wires

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33322
Broken side wire . . .

Red Howard - 2015/08/26 19:59:05 UTC

Campers,

It's been a while, and nobody was hurt, but one day a friend of mine broke a side wire in flight. The pilot (C.H.) took some time to deploy, but got a full canopy about 100 yards (meters) AGL. I dove after the busted glider, and cheered for that parachute, out loud. The twirling glider came down in scrub oak. When I got there, the pilot was smiling, and asked me "Red, did you come down to rescue me?" "Nah," I said, "I just came to help you carry the glider out of the trees."

So, I took the busted side wire to work, and used a low-power microscope to look at the ends of the broken wire. I wish I had photos, but our microscopes could not record pictures. Working from memory, the 49 steel strands showed some dull ends, meaning these strands were broken (and corroding) for some time. Some strands were bright silvery breaks, meaning they broke only the day before. Some strands had both bright and dull ends, so those strands were partially broken, but had not failed entirely, until everything failed. All seven center strands were broken, long before the wire failed. All of these strands broke just inside the end of the NICO sleeve, and no level of pre-flight inspection would have found them.

How 'bout a stomp test, asshole?

Knowing the guy who had sold that glider to my friend, just weeks before the wire failed, I believe the side wire had been kinked at the tang, resulting in a sharp bend where the cable exited the NICO. If the kinked cable is then straightened, the visible defect is gone, but the bending damage has doubled. The new owner had no chance, here.

Yeah he did. But he ELECTED not to take it because...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13864
My new wing

Red Howard - 2009/10/03 17:07:37 UTC

I don't care what anybody says, do NOT stomp on your wires, as a load test. If your foot hits the ground, then, you will grind your wires into the rocks. Bad plan, man.

...the risk of his foot hitting the ground and grinding the wire into the rocks was unacceptably high.

Faith in the previous owner's care was mis-placed, to say the least.

Yeah red, let's convict the guy on your say-so and speculation on what happened and how it happened.

Now I recommend getting new side wires, when buying any used glider.

Why? You get a commission on all replacement wires?

As best I remember things, I have re-created the pattern of broken and partly-broken steel strands, from the failed cable. The drawing is attached below.



I would like to hear from anybody who can inspect any broken cable ends in this manner, with at least a jeweler's loop or better magnification. Pix welcome here, of course.

Here ya go...



Asshole.

Good thing he was high enough to get his chute out and lucky enough not to have it eaten by his spinning glider, wasn't it red?

Fuck you. I don't assume wires that from ANY source, including me, that have been under ANYONE's control and care, including mine, are good to go.

I really hope that was a Wills Wing glider that asshole buddy of yours almost killed himself on. 'Cause if it was then the only reason he almost killed himself - and undoubtedly fucked up the airframe a good bit - was because he deliberately ignored the most important and critical procedure in the preflight checks specifications.

And fuck you for not having reported this incident until now and fuck him for not having reported it at all.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33322
Broken side wire . . .

Carl - 2015/08/26 21:37:27 UTC
New York State

Red,thanks!
I have learned and am learning so much about this sport from stumbling onto your tips pages and joining this site because you had made the suggestion.

Ain't he the best! Whenever you have a forum like The Jack Show in which everyone gets to weigh in on a subject the cream is just automatically gonna make it to the top and layer it for the benefit of all.

This being my first post,I am happy it is safety related.

Yours or his? Not really all that impressed by either.

And saddened greatly at this tragedy.

What tragedy? The guy got his chute open and walked away smiling.

I am eager to be a HG pilot and as it is on the job ,Safety First!

If you wanna be a hang glider pilot you're making a really crappy start of it. Try reading your goddam Falcon manual and doing the stuff that makes actual sense.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33322
Broken side wire . . .

Robert Kesselring - 2015/08/26 22:37:18 UTC

I've also been thinking about the issue of wire integrity, but more from the standpoint of corrosion protection. Kinking may be a serious issue, but I don't really see that there's anything that can be done about it other then careful handling of the wires and replacing of suspect wires.

And for the love o' God don't EVER consider running a stomp test.

Corrosion though, it seem like we should be able to do something about.

The Jack Show Genius Squad to the rescue! We shall put our minds together and forever end this deadly plague of corrosion induced sidewire failures that's been decimating our ranks ever since hang gliders first started flying higher than people were willing to fall!

I remember hearing (from an admittedly questionable source)...

Run it by Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney or Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight to get the straight dope.

