as I feared stalls, I was not spending much time getting comfortable with them, and that didn't make me a better pilot. So there's a lot to be said for safely learning to handle the inevitable rather than trying to come up with some way to avoid the inevitable.

Nice job Bill !!!! Image Image Image Image Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
I hope that the take-away the readers get is from both of our positions on this subject is to bring to mind something about towing that they haven't thought of yet.
Something that could top THIS?:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release
Juan Saa - 2012/10/18 01:19:49 UTC
Boca Raton

The normal braking force in pounds for a weak link is around 180, at least that is the regular weak link line used at most aerotow operations. By adding a second weak link to your bridal you are cutting the load on each link by half, meaning that the weak link will not break at the intended 180 pounds but it will need about 360.
If that is what you use and is what your instructor approved then I have no business on interfering, i dont know if you are using the same weak link material but there shoul be only ONE weak link on a tow bridle for it to be effective in breaking before higher loads are put into you and the glider should the glider gets to an attitude or off track so much that the safety fuse of the link is needed to break you free from the tug.

I made the same mistake on putting two weak links thinking that I was adding protection to my setup and I was corrected by two instructors on separate occacions at Quest Air and at the Florida RIdge.
Hopefully the readers will find several ah-ha moments from each of our positions on weak-links and other thoughts.
If this sport weren't the total heap of crap that it is nobody would be taking anything away from anything. None of this is rocket science and we've been doing it for 45 years.
It looks to me that we are not that far apart in our towing procedures with regards to tow force and weak-link strength, etc.
- Fuck that.

- Where the hell ARE you...
Bill Cummings - 2014/06/05 19:44:19 UTC

The strongest weak-link that we ever used was 350 lbs (1.6 times our all up weight.) for payout winch/reel.
For static we use 220 lbs for a weak-link. Neither of these two breaking limits would cause any control problems when they broke.
...on weak link strength? And what the fuck are you trying to use it for? I haven't heard a goddam word about structural overload.
Perhaps a reader might think that they could use the difference between our selected runway lengths and use the difference between our weak-link strengths and tow forces.
Nah, your readers are gonna believe the other moronic crap they've already been told...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks
Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.
...at Quest, Wallaby, Lookout, Currituck, Morningside, Ridgely, Cloud 9, Cowboy Up, Foothills... These assholes have worked this out, been doing it for decades, have a proven system that works, *might* have an idea of how this stuff works...
This compromise...
Oh yes. DO compromise. Bob just loves it when people compromise.
...rather than jumping with both feet into one position or the other could ease them into making decisions that best fits their skill set.
Asshole.
Thanks Bob for putting into words what most accurately describes why I think the way I do on this subject.
Bob Kuczewski - 2014/06/08 04:14:46 UTC

One of my thoughts while mulling this all over is that the severity of the glider's response to a line break must be related to the amount of tension in the line when it broke. In other words, if the tension is very close to zero before the break, then the glider's response will be very close to zero after the break. Is that generally true?
HERE's the reason you "THINK" the way you do:

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1186
D. Straub's Politics=Gun Grabbing, Constitution/Baby Killing
Bill Cummings - 2013/02/19 02:43:00 UTC

No one should confuse me with someone that has been exposed to higher education. I avoided that style of incarceration like the plague. Image Image :oops:
I believe that is true.
Oh good. Let's all trust our lives to what an effective high school dropout with no fear of stalls BELIEVES is true.
So the greater the line tension at the time of the break, the greater that thrust change and subsequent deceleration will be. Is that generally true as well?
I believe that is true also and the two quotes are the basis for my way of thinking.
Un fucking believable.
And speaking of quotes...
Thanks zillions. The crap in that thread will be able to keep me fueled for YEARS.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: bridles

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1563
Platform Launching (PL) Draft suggestions needed
Bob Kuczewski - 2014/06/06 17:50:48 UTC

As another suggestion, I think the notions of balance and pilot choice should be introduced at some point. The curve of injuries as a function of weak link strength probably looks something like this:

Image
Hey Bob... Wanna see just how much trouble you can get into with a 1.00 G weak link?
Robert V. Wills - 1977/06

1976/11/27 - Don Cohen - 26 - Fort Lauderdale - Wind Gypsy, Mark IV

Balloon drop from six thousand feet, Cohen released his main line without releasing his nose (anti-rotation) line, kite hung by its nose for ten feet, then the line broke and the kite slid back, went into a tumble, folded up.
Find some place on your idiot graph to insert THAT data point.
---
2022/05/03 02:15:00 UTC

Ten feet... Doesn't make any sense. The original text has it:
10'
Must have meant/been ten seconds.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: bridles

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1563
Platform Launching (PL) Draft suggestions needed
Bill Cummings - 2014/06/05 19:44:19 UTC

Now what is the plan, "B" for a release failure, for example, while aero-towing? Jim Rooney over on the OZ Report...
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1041
"Sharing" of Hang Gliding Information ?!?
Merlin - 2012/05/26 13:22:30 UTC

I confess to previously having a bit of an Oz Report habit, but the forced login thing has turned me off permanently, and I am in fact grateful. Frankly, the site had pretty much been reduced to a few dedicated sycophants in any case.
...weak-link thread...
One of a couple the "moderator" locked down on 2013/03/13 to protect himself from going stark raving...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25015
Zippy pounds in
Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC

Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.
...madder and Quest's perfected aerotow system that had just been proven to have worked to have killed a tandem aerotow instructor beyond any shadow of a doubt from being reformed to safely comply with FAA aerotowing regulations.
...said something to the effect that a pilot could push out and pop the weak-link to get free of tow. (Paraphrased and not verbatim.)
Didn't he also say something to the effect that:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

See, in truck towing, a weaklink does next to nothing for you (unless the line snags).
This is because you're on a pressure regulated system... so the forces never get high enough to break the link.

This is not the case with an aerotow.
This is why the weaklink exists.

The forces of an aerotow can get high enough to tear the wings off the glider.
This is no exaggeration... it can be done.
and:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 06:40:02 UTC

So... if it's *only* purpose is to prevent your glider from breaking apart... which is complete and utter bullshit... but if that was it's only purpose... why then do we have them at all?
Your glider will tear the rope apart before it breaks.
It will tear the towmast off the tug before it breaks.
Your glider is capable of amazing feats of strength... it is in no danger of folding up on you.
paraphrased and not verbatim?
Didn't he also say something to the effect that:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20 UTC

Carful who you put stock in mate.
Calling blindrodie a fool? Seriously? Easily discounted?
You may not have an understanding of who you're brushing off... In lieu of some people that have been listening to the rantings of, I kid you not, a convicted pedophile. I'm willing to look past the messenger... To a point. But gimme a break... You're blowing off a tug pilot instead?
paraphrased and not verbatim?

