I would like to share a bit of hard earned knowledge with all those who aerotow.
Hey Frank...
Dick Reynolds - 1992/11
Rising Fawn, Georgia
Four months have passed since my crash. Fortunately, I've regained control of the old brain, and would like to take this opportunity to pass on my experience in hopes that the rest of you might avoid a similar predicament.
Lookout Mountain Flight Park had acquired a new Moyes aerotug and I was the pilot - claiming 200 plus tows to date. At 11:00 AM on May 17, 1992 I had decided to take two more tows and then call it quits for the day.
The conditions on this particular morning were very light - great for towing. Takeoff went smoothly, with the glider then the tug lifting off, thus increasing my angle of climb. My airspeed was four mph above stall. I took my eyes off the indicator to watch the hang glider's progress when the engine abruptly seized. I can distinctly remember taking my hand off the throttle to wave the hang glider off, and it was at that point that I fully realized there was no time! I pulled the release and pushed the stick forward.
All this occurred somewhere around fifty feet. The combination of high nose angle plus the pull exerted by the climbing hang glider brought me to a screeching halt, so to speak. I believe my response time was less than a second, but this still me just hanging with very little elevator authority. The nose fell through the horizon to 30 degrees negative and the ground rapidly rushed toward me. I attempted to pull up at approximately 25 to 30 feet, with no response. My feet, butt, and gear impacted simultaneously.
I consider myself fortunate in that my friends were there to immobilize me. The doctors tell me that I'll be walking in a year or so, but that I shouldn't plan on winning any foot races.
I've spent a lot of time (sometimes it seems like that's all I've got!) talking with many knowledgeable individuals about this accident. I believe that tow pilot survivability can be improved as he/she passes through the "low and slow" envelope. From takeoff to a minimum safe altitude of approximately 150 feet, the tug will have to fly five or six mph faster. This will, of course, make it more difficult for the hang glider pilot, but will allow the tug more airspeed margin.
After 150 feet the tug may then be slowed to accommodate the glider. Until then the tug pilot should ready to release at the slightest indication of trouble. Doing so can yield that "fraction of a second" that will give the tug the edge. The glider will have ample speed and after releasing from his end should enjoy a safe landing.
Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.
Why don't you go ahead and elaborate a bit more on some of my mental deficiencies.
Also, he obviously has other mental health issues.
Obviously. So since you've got nothing else why don't just go into personal issues that are none of your fucking business.
miguel - 2012/05/07 17:22:51 UTC
Very poor taste, Bob.
And do remember to say hi to your buddy Bob for me.
Also his reasoning is circular and when cornered breaks out in outrageous jumps, pulling dead rabbits from flatten hats.
I find your latest post quite interesting. I must say it has taken me sometime to get used to or accept your writing style but you make some valid points. When you refer to "USHPA" you are actually referring to me, Chair of the USHPA Tow Committee. Our next Tow Committee meeting will be at Chattanooga, TN 23-25 October. Can you attend?
...my reasoning totally sucks. (By the way... What's a "flatten hat"?)
But on the reasonable level...
Oh, thank you so very much for bringing the discussion back to a reasonable level.
I think that we can all agree...
Who's "WE" Davis?
...that weaklinks should be as strong as possible without compromising their function which is to keep the hang glider from being broken by tow forces...
So let's look at a Sport 2 155...
- Maximum certified operating weight: 310 pounds.
- Glider's good for six Gs, let's make it five just to be on the safe side: 1550 pounds.
- Two - sorry, THREE (pilot and pilot and glider) - point bridle: 891 pounds. Let's round up to nine hundred.
- Pro toad: 775 pounds.
I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.
...the Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) releases will have no problem handling those loads.
...(and therefore hurting the pilot).
The pilot doesn't necessarily get hurt as a consequence of the glider being broken by the tow forces and he doesn't necessarily live if the weak link breaks well before the glider does - ASSHOLE. The purpose of the weak link has NOTHING to do with protecting the PILOT.
Tad doesn't agree...
Thank you SO MUCH for telling me what I agree with and don't. I could NEVER have figured that out on my own.
Tad,
I've found your posts on both hook-in checks and releases very interesting and well thought out.
Best of luck dealing with the Oz Report forum cult and its leader.