...that the navy used something to protect their cables from corrosion that would penetrate between the strands as a very thin liquid, like WD-40, and then harden into a waxy substance that would coat the strands and prevent air/water/salt contact. In addition, it was purported that waxy substance lubricated the strands and prevented strand-to-strand wear as the cable was flexed.

I like it! We could probably also use it on our backup loops to reduce their failure rates.

I'd be interested if there's anyone here who perhaps was in the navy or could otherwise confirm the existence of this product, and if so, I'd be interested in a discussion about its usefulness for our cables.

I'll bet we could use it on our weak links in order to get them to break more consistently and in accordance with our expectations.

Paul Hurless - 2015/08/26 23:24:50 UTC

Unless you want a very stained sail you don't want to use any of the corrosion preventative sprays the Navy uses. The best thing to do, and this is one of the things the Navy recommends, is clean with running, fresh water. It flushes out the contaminants which cause the corrosion and then be sure to let everything dry before you pack it up.

Robert Kesselring - 2015/08/27 00:12:20 UTC

I have no idea how long it would take water to evaporate out of their center of a cable. I'm sure there outside will be dry long before the center, but how long, I've no clue. Hours? Days?

YEARS, Robert. This is why you should never go out on a weekend when there's the slightest chance of rain or leave your glider set up overnight at a tie-down and subject to morning dew.

And ferchrisake NEVER go out on a sailboat with stainless steel cables - especially in brackish or salt water.

mrcc - 2015/08/27 00:20:16 UTC
Auckland

Good advice.

where in doubt REPLACE

Goddam right! Every twenty-five hours or three months, whichever comes first - just to be extra sure.

And IMMEDIATELY after a stomp test. Cut those suckers up into foot long sections and hammer them flat to make sure they never get back into circulation.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33308
Funston Accident

Steve Baran - 2015/08/26 18:57:00 UTC

If anyone ends up doing a study on the degree of strength/damage/etc. of wires I'd send in some older side wires.

Thank you, Steve. It's only due to contributions like yours that stainless steel cable technology is able to inch forward in it's drive to advance us out of our Dark Age.

It would be very interesting to learn just how good/bad cables are in various gliders, environments, etc. I'd also be happy to donate some $ along with the cables to help pay for testing.

Try this, idiot. Find a record of a stomp tester ever having a failure any place other than the setup area. When you can't then find something REAL to worry about.

NMERider - 2015/08/26 19:12:26 UTC

Here's a great place to start from the Aussie DoD:
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a043347.pdf
Although it covers only 7x7 and 7x19 aircraft control cables, the issues are probably all the same although the bend radii would be wider for 1x19 cable.

Also read the Carl Stahl document:
http://www.savacable.com/sava_cat.pdf
This talks about fatigue and has fatigue life charts. There is much more out there to research on existing tests and data. I see no reason to re-invent the wheel.

Why not? We did for landing and pretty much all aspects of towing. We could do a comparable job fucking up stainless steel cable if we put tug pilots in charge for a weekend or two.

This document talks about abuse and has illustrations:
http://www.hanessupply.com/content/pdfs/wirerope101.pdf

Got that, Chattaroy? If you're gonna abuse your cables you wanna do it right.

Here's some more just to put the fear of God on more pilots:
http://www.ascindustries.com/portals/0/pdf/WireRopeConstructions.PDF

Nah, God's about the only thing these assholes have going for them when they take to the air and after they fuck up.

Steve Baran - 2015/08/26 19:24:12 UTC

I see no reason to re-invent the wheel.

Good point.

Oh. You actually ARE capable of some primitive level of thought. Any comment on the Wills Wing preflight procedure?

Eric Beckman - 2015/08/26 23:13:50 UTC

Thanks for sharing the info, JD. Let's hope it helps in some way to keep more of these from happening.

How? This guy had an issue with a wire that PROBABLY could've been picked up on visually and DEFINITELY could've been - and eventually WAS - picked up by a load test. He elected to NEVER do one before launch and ALWAYS do when during or just after launch. What is it that all this technical info is gonna do for us?

And how many of you total fucking assholes could tell us the breaking strength of a fresh standard aerotow weak link and just what that IGFA plus or minus one percent precision was supposed to be doing for us? How much deader did Rafael Lavin get killed as a consequence of his sidewire failing than Zack Marzec did as a consequence of his fishing line working?

It ain't rocket science to maintain a cable that WON'T blow before a leading edge does and a weak link that WILL blow a fair bit before a leading edge but NEVER when the glider is under control. Why don't you assholes see if you can get that much right before gearing up for wheel reinvention?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43820
Break Down Care

Janica Lee - 2015/08/27 10:49:36 UTC

Please make sure your side wires have just enough play at the base bar brackets so when you pack your wing away the tang/wires can rotate with the downtubes.