Isn't it true that Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is a stupid, demented, twisted, sleazy, pathological liar who will say and do ANYTHING to maintain the illusion that he and his stupid, demented, twisted, sleazy, pathological liar colleagues know what the fuck they're doing and talking about?
Jim and I are on the same page with respect to weak-links.
Fine Bill. Now resolve that and your li'l Rooney buddy with:

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=929
Training Manual Comments / Contribution
Bill Cummings - 2012/01/10 14:04:59 UTC

Tad's procedures for aerotowing should become part of any training manual.
Tad must have put hour upon hour of gathering together his written procedure.
My personal plan, "B" for when my release fails will be of no use to the pilots found in the camp of, "Strong Weak-Links. (oxymoron.)
Speaking of MORONS... This is what a weak link is and does:
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
I don't know when the first dedicated weak link went up on a glider but if you had to start throwing things out from any tow system the weak link would go FIRST. This bozo here:

http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28697
Weak links why do we use them. in paragliding.
Ake Larsson - 2010/02/13 16:31:31 UTC

In the my part of the world (flatland Sweden) where you have to tow to get some airtime no one uses weaklinks, I belive it is the same in Finland. Even most of the beginner training is done on tow in Sweden and whitout a weaklink. Play the %, a weaklink might save you one serious accident in a hundred years but will give you a lot of smaller accidents when it breakes.
is essentially right. Although it's moronic to not have something in the system that's guaranteed to hold through any situation that hasn't gone totally tits up but break before the glider does, in the real world with halfway competent operators and pilots and solid releases...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

You and I have flown sailplanes for almost as long as we have flown hang gliders. We own two sailplanes and have two airplanes that we use for towing full-size sailplanes. In all the time that we have flown and towed sailplanes, we have not experienced or even seen a sailplane weak link break.
...they don't make ANY DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER. Just like ten year old kids flying kites at the beach don't use or need weak links to keep from breaking their toys and don't need or use them to an infinitely greater degree to keep them from getting out of control.

Wilbur and Orville wouldn't have been using weak links in their glider experiments for exactly the same reasons that ten year old kids flying THEIR kites don't use them.

I'm guessing that as post Kitty Hawk gliders started getting in the air there was no lightbulb moment when somebody said, "WHOA!!! We REALLY need to have a weak link in this system!" I'm guessing that the people smart enough to be designing gliders were using towlines just strong enough to safely tow their birds but would obviously fail before the planes did and it would've never occurred to them to do otherwise. Why would you want the extra weight, drag, expense of something strong enough to exceed any tension you were ever gonna encounter under any halfway controlled situation and be able to rip your glider apart or release mount out of the plane?

And zilch of leap from there. Got a winch setup capable of pulling heavy draggy two place trainers. Wanna also pull up a clean, delicate little solo on the same rig? Put a couple feet of the line your glider was designed to be pulled with on the end of the heavy stuff. Duh! Nobody ever broke a glider to figure out that a weak link was needed in the system or came up with the concept of a weak link because a glider was broken up for want of a weak link. Thousands of years ago when people were building and rigging sailing ships they were well aware that you wanted a rope that would fail before something really important and expensive did.

Hang gliders weren't towed with weak links in the Seventies...
Harry Robb - 1975/09
Clearwater, Florida

No flight should ever be made with a knot in the tow line. Aside from the abrasion caused by the knot rubbing on itself, the tensile strength is decreased by as much as fifty percent. Lines require constant inspection - prior to the first flight of every day by every flyer. In a tournament, the Lineman Starter can inspect some portions of the line on each flight, and the Safety Inspector will inspect the entire line slowly, foot-by-foot, two or three times daily. The tow line is a life line and must be treated with utmost respect.
And they didn't break any gliders up in the Seventies because the line tensions were two high - they broke a few gliders up because the gliders sucked. Same reason they broke gliders up in free flight.

And even though they were towing without dedicated weak links and connecting the bottom end of the bridle to the control frame instead of the pilot they were operating WAY more safely...

06-03114
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3728/9655895292_f4f808fb0e_o.png
Image

...than the fuckin' douchebags who've been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years with their releases velcroed within easy reach, bent pins, pro toad bridles, tow mast breakaway protectors, standard aerotow inconveniencers*, and huge track records.

Then in 1980 Donnell comes along with his faith based take on aviation and decides to pull a magic number and corresponding piece of fishing line out of his ass and in that one fell swoop eliminates:
- lockouts and stalls from the towing environment
- all need for:
-- qualified pilots and drivers
-- functional release systems
-- controlled tension systems
-- rational thought processes
- any and every possibility of ever getting hang glider towing back on the right track
My personal plan, "B" for when my release fails will be of no use to the pilots found in the camp of, "Strong Weak-Links. (oxymoron.)
Where the fuck do you think the term "weak link" originated from, Bill? It was the WEAK LINK IN THE *CHAIN*.

If you had a thousand foot anchor chain with two thousand links and 1999 of them good for 3000 pounds and one of them good for 2995 pounds that was the point at which you were gonna find yourself inconveniently but harmlessly drifting downwind towards the surf pounded rocks. They didn't have anchor chains with 1999 links good for 3000 pounds and one of them good for 500 pounds just in case they wanted to get underway quickly and didn't have a windlass that could really be relied upon to work when they needed it to.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.
"OK, me lads! Let's unfurl a couple sails, overload that puppy, and get the fuck outta here!"

You and your scummy li'l Rooney buddy take your "strong weak link" / "oxymoron" crap and shove it up your asses. And while you're at it take some pieces of Bob and shove them up your asses as well.

* ©
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: bridles

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1563
Platform Launching (PL) Draft suggestions needed
Bob Kuczewski - 2014/06/06 17:21:51 UTC

As forum moderator, I try to read every post on the forum. I know Tad has long pushed the "strong weak link" idea, and I'm glad to see the other side of the argument being presented.

I also like that this discussion emphasizes that breaking a weak link is something that can be practiced - just like we practice stalls - so we understand how to handle them and to not be afraid of them. I had a terrifying stall experience with my instructor when I was learning to fly airplanes back in the 70s. For a long time I feared getting close to stall. As long as I feared stalls, I was not spending much time getting comfortable with them, and that didn't make me a better pilot. So there's a lot to be said for safely learning to handle the inevitable rather than trying to come up with some way to avoid the inevitable.

