Re: Skyting demolition
Posted: 2019/09/25 20:13:11 UTC
So unfortunately I stumbled upon the Russian copy instead of stumbling upon the Davis Show material I'd previously known about to which the Russian forum led me back. So the sequence of analysis and dismemberment is a bit out of sequence but one does what one can.
This topic is a pivotal point in hang gliding devolution and I have its seven pages cleaned up and ready to post as another really embarrassing archive.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21649
Truck Towing Accident in South Texas
Remember this fishy smelling chunk from the previous post?:
- Thought you said:
- 1999/02/27 - Rob Richardson - Dewey, Arizona. There was an emergency release at the tug end of the towline, Corey Burk made a good decision in the interest of his safety, killed him and knocked his passenger unconscious. The only reason you want emergency releases at the winch end of the towline is 'cause you send students up with total crap for the primary releases at the back end of the towline.
- Failing to use a release that he could use to release from tow whenever he actually needed to. He used the crap on which you trained him and believed the crap you taught him.
- Nobody ever got a skinned knee from dragging a slack towline.
- How do you get hurt flying too high on a short towline?
- It's a fucking payout winch so you CAN'T fly too high on a short towline.
- When you're on a platform launch - which Lemmy should've been - you start out at a ZERO length towline and as you're doing your initial climbout your towline is pretty damn close to zero. So what's your problem with short payout towlines?
The quality of these two submissions tells us all we'll ever need to know about the quality of your instruction. Incompetent, illegitimate, can't be trusted an inch.
How well are your priorities riding this one out?
This topic is a pivotal point in hang gliding devolution and I have its seven pages cleaned up and ready to post as another really embarrassing archive.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21649
Truck Towing Accident in South Texas
Davis Straub - 2010/10/20 02:27:23 UTC
From: Lionel Hewett
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 2:02 PM
To: Davis Straub
Subject: RE: Truck towing accident?
Davis,
No, they did not simply hook the rope to the pickup. They were using a home built payout winch that I have never seen. And, I suspect that they tested its tension setting by pulling some line out immediately before foot-launching, because that is the procedure they had been practicing when using my equipment. But when one fails to release and overflies the payout winch, the normal towing tension is enough to force the glider into the ground, especially when the towline is routed over the control bar. I am confident that they were also using a weak link (because that was what they always trained on), but again a towline force sufficient to cause a tuck is not sufficient to break a weak link.
Clearly, Lemuel thought he understood the critical components of my towing system and tried to duplicate what he thought was important. He also thought he was competent to launch, climb out, release, and land because he had done so consistently numerous times. He simply forgot or ignored the dangers of (1) towing without an instructor present, (2) using an inexperienced crew, (3) not using an observer with the winch, (4) not using a reliable release at the pilot end of the towline, (5) using a pocket knife rather than a hook knife as an emergency pilot release, (6) not having an emergency release at the winch end of the towline, (7) failing to release from tow, (8) dragging a slack towline, (9) overflying the tow vehicle, and (10) flying too high on a short towline. These are mistakes that cost him his life. They are also mistakes well known to the towing community and must continue to be emphasized in every tow-training program. My mistake was failing to emphasize the danger of these mistakes sufficiently to prevent him from making them.
Donnell
Why Davis? Why does that serial killing motherfucker merit your direct correspondence? Why not post this on your own website or, failing that, to the forum as a Davis Show Member In Good Standing? Trying to maintain a little buffer zone?Davis,
Good thing. This one could've been really serious if they had.No, they did not simply hook the rope to the pickup.
Name some payout winches that AREN'T home built. You emphasize "home built" to help shade this guy as a fringer. Tell us one thing that was wrong with it.They were using a home built payout winch...
Please do tell us what was wrong with it when you see it. And make it good 'cause we've got mainstreamers doing fixed line surface tow. Not to mention the fact that ALL AT is fixed line....that I have never seen.
Why is he foot launching? He's got the "skill" to foot launch, fly upright on the control tubes, make the easy reach to his easily reachable actuator while flying the glider with the other hand, foot land... But not the skill to prone out and execute a coordinated turn or two?And, I suspect that they tested its tension setting by pulling some line out immediately before foot-launching...
They who? I think we just slipped up and revealed that wife Patricia G. Lopez was driving, knew something about towing gliders, maybe had taken lessons. In the previous post you identified her as an "inexperienced driver" which could easily cover the bottom third of the proficiency range. (If you wanna try make a case that there's all that fuckin' much proficiency involved in payout rig driving - which there isn't.) I think Lemmy was doing enough things right to not have put somebody totally green behind the wheel - which is what I'd been assuming all these years until just now. And there's not a snowball's chance in hell that if he HAD done that you wouldn't have pounced on it for every inch you could've gotten. The plot just majorly thinned....because that is the procedure they had been practicing when using my equipment.
...which, we'll soon find out, never came anywhere close to happening...But when one fails to release and overflies the payout winch...
