Weak links

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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<BS>
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Re: Weak links

Post by <BS> »

Dirt pattern?
Yeah, a rectangular pattern at the top of the shoulder strap. Caused by the nylon strap forming a raised portion between the yellow harness fabric and the underlying foam.
Can't find where I might have given that impression.
Primary mission was to see if we could verify that Zack was using the same precision fishing line he was reported to have used to turn the next day tow into a mega-embarrassing and history changing incident.
Does anyone use weaker?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Nah, NOBODY...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap
Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

I rarely break weak links -- in fact, I believe the last one was some two years ago, and I have never broken one on a tandem (probably because I am light and also because I change them whenever they show any signs of wear). They are a good thing to have, though!!
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC

You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.

I'm sorry that you don't like that the tug pilot has the last word... but tough titties.
Don't like it?
Don't ask me to tow you.

Go troll somewhere else buddy.
I'm over this.
...EVER ANYWHERE wanted anything five pounds safer than 130. No 200 pound little girl glider (see Lauren above) ever insisted on having the same pitch and lockout protection that the 320 pound big guy gliders had. No pro toad ever wanted a fifteen percent reduction to stay even with the two pointers. And change it frequently 'cause this is about all the safety we can handle.

This had been worked out through hundreds of thousands of trail-and-error cycles before Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney arrived; and, anyway, we all play by the same rules or we don't play.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC

A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28247
What happened at quest today
Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/09 12:32:57 UTC

one strand is 130 lb, two strands, (one loop), is more. And I don't think it was Greenspot.
Oakdude, thanks.
Please start another thread if you want to argue about this. This thread is for Zack.
Actually... John Claytor went on the record expressing his preference for fuzzed ones but we all saw just how well that worked out for him when the Safety Committee at the 2014 called the day after one strong crosswind launch effort too many.

I wanted this to be PRECISELY 130. Five pounds more and those motherfuckers would've been screaming their lungs out from the highest towers in the kingdom about the insanity of using Tad-O-Links to trade off safety for convenience. And they couldn't go an ounce lower 'cause that would've just further undermined the deadly Industry Standard bullshit about appropriate weak links very clearly providing protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns, and the like for that form of towing.

Motherfuckers didn't know how they were gonna do damage control after this one. They'd already gone public with doubled Standard Aerotow Weak Links and 200 prior to the disaster and there was a brief period when they were easing into deciding to be publicly happy with 200 but then they realized what a disaster that would be for the forces of darkness, kept a lot of Marzec Links in circulation, and started shutting the fuck up about strengths, materials, magic knots, purposes.

Bart just made the mistake of trying to sound professional and intelligent on the issue, we tore him a new asshole like nobody's ever seen before, and we're now closing in on 48 hours of deafening Jack Show silence. Bart was logged back in at 2018/09/15 23:33:33 UTC but knew he didn't have a ghost of a prayer of digging his way out of the shit pile he created for himself and all the motherfuckers on the worlds largest hang gliding community are keeping as silent as tombs.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7230
Towing question
Martin Henry - 2009/06/26 06:06:59 UTC

PS... you got to be careful mentioning weak link strengths around the forum, it can spark a civil war ;-)
Not anymore, asshole. We fire ONE SHOT and all the mainstream douchebags immediately shut up and start tiptoeing away backwards.
---
P.S. - 2018/09/17 14:30:00 UTC

At 2018/09/17 14:00:00 UTC the Kite Strings to Jack Show hits counts were 124 to 413. Pretty even thirty percent. And those assholes are still treating the topic like the plutonium it is for them.
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<BS>
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Re: Weak links

Post by <BS> »

While towing with a 200 pounder will get you past more inconveniences, if your release is crap and you're protoad, you could still end up in the same unhappy boat as Zack.
Steve Davy
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Re: Weak links

Post by Steve Davy »

Zack did not "end up" in a boat but rather a coffin. Idiot killed himself by way of ignorance and was not at all unhappy because he was dead!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLTDPeB55ek


How's that whole new world working out for you, Zack?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Pretty good I'm guessing...

Image

Put his faith in all the right places. Pity they don't permit one to communicate back to us clueless earthbound muppets any thoughts about what might have been done differently the afternoon he kissed this old world bye-bye.

Or maybe they DO...

02-00820c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7252/27169646315_9af9a62298_o.png
Image

...but just to select individuals in the Priesthood who can dispense the information as they see fit.

God and AT Instructors sure do work in mysterious ways.
---
P.S. - 2018/09/18 12:10:00 UTC
Donnell Hewett - 1981/10

MY PRIORITIES

Those of you who do not know me personally may wonder - if skyting is really all that it's claimed to be - then why don't I spend more time, more money, and more effort in developing it to its completion? The reason is simply a matter of priorities. Development of the skyting technique, as important as it is, simply is not at the top of my list of priorities.