Nice job Bill !!!! Image Image Image Image Image
Hey Bob...

When whatever total fucking moron it was who was helping you get certified for a pilot rating was working on teaching you in smooth air at five thousand feet how harmless and fun stalls were...

Hang gliders have placarded pitch attitude limitations of thirty degrees plus and minus.

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
Image
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG

What were the placard limitations on the plane you were flying?

How did you enter the stall? By throttling back to idle and easing back on the yoke? Or going max power with the nose pointed at the moon then abuptly killing the engine?

If the latter did you just let the prop spin down normally or was there some way to simulate a seized engine so the prop went from full power to zero rpms in a millisecond?

Did you fly the plane in its certified configuration or did you remove the elevator and horizontal stabilizer to better simulate a hang glider doing stall recovery?

Any chance you could look your guy up and get him working with Frank Murphy...

Image

...to help him work through some of his irrational stall phobia issues? Last I heard he was so shaken up by this totally harmless little exercise that he totally lost his enthusiasm for flying Dragonflies.

After that maybe he'd be able to bop up to Southern Ontario and work with the guy who was flying this one:

http://ozreport.com/forum/files/2_264.jpg
Image

He was so frightened that he had a psychosomatic issue with his legs and wasn't able to walk away. And damned if it hasn't persisted for near three years at this point - despite the best efforts of some of the best psychologists money can buy.

Failing that maybe you could just give him a ring, talk him through his issues, and get him back on those rudder pedals. Bet some of the grateful aerotow club guys up there would be so appreciative that they'd pick up US citizenships so's they'd be allowed to join US Hawks (after appropriate background checks, of course) and help you build a better hang gliding organization.

Image Image Image Image Image

Asshole.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: bridles

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1563
Platform Launching (PL) Draft suggestions needed
Bill Cummings - 2014/06/20 00:48:55 UTC

Safety concerns with platform payout towing procedures.
Let's start with this one, Bill. If you're a fuckin' wack job who thinks that stalls are no big fuckin' deals and/or have a like minded individual within close enough range to be able to affect or influence any of the procedures then stay on the fuckin' ground - unless, of course, you wanna do something positive for the gene pool.
In all candor I readily admit to doing two things wrong when platform towing.
Getting out of bed and showing up? Studiously avoiding learning the elementary science and math principles which form the foundation for towing theory and aligning yourself with Bob who constantly praises anybody and everybody he wants in his freedom movement for their brilliance?
On purpose I used to do more things wrong but I'm getting better at staying closer to the center of the safety envelope and not pushing the edge.

I allowed my weak-link strength to creep up to 350 lbs while platform towing.
Oh my god! 350 pound weak links have been known not to break when they're supposed to! That's over the 1.0 G limit you need to prevent lockouts and stalls! You're lucky to be alive.
What strength should have been enough?
A single loop of Cortland 130 lb. Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line placed at one end of a shoulder bridle. But even that's too much sometimes. After John Claytor slammed in at the beginning of the month there was a lot of talk about going to eighty pounds but there were too many assholes objecting to the inconvenience that might entail.
Answer = 220 lbs breaking strength for the weal-link...
Wheel-link? Will-link? Weasel-link?
...with a tow force of 100 to 125 lbs.
That's a good breaking strength - for the total fucking assholes who are absolutely positive that they'll never need 221 pounds to keep their stupid asses alive, 'specially the ones who've practiced stalls a lot.
Here is why I allowed creep in my weak-link strength.
A thought process kicking in once or twice a year? Just kidding.
For awhile different platform tow rigs that I had been using had more line on their drums than we could use with the 5,000' - 7,000' runways that we were towing on. After launching the towline would dig deep into the many wraps on the drum and sometimes completely "nest" (stop paying out)...
What's wrong with the term "dig"? Do you ever find fresh eggs in the back of the truck when these things are happening several times in the course of a day?
...and break the weak-link.
And since the ensuing stall is never a problem...
When a winch completely locks up you are now instantly static towing...
...and climbing...
...too fast.
Too fast to WHAT, Bill? Ensure the safety of your fishing line?
Worse than this would be using the procedure to quickly dash out in front of the pilot by speeding up the truck.
Or, where applicable, the horse.
("Go to cruise and accelerate!")

This is an attempt to get more line out to tow the pilot more ahead than down.
If the winch/reel were to nest, meaning lock up...
Or to gather twigs, arrange them in the shape of a bowl, line the interior with soft vegetation and down...
...you would have a low angle to the platform rig, way too much speed...
...no fuckin' ability to release 'cause for the past 33 years you've been spending thousands of hours writing crap like this instead of developing safe hardware or paying somebody with a functional brain to do it for you...
...and not have a climb restricting "V" bridle assisting you in keeping the nose down.
And the absolute LAST thing you wanna be doing in any aviation emergency is climbing away from the surface.
You are at the mercy of the payout tow vehicle.
So? What's the worst that could happen? Weak link:
- doesn't work you climb out.
- works and you stall. And a stall is always MUCH safer than a climb. ANYTHING other than being on tow and following your flight plan.
A lock up with excess speed from dashing out in front of the pilot will almost certainly break the weak-link, nose high, beyond the pilots ability to weight shift the nose of the hang glider down to prevent a stall.
PREVENT a STALL?!?! Why would anyone in his right mind want to PREVENT a stall? You should be stalling your glider at every opportunity to keep reassuring yourself that they're nothing to be feared and stay in practice.
If you choose to fix this problem by increasing the strength of the weak-link the dashing PL rig procedure still will have the potential to break the stronger weak-link when (Not if.) the winch/reel locks up.
A SAFE weak link - OBVIOUSLY. But one of those Tad-O-Links would probably just hold, doom you to even more climbing, and deprive you of the enjoyment of...

Image

...a stall. And then where would you be?
This would pitch the nose even higher.
Like THIS?:

11-03602
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5312/14395027351_2c50d06c3e_o.png
Image
Image
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14211794190_81949edf9c_o.png
21-05520

Yeah, that sure looks scary. No fuckin' way I'd wanna be in THAT guy's position when I could be exploring the low speed handling characteristics of my wing and enjoying a nice stall back into the runway.
This could result into a serious break stall...
A SERIOUS stall? That's like saying a serious perfect landing. You're simply not making much sense here.
...or worse yet a tuck and tumble.
You mean like when Zack Marzec got blasted by a thermal when being pulled at a less than zero tow angle on a permanently jammed towline by a vehicle physically incapable of doing much in the way of slowing down while not using a climb restricting "V" bridle to assist him...