I confess to previously having a bit of an Oz Report habit, but the forced login thing has turned me off permanently, and I am in fact grateful. Frankly, the site had pretty much been reduced to a few dedicated sycophants in any case.
I've seen many times the destructive consequences of "control freaks".
You and your cult members and sycophants? Your Marc Fink / Kinsley Sykes types?
...no doubt do...
No doubt WHATSOEVER.
...that we are in a partnership with the tug pilot...
Depends a lot on WHO. No way in hell will I ever be in a partnership with any of the pigfuckers who pal around with you.
...and that he needs to be protected also...
Absolutely. That's why he's got a joystick, rudder pedals, and a dump lever. If he's depending on his weak link he's not doing the gene pool much good anyway.
...and therefore our weaklink has to be less than his.
Have you read the FAA *REGULATIONS*, asshole? OUR weak link is allowed to be up to two Gs (rather than the six you're proposing) and HIS weak link has to be heavier than OURS.
But what if ours IS heavier than his? How the fuck is he worse off for leaving us with the towline?
Something to bear in mind... the tug's weaklink is three strand.
For clarity... A normal single loop weaklink would be considered two. A tandem double loop is considered four.
In the tandem setup, the "weaklink" in the system is at the tug end, not the glider.
Ya'll seem to be missing this.
How come no tandem gliders are in a partnership with the tug pilot and use weak links less than his?
I'll check my weaklinks once again, to see if they are about 1.5 G.
Yeah you do that Davis. And get back to us.
Davis Straub - 2009/04/26 22:15:56 UTC
Yup, at least 175 pounds- single loop of Cortland Greenspot 130 pounds test.
That was one end of the loop in a barrel release where the edges are a bit sharper than where I normally connect the weaklink loop with cloth loops at both ends.
I was jumping a bit so it is more than 175 pounds. Maybe 200+.
Maybe two hundred plus.
1.25g at 175 pounds.
1.42 at 200 pounds. So it is likely more than that.
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
...more than that.
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).
Oh, we can't do that Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner). We need work in a partnership with you and therefore our weaklink has to be less than yours.
So Davis...
How come when Frank pulls a solo glider working in a partnership with him with a standard aerotow weak link - Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) - his Dragonfly...
...winds up upside down in a crumpled heap and half totaled with three cops taking notes on it? I always thought that the purpose of a standard aerotow weak link...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC
The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
...was to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD. And that...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC
Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.
It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.
...we had a proven system that works. So how come it didn't work?
But on the reasonable level I think that we can all agree that weaklinks should be as strong as possible without compromising their function which is to keep the hang glider from being broken by tow forces (and therefore hurting the pilot).
Hang gliders are certified to six Gs positive and...
Oops. I just realized I made a mistake. Should've said five Gs 'cause the tow force is in addition to the one G the glider's feeling normally when it's carrying our sorry asses.
So let's again knock off a G for some margin to take care of centrifugal force in a locked out turn, say he's only proposing four Gs - twice the FAA maximum - and redo the math for a pro-toad (thank you SO much for that one) on a Sport 2 155.
- Four Gs: 1240 pounds
- Bridle/Release tension:
-- 713 - two point
-- 620 - pro-toad
Using the generally specified 25 pound maximum allowable actuation effort that bent pin crap Mister Pro-toad "manufactures", pushes, and has on one of his shoulder that's EXACTLY four times lockup tension. I would take a hundred pound pull to blow it. But, of course, it would Weghorst on you at a fraction of that load.
And at that time - a couple of years before USHGA devolved yet another step into sleaziness and changed the word "Requirements" to "Guidelines" in the SOPs - releases were REQUIRED to be operable at twice weak link. 1240 pounds on a Bailey release - good freakin' luck.
But, of course, after saying:
...I think that we can all agree that weaklinks should be as strong as possible without compromising their function which is to keep the hang glider from being broken by tow forces...
he and all his Rooney caliber douchebag cronies go right on using and forcing everyone up on 130 pound Greenspot which blows left and right on midrange gliders and up at half a G. Trust me, the Davis Link that this asshole:
as if there's suddenly been an international/universal 54 percent upwards shift in standard aerotow weak link material when it's pretty fucking obvious that absolutely NOTHING has changed - or EVER will.