Even though it wasn't routed over the control bar. There was no reason for it to have been and you never state that it was. But hey... Sure doesn't hurt to imply that it was....the normal towing tension is enough to force the glider into the ground, especially when the towline is routed over the control bar.
They were. Not he was.I am confident that they were...
Patricia was a student of his. Probably had lessons and experience comparable to his....also using a weak link (because that was what they always trained on)...
Remember this fishy smelling chunk from the previous post?:
That I commented on? There's TWO pilots involved in this one. One's flying, the other's driving. Which is exactly how you want things done.When the driver could no longer see the pilot in the rear view mirror, the driver stopped and may even have backed up somewhat before getting out of the pickup to watch the flight. The pilot apparently tried to release without success by cutting his weak link with a pocket knife. He continued to fly straight ahead with the towline draped over the control bar still attached to the pickup. When the towline tightened, the glider nosed down and the pilot crashed head first into the ground.
Well then how is it all that great in keeping you from getting into too much trouble? I'm thinking Tad-O-Link....but again a towline force sufficient to cause a tuck is not sufficient to break a weak link.
- Pity he didn't understand the critical components of a solid platform rig - like everybody up the road in Houston had been using since the beginning of time - and try to duplicate what he thought was important.Clearly, Lemuel thought he understood the critical components of my towing system and tried to duplicate what he thought was important.
- Thought you said:
Just how fucking well does he need to progress in ground school to understand the critical components of your towing system and duplicate what he thought was important? There's never been the slightest shred of evidence that there was the slightest relevant issue with his towing system or that he missed something you got right. Just this nonstop innuendo.He was also progressing well in ground school...
So then how wasn't he? 38 consecutive launches and you don't cite a single issue with any of them. I had my Two after five more. So was the problem with the student or with the instructor?He also thought he was competent to launch, climb out, release, and land because he had done so consistently numerous times.
I didn't need a fuckin' instructor present for that level of flying. After those 43 I WAS the fuckin' instructor. And I was a lot less full o' shit than a lot of my seniors were.He simply forgot or ignored the dangers of (1) towing without an instructor present...
Yeah? I missed the part where you told us what Patricia did wrong.(2) using an inexperienced crew
To try to compensate for that easily reachable and reliable placebo release you taught him to reliably release with.(3) not using an observer with the winch...
Totally with you there. But it was a duplicate of the crap you taught him would be just fine. I myself was fed that same bullshit on my first ever tow. 1980/11/14, Seahawk 180, frame-only connection, foot launch, smooth evening wind, probably 25, kited up to 500 feet. Tell me why you couldn't have had Lemmy doing something comparable.(4) not using a reliable release at the pilot end of the towline...
Bullshit on more levels than I care to go into - beyond the basic fact that he DIDN'T use a pocket knife rather than a hook knife as an emergency pilot release.(5) using a pocket knife rather than a hook knife as an emergency pilot release
- Yours being a spare student with a hook knife? You've already established that there was nobody on the winch so this sounds a little like piling on.(6) not having an emergency release at the winch end of the towline
- 1999/02/27 - Rob Richardson - Dewey, Arizona. There was an emergency release at the tug end of the towline, Corey Burk made a good decision in the interest of his safety, killed him and knocked his passenger unconscious. The only reason you want emergency releases at the winch end of the towline is 'cause you send students up with total crap for the primary releases at the back end of the towline.
- Why do you think? I'da thunk that would've been a pretty fundamental skill and you're gonna report that he was doing fine with it. Ya think it was just another example of a pilot's skills failing him when he most needed them not to?(7) failing to release from tow
- Failing to use a release that he could use to release from tow whenever he actually needed to. He used the crap on which you trained him and believed the crap you taught him.
- He didn't.(8) dragging a slack towline
- Nobody ever got a skinned knee from dragging a slack towline.
He didn't.(9) overflying the tow vehicle
- He didn't....and (10) flying too high on a short towline.
- How do you get hurt flying too high on a short towline?
- It's a fucking payout winch so you CAN'T fly too high on a short towline.
- When you're on a platform launch - which Lemmy should've been - you start out at a ZERO length towline and as you're doing your initial climbout your towline is pretty damn close to zero. So what's your problem with short payout towlines?
Great job, Donnell. There's so little valid and legitimate in your list it's not even worth reviewing to get an accuracy percentage.These are mistakes that cost him his life.
Fuck the towing community and the horse it rode in on. If it had anything in the way of legitimacy you'd have been immediately disemboweled for publishing crap like this.They are also mistakes well known to the towing community...
Not yours though. I think yours has just totally and permanently crashed and burned....and must continue to be emphasized in every tow-training program.
Your mistake? Where to even begin?My mistake was failing to emphasize the danger of these mistakes sufficiently to prevent him from making them.
The quality of these two submissions tells us all we'll ever need to know about the quality of your instruction. Incompetent, illegitimate, can't be trusted an inch.
How well are your priorities riding this one out?