06-03114
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3728/9655895292_f4f808fb0e_o.png
Image

...in keeping the nose down? Fuck you, dude.

You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about it.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.

Ever heard of "Confirmation Bias"?
Because you're a textbook example.
You were out looking for data to support your preconceived conclusion, rather than looking at the data and seeing what it told you... which is why this is the first time we've heard from you and your gang.

Go back to Tad's hole in the ground.
While you're there, ask him why he was banned from every east coast flying site.

Yeah, Bill. No fuckin' way that could've happened on a 220 pound weak link instead of the 260 - at or off the bottom of the legal range - he was actually using. Knock forty pounds off the max tension and he'd have probably just tumbled once and lived long enough to tell Paul and Lauren just how much enjoyment he'd gotten out of flying Quest.
Never trust that a payout will always work properly due to it's precision engineering and spotless history.
Fuck no. We can't even trust the fine aerotowing equipment engineered by Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey and perfected by Quest for twenty years to work as much as half the time when we need it to. I actually think that precision engineering and spotless histories are more the problems than the solutions. Precision engineering always involves components to address problems and that just adds complexity and thus inevitable catastrophic failures and when something like that has a long spotless history that just means that the chances of having an inevitable catastrophic failure on the next flight are through the ceiling.
The towing procedures that you adopt should have within them solutions that will address as many adverse scenarios that tow pilots can imagine.
Just as long as:
- none of the adverse scenarios addresses and Eric Aasletten
- a release that can be blown in an adverse scenario is ever considered as viable solution
Care needs to be taken that a solution to one problem will not aggravate a different problem.
Who the fuck do you think you're talking to, Bill? A bunch of people really interested in innovation and advancement? Bob, Sam, Charlie? Platform towing is essentially the same now as it was thirty years ago. About the only ray of hope that I've seen is the Houston guys using six hundred pound weak links - which is the opposite of what you're recommending times three. But of course they don't hafta worry too much about their slush caked three-strings freezing up at altitude the way just about everyone else does.
Keep in mind that if you maintain a proper angle to the platform rig of not less than 40-45 degrees your towing operation no longer requires a climb restricting attachment to the keel. PL towing doesn't have this climb restricting rope to the keel so your correct angle the entire time off the rig is the safest answer.
If you're low and the winch jams aren't you gonna find yourself at the ideal angle pretty quick whether you want to or not? Provided, of course, your Cummings Link doesn't dump you into a totally harmless whipstall first?
If you descend or find yourself at a poor angle - release.
Yeah...

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Aerotow FAQ
ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem.
...'cause whenever there IS a problem no fuckin' way you'll be able to.

And don't worry about any risks associated with an emergency landing and/or second tow launch. Just not kosher to include shit like that in the arithmetic.
In this situation you certainly wouldn't want the payout winch/reel to lock up. The longer you put off the release decision if your angle of tow decreases from optimal the greater will be the risk to yourself if the payout should freeze up.
Yeah Bill, real fuckin' scary. So from the entire history of platform towing can you cite one single incident of so much as a scraped knee resulting from this scenario?

Aerotow launch is the most dangerous way to get into the air on a string - even when you're using top notch funky shit equipment and have people who know what the fuck their doing. Start throwing in Jim Keen-Intellect Rooneys, tow mast breakaway protectors, Rooney Links, bent pin releases within easy reach, Davis... Things get totally insane. But even with all that do you have any fuckin' clue how many cycles you need to go through before you kill one of these motherfuckers? It takes DECADES. And the numbers of pro toad aerotow flights totally dwarfs platform.

You'd be lucky to kill one asshole in the scenario you describe once in a couple thousand years. And when you killed him it would be primarily because of his Cummings Link.
Static towing once 40-45 degrees has been attained no longer needs a climb restricting keel rope and is sometimes in the pilots way. This keel rope getting in the way has resulted in pilots rigging up without one. Thus further pushing the edge of the safety envelope.
And I TOTALLY support that.
- There's a very short window of vulnerability
- You can very effectively manage it by not launching into a dust devil.
- If there IS an issue it's quickly self-correcting.
- The only assholes likely to get killed are Cummings Linkers and I'm always elated when that happens.
One tow method was named Pro Tow.
Bullshit. That's a term exclusive to aerotowing and derived by the aerotowing industry to con the public into believing that it's a safe practice for assholes with the right stuff.
Removing the keel rope while static towing and increasing the weak-link strength...
Is EXACTLY what you wanna be doing.
...has what I call a synergetic (greater than the parts) deleterious effect on the towing safety envelope.
Anybody else calling it that?
A safety issue deteriorating in logarithmic proportion not simply arithmetically.
It's just something else you pulled outta your ass and are smearing multisyllable lipstick over to make it legitimate.
It might look as though I'm wandering off topic bringing up the static towing during a pay out platform launch topic.
What's it matter? Your lunatic schizophrenic statements on weak link pops and stalls have already destroyed any credibility you might have with anybody who could possibly deserve to live.
Poor towing procedure allows pilots themselves to do this vacillating between the two methods if they are not maintaining the proper tow line angle.

If your angle to the PL rig is low (poor) it is comparable to early stages of static towing.
Big fuckin' deal.
Low angles are best handled with a climb restricting "V" bridle for static towing.
Low tow angles are best handled by climbing to higher tow angles. And people have been doing that problem free without any help whatsoever from climb restricting "V" bridles, Cummings Links, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, or you for decades.
Proper angles while platform towing have you not as close to the edge of the safety envelope but right in the middle.
Yeah. We know that. Try talking to Bill Bryden about that issue.
Remember your keels angle to the horizon should not exceed 60 degrees.
Yeah, Cummings Links aren't really designed to handle them.
The tilted earth theory while towing is no longer in play with the loss of tow tension.
Sure it is. Your glider will start adjusting to the Cummings Link pop instantly and perfectly.
Loss of tow tension can have you at or beyond 60 degrees to the horizon. How much so depends on your choice of towing safety procedures.
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
These procedures must take into account, airspeeds, bridles, weak-links, angle of tow (angle of the towline with the surface), angle of the keel with the horizon, which are the major concerns together with other minor concerns.
You forgot Dragonfly breakaway tow mast and tug drivers who are always poised to fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope.
Trusting a mindless automatically tension adjusting payout winch or even a driver adjusting speed while watching a pressure gauge in a truck is a safety procedural paradigm that will never be all inclusive.
Much better off trusting a highly sophisticated 220 pound loop of fishing line to predetermine what's likely to make you happiest.
There are times when procedure and automation actually add to a hazard.
Do ya think? Maybe it would be a good idea to have actual PILOTS making the decisions and executing the actions?
(The following example will not find its way into a training manual but is here to stress a point.)
Example: A tow pilot died because he was used to flying "pilot in command" on constant radio transmit, without a pressure gauge. He was truck, pulley, towing for his first time with a pressure gauge.
I watched the video of his death that his girlfriend took.
After launching a thermal gusted him 90 degrees of tow to his right. He pulled in and turned left which snagged the two tow bridle ropes to his body over the left wheel axle (minus the wheels this day).
1991/06/09 - Harold Austin - 37 - Advanced - 23 years, 400 tows - Wills Wing Sport - Mount Pleasant, Michigan - massive head, neck, chest, leg
The axles extended out of both ends of his base tube. Pulling in to reduce tension he undoubtedly thought, like I have on similar occasions, that he could remove the snag then radio for more speed. However the drivers procedure was to maintain pressure while towing, (Much like a mindless pressure adjusting winch will do because of it's design that didn't encompass all variables that a pilot is exposed to.)
- Versus what, Bill? A mountain that just sits there and won't adjust itself to crosswind gusts or grow laurel over boulders you're about to slam into?

