Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

Steve...

Possibly, but Wills Wing does specify that setup on the U2 and Talon.

And seeing as how Wills Wing doesn't design their gliders to be motorized, tethered, or towed (just to be SOLD to be motorized, tethered, or towed) they can specify whatever the fuck they feel like for whatever the fuck they feel like.

Interesting that while they also don't design - and no way in hell could ever certify - anything to be foot launched or landed...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...they don't feel the need to bring THAT issue to the attention of the perspective customer or owner.

And given what they say (Rob Kells feels like pulling outta his ass roughly based on what Joe Dickhead happens to be doing at Quallaby) about the U2 and Talon:

http://www.willswing.com/aerotow-release-attachment-points-for-wills-wing-gliders/
Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders - Wills Wing

The Sport 2, U2s and Talons may be "Pro towed" without a top release, however this method is not as easy as using a two point release as described above. Towing without a top release will cause the base tube to be positioned much further back during tow , the glider will have increased pitch pressure, and lockouts are much more difficult to correct.

one doesn't NEED to even use another point ANYWHERE. No safety compromise, of course. It's just that your lockouts...

lock
- a device used to prevent the operation or movement of a vehicle or other machine: a bicycle lock.

...will be much more difficult to correct. But what the hell, who amongst us can say he couldn't benefit from a bit more in the way of exercise? (Kinda makes one wonder, however, if the lockout can be CORRECTED with more difficulty how one managed the get into the lockout in the first place. (Any thoughts on that, Ryan?)

But to make things easier, less inconvenient:

U2 145, 160 - On pilot's hang loop or carabiner - Set VG to 1/2
Talon 140, 150, 160 - On pilot's hang loop or carabiner - Set VG to 1/2

So where the fuck is "the pilot's" hang loop or carabiner? (At least he spelled it right.)

There's no standard harness suspension length so a carabiner could be pretty much anywhere from just below the keel down to, in theory, just over the pilot's back. And on the high performance stuff performance freaks (such as Yours Truly) eliminate the carabiner and bolt the harness suspension directly to the glider's suspension hardware above the keel.

Then this little caveat - applicable to ALL of their gliders - down at the end:

Note: The higher the top tow point the better. If the glider is equipped with a DHV (longer than Wills Wing standard length by 8 inches) it is better to tie the release to the keel rather than attach it to the hang loop.

OH! The HIGHER the top tow point the BETTER. Meaning everything you wrote about anything BELOW the keel is pretty much total bullshit.

How 'bout if we extend that concept by moving forward on the keel from the hang point? Or does it just automatically/arbitrarily take a nosedive beyond what you told us? Obviously not 'cause for all your gliders south of the U2 you specify increments forward on the keel. And for the aftmost of those you specify:

Sport 2 135, 155 - On keel, at back of bottom surface zipper - Set VG to 1/2

The glider's ideal trim point is as far forward as you can access the keel without unzipping the lower surface. What a fortuitous coincidence.

BULLSHIT. You douchebags were just too stupid, incompetent, lazy to do THIS:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8305999131/


And I'll claim credit for that particular innovation until somebody can present reasonable evidence to the contrary.

THIS:

Towing without a top release will cause the base tube to be positioned much further back during tow...

is all you say regarding the ACTUAL issue here - which is to trim the glider such that at your...

The assumed tow speed is 32 miles per hour.

...assumed tow speed is 32 miles per hour - which I think is a few miles per hour optimistic even for a Dragonfly - your bar position should be about the same as it would in normal hands-off free flight trim. We wanna be flying your fucking gliders on tow in something reasonably close to certified configuration. And the only instructions in which we can have any reasonable degrees of trust are for your single surface Falcons and your Eagles - for which you tell us to unzip the lower surface fourteen inches.

By the way, Rob... How'd your Eagles do in their HGMA certification flights with fourteen inches of their lower surfaces unzipped?

Guess it's a lot more fun to write total crap like this than to do the job right and build a quality release system - like the design I offered you for free a dozen or so years back - into your fucking gliders.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736
Increase in our USHpA dues

Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC

There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.

Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.

Fuck you guys.

Brian...

I noticed the stills weren't posted in advance this time.

Yeah, I'm sure that's a first for me. But the way this one unfolded I felt I needed to start by dealing with the comments from the YouTube post.

And y'all notice the conspicuous absence of discussion of this one on both the Jack and Davis Shows? That's OBVIOUSLY 'cause this is fucking GOLD for Team Kite Strings and likewise a monumental embarrassment for the u$hPa establishment.

Although the subsequent one shows more dramatic control inputs and what looks like a closer proximity to the ground, this is my favorite.

17-1821
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/962/40373978690_9aef9ff7ca_o.png

DEFINITELY. That was my pick o' the litter too. The money shot no question whatsoever.