(Note how we've determined that two hundred pounds is now as strong as possible without compromising the function of keeping the hang glider from being broken by tow forces.
Sport 2 155:
1.3 Gs - pro-toad
1.1 Gs - two point
Somebody should warn USHGA and the FAA that their 2.0 limit is WAY too high.)
I've thought a lot about why he said that and I'm pretty sure that I now understand what's going on.
- In 2004 the FAA expands its aerotowing weak link regulations - which mandate a minimum of eighty percent of maximum certified operating weight - to cover hang gliders. This is the first time in the history of hang and para gliding that a minimum has been defined and we start getting away from Donnell's the-lighter-the-safer lunacy.
- But USHGA is EXTREMELY CONSPICUOUSLY silent about informing its membership of the change (seeing as how it would be extremely embarrassing to have people realize that this legal MINIMUM far exceeds USHGA's initial aerotow MAXIMUM regulation).
- On 2005/09/03 Jeremiah Thompson is killed along with his douchebag instructor when an illegally light tug end weak link blows. The family files a lawsuit which they drop after a crude but adequate coverup of gross negligence but the USHGA shits realize they have a serious problem.
- On 2006/03/15 the USHGA shits feign concern over the safety of tandem passengers and put out an advisory: http://www.ushpa.aero/advisory.asp?id=1
in which any mention of a weak link is EXTREMELY CONSPICUOUSLY absent.
- Around that time I start realizing realizing what a total load of crap we're being fed on this standard aerotow weak link bullshit and by 2008 I'm going ballistic.
- Around the end of the 2008 season then Towing Committee Chairman Gregg Ludwig starts realizing I know what I'm talking about and starts making a quarter assed attempt to get things fixed with my assistance.
- In the late winter / early spring of 2009 after USHGA treats me and my efforts to get things fixed with the contempt and hostility I should've expected if I had been smart enough to understand the minds of the Mark G. Forbes / Tracy S. Tillman caliber scum that controls this show I start going into whistleblower mode and USHGA goes into panic mode.
- The 2012/06 "Higher Education" weak links article by Dr. Trisa Tilletti is the flagship the USHGA disinformation campaign those shits are using to discredit me and protect their organization from legal and liability issues. That's made obvious in the article itself and in the last post by Mark G. Forbes - if things weren't obvious enough already.
- There is NO WAY IN HELL that a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot on the end of a one or two point bridle will EVER cease to be THE standard aerotow weak link, the focal point and foundation of the Flight Park Mafia's safe towing system.
- If weak links were upped to something in the middle of the safety range - two or three times what's being used now - it would DESTROY the reputations of Donnell Hewett, Dennis Pagen, Bill Bryden, Rob Kells, Bill Moyes, Bobby Bailey, Davis Straub, Steve Kroop, Russell Brown, Rhett Radford, Mitch Shipley, Jim Track-Record Rooney, Adam Elchin, Peter Birren, Dr. Tracy S. Tillman, Matt Taber, Malcolm Jones, David It's-What-We-Use Glover... Pretty much anybody you wanna name from the aerotowing branch of this sewer of a sport.
- And it would be an admission that T** at K*** S****** knew what he as talking about.
- And the admission that T** at K*** S****** knew what he as talking about would be an extremely slippery slope because it would open up the possibility that T** at K*** S****** might possibly be right on one or two other issues.
- So Davis saying:
Now do 200 lbs.
doesn't mean that anything's gonna change. It just means that we're now declaring that 130 pound Greenspot blows at 200 if you tie and install it properly.
- So when someone gets his face smashed in on video because of a standard aerotow weak link blow at half or three quarters of a G...
...and there's a lawsuit and/or FAA/NTSB investigation it'll NEVER be because of an illegally light 130 pound Greenspot weak link. It'll be because the pilot was negligent and:
-- didn't tie and/or install it properly
-- used it for too many tows (two or so)
-- failed to inspect it for damage on the preflight
-- got a bad batch of material from somewhere else
-- pushed out too hard
-- did a Mach 5 cart exit
-- slammed into the wall of propwash behind a 914 Dragonfly
And even in a fairy tale scenario in which the scumbags who control this sport suddenly developed iotas of decency and tried to make a shift to safe legal weak links...
