I've moved the previous three posts from the "Videos" topic for the sake of continuity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ui8m0J4do8
Scary Ride
By which he means GOT popped - as opposed to anything he did.
My best effort of a transcription of the pre launch dialog:
Alright. Push back while you're on the dolly. You pull in and stay on the dolly too long. Ready?
Yep.
Crossing from the left a bit.
Yep, if you pull in you stay on the cart too long. Then you do what Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney calls a Mach 5 takeoff. And you SLAM into the propwash
Towing out in the desert, like it or not, you get to see it and see it in a big way - big ol' cloud of dust and rocks.
And you're wondering why you're breaking weak links???? Are you kidding me?
Think about it. You're going a million miles an hour under huge (relatively speaking) line tension as you come blazing out of the cart - struggling to stay down - and slam into turbulent air. Hell yes you're going to break your weak link. That's what it's there for!
You're subjecting it to massive loading. (The shock loading a weak link sees as you hit the propwash is far greater than people appreciate.) That's why you have it... it's doing its job.
Oops. Forgot we're not allowed to mention weak links in any context under any circumstances anymore. Ditto regarding Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney (strangely absent, once again, from the discussion.)
Cart monkey's an asshole. It's hard for anybody who's got any business being on a launch cart to stay on it too long. And Robert here's a semipro toad - has his upper attachment at the midpoint between where all the kool kids have theirs and the trim point the muppets use to maintain their gliders in certified configuration. And he sure doesn't stay on the cart too long. If he had this would've been just another boring AT launch video. And note how much time he spends with the bar fully stuffed during the solution phase.
Ron Wolff
Way to fly the kite, was that a rotor from the tug?
Yeah Ron:
- Way to fly the kite - which you get to do a lot more of when it's too goddam much of a bother to TRIM the kite.
- It was a ROTOR from the tug. Happens all the time. Those things are so powerful that the prop wash causes the air to start coming in from behind the glider. It can get pretty ugly on the odd occasion - like this one.
Robert Skinner
I think it was just a thermal rolling down the field, although it didn't hit the tug.
You mean the tug that didn't need to shove the stick full forward to maintain a safe climb rate? The tug which uses a bridle that lines up the towline with the centers of mass, drag, thrust? What are you using your bridle to line up with? Oh, right. You're just hooking up to your carabiner 'cause of the convenience consideration.
The next day 3 out of 4 gliders on carts waiting to launch got flipped off the cart by a thermal rolling down the field.
The fourth one was being attended by its owner who'd considered the possibility of a thermal rolling down the field.
MrFalcon195
This was really scary! And so close to the ground you didn't have much choice but continue...
Well, he made the right choice then.
Good job!
And great job trimming your glider! I think I'm gonna move my upper trim point way the fuck back and down in order to be able to bask in compliments like these when I narrowly miss eating it.
Clive Jones
Shame on the tug pilot in not releasing him?
- Definitely. They can fix whatever's going on back there by giving us the rope. They can rectify the crappy judgment they used in allowing the incompetent muppets in the first place by instantly morphing into superb judgment mode and making the precise right call at the precise right moment for us from 250 feet in front of us looking in a mirror while flying their own planes and dodging all the five hundred foot trees that encircle their flight parks.
- Shame on the glider pilot in not releasing himself? Thank you, Clive, accidentally acknowledging that the person on the glider has ZERO chance of releasing himself in any emergency situation using the appropriate bridle that Davis mandates and sells at all the u$hPa sanctioned comps. And the next time some u$hPa / Flight Park Mafia operative motherfucker like Joe Gregor writes in an AT fatality report that...
Joe Gregor - 2004/09
Highly experienced mountain pilot aerotowing a newly-purchased glider experienced a lockout at low altitude. Witness reports indicate that the glider began oscillating immediately after leaving the launch dolly. The weak link broke after the glider entered a lockout attitude. Once free, the glider was reportedly too low (50-65' AGL, estimated) to recover from the unusual attitude and impacted the ground in a steep dive. The pilot suffered fatal injuries due to blunt trauma. There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
...there was no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to impact we'll be able to trot out this video and discussion and point out the fact that there's no evidence that anybody in the history of Flight Park Mafia aerotowing has ever had any viable option for making an attempt to release.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Brad Gryder - 2013/02/21 23:25:31 UTC
There's also a way to swing your body way outside the control frame so it stays up there while you reach out with one hand and release. Come on - do some pushups this winter.
See if you can advance up to some one-arm pushups.
Still waiting for the video on that technique - or anybody describing how he so much as once practiced it in a drill - as well.