- So drivers can't adjust or kill speed and/or tension?
The tow vehicle sped up. The glider instantly locked out to the left. Two seconds later he died on impact.
No he didn't. He still had a pulse when the ambulance took him away.
There are times when I pull the bar in to reduce tension. I don't want something or someone on the ground overruling me and restoring that tension until I command it.
- But instantly going from 220 to zero on the call of some piece of fishing line or douchebag on a Dragonfly with a dump lever you're totally cool with.

- Do you really wanna be flying with some asshole or the other end too fuckin' stupid to be able to watch your glider and adjust accordingly? Do you wanna really wanna be towing with some asshole like THIS:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
or any of the assholes who trained and certified him or even tolerate his existence in the sport?

- Doesn't sound like you have all that much respect for Dr. Lionel D. Hewitt, professor of physics and developer of the 2-to-1 center-of-mass Skyting bridle for surface towing...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

Dr. Lionel D. Hewitt, professor of physics and developer of the 2-to-1 center-of-mass Skyting bridle for surface towing, is well respected for his knowledge of towing, bridles, and weak links.
...for his knowledge of towing, bridles, and weak links. He tends to be of the persuasion that as long as you've got constant and moderate tension there's really not that much that...

022-04610
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2809/13746340634_a74b33d285_o.png
Image

...can be going wrong back there.
(This is for experienced pilots only not students).
Like heavier weak links. See above.
I tell drivers with pressure gauges, "Whether the gauge is in the red or at zero do what I say. I am the pilot in command."
- Not when you've got somebody else with total control of your thrust you're not. You're in a partnership. And sometimes you really need the other Pilot In Command to be as good as or better than you are.

- You've never once in your entire towing career been a Pilot In Command. You've never once flown with a release that didn't stink on ice or a piece of fishing line constantly poised to make a good decision in the interest of your safety. You've never once been anything better than a dope on a rope.

- Plus you don't have a freakin' clue what you're talking about on basic theory.
Any winch tension that I use from now on will be adjustable, "On the fly."
- So much for aerotowing.

- Yeah, really amazing...
by Donnell Hewett - 1985/08

2. CONSTANT TENSION
The tension in the towline must remain essentially constant throughout every phase of the towed flight.
http://www.birrendesign.com/rhgpa_criteria.html
RHGPA: Hewett skying criteria
These are Donnell Hewett's original 12 elements of a good tow system. They are as viable today as they were in the early 80's when he wrote them.
...just how right Donnell was able to get everything on the first stab.
I tell the driver what to do with speed and tension adjustments over the radio.
Good thing you didn't hafta invent THAT yourself.
(For experienced pilots only. Not students.)
Like dolly launching, prone harnesses, flying with hands on the basetube. Ain't this caste system we've got in our special little flavor of aviation just great!
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: bridles

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1563
Platform Launching (PL) Draft suggestions needed
Bill Cummings - 2014/06/20 00:53:22 UTC

Creep in weak-link strength.

Some things that can cause creep in weak-link strength.
Gliders that can handle heavier loads? Just kidding.
If the problem is at the winch/reel the remedy is not of necessity at the weak-link.
There's only one problem that the weak link remedies. If you can't figure out what it is then shut the fuck up.
Did you know that as you pull more line off of the winch/reel a simple payout system will increase the line tension as the rope diameter on the drum gets smaller?
If you're too fucking stupid to understand that then what the fuck are you doing pulling hang gliders?
This is understood by the long time platform tow pilots...
Yeah, it usually takes them about ten or fifteen years to start grasping some of these basic grade school science concepts.
...but for those that haven't stopped to think it through yet...
Oh good, a little tutorial geared for the Sam Kellner level vegetables that this sport so desperately needs.
I have come up with this analogy that has worked for me in the past.

Let's say your winch/reel doesn't have any towline on it yet.
Let's say your winch/reel axle is now visible because there is no towline on it.
If an axle is visible you have big problems 'cause your reel is missing.
Let's set (SET not say) the brake pressure so that the brake pads hold the caliper so that you cannot turn the winch/reel without a pipe wrench on the axle.
Depending where we grab the pipe wrench handle either down close to the pipe wrench jaws at the axle or at the other end of the pipe wrench handle away from the pipe wrench jaws, which choice will make it easier to turn the winch/reel against the brake pads?
If you said it would be easier to turn the winch/reel by grabbing the pipe wrench handle at the end farthest from the jaws you are now on the same page as the long time platform tow pilots.
The fifteen year guys. The best of the best.
Put your first layer of towline on the axle one wrap deep. If you pull until the winch will turn it will be hard to turn the winch/reel against the brake. Once you have all four thousand feet of towline on the winch/reel the top wraps will be farther from the axle and it will be easier to pull the line off against the brake. Kind of like grabbing the pipe wrench higher up on the handle.
Pretend your significant other bought you a brand new winch/reel and four thousand feet of towline. Wow! Are we going to get high or what? Probably not right away. Your troubles await you!
If your towline is wrapped snugly around the drum with each wrap against the previous wrap it will payout with a minimum of abrasion. This assumes that the line is coming off of the drum perpendicularly. Coming off at an angle will cause abrasion while increasing the tension above your desired setting.
If only there were some way to route the towline through some sort of guide with rollers so's we could eliminate this issue from the discussion.
If the line is wrapped loosely with many layers deep the line will dig into the wraps which will increase line tension from friction and possibly nest stopping payout.
This can cause a weak-link to break.
But that's GOOD thing, right?
In this situation the problem is not at the weak-link.
In this situation the problem is that you have people who require years or decades to grasp concepts which should require five seconds or less operating potentially lethal systems. And this is considered par for the course.
Remember that not only does the digging in of the line cause more friction against the towline creating more line tension for the pilot but the line is being pulled out from a smaller diameter as was discussed earlier. Two things that increase the tension to the pilot. A double whammy for weak-links.
Yeah, the PILOT can handle things just fine. It's the Pilot In Command that has the problem and must be accommodated.
Pulling off at an angle gives you the triple tension whammy.
Yeah Bill, let's keep talking about that issue. So much more fun than just doing the job right.
Any one or combination of whammies will break a proper, safe, weak-link.
Which The Great Bill Cummings...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1186
D. Straub's Politics=Gun Grabbing, Constitution/Baby Killing
Bill Cummings - 2013/02/19 02:43:00 UTC