Totally and majorly locked out for all intents and purposes at a lethally low altitude, suspension spreader set stupidly low, bar stuffed, straining against the port tail wire, knees coming forward, holding his breath, praying for the ground to stop coming up so fast, a little bit of horizon and all of the nice level tug visible - straight out in front in ideal normal position, Pilot In Command not fixing whatever's going on back there by giving her passenger the rope, semipro toad connection illustrating how totally normal/mild the tension is...

There's NOTHING the slightest bit close to this ANYWHERE.

19-1912
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/831/41280645295_1def689ff5_o.png

'Cept for the shadow combined with our knowledge of this being shot from a short focal length wing mounted camera this could've been taken by another plane with a telephoto lens of the glider at a thousand feet. It nearly totally fails to convey the seriousness of the situation - which you get by watching the video or the still in context with the others in the sequence.

And what does he use for a title shot?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ui8m0J4do8




Doesn't quite even show half the tug that just kept him alive by not making a good decision in the interest of his safety ten seconds earlier.

Here's my selection:

34-2805
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/826/41460437604_8506a64cc6_o.png


six frames / 0.2 seconds after his.

P.S. Interesting how the framing changes due to camera mounting/area flexing.

Not as interesting as when the camera's mounted to a...

005-003441
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/842/40764766775_b927667ff0_o.png

...which freely rotates in its mount.

Something else I noticed and found interesting in this series...

18-1903
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/963/40373977440_faf1e5088b_o.png


Even with the glider totally chopped out of the photo...
---
Edit - 2018/05/29 17:30:00 UTC

Like this:

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1752/40627904380_3fcc071e74_o.png

---
...you'd be able to tell where the camera was mounted with fair accuracy by looking at the (somewhat faint) glory around the wingtip.

The only thing disappointing in this video is that the lighting, landscape, colors, exposure, color saturation all totally suck. Compare/Contrast with:

23-10629
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1843/44410454212_5ffcaa5588_o.png

[Steve Davy]

I'm saying that if Robert had attached his release to the carabiner as per Wills Wing then it's a stretch to say that he did it for convenience.

And now that I think about it some more, attaching to the carabiner would be a total pain in the ass anyway as one would need to detach the thing (or get out of the harness) in order to leave the glider.

[Tad Eareckson]

Well, he certainly is a good boy about doing what he's told - for the sake of somebody else's convenience. When Malcolm tells him to push back while he's on the dolly such that he comes off as quickly as possible and makes Malcolm's retrieval job as convenient as possible he follows the instructions to a T. (And nearly pays with his life.)

The connection's no more of a pain than the one to our critically important backup loop. It's just another loop. During the 1991 Dragonfly Demo Tour, which at Currituck was my first and last contact with Malcolm, one hundred percent of gliders were hooked up that way. My extremely pitch stable Comet 165 towed very comfortably - but I didn't have Robert's mile long glider suspension to help lower the thrust line.

Over the years through extensive trail and error based devolution it was found that it was necessary to turn carabineers around backwards such that the gates wouldn't be blown open from the inside by the enormous pressure transmitted through the upper bridal half and Standard Aerotow Weak Link.

Simultaneously it was also determined through much trail and error that the parachute bridal loop would ride up to the top of the carabineer much more smoothly with the gate locking barrel in its path.

And when I took a close look at Robert's suspension to try determine whether or not he was subscribing to that flavor of astounding idiocy...

27-2215
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/964/41280641665_fcaf1da360_o.png


He's pulling off the bottom of the hang loop - not the carabiner. And he's using one of Joe Street's releases. Gotta give him credit for that much. And the carabiner's properly installed.

I'd been wondering where the lump was but didn't focus in as the release wasn't really an issue on this one. It really was though - as the tug driver was in the usual mindset that, failing a perfectly timed weak link success, she'd be the only hope for fixing whatever was going on back there.
---
2018/05/20 13:25:00 UTC

The fact that he's using a Street release is a MAJOR piece of the picture. Tells us...

This is a guy who went out of his way to do the most critical aspect of AT right. And that along with one of the other critical aspects, properly trimming the glider, half right - and pretty much above and beyond the call of the bullshit he was fed by his glider's manufacturer. And he says NOTHING about praying that the focal point of his safe towing system wouldn't increase the safety of the towing operation so it's not a bad bet that he was using a Tad-O-Link.

He had the option of blowing tow at any point he felt like it without noteworthy control compromise - all he had to do was slide his left hand inboard a bit while holding pitch pressure - and he didn't take it. And note that nobody on the YouTube page discussion - even Tormod - was stupid enough to suggest that he should've done anything differently once he'd left the cart.

[<BS>]

Even with the glider totally chopped out of the photo you'd be able to tell where the camera was mounted with fair accuracy by looking at the (somewhat faint) glory around the wingtip.

Cool.

"Don't pull in or you stay on the cart to long" WTF! Does this operation TRY to kill People?

I don't have my head around the logic either, but I'm sure there's a good reason.

I want to credit Robert for creating this video. He did highlight the instruction that precipitated the event. He's careful not to disparage the source, but it seems to me he's trying to reconcile getting deadly/shit advice from someone who has much more experience and in this case likely the ability to limit his flying and/or the comity in which it takes place. I'm guessing he no longer pushes out while on the cart.