Robert Skinner
I'm glad she kept me on.
- Sounds like more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
- Now where have we heard something like that before?
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending. By the time we gained about 60 feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a 20-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver. I cleared the buildings, but came very close to the ground at the bottom of the wingover. I leveled out and landed.
Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany. The normal procedure for a tow pilot, when the hang glider gets too high, is to release in order to avoid the forces from the glider pulling the tug nose-down into a dangerous dive. However Neal kept me on line until I had enough ground clearance, and I believe he saved me from injury by doing so. I gave him a heart-felt thank you.
Pretentious asshole quack.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Danny Brotto - 2008/11/04 12:49:44 UTC
I came out of the cart rolled and yawed to the right with the upwind wing flying and the downwind wing stalled. It was rather dramatic. If I had released or if the weak link had broken, the downwind wing would have further stalled and I would have cartwheeled into terra firma in an unpleasant fashion. I held on tight gaining airspeed until the downwind wing began flying, got in behind the tug, and continued the flight.
Sunny later told be he was about to give me the rope and I thanked him to no end that he didn't.
Notice the way Danny references the focal point of his safe towing system while Dennis never heard of the elephant in the Jack's Living Room.
Would have whacked hard if she hadn't.
- But if you'd used an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less it would've kept you from getting into too much trouble and the resulting increase in the safety of the towing operation would've included a no-brainer perfectly timed landing flare.
- People have died as consequences of whacks a lot lighter than the one that, with a bit less going for you, you'd have experienced.
Flying Wolfe
April released a pilot at the Quest Nationals in '16 in a similar position and it ended in a fatality. Dumping the pilot isnt always a fix, especially that close to the turf.
- Funny that we've never heard the slightest hint of a comment from April on that one and that this, in fact, is the first we've heard her publicly identified. She's got nothing to hide, right? Did the best possible from start to impact given the circumstances, right? Her passenger DID relinquish his grip on the control bar with one hand for a good three quarters of a second - contrary to warnings we all get throughout our training and at the pilots meetings at all the comps. If he'd pulled a gun out of a harness pocket and blown his brains out would she have been any more to blame?
- The "pilot" had a name. It was Jeff Bohl. Are you not using it out of respect for his memory and family?
- Not all that similar. Both and the Tad-O-Link and Pilot In Command were a bit slow in recognizing the seriousness of and remedying the situation and Jeff understood that while one easy reach would kill a pro toad fast two easy reaches would kill one twice as fast. He was locked out and it was, within a very tight range, only a matter of when - not IF.
- Remember the decades when this discussion would be 99.9 to 100.0 percent about the use of an inappropriate weak link. It's STUNNING how totally and quickly the landscape changed with that ONE textbook incident less than 22 miles up the peninsula from this one.
Donnell Hewett - 1980/12
Skyting requires the use of an infallible weak link to place an absolute upper limit to the towline tension in the unlikely event that everything else fails.
Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation," and that "More people have been injured because of a weak link than saved by one."
Argument's over, Donnell. Took a third of a century's worth of death, destruction, insanity... but your name is fading fast from the history books. You're too much of an embarrassment to too many of the players.
- Especially that close to the turf?
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?
Tad Eareckson - 2009/07/04 00:46:06 UTC
There IS NO SUCH THING as "the limit for safe operation" with respect to tow line tension 'cause you can get killed BECAUSE you have ZERO tension (ask Helen) and you can be perfectly safe under tension which falls just shy of the point at which your port cross spar is gonna buckle.
Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/07/04 01:08:20 UTC
You really need to stop with exaggerating to the point of lying, just to try to make your point, its annoying and misleading.
If you are under ZERO tension, then you are simply a hang glider flying. You DO know how to fly a fricken glider dont you????
Tad Eareckson - 2009/07/04 11:50:50 UTC
Nope. I just know how to read, observe, and think.
Two things I'm sure of - death and taxes.
And one of the factors that goes into the first thing...
When you lose tow tension your angle of attack goes way up.
And if your angle of attack was way too high to begin with, your hang glider may not ever again be of any use to you or anyone else.
Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/07/04 12:13:01 UTC
Bullshit.
a) only the pilot can let the angle of attack increase when you lose tension. Thats 100% on the pilot. You are simply wrong and misleading again.
b) "And if your angle of attack was way too high to begin with..." Which should never be the case or youre making a pilot error. Again, you are misleading people.
This is the problem I have with you. You attempt to fallaciously attribute pilot errors to issues of mechanical towing devices or other things.