No one should confuse me with someone that has been exposed to higher education. I avoided that style of incarceration like the plague. Image Image :oops:
...has just assured us all is 220 pounds.
Once a winch/reel momentarily stops paying out there is also a fourth tension whammy called inertia. Depending on the weight and size of the drum this inertia can be just a little or a lot.
And it sure is a good thing we all have proper, safe weak links so's these whammies won't coordinate to fold up our gliders.
If you are using towline with a low stretch value the inertia issue is magnified.
That's OK, Bill. I'm using polypro 'cause I want all my safety margins as wide as possible.
What do you think? Should we name this, inertial, shock load, tension increasing, whammy # five?
I think you should shut the fuck up until you've figured out the difference between a release and a weak link.
We once splashed through a mud puddle putting mud on the brake rotor. The mud dried and left grit to embed itself into the brake pads. For many more tow ups we had the winch/reel paying out line with too much line tension due to the increased friction against the brake rotor.
Really? You had "too much line tension"? But nobody was requesting less line tension.
Is the problem the weak-link or one of several other causes or maybe a combination of causes?
I stopped having weak link problems - at least on my end of the string - when I figured out that none of the assholes running these shows had the slightest fucking clues what they were talking about.
Whatever the cause "weak-link creep," usually ends up becoming the fix which in turn has you approaching the edge of the safety envelope in the direction of unpreventable stalls when tow tension is lost.
Like THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM

11-0513
Image
15-0526
Image
19-0707
Image
24-0827
Image
31-0923
Image

one?
We should be asking ourselves these questions:
We should've been at a point forty years ago at which we no longer had any needs for huge flocks of total douchebags to be asking themselves any questions.
1) If I'm low during platform towing and the truck is dashing out ahead of me would I be better off, should the payout freeze up, with me being at 45 degrees to tow or 25 degrees to tow?
If you're at 25 degrees during platform towing and winch locks up while the truck is dashing out ahead of you, how many milliseconds will elapse before you're at 45 degrees?
2) If I was safer static towing with a climb restricting bridle to the keel to handle low angles of tow am I now immune from low angle hazards while platform towing without a climb restricting bridle?
No. Let's all switch to two point bridles to solve that nonexistent problem - and continue flying pro toad bridles like the one that killed Zack Marzec for aero after we've taken a short clinic with Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt to learn how to do it properly.
3) If I should have a payout lock up would I be better off with the platform rig maintaining me with enough airspeed/energy to land to either side of the runway/road or have the rig steadily accelerating away from me? (Be careful here with this answer.)
None of the above. The driver can always fix whatever's going on back there by...
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...

Image

Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
...giving you the rope.
4) If I have a 5,000' runway should I have 4,000' of towline on the winch/reel? Image
You shouldn't have ANY towline on the winch/reel. If you were truly concerned about safety...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 05:15:25 UTC

Nonsense.
It's completely about convenience.
People like to argue about it and in their arguments, they dig up rationalizations of it not being about convenience, but sorry... it very much is about convenience.

Take if from the other angle... if it were about safety... if you are truly concerned about your safety... why are you towing? Why are the people that are arguing about weaklinks towing?
The answer of course is that it's not actually about "safety".
...you'd never pull the cold nose safety and basetube bracket retainers. You'd just have the truck drive you up and down the runway with your glider firmly strapped down to it.
5) Does higher tow tension narrow the distance that I can be to left or right and downwind of my platform rig?
If you're using a towline guide what difference does it make? If you're not using a towline guide then why are you towing in a crosswind and talking about safety?
6) Will too much line on my winch/reel cause excessive line abrasion and/or nesting?
No. You should almost have too much of something for whatever it is you're doing. I personally believe we should be using at least three backup loops.
7) What length of towline is simply too much for the winch/reel that I'm using. Image
Need more information. Spectra or polypro?
8) Is it easier to find myself, "locked out over the top" at low towline angles or high towline angles while platform towing.
None of the above. It's easier to find yourself "locked out over the top" aerotowing on a pro toad bridle.
9) Did I attempt to fix the payout problem at the winch/reel or did I fudge with, "Weak-link creep Image
You ARE a weak link creep, Bill. One of tens of thousands.
10) If my weak-link breaks will I more likely be able to prevent a stall? Image
Obviously.
Bill Cummings - 2014/06/05 19:44:19 UTC

Does the thought of your weak-link breaking make you uncomfortable? It shouldn't.
No fuckin' brainer.

Let's try this one, Bill... Name a weak link rating - pounds or Gs - that hasn't put someone reacting perfectly in a potentially lethal stall at altitude or an actually lethal stall not altitude.

Show me some videos of Rooney Link pops increasing the safety of the towing operation.

Now meanwhile, back in the REAL platform launch world, here are the last two platform incidents we've had:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg
Image
016-04308
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3799/13746342624_c9b015f814_o.png
Image
022-04610
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2809/13746340634_a74b33d285_o.png
Image
070-05111
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7207/13745841035_6b79a43ea8_o.png
Image
088-05301
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3708/13746233274_c1a80f35c1_o.png
Image

Pretty good climb restricting bridle, wasn't it?

Platform launch incidents are pretty much nonexistent, the ones that we DO have - Eric Aasletten, John Woiwode, Terry Mason, Bob Buxton - tend to be REALLY UGLY, and you never do shit to address the actual issues 'cept push Cummings Links to make platform towing MORE dangerous and an Eric Aasletten or Terry Mason rerun MORE likely.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: bridles

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1563
Platform Launching (PL) Draft suggestions needed
Bob Kuczewski - 2014/06/20 09:02:14 UTC

How does this look Bill?