[Tad Eareckson]

I want to credit Robert for creating this video.

Massively. I can't think of another AT launch video that comes so close to being fatal in which the glider continues on without anybody suffering so much as a grass stain.

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

This video is poison to the worlds largest hang gliding community's version of the sport. And in a sane aviation world this would be mandatory viewing for those working on a sign-off.

He did highlight the instruction that precipitated the event.

At first all he had to say was "Scary Ride" and "Popped off the cart ..." But fortunately we could make out what Malcolm was saying and identify him.

He's careful not to disparage the source...

Or even identify it. As I started watching on my first pass I was thinking Quest before we got a bit of altitude. Malcolm's T-shirt, by the way:

Wallaby Ranch
MOYES BOYS
2G 20
REUNION

Would've been 2015.

...but it seems to me he's trying to reconcile getting deadly/shit advice from someone who has much more experience and in this case likely the ability to limit his flying and/or the comity in which it takes place.

I was ALWAYS biting my tongue and pulling a lot of punches when I had a flying career.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

Also not the slightest reason to bite my tongue or pull any punches anymore - motherfucker.

Most of these assholes make their money on tandem thrill rides so they can treat the legitimate solo recreational pilot any way they feel like. Make it past tense for Highland Aerosports and Cloud 9 - to name a couple.

I'm guessing he no longer pushes out while on the cart.

If he responds to this instruction and experience the way the sport at large did to Infallible and Standard Aerotow Weak Links he'll be pushing out while on the cart for decades to come and constantly wondering if the problem is that he's not pushing out soon and hard enough.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.facebook.com/rob.skinner.9216?fref=ufi&rc=p
Rob Skinner

NMERider

That was scary. Any idea why it happened?

Same kinda total shit aerotow operation in which...

053-03828
http://live.staticflickr.com/2928/14422781117_a4a3b72ee6_o.png


...the safety of your first effort on 2011/09/19 was increased by a loop of precision fishing line with an extremely long track record.

Rob Skinner

Thermal came rolling in just as I left the cart.

Can't begin to tell you how many times that's happened to me when I push back while I'm on the dolly to keep from staying on the dolly too long. Also happens to me a lot at Woodstock when I push back to keep from staying running down the slot too long. But I'm guessing you must've scored an incredible XC flight afterwards. How far up into Georgia did you make it on that flight? And how come you haven't told anybody about any of the subsequent epic thermal activity?

By the way... Did Malcolm - or anyone else in the launch area - verify that that's what happened?

Steve Benn

That looked like it was getting close to release time!

Why do you think his weak link failed to succeed when it was supposed to? And how good an idea is it anyway for us mere muppets to be second guessing the decisions of the focal point of our safe towing system?

Rob Skinner

Pretty sure the only thing that saved me was the tug.

Let's not discount the superb judgment displayed by your Standard Aerotow Weak Link. Can you imagine what might have happened had you used less precise fishing line with a vastly inferior track record? It might have broken...

17-1821
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/962/40373978690_9aef9ff7ca_o.png


...before you could've gotten into too much trouble. (What Wallaby doesn't tell you about is the trouble you may get into after and as a consequence of it breaking before you could get into too much trouble.)

Mark Dowsett

It looks like you came off the cart a touch slow maybe...

- Ya think? A TOUCH slow? Maybe?
- Just as a thermal - that didn't affect the tug or any wind indicators in the vicinity - was breaking off. What are the odds!

...your keel barely floated before leaving the cart.

His KEEL? How 'bout the leading edges, cross spars, control frame, flying wires, sail? What were they doing while the keel was barely floating?

Maybe the keel was a touch high.

Yes, the keel DOES intersect with the leading edges at the NOSE. But when we're talking about the KEEL in this context we're referring to the exposed aft section that extends aft from the sail and rear tail wires junction - the TAIL. The other end we refer to as the NOSE.

I prefer the keel a touch lower...

If it had been a touch lower it would've still been jammed in its cradle. THIS:

07-1406
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/968/41460444664_3f4a1e3032_o.png


is as high as it gets before separation from the cart.

...but that requires me to pull in more prior to starting to roll but you then can really feel the keel lift and float more before letting go of the cart (it all happens so fast).

But then Malcolm has to go WAY farther out just to get to the empty cart. And then he has to come WAY farther back. Ya inconsiderate bastard.

Rob Skinner

The keel thing makes sense...

If it does then that's a big part of your problem.

...but to stay on the cart longer should I Resist the initial pull, then pull in some, or just hang onto the hoses a little longer ?

It's not rocket science, ferchrisake. If you can't handle a dolly launch how the hell do you ever manage to do things on foot? Or on tow or in free flight for that matter?

Mark Dowsett

You certainly do have to resist the initial pull to get rolling or you 'could' get pulled thru the control frame.