Sorry... but if you suddenly lose power, your nose just doesnt pop
Not really seeing the problem here. You DO know how to fly a fricken glider dont you????
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous
Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC
OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!
I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for shit.... LEARN TO LAND
That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???
Robert Skinner
Yep, this tug pilot...
THIS tug pilot? She doesn't have a name? Why do you feel her identity needs protecting even when you come out smelling like a rose? When Tiki Mashy exhibited all that FANTASTIC FLYING she did on 2016/11/06 while Richard Thorp was trying to figure out what to do with the launch dolly he'd snagged and taken up with him nobody had any problem identifying HER and singing her praises. What? This tug pilot wasn't flying as fantastically as Tiki was?
...questioned her decision...
She questioned the decision she made to maintain your thrust in a life or death situation? She'd never trained for - or even considered - a scenario like this before? So what emergency scenarios do you think she HAD trained, WAS prepared for?
...but I thanked her profusely for for not handing me the rope.
Oh really?
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.
You're only supposed to thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing and piling you into the turf when you and the focal point of your safe towing system (which, according to Dennis Pagen, should've functioned long before you reached any point of concern), were electing to continue the tow. By thanking her profusely for NOT handing you the rope you're conditioning her to make POOR decisions in the interest of your safety - not to mention the safety of all future pilots in similar situations. If you'd been a PRO (instead of just a SEMIpro) you'd have punched her out and called her a dangerous incompetent bitch who'd damn near gotten you killed.
And gee Dennis, you don't reference the slightest problem with blowing any of the Industry Standard releases anywhere in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden in any emergency situation. So why should any tug pilot ever make the assumption that any glider still on tow would be better off not on tow? Or is this proof of the bullshit you and your asshole buddy are feeding us that we'll never have the slightest problem with blowing any of the Industry Standard releases listed and illustrated in your bullshit book in any emergency situation?
I don't think we consider things from the tug pilots perspective enough.
It's not really OUR JOB to consider things from the tug pilot's perspective enough, asshole. WE pay THEM to get us to altitude safely. OUR job is to fly OUR plane as safely as possible for the duration of the tow. And if we do that - and all of us DO, for all practical purposes - we're automatically also maxing out the tug's safety.
And they don't really give flying fucks about OUR safety 'cause:
- no Dragonfly tows with a legal front end weak link configuration
- those douchebags ALL tow gliders with total shit:
-- bridle configurations - like yours
-- excuses for tow releases - like yours
-- for landing gear (yours is marginal)
-- understandings of what weak links are and what they're supposed to do for us
And what ill fate are you envisioning might have happened to her for our want of consideration for her perspective? Can you cite ANYTHING relevant from over a third of a century's worth of hang glider aerotowing. And bear in mind that for every flight an individual glider pilot makes the fuckin' tug pilot does fifty. So, all other things being equal, they should be dropping like flies relative to our population.
I'm was dangerous for her to keep me on.
Bullshit.
- Here's the worst we see you with your tug also in the same frame:
17-1821
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/962/40373978690_9aef9ff7ca_o.png
You're still lined up perfectly as far as what she's feeling. She's not even sure you're back there. Tell me how that differs from:
38-3306
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/829/27309745997_a8e3031fe8_o.png
as far as your idiot driver's concerned.
Compare/Contrast with:
5
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/900/26320843187_42024d4ef3_o.jpg
That glider's fuckin' SIDEWAYS to the Dragonfly at the other end that's just lifted off and Evgeniya doesn't have the slightest fucking clue that there's the slightest fucking issue at the back end of her rope. She's straight, level, doing fine. Maybe a little more right rudder than usual.
Also... Frame 17-1821 from your tow above is as out of straight and level as we ever see your Dragonfly.
If you're really worried about tug pilot safety then keep them out of:
- hang gliding 'cause they're as incapable of doing hook-in checks as they are of doing safety checks in aerotowing
- para gliding 'cause they'll contend that canopy collapses can be handled as quickly and safely as Standard Aerotow Weak Link inconveniences
The only thing worth mentioning that's ACTUALLY dangerous to a tug is the exact same thing:
that those motherfuckers have insisted for decades is the best and really only hope for any hang glider pilot's long term survival - an instant and total power failure on takeoff. Six times in a row in light morning conditions if ya really wanna do things right.
You titled this video "Scary Ride". She's watching you in her mirror and she's probably more scared than you are 'cause all she can do is maintain direction and power and hope that you have enough competency and luck to be able to pull it out. Neither of you are real sure you're gonna survive and she knows that if you don't she could get sued out of existence.