Assuming that the braking mechanism does not change as the line is paid out ...

Image
That looks just great Bob! And I'm one hundred percent certain that it'll be every bit as useful in advancing platform towing safety as this one:

Image

was in advancing aerotowing safety. Keep up the great work! Image Image Image
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: bridles

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=5874
Aerotowing line attachment
skyhigh123 - 2008/03/09 17:45:42 UTC
France

What are the disadvantages of aerotowing with the line attached (via a release of course) directly to the harness? I understand, for instance, that the British Hang Gliding Association recommends a different system.
So then why doesn't the British Hang Gliding Association tell us WHY it recommends a different system? (And maybe those total fucking douchebags could also tell us their "thinking" in regards to their totally moronic weak link regulations.)
Besides... I thought that Donnell...

http://www.kitestrings.org/topic53.html
Skyting

...wrote the fuckin' book on this issue twenty-seven years ago.
Although I've been flying hang gliders since 1977 I did my first aerotows at the end of last year and I'm planning to do a lot more this year.

I'm now living in France and it seemed sensible to get into aerotowing as I'm not too close to any hill or mountain sites.
Then...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=756
2011 US Nationals, Big Spring, Texas
Rick Masters - 2011/08/05 23:18:20 UTC

Call me old-fashioned, I never towed. If I can't footlaunch off a mountain, I'm not interested.
Besides, what could be more boring than drifting over flat land?
But that's just me being a curmudgeon.
Have fun if you think that's what fun is.
...you can go fuck yourself.
I went in search of a school which might do a conversion course but without success.
That's OK. There's nothing in the way of competence on this side of the pond either.
However, one microlight school which used to do conversions sent me in the direction of someone who currently aerotows from his own farm. I eventually tracked him down and asked him about flying with him. You can come and have a go tomorrow if you like was his response. So I did.

I did four tows to 2500 feet with no problems. He uses a fairly slow trike and a conventional launch trolley. I fly a Wills Wing U2 which I'd established was good on tow and so it proved in practice. My harness is a Woody Valley Smoking Race with two towing attachments on the chest.
So what's the modification for towing on your glider? Oh...
U2 145 and160 Owner / Service Manual

Note: The U2 has been designed for foot launched soaring flight. It has not been designed to be motorized, tethered, or towed.
Right. Wills Wing doesn't BUILD their gliders to be towed. They just SELL their gliders to be towed.
My limited experience of towing has not shown up any problems with the direct attachment of line to harness...
Yeah. Always go with your limited experience of towing. Don't ever bother reading any relevant fatality reports.
...but I'd welcome comments on the system.
Read Hewett. You'll find that you'll immediately be pitched up to a lethal attitude. Do the job right and use an auto-correcting two-to-one bridle.
Thanks for your help,
Tony
From The Jack Show? A bit optimistic, dontchya think?
P.S. I've reposted this in the general forum as my first attempt at posting buried it in the Learn to Hang Glide section.
Bill Reynolds - 2008/03/09 18:22:02 UTC
Miami

I'd also appreciate feedback about 'pro tow'.
Here... Go fuck yourself, Bill. That work for ya?
I currently tow with from the harness and the keel, with the release on the base tube. If it's not much of a jump from that to only towing from the harness, then it would eliminate the release cable...less gear to set-up, preflight, possibly fail...
POSSIBLY fail? All of that crap ROUTINELY fails. So why even worry about it POSSIBLY failing? Assume that it WILL. Why do you think we fly with standard aerotow weak links and hook knives?
...and less drag.
Ever think about running the actuation linkage INside the downtube? Just like the VG system? Asshole.
Diev Hart - 2008/03/09 18:49:42 UTC

My first tows ever were "pro-tow" but that is not recomended (it's for the pros)...
Yeah. Like this one:

25-23223
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png
Image
It really depends on the glider pitch amounts/control amounts and your skill level.
Make sure it's a lot better...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg
Image

...than his.
You can add some VG to take away the pitch pressure but thats also taking away your response time so use caution......most will tow with more than half VG.
Yeah. Eliminate your top attachment to eliminate your pitch control authority then compensate by cranking up your VG and eliminating your roll control authority. Great strategy. Reminds be a good bit of:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction
Diev Hart - 2011/07/14 17:19:12 UTC

I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now.
Do a couple and be ready to pin off right away (practice using your releases on your cheast...
Yeah. Practice making that easy reach...

01-001
Image
04-200
Image
07-300
Image
10-307
Image
15-413
Image

You'll be fine.
(I use the two barrel system (one on each shoulder/side))...
Both pins bent, of course, which makes it like using the no barrel release system if you're under any load.
...and add VG in steps......maybe just do a couple to 500agl (as long as it puts you back over your LZ).....
Yeah, be careful about going over five hundred. Don't fly any higher than the distance you're willing to fall until after you've gotten this stuff down.
The other issue with pro tow (see below) is you have to move your hand further to release yourself (not just over to the corner bracket/DT (break release) but back to your body to activate the release so it take a bit longer......
What the fuck. In either case your locking out glider will hold its attitude for you until you have the task completed.
...this is not good for someone just starting out towing as every second can count in a bad situation....
But when you're a proper pro toad like Dennis Pagen or Steve Elliot the seconds stop counting.
We now have a finger release (the break handle but with just a string) that some will use on the basetube and one side of your shoulder so your hands never leave the basetube and you are still using pro tow......it's a bit touchy the one time I used it but seems like a good idea in strong conditions.
Fuck that.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

I just buried my friend and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?

Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.
If this shit worked in reality we'd be using it everywhere.
Be safe
Diev -who will be towing in 2 weeks I hope.
So do I...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC4tdHAzh_M

Image
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7596/16577980269_1a9a0078a8_o.png
12-014409

...asshole.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: bridles

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=5874
Aerotowing line attachment
Bill Reynolds - 2008/03/09 19:14:59 UTC

Diev...just the feedback I was looking for...
I never had the slightest doubt that a response from that asshole would be just the feedback an asshole like you was looking for.
...thanks (hope I'm not hijcaking the thread skyhigh123).
You spelled "hicaking" wrong.
I recently switched to LMFP release that loops around the hand so you don't have to let go of the control bar to release...love it.
You should try the new and improved one - the one that they don't warrant as suitable for towing anything.
I'll have to try pro tow to see if I want to give up that peace of mind. When you're on tow and get thrown into a high bank and trying to correct, it's not easy to let go of the control bar to hit the release.
Bullshit. It's ALWAYS easy to let go of the control bar - regardless of what shit is hitting the fan. (Generally not possible to survive the consequences however.)
Socrates Zayas - 2008/03/09 19:21:57 UTC
Miami Beach