My first priority belongs to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, my Savior and Lord. Considering all He has done for me and the love we have for one another, I can do nothing less than commit my life and all that I have to Him and His service. If you know Him personally, then I'm sure that you understand my feelings and will agree that Jesus beats anything this world has to offer - including hang gliding. If you never come to meet Him, then ask someone to introduce you - believe me, until you do, you don't know what you're missing.
Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation"...
Full fucking circle. If reality doesn't fit into your theory / personal belief systen then, hell, just ignore it. Really doesn't matter that much one way or another 'cause you're going on to a better place anyway.

Welcome to hang gliding and the individuals who molded and control it.
---
P.P.S. - 2018/09/18 12:20:00 UTC

Hey Donnell...

Are you THAT fucking sure that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, your Savior and Lord is THAT fucking cool with such total contempt for the earthly lives of the decades of victims of your personal faith based take on aeronautics?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

I think we've just witnessed the last time - 2018/09/14 17:58:16 UTC - one of these AT Industry dickheads will be stupid enough to whisper a single public word on the issue of the focal point of a safe aerotowing system. One of the last crumbles in a three and a half decade long Ponzi scheme.

- One G will keep you from getting into too much trouble.

- A single loop of 130 pound Greenspot precision fishing line:

-- on the end of a one or two point bridle puts all solo gliders at precisely 1.0 Gs. For a tandem double it and put it on the end of a two point bridle and you're at precisely 1.0 Gs.

-- breaks at whatever pressure we feel like saying it does - but more consistently if it's tied onto the bridle better.

-- is used because:
--- it's always had an extremely long track record.
--- Davis Dead-On Straub is happy with it.
--- we all play by the same rules or we don't play.

-- can sense the difference between lockout and turbulence generated pressure increases and succeed or fail to succeed as called for in the situation.

-- is the focal point of a safe towing system and a virtual Swiss Army knife for dealing with all manners of aerotowing issues.

-- on a pro toad bridle is incapable of getting a single comp glider off the ground in light morning conditions in six attempts so double it. But be sure to tell your tug driver if you're playing by the new same rules so he can yank you off the ground at full afterburners.

- The 2012/06 fourteen page article on AT weak links which showed how to tie a loop of 130 pound Greenspot such that it would comply with the FAA AT regs - which, we found upon reading the article, had been expanded to cover hang gliders eight years prior - for all solo gliders was The Industry's last gasp Battle of the Bulge offensive. It blew up in their faces with the Zack Marzec inconvenience fatality at Quest eight months later.

- We'll never have any idea what really happened when the focal point of Zack Marzec's safe towing system succeeded at the worst possible time, when his pro toad glider was climbing hard in a near stall situation. And anybody who DOES have an idea of what really happened is engaging in pure speculation and that's grounds for him having his AT rating permanently revoked.

- Nobody cites the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden for anything anymore. It was total garbage when it came out two decades ago and hasn't improved with age since.

- Team Kite Strings fuckin' DEMOLISHED Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, hang gliding's then reigning expert on everything, in the course of the Zack Marzec postmortem discussions.

- When Jeff Bohl got killed 2016/05/21 in a low level lockout at Quest with his underpowered Dragonfly tug struggling to keep out of the trees nobody breathed a word about the issue of his Tad-O-Link not breaking when it was supposed to - and killing the passenger and endangering the tug.

- The flight parks and comps erected walls of silence about what they were using for AT weak links and what they were supposed to do.

- Highland Aerosports and Cloud 9 are now totally extinct and their operators have all vanished without traces.

The shit got piled up about ten feet higher than anything sustainable and now it's only possible to attain a partial working understanding of what a weak link does and what strength you're supposed to use to do it by going back to the AT operation - Cowboy Up for example - that certified you three months ago and getting them to recertify you. 'Cause this issue is way too complex for any solid information to be described in print. Hell, Dr. Trisa Tilletti tried in the course of fourteen pages of illustrated and footnoted magazine article. And if that didn't work then nothing will.

Ya really need five or ten years of experience running an AT operation to get a minimal understanding of the issue but we're all doing the best we can.

The only thing accurate that can be said is...
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
...exactly what T** at K*** S****** started saying a dozen years ago and nobody can afford to make any statements along those lines.

Bart came on at 2018/09/14 17:58:16 UTC and got what little he had left in the way of balls handed to him on a platter two posts later at 2018/09/15 05:23:24 UTC. And suddenly there's no more interest in pursuing the discussion of this critical AT safety issue.