You COULD. Nobody's ever captured on video, seen, reported, heard of this actually happening. But you COULD. Seems to me you'd hafta try pretty hard to do anything that mattered 'cause - believe it or not - when you're getting pulled so is the glider and thus the cart on which it's parked.

Even before startibg to roll though, I like to pull my body into the faster-than-trim position that you find is right for ATing your specific glider . it requires a bit of effort/arm-strength but I only get myself into that position moments before I call my launch

- But then be sure to push back before you start rolling or you'll stay on the cart too long. And if you make a habit of doing that you're gonna miss a lot of really awesome thermals you'd have otherwise been able to exploit.

- WHY? 'Cause pulling in after the cart has started rolling or after the wing has rotated and trimmed is beyond your range of capabilities? Your reflexes aren't fast enough?

Mark Dowsett

Was this that first attempt of ATing without your fin? Back in January?

Oh, not used to towing without a fin. That would explain everything.

Rob Skinner

2nd ... First time Willie handed me the rope.

Good ol' Willie. Always nice to have some asshole flying another plane 250 feet in front of you watching your reflection in a convex mirror making your critical flight decisions for you. Did you remember to thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even though you felt you could have ridden it out, to give him a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety? That's what the pros do. This is a u$hPa certified PRO TIP. And I don't hear you gushing with gratitude at this opportunity. Pretty shabby treatment for somebody to whom you obviously owe your life.

I'm flying with a fin every time now.

Sorry, I missed the part in which you explained how and why you were so critically and dangerously out of control that your idiot driver found it necessary to abort the tow.

Do you think the fin would have made it recover faster ?

- I dunno... Were you having some yaw instability issues that I missed while harvesting the fifteen stills between you still riding the cart and the point at which you started to breathe again? Can you point me to the part of the clip at which you weren't pointing to the tug reasonably well?

- Sure. What the conventional fixed wing aircraft people refer to as a vertical STABILIZER is ALWAYS gonna be useful in quickly executing heading changes.

It's (more) Cloud 9 snake oil, Rob. All it does is keep you going more steadily in whatever direction you happen to be going at the moment. It works great when you're pointed straight at the tug in smooth air with everything going great. In the REAL world though... Not so much.

Mark Dowsett

Hard to say 'everytime' (forever). Just maybe not your forst AT of the season!
The fun wont help you recover necessarily....but likely keeping it from getting out of hand.

Well stated, Mark. Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt couldn't have put it much better.

Dave McGrath

Big fan of cliff launches for this and other reasons

Ditto for Bill Priday, Craig Pirazzi, Karen Carra. Really hard to fuck up anything associated with a cliff launch. 'Specially in good soaring conditions.

Rob Skinner

Ahmen ...

Yeah Rob. Stick with cliff launches. You'll be fine. Just make sure to apply what Malcolm taught you about dolly launches to that other environment.

Les Tapol
I think the week link should have made that decision for you...

Really hard to beat the critical pilot decision making capabilities of a piece of precision fishing line. In decades worth of u$hPa / Flight Park Mafia aerotowing never once has one failed to fulfill its purpose of increasing the safety of the towing operation. Just comb through the crash reports if you don't believe me.

And I hear that the few people who are actually working on things are trying to develop a month link which will work four times as well. But unfortunately the rantings of the fanatic fringe are masking their efforts. And that saddens Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney. It's actually saddened him to the extent that we no longer benefit from his keen intellect in these discussions. Maybe we should get together, let him know how precipitously aerotowing is going down the tubes in the absence of his keen intellect, persuade him to rejoin some of these discussions, get some of us muppets properly straightened out in the areas where our shoddy regular Flight Park Mafia training programs have failed so miserably.

What week link did you use?

The five day work week link or the full seven day job?

Rob Skinner

130# on primary and secondary

Pay dirt. Disappointing that this crap is still in circulation but we now have:

- almost the last chunk of the picture (we still need his flying weight) - and it's fuckin' HUGE

- solid documentation of just how effective the most insanely (and probably illegally) understrength weak link in the world history of aerotowing - sailplane and hang glider - is in keeping the glider from getting into too much trouble

Just based on the photos I suspected it was 130 cause it's invisible - but I wasn't sure 'cause he (has still) said NOTHING about the terror he should've felt with respect to its likelihood of increasing the safety of the towing operation.

Mark Dowsett

A broken weak link at that point would have got you in worse trouble. You would have piled in for certain.

Read DIED.

Never count on your weak link to release you. That isnt what it is for

- What IS it for, Mark? Sounds like you're getting DANGEROUSLY close to the...

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:15:12 UTC

Oh, in case it's not obvious (which it doesn't seem to be), once someone starts telling me what the "sole" purpose of a weaklink is, I tune them out as they have no clue what they're talking about.

Weaklinks are there to improve the safety of the towing operation, as I've stated before.

Any time someone starts in on this "sole purpose" bullshit, it's cuz they're arguing for stronger weaklinks cuz they're breaking them and are irritated by the inconvenience. I've heard it a million times and it's a load of shit. After they've formed their opinion, then they go in search of arguments that support their opinion.