- 99 percent of the participants in this sport are off the scale, Kinsley Sykes, Paul Hurless, Craig Hassan, Mark Fink, Lauren Tjaden grade stupid.
- For DECADES they've been getting sent up on Industry Standard releases that stink on ice and are hardwired to believe that:
-- it's impossible to equip oneself with a bulletproof hands-on-the-basetube release
-- at some point in their aerotow careers they WILL BE in a deadly low level lockout and their only hope of survival will be a proven standard aerotow weak link with a huge track record which, if they fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), will break before they can get into too much trouble.
- And it doesn't matter how many videos and fatality reports you show them as evidence of what a dangerous, stupid, insane...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
Actually, that is our expectation of performance for weak links on hang gliders here at Cloud 9, too. Primarily, we want the weak link to fail as needed to protect the equipment, and not fail inadvertently or inconsistently. We want our weak links to break as early as possible in lockout situations, but be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent weak link breaks from turbulence. It is the same expectation of performance that we have for the weak links we use for towing sailplanes.
...EXPECTATION that is - they're NEVER gonna abandon it. And they'll accept any number of missed flying opportunities and broken downtubes before they'll begin to question their expectation and what they're doing. You'd need an assault rifle to force most of these assholes up behind a Dragonfly on a 0.8 G loop of 140 pound Greenspot.
Footage from when Dad and I went to Dynamic flight in November to learn how to be tug pilots.
This weekend gone we ralised a dream and Dad towed me up at our own airpark, on Saturday evening, Sunday morning Dad towed me up at sunrise to 8000ft, was awsome, and then later in the day once the groung had baked up Dad towed me again to 1400ft where weak link broke and i made 70km direct or 100km route from the airpark. Footage of airpark flying to come later, enjoy the film.
snowbird - 2013/01/04 00:34:05 UTC
Florida/North Carolina
Very nice!
Tell us where in the world you are located.
AIRHEAD - 2013/01/04 01:23:50 UTC
Australia, victoria, west of Melbourne 150km at Dynamic Flight operated by Rohan Holtkamp, fellar who won the pre worlds. Nice bloke and great instructor, and obviously good pilot.
But teaching you to tow with a weak link that blows for no reason? Obviously not a great instructor or good pilot. And I don't give a rat's ass who won the goddam pre worlds.
Either you're new to this towing thing or you're trolling.
The weather's bad here, so I'll have a go at this one (for now)...
Because it did.
Plain and simple. Sometimes the mystic forces of the universe do strange and unusual things.
Was the glider stressed close to its structural limit?
AIRHEAD - 2013/01/04 04:14:08 UTC
My weak link broke when I hit a thermal on tow...
- As opposed to breaking when you hit a thermal off tow.
- Yeah, you CERTAINLY don't wanna be using a weak link that'll hold while you're towing in thermal conditions. This is hang gliding, dude.
...also my weak link breaks at 70_80kg.
And you're using flying one point. So you're saying 140 to 160 kilograms towline tension or as much as 353 pounds.
The max certified operating weight of the glider is about 314 pounds so we're talking about a 1.1 G weak link.
But I think you're using the Sacred String which has the advantage of blowing at whatever tension anyone feels like saying it does and that would put you at 0.8 Gs.
But let's give you the benefit of the doubt and give you 1.1 Gs - a little over half the FAA allowance. So WHY are you using that figure?
I weigh 75kg +litespeed+harness+pack up gear...
Irrelevant. We're only interested in the max certified operating weight.
...so when it broke glider not near its structal limit.
No shit. So then what the hell good was it doing or were expecting it to do for you?
Lemme run this scenario by you...
- You get slammed by a thermal at fifty feet and the glider stands on its tail.
- You stuff the bar but since you're a pro being pro toad not all that much happens.
- Your Sacred String increases the safety of the towing operation as it just did at fourteen hundred.
What happens next?
line went slack when trike hit it, then twang, rope went tight and snapped weak link.
Right. You were towing in normal thermal conditions and your fucking piece of fishing line blew for no reason.
IT was in control of the flight - not you or your dad on the other end.
You guys ever think about getting some competent instruction and learning to become pilots? Just kidding.
Very poor taste, Bob.