I have Bart logged on to The Jack Show subsequent to that knockout post at 2018/09/15 23:33:33 UTC and 2018/09/17 16:38:04 UTC. He knows he can't even use the tried and true Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney / Dr. Trisa Tilletti tactic of declaring victory and walking out of the conversation 'cause the moderators are tolerating so much incivility.

No more interest in the subject (plutonium) I guess. It's now drifted down to the Jack Show No. 7 slot. And I think it will be a reasonably cool day in hell before anyone broaches the topic again.

P.S. Notice there's no discussions about surface tow weak links 'cause the only pilots involved are the ones flying hang gliders. In AT we've got powered ultralight flyers controlling our flavor of aviation.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

<BS> - 2018/09/17 16:20:08 UTC

While towing with a 200 pounder will get you past more inconveniences, if your release is crap and you're protoad, you could end up in the same unhappy boat as Zack.
I wouldn't worry about it...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Davis Straub - 2013/03/10 14:09:22 UTC

I've had no problem releasing my barrel release hundreds of times.
Davis has had no problem releasing his crap protoad bent pin barrel release hundreds of times.
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<BS>
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Re: Weak links

Post by <BS> »

Yeah and by that same concussed logic there's no worry that when you're flying protoad with the bar stuffed you'd ever need to pull in more but can't.
Image
That'd just be an incorrect understanding.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Yeah. And we all know what the hang gliding definitions of "correct" and "appropriate" are. Pretty much synonyms for...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)
Mark G. Forbes - 2015/03/30 23:29:59 UTC

Please, no speculation

Meanwhile, please refrain from offering speculation or opinion on what might have happened, what might have been theoretically done to prevent it and so on. Emotions are raw, people are hurting, and uninformed speculation doesn't help anybody. News reports are of little use since they're written by people who have no idea how our sport works or what is typical.
..."typical".

---

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57186
2018 Santa Cruz Flats Race
Davis Straub - 2018/09/19 04:09:35 UTC

I got Bobby Bailey to tow me again and sure enough he just went right to the first thermal he could find as he always does to help him climb in his 2-stroke Dragonfly and I pinned off early again as I do when he tows me at 1,500' and climbed right out to 3,800' and a bit later to 4,700'.
Yeah? He's not flying a 914? I hear those things...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart
Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

Which brings us to the reason to have a 914 in the first place... you need one.
Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582. 914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain. If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing. Short runways, tall trees, whatever. You've got a 914 to increase your safety margin. So when it comes down to my safety or having a conversation, we're going to have a conversation. Wether you chose to adjust is then up to you.
...increase the safety of the towing operation - get both planes up over and away from the trees, through the kill zone a lot faster. Wouldn't Jeff Bohl have been better off if April had been able to climb steeper, clear the trees, been able to maneuver back to the left and in front of Jeff? The way Bobby maneuvered in back in front of Robin Strid and at least gave him a few more seconds before the focal point of Robin's safe towing system tied itself to the "release" Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey had "engineered"?

So...

http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks
Davis Straub - 1999/06/06

During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout
Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC

I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.
...how visibly upset was Bobby this time about you using a tandem strength lockout protector with only one person on the glider behind him? 'Specially flying a 582?

P.S.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
Maybe you had so many breaks so quickly because you didn't double up after half as many in a row. I'da thunk...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC

Naw.
Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.
...you might have run the math on that one.

P.P.S. And here I was thinking that the whole reason 130 pound Greenspot precision fishing line was the only acceptable AT weak link material was because of its legendary consistency. So if you were able to get to altitude...

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble
Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
...every other tow wouldn't THAT have been cause for concern?

P.P.P.S. And meanwhile, back on The Jack Show:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=36170
Weak Links?

is currently buried down under ten more current and, no doubt, more important topics - half of them started (and finished) by Roadrunner71 / Chris McKeon.
Steve Davy
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Re: Weak links

Post by Steve Davy »

I'da thunk you might have run the math on that one.
Now let's have a look at some Davis Straub math.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=559
Protow vs. weaklink
Davis Straub - 2005/02/21 10:44:27 UTC

Actually

The force on the weaklink is equal to the force on the tow line divided in half further divided by the cosine of the (angle between the two legs of the protow line divided in half). So as I wrote in a message recently:

Let's do a little calculation to look at the hypothetical (totally hypothetical) tow pressures on a weaklink connected to the end of a protow bridle.

Angle 120 force 300 half force 150 150 resultant 300 300

Let's say the force is 300 lbs (foot-lbs). Let's say that the angle formed by the two legs of the protow bridle is 120 degrees (it is likely much less, but this is to illustrate a point). Then the resultant force on the weaklink is 300 lbs.
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