..."sole purpose" douchebag camp. C'mon Mark, tell us what it's for and what we should be using for it to best effect its purpose. Too much of a fuckin' coward to finish the thought?

- Oh. So everybody with a quarter of a brain or better in this discussion, particularly the actual guy whose actual ass was on the actual line, is in total agreement that he'd have been fuckin' DEAD if he'd abruptly lost thrust at any point in the critical two seconds of this launch. His life is literally hanging by a thread - same as it would be if he were suspended from a bridge two hundred feet over a rocky gorge by some chintzy crap one mild jounce away from vaporizing.

He's just told you that he was on this same insane chintzy crap that's been documented by Davis Dead-On Straub as vaporizing six times in a row on comp pilots in light morning conditions and killed a tandem aerotow instructor a bit over five years prior less than 22 miles up the road from this chickenshit operation at Wallaby.

And you're OK with the 130. Not gonna tell him in no uncertain terms to switch yesterday to what this little girl:

02-00820c
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is currently using at Quest. Suck my dick, Mark.

Mason Masin

Lucky guy, very lucky eh Graziano Mele

Anybody think of anything we could do to make this guy even more lucky?

Graziano Mele

..Lucky.....it can happen in a blink of an eye....yes, Mason Masin .

Really Graz? So what would you recommend as the focal point of his safe towing system for this:

10-03323
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asshole? Something to very clearly provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns, and the like for that form of towing?

Willie Van Caulart

The aforementioned rope-handing Willie. He qualified as a tug pilot a bit under two years ago so obviously knows infinitely more than any hang glider pilot could ever hope to. Flies outta Teviotdale, Ontario - in the stench of the Mike Robertson sphere of influence.

I set my vg to 1/4 plus a half.

So three quarters then, right? Or do we actually mean three eighths but find that level of math a bit too challenging?

I'll gladly give you the rope if you find yourself doing something like this again.

I'll gladly put a bullet in the back of your head if I survive you making a good decision in the interest of my safety in a situation remotely similar to that one - motherfucker.

Nick Jones

I pull in to shoulder level, then keep the bar there - i don't think much about restance or pull force required. I'm sure there are other opinions...

It's hang gliding. What do we have going for us besides...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.

It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

Nobody's talking about 130lb weaklinks? (oh please)
Many reasons.
Couple of 'em for ya... they're manufactured, cheap and identifiable.

See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.

So please, find me something... that you didn't make... that I can go out and buy from a store... that's rated and quality controlled... that fits your desire for a "non one size fits all" model, and *maybe* we can talk.
But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

"light" weaklink issues?
"I had to land"... boo hoo.
Oh, I thought of an other one... I smashed into the earth after my weaklink let go cuz I fly as badly as I tow, and I'm only still here cuz my weaklink didn't let me pile in harder.

Your anecdotal opinion is supposed to sway me?
You forget, every tow flight you take requires a tug pilot... we see EVERY tow.
We know who the rockstars are and who the muppets are.
Do you have any idea how few of us there are?
You think we don't talk?
I'll take our opinion over yours any day of the week.

...other opinions?

Willie Van Caulart

The only thing I would add to this is get off the cart...

Exactly as you were instructed by Malcolm - 'cause he hasn't commented otherwise.

...and get out of the propwash as soon as you can.

Try sticking to the script, dickhead. This one was obviously precipitated by a THERMAL.

Let the tug take off and then maintain your height behind him above the propwash.

Somebody show me a video of a glider being the slightest bit wiggled by propwash.

Willie Van Caulart

The only thing I would add to this is get off the cart and get out of the propwash as soon as you can.

Yeah Rob. The sooner you get off the cart the sooner you can get out of the propwash - which we've now decided was what blew you out of control.

Let the tug take off and then maintain your height behind him above the propwash.

If you're level with the tug you're out of the deadly propwash.

Watch the Launch 3 at 0:33.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6qZPldd0RM


Takes the cart ten feet in the air with him. Remember when we were ALL told to do this 'cause we muppets were all too fuckin' stupid to be able to figure out any other way whether or not we had safe airspeed.

Then Malcolm figured out that this was making his job harder so he told us to lock the bar forward a fair bit to keep from staying on the cart too long. So now nobody's ever again allowed to say:

Tormod Helgesen

"Don't pull in or you stay on the cart to long" WTF! Does this operation TRY to kill People?

Nobody at least on this side of the Atlantic who has and wants to maintain a snowball's chance in hell of ever flying Wallaby. We're seeing another example of...

<BS> - 2018/05/20 18:36:43 UTC

I want to credit Robert for creating this video. He did highlight the instruction that precipitated the event. He's careful not to disparage the source, but it seems to me he's trying to reconcile getting deadly/shit advice from someone who has much more experience and in this case likely the ability to limit his flying and/or the comity in which it takes place.

...textbook lowest common denominator devolution creep.

Bob Kuczewski - 2017/08/06 04:36:50 UTC

We need to consider getting an injunction against this guy communicating with the FAA on this subject.