BEFORE YOU PRO TOW: What Kind of glider are you on? You really don't want to Pro-Tow every type of glider!!!
I don't wanna decertify ANY type of glider I fly - motherfucker. 'Specially for no sane reason.
Bill Reynolds - 2008/03/09 19:34:49 UTC

Hey Soc,

I'm the guy from the Ridge who bought Trevor's T2. I'll be flying that or my Discus. By the way, it was fun hanging with you and the rest last weekend.
Must be something in the water down there. You guys tried taking the salt out of it before you drink it?
Tom Benton - 2008/03/09 21:42:44 UTC

Here's a good visual:

Image
Nice trim point on the keel, Quallaby Release lever velcroed within easy reach on the starboard downtube, eight foot primary bridle probably with an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less at the top end, eight foot secondary bridle, bent pin backup release within easy reach on the right shoulder, probably a hook knife sheathed within easy reach on his harness. What's the worst that could happen? Fuckin' bulletproof if you want my opinion. Image
Craig Hassan - 2008/03/10 08:49:47 UTC

I find I prefer towing straight off my shoulders.
Good enough for you it's CERTAINLY good enough for a muppet such as myself, Craig.
There is heaps more pitch pressure to fight, but I feel the glider flies in a manner I am use to.
- Good. Then all that heaps more pitch pressure to fight shouldn't be a problem when the shit hits the fan.

- Are you sure you're using...

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Quest Air

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider.
...an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less?
The keel point I feel like I am just being drug around.
So exactly where is it that the tug's going that you'd rather not be going?
It is always a good idea to explore your options.
Especially the really stupid ones. And always make sure you ignore the kinds of things that have already happened to other assholes exploring really stupid options always expecting better results.
Many pilots much prefer the 3 point attachment...
Three point: pilot, pilot, and glider.
...and it does come with an extra ounce of ease.
Yeah...
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

Soon after lift-off the trike tug and I were hit by the mother of all thermals. Since I was much lighter, I rocketed up well above the tug, while the very experienced tug pilot, Neal Harris, said he was also lifted more than he had ever been in his heavy trike. I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending.

By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a twenty degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
An extra OUNCE of EASE. NONE of this is about safety and critical control in critical situations.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: bridles

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=5874
Aerotowing line attachment
Diev Hart - 2008/03/10 14:43:26 UTC

Thats the same one I have Bill...I didn't really like not being able to move my hand with out activating the release though...
Get the new and improved one then...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction
deltaman - 2011/07/14 08:33:59 UTC

LMFP RELEASE
U$139.95
http://estore.hanglide.com/Aerotow_Primary_Release_p/14-9004.htm

After several dysfunctions encountered by tandem, using a V-bridle and a 145kg wl on the apex, so a maximum load of 83kg on this primary release, I sent 3 times this email to fly@hanglide.com (LMFP contact) without any answer !!! :
Hello

I recently purchased one of your Aerotow Primary Releases for use in aerotowing tandem gliders. We conduct a tandem aerotowing operation just south of Paris, France.

We have been having considerable trouble releasing when the line is under high tension. It takes considerable effort to pull the Rope-Loop release, often requiring two or three violent tugs on the loop.
Diev Hart - 2011/07/14 17:19:12 UTC

I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now.
You should be fine.
...but like I said in stronger conditions I think I'll be glad I have it.....
So why would you need or want to move your hand during a tow in milder conditions? Besides, you're using an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less, right? So why is the inconvenience of an inadvertent release any more inconvenient than the inconvenience of an increase the safety of the towing operation?
Another thing people do is move that keel mount down to your biner to help take off some pitch pressure.....
Oh. Moving the trim point DOWN - lowering the thrust line to below trim - REDUCES pitch pressure. Maybe you could draw me a vector diagram illustrating just how that works.
(again take extreme caution and go in small steps (and grab an instructor to check your setup))
Try to get the same total fucking asshole who signed Diev off.
Craig Hassan - 2008/03/10 15:01:45 UTC

I would think having the keel attachment would reduce more pressure than using the biner, as a tow point.
None of you Jack Show assholes should venture too much into the field of THINKING - it just confuses the issues.
The keel attachment actually holds the nose down. Farther forward, the less bar pressure during the tow. (To far forward and you have to push out )
Aside from your spelling of "Too"...
Towing from the biner would act the same as towing from the shoulders only.
Yeah. EXACTLY the same. Split the tow tension in half, run half of it three feet higher, no change in the flight characteristics.
Other than 1/3 of the tow force being on the biner, instead of all of it on the harness.
Oh, yeah. A THIRD of it. It's a THREE point bridle after all. What was I thinking? Wouldn't make enough difference to be worth mentioning.
Since the glider would be pulled from the hang point on either scenario, wouldn't the bar pressure be the same?
I dunno, what did your instructor tell you? Wasn't that covered on the AT written test?
That is both more pressure than with the keel attachment point.
Do this "THOUGHT" experiment. Anchor the upper attachment on the suspension an inch below the keel. Then anchor the upper attachment on the keel at the hang point.
Diev Hart - 2008/03/10 16:07:34 UTC

yeah but it's less for just pro-tow and on long tows in nasty conditions anything helps....
Yeah, but it's just a third of the total tension - so big fuckin' deal.
skyhigh123 - 2008/03/10 17:18:15 UTC

Thanks for the replies so far.
Indeed! Fuckin' gold mine.
Diev's comments about pitch forces and speed of release give me something to think about as does Doc Soc's comment about type of glider.
Think about how many hands you need to resist the progression of a lockout - asshole.
The U2 does seem good on tow and using 1/2 to 2/3 VG felt fine and so did the pitch forces.
Cool. So then you don't need to worry about pro toad bar position.
I guess that having instant release is a big plus...
Well yeah. But...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release Image
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.

You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.
Everybody's already got that capability.
...and that practice and experience on the pro-tow release is essential.
Duh. How else are ya gonna become a pro?
I really don't want MG's experience as shown on a YouTube video which may have been posted on here before. (If you haven't seen it do a search on YouTube for "MG crashes his brains out")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_n5B3-MIC4
Mind you, I'm not suggesting his antics had anything to do with his choice of tow release.
Nah, his main problem was that...

04-1207
Image
05-1318
Image
06-1500
Image
07-1522
Image
08-1619
Image
09-1712
Image
10-1722
Image
11-1814
Image
12-1915
Image

...he was using a Tad-O-Link and endangering the tug.
Post Reply