We usually have a hard time figuring out who was on the front end. (Case in point here - where we're lucky to have scored a gender to date.) You're not identifying your driver and she's not participating in any discussion. Probably 'cause she's too modest to wanna be known as the ace Dragonfly pilot who saved your incompetent ass at great risk to herself.
Tormod Helgesen
"Don't pull in or you stay on the cart to long" WTF! Does this operation TRY to kill People?
They all do - to some extent or other. They like to see glider people scared, intimidated, lacking in confidence. Helps inflate their images and consolidate control of our sport to their advantages.
Robert Skinner
I don't have my head around the logic either, but I'm sure there's a good reason.
Like maybe the sooner you come off the cart the easier it'll be for him to retrieve it? Think you might be able to wrap your head around THAT logic?
I didn't like to take the cart down the runway more than I needed for a safe launch so as soon as I felt I was in the ballpark I just EASED the nose up a tiny bit. If the glider lifted - and it always did - I just continued slowly sliding clear of the cart, pulled in a little when free to skim and build up more speed minus the cart, then started climbing out normally.
But that took a little thought, skill, subtlety. This asshole's been burned by assholes like Matthew Graham who take the cart halfway down the runway and lift it three feet into the air just to make damn sure. TEACHING's too much of a pain and none of these flight park assholes do it - 'cept for advice and clinics on how to perfect your flare timing - so he just tells you to hold the bar out so you wallow into the air and leave the cart behind using as little runway as possible.
And you do it.
Here's your keel still resting in, being supported by the cradle:
06-1316
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/959/42181255731_cd4beaf9b5_o.png
Here's as high as it gets before you separate:
08-1512
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/944/42181254471_eafa89b54f_o.png
and you're still pushed way the fuck out.
09-1606
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/829/41460443984_f80db8e3e8_o.png
10-1617
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/832/42181252181_3dc545c1fb_o.png
11-1700
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/970/41280650175_96c66444d8_o.png
12-1704
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/823/41280649535_3cfbc7a32d_o.png
You don't skim, you're pushed out and climbing, not leaving the cart behind... And then in under a second from that last frame:
15-1803
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/953/42181248861_265b7af8e2_o.png
You're fully stuffed trying to get speed, down, control, leveled.
He's got more AT experience than anyone else I know.
Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey had more experience than Robin Strid or anybody else knew - when he hooked up behind him a dozen seconds before he got pile driven back into the paddock at Hay. So the fuck what? There's only so good, skilled, knowledgeable one can get with aerotowing and none of it's anywhere near beyond the grasp of a halfway intelligent solid high Two.
This motherfucker put you on a cart with crappy equipment, gave you instructions that didn't make any sense to you - and shouldn't have - and in mellow conditions at the worst you came as close to getting killed as anyone I've ever seen whose been able to recover and fly away smelling like a rose. And you still don't understand what happened and why and the unidentified sonuvabitch isn't participating in the conversation and helping you out. And there's a REASON he's not doing that.
Flying Wolfe
Man needs to go buy a lottery ticket.
What? You don't think he has enough in the way of gambling going on by flying Wallaby?
Hazem Arafeh
Glad you are okay.
Tell me how he's OK. Came fairly close to getting killed on this one. What's he learned / gonna do differently to prevent something similar happening in any or all of his next dozen flights?
Was the tow behind a 582 or 912 engine?
Robert Skinner
Yeah, I'm glad I'm OK too.
You're not. Not if you're planning on continuing aerotowing anyway. You got killed for the purpose of the exercise and have learned NOTHING. You were rolling dice on the last one, you'll be rolling the same dice on the next one.
It was a 582 ... Not sure if it would have been better or worse with a 912.
- She took off at FULL POWER. She never DECREASED the power. Continuous power was what allowed you the control speed you needed and used to recover - barely. Pick one.
- Ease up on the gas and the 912 converts to a 582. Doesn't work the other way around. And have you ever heard anyone say, "DAMN! If only I'd had less power to work with!"?
- What was the engine on the only other incident (fatal) mentioned in THIS discussion?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart
Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC
Which brings us to the reason to have a 914 in the first place... you need one.
Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582. 914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain. If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing.
There's one thing that total fucking douchebag has said about which no one's ever had the least degree of disagreement
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly
Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC
You will only ever need full throttle for the first fifty feet of a tandem tow. Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.
Don't seem to be having that problem anymore. Any thoughts on why not? And, for extra credit, the implications? 'Specially with respect to your recent situation?
21-1927
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/968/41280644535_f2afe7b9ac_o.png