I forwarded the letter to Tim Herr yesterday asking about this.

Perhaps a strongly worded letter from Tim will do the trick. We can't force Tad to work within the USHPA framework but we can make it unpleasant and expensive for him if he chooses to makes derogatory and false statements about USHPA to the FAA he can't back up.

If I understand the previous comments, his sending USHPA a draft letter is an indication of willingness to engage in some dialogue before going to the FAA.

Good luck with this guy!

The pilot who I asked about towing was John Heiney and he definately knows towing.

The only way it's possible for this flavor of aviation to evolve is BACKWARDS. And the best that anyone can hope for is a longish period in which some idiot fucking flight park operator doesn't murder someone else on camera and make the lethal issue "typical", Standard Operating Procedure...

18-3003


"No, the problem was that he wasn't staying UPwind enough in the twenty cross."

P.S. Anybody besides Yours Truly think that this guy:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17092
Crash at Questair

Alfie Norks - 2010/06/03 12:24:40 UTC
Brazil

Speedy recovery to the pilot in question.
It could have been worse. It could have happened at...the other place (but nothing happens there. ) Good luck if it does. No 911 calls allowed. My friend was lucky, the nurse on hand convinced the owner not to move him, this after he snatched and threw her phone away. She was trying to dial 911. My friend suffered lower back injury.

was a previous victim of Malcolm's instructions to push back to keep from staying on the dolly too long? Anybody have anything better with which to explain this never explained crash?

[<BS>]

What week link did you use?

And here I was thinking the implication was it took too long to do its job. How 'bout a three day weekend or a weekday link?

So everybody with a quarter of a brain or better in this discussion, particularly the actual guy whose actual ass was on the actual line, is in total agreement that he'd have been fuckin' DEAD if he'd abruptly lost thrust at any point in the critical two seconds of this launch. His life is literally hanging by a thread - same as it would be if he were suspended from a bridge two hundred feet over a rocky gorge by some chintzy crap one mild jounce away from vaporizing.

Have to admit, after you pointed out Rob was using one of Joe Street's releases, I assumed he had a stronger weak link. Amazing, maybe it's the old "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[Tad Eareckson]

- Yes. One would think.

- Got him.

From:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc2ho__GoxE


we can verify that the glider he took for the Scary Ride was a Wills Wing product. And from:

http://airtribune.com/2018-green-swamp-sport-klassic/results/task3117/comp/sport-class
Task 4 - 58.1 km - Elapsed time | Competition results | 2018 Green Swamp Sport Klassic | Airtribune

Robert Skinner - Wills Wing U2 160

Max Certified Operating Weight:
68+260=328
80 percent minimum two point bridle end weak link:
328*0.8=262.4/2=131.2*1.15=
151 pounds

He was flying at

130/1.15=113*2=226/328=
61 percent of min and 30.5 percent of max legal

Robert Skinner

I don't have my head around the logic either, but I'm sure there's a good reason. He's got more AT experience than anyone else I know.
...
Pretty sure the only thing that saved me was the tug.

But you've got your head wrapped REALLY well around the logic of the Standard Aerotow Weak Link and the reason is blindingly obvious. We all play by the same rules or we don't play.

It would be nice to have his hook-in weight but the minimum for that glider is 160.

68+160=228
226/228=1G

And One G is the Donnell Hewett ideal Infallible Weak Link. But then it would be extremely odd that it didn't increase the safety of the towing operation well before he got into too much trouble.

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Aerotow FAQ

Weak Link

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.

IMPORTANT - It should never be assumed that the weak link will break in a lockout.
ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem.

17-1821
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/962/40373978690_9aef9ff7ca_o.png


Am I alone in thinking that the pressure of the towline has reached a level that's compromised the handling of the glider just a wee bit?

[<BS>]

Not alone...

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air.

...and by that reasoning Rob should consider a weaker weak link.
What a waste of a good release.

[Tad Eareckson]

Ya know... I was thinking about how we got from:

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

and:

Hang Gliding - 1975/09

The Tow Line
Harry Robb

Although some flyers use only the loop of the tow line in the safety release, this practice is not recommended as it greatly accelerates the abrasion and fraying of the line. Once the line shows very many single strand breaks, its tensile strength is greatly decreased and should be discarded. No flight should ever be made with a knot in the tow line. Aside from the abrasion caused by the knot rubbing on itself, the tensile strength is decreased by as much as 50%. Lines require constant inspection - prior to the first flight of every day by every flyer. In a tournament, the Lineman Starter can inspect some portions of the line on each flight, and the Safety Inspector will inspect the entire line slowly, foot-by-foot, two or three times daily. The tow line is a life line and must be treated with utmost respect.

to the point at which the Safety Inspectors at the most prestigious and highly respected facilities and comp venues on the planet will inspect the tow system to make sure its safety focal point will break six times in a row in light morning conditions and send:

- anyone found to be noncompliant to the back of the line

- those experiencing Standard Aerotow Weak Link successes/inconveniences prior to reaching fifteen feet off the deck to the front of the line for as many free relights as it takes to get them to potentially workable altitudes

And I was thinking "What if Donnell had devoted more of his time to his Lord, family, and career and had contented himself with a much less demanding hobby?" And as I thought about it I realized that IT WOULDN'T HAVE MATTERED IN THE LEAST.

Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

Skyting requires the use of an infallible weak link to place an absolute upper limit to the towline tension in the unlikely event that everything else fails.

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation," and that "More people have been injured because of a weak link than saved by one." Well, I for one have been saved by a weak link and would not even consider towing without one. I want to know without a doubt (1) when I am pushing too hard, and (2) what will break when I push too hard, and (3) that no other damage need result because I push too hard.

The "argument" that Doctor Donnell has heard and chooses to ignore:

- because it doesn't fit in with his schizophrenic rewriting of aeronautical theory

- same way he did when Yours Truly tried to get him to understand some of the carnage his Infallible Weak Link was wreaking in real world aerotowing

was based upon what people were seeing in real world hang glider frame towing in which assholes were ALREADY trying to get loops of infallible fishing line to function as emergency releases - Birrenators minus all of Peter's Rube Goldberg crap. Yeah, they were still towing off the frame. But in the scenario for which they were presenting their "argument" - one which was supported by no shortage of fatality reports whatsoever (although it was mostly the case back in the day that a defective towline was functioning as the appropriate weak link) - the issue of frame versus pilot connection is totally irrelevant. As long as you're pointed reasonably well at whatever's pulling you it doesn't matter to any extent worth mentioning what the lower connection is anchored to.

Also note, people of varying ages, that in the pre-Skyting era there were ZERO reports of rope failures or weak link successes working to anyone's advantage. Donnell had never heard the argument that "Weak links occasionally break at the best possible time, when the glider is turning hard in a near lockout situation," and that "More people have come out smelling like roses because of a weak link than injured or killed by one."

Well, I for one have been saved by a weak link...

Of course you have, Donnell. Funny that in the course of around four decades since we never had the faintest ghost of an accounting of this incident which would've ended your earthly existence minus this critically timed string pop. Also funny that never in the course of your Skyting Newsletter publication, appearances in u$hPa's magazine, activity on The Peter Show nobody ever asked you about it.

Nothing from your unidentified driver either. Go figure.

A weak link functioning to...

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.

...protect an HGMA certified aircraft against overloading doesn't break when the glider is...

10-03323
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2928/14397296584_1d0e5e389b_o.png


...climbing hard in a near stall situation. And the same mindset had at least started to sink in...

http://www.kitestrings.org/post118.html#p118

...on the other side of the Atlantic in the same timeframe. Before we'd started getting weak links up into the middle to top end of the sailplane legal range hang glider weak links were NEVER used in hang glider towing to protect our aircraft against overloading.

One rule of hang gliding you can totally take to the bank... Anything based on a foundation of incompetence, stupidity, insanity WILL rather quickly be embraced as Standard Operating Procedure.

Tad Eareckson - 2013/02/08 20:44:05 UTC

This is THE BEST opportunity we will have in our lifetimes to kill this 130 pound Greenspot "standard aerotow weak link" bullshit.

We had those motherfuckers BY THE BALLS. We were absolutely POSITIVE we'd finally seen the abrupt extinction of the Standard Aerotow Weak Link. The late Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney himself - in conjunction with the late Mark Knight himself - were (fake) testing heavier weak links and publishing (fake) results. Davis Dead-On Straub and many of us were now using and quite happy with 200 pound Tad-O-Links.

And I had predicted what WHEN something like this happened untold hundreds of reputations - like Dennis Pagen's - would totally and forever be down the toilet. (Pity we never got another "Higher Education" article from Dr. Trisa Tilletti following their fourteen page treatise on aerotowing weak links.)

Shit WAS happening. But it was just a bubble - a glitch in the steady devolution of the sport 'cause The Industry was caught off guard and had trouble remembering how to respond in accordance with Standard Operating Procedure.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7230
Towing question

Martin Henry - 2009/06/26 06:06:59 UTC

PS... you got to be careful mentioning weak link strengths around the forum, it can spark a civil war

Just DON'T MENTION weak link strengths - or tolerate the mentioning of weak link strengths by anyone. Fuck being careful about anything.

The 2013/02/02 Zack Marzec inconvenience fatality didn't really change anything. There'd been a low key throwing in of the towel...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).

...nearly two years prior to Zack Marzec. And there'd been Tad-O-Links in circulation years before that - but only by the best of the best, thems what had been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

Nothing's really changed as far as what's going on in the field. Some folk are using Tad-O-Links, probably most are still using Rooney Links. And as long as the use of ANY Rooney Links is acceptable, still considered part of the mainstream spectrum, we haven't accomplished much beyond hastening the onset of the mainstream ban on discussion of weak link strengths, purposes, our expectations of them.

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany. The normal procedure for a tow pilot, when the hang glider gets too high, is to release in order to avoid the forces from the glider pulling the tug nose-down into a dangerous dive. This dangerous dive is what happened when Chris Bulger (U.S. team pilot) was towing John Pendry (former world champion) years ago. The release failed to operate in this case, and Chris was fatally injured. However Neal kept me on line until I had enough ground clearance, and I believe he saved me from injury by doing so. I gave him a heart-felt thank you.

Blindingly conspicuous absence of any mention of the focal point of this asshole's safe towing system - which, according to the crap he'd written in his excellent book, would have already increased the safety of the towing operation long before the situation became that dire. Same thing, until pressed on this issue, with Rob Skinner - undoubtedly for similar reasons.

By the way, Donnell... How the fuck do you know without a doubt...

Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

Skyting requires the use of an infallible weak link to place an absolute upper limit to the towline tension in the unlikely event that everything else fails.

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation," and that "More people have been injured because of a weak link than saved by one." Well, I for one have been saved by a weak link and would not even consider towing without one. I want to know without a doubt (1) when I am pushing too hard, and (2) what will break when I push too hard, and (3) that no other damage need result because I push too hard.

...(1) when you're pushing too hard, and (2) what will break when you push too hard, and (3) that no other damage need result because you push too hard in FREE FLIGHT...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

See, in truck towing, a weaklink does next to nothing for you (unless the line snags).
This is because you're on a pressure regulated system... so the forces never get high enough to break the link.

This is not the case with an aerotow.
This is why the weaklink exists.

The forces of an aerotow can get high enough to tear the wings off the glider.
This is no exaggeration... it can be done.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 06:40:02 UTC

So... if it's *only* purpose is to prevent your glider from breaking apart... which is complete and utter bullshit... but if that was it's only purpose... why then do we have them at all?
Your glider will tear the rope apart before it breaks.
It will tear the towmast off the tug before it breaks.
Your glider is capable of amazing feats of strength... it is in no danger of folding up on you.

...which is the environment in which gliders are actually being broken out in the REAL WORLD.

HGMA certified gliders were all that people were buying and flying years before you wrote and submitted your articles. And you needed a piece of string in your system to make sure you didn't exceed six Gs positive on tow? But you were OK not doing anything totally insane once you'd cut loose?

Lemme tell ya what breaks when people push too hard out in the real world. If they haven't bothered to preflight their gliders because they don't wanna work harden their sidewires it's gonna be a sidewire. Otherwise they've gotta go into blown aerobatics and/or tumble mode in which case it's gonna be an outboard leading edge section or cross spar.

And you are NOT gonna be able to achieve any of that with a three G weak link on tow on a sound certified glider. And your limit for a properly designed weak link...

A properly designed weak link must be strong enough to permit a good rate of climb without breaking, and it must be weak enough to break before the glider gets out of control, stalls, or collapses. Since our glider flies level with a 50 pound pull, climbs at about 500 fpm with a 130 pound pull, and retains sufficient control to prevent stalling if a weak link breaks at 200 pounds pull, we selected that value. Of course, a pilot could deliberately produce a stalled break at 200 lbs, just as he can stall a glider in free flight. But if he is trying to limit his climb rate and the forces exceed the break limit, the glider simply drops its nose to the free flight attitude and continues flying. If the weak link breaks (or should the towline break) at less than the 200 pound value, the effect is even less dramatic and controlled flight is still present.

So I don't know why you're even bothering to talk about the consequences of pushing too hard on tow when your concept of a weak link is something that keeps you from getting into too much trouble. It's like talking about designing a tennis ball such that it won't crack the skull or break an arm of a player on the other side of the net - 'cept way more absurd.

And, by the way, you're the first and last individual in the history of this idiot sport who ever said anything about needing or wanting a weak link to ensure that he wasn't "pushing too hard". If you need a piece of string to tell you when you're pushing too hard - while being powered by a rope or an engine - how the fuck do you know when you're pushing too hard in free hang glider flight? How the fuck does one that clueless regarding basic hang glider piloting manage to get rated any better than a One - if that much?

Donnell permanently evaporates from the sport virtually immediately after the platform launch lockout death of his Reliable Release equipped student product Lemmy Lopez on 2010/10/13. Prior to that point there'd been a couple decades worth of Dragonfly / Standard Aerotow Weak Link aerotowing in which quite literally...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

Tommy.
First, I sent Steve a bunch of info offline. Hopefully it clears things up a bit for him.
Unfortunately, he's stumbled onto some of Tad's old rantings and got suckered in. So most of this was just the same old story of debunking Tad's lunacy... again .

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

...HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows had been launched with weak links mostly way the fuck under the one G Infallible Weak Link Donnell had assured us would keep us from getting into too much trouble. And the most casual assessment of what was actually going on was that they were no fuckin' way in hell doing what Donnell assured us they would.

So one tends to wonder why Donnell had so little interest in seeing how well the real world was lining up with the assumptions he essentially pulled outta his ass several years prior to the advent of practical aerotowing.