If the side wire connection at the corner bracket is too tight, the tang cannot rotate with the downtube, resulting in the danger of repeatedly kinking/unkinking your side wire at the tang each time the wing is packed up and set up.

Check your side wire connections today.
Even side wires like to play a bit

And that way you will never EVER have a reason to perform the deadly preflight stomp test specified in all the Wills Wing manuals.

Read more:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33322
Broken side wire . . .

...for the post I made three minutes and four seconds ago from which I copied and pasted this one...

2015/08/27 10:46:32 UTC
Break Down Care

...plus a substantial load o' additional crap on why you campers should replace your sidewires every six months so you never hafta perform the deadly preflight stomp test specified in all the Wills Wing manuals.

Carl - 2015/08/27 10:28:20 UTC

From working in the trades,I know that larger wire rope is designed to hold a lubricant in the core which is made of a non metallic strand,protection from inside out.

Great, Carl. So now you can replace your wires with larger wire rope designed to hold a lubricant in the core which is made of a non metallic strand,protection from inside out so you never hafta perform the deadly preflight stomp test specified in all the Wills Wing manuals.

Gawd how I hate these shitheads. This is why I don't get too bent outta shape when a Rafi Lavin buys it. If we could resurrect him and get him to actually participate in a wires discussion we'd be hearing exactly the same crap and we wouldn't ever be able to get him to do a single stomp test with a fuckin' gun to his fuckin' head.

And thanks bigtime, Wills Wing, for making sure your fuckin' douchebag dealers demonstrate this procedure and brutally insist upon compliance to the point of refusing sales and for speaking up in these discussions, putting out advisories on your website, and publishing a really good article or two in the magazine.

FUCK the excellent article by Mike Meier, "Why Can't We Get a Handle On This Safety Thing?" We Can't We Get a Handle On This Safety Thing 'cause we've handed control of the sport over to a cartel of low double digit IQ total assholes and given them free rein.

P.S. Anybody else wonder how many hours Rafi spent hooking his backup loop, locking his carabiner, doing hang checks, perfecting his flare timing, learning to nail his spots?

[<BS>]

And thanks bigtime, Wills Wing, for making sure your fuckin' douchebag dealers demonstrate this procedure and brutally insist upon compliance to the point of refusing sales and for speaking up in these discussions, putting out advisories on your website, and publishing a really good article or two in the magazine.

And for making a setup and preflight video.

[Tad Eareckson]

Yeah.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33322
Broken side wire . . .

Brian Scharp - 2015/08/27 20:27:23 UTC

Red Howard - 2015/08/26 19:59:05 UTC

If the kinked cable is then straightened, the visible defect is gone, but the bending damage has doubled. The new owner had no chance, here.

He could have done this.

No he couldn't. red won't permit him to. That's just in the owner's manual and anything red says supersedes what the people who designed and certified the glider say.

Faith in the previous owner's care was mis-placed, to say the least. Now I recommend getting new side wires, when buying any used glider.

Faith in a set of wires just because they're new could also prove to be misplaced.

And...

http://willswing.com/wp-content/uploads/tech_bulletins/TB19940802A.pdf

Wills Wing Technical Bulletin
TB19940802 - 1994/08/17
Cable Maintenance

We have seen fatal accidents caused by improperly made cables that appeared to be perfectly OK on visual inspection, but failed in flight at a load much below the intended design strength of the cable.

HAS BEEN. But just keep doing whatever the fuck Red tells ya to 'cause he's appointed himself the world's greatest authority on all things hang gliding.

[<BS>]

I didn't say anything before, but this left wire has seen better days. It probably still has lots of life left. Are those his footprints?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJLG3oUbkEg

[Tad Eareckson]

Yeah, right at the beginning of the video before launch when things were slack. Hadn't noticed before. (Camera angle really brings it out.)

I'd say it's not problematic - and I know how to find out it if is prior to launch. Might be tempted to replace it though.

No, those aren't footprints. You couldn't do that with stomp tests with a gun to your head. Like Jonathan said, and has just illustrated, the bend radius is majorly insignificant - 'specially when you consider what you do every time you put it in the bag.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33322
Broken side wire . . .

Carl - 2015/08/27 23:38:01 UTC

Would dipping the cable end (eye loop and fitting) in liquefied paraffin be sufficient to repel contamination,it would penetrate and coat without staining and not overheat

Carl... Where we really need your help on this is figuring out the best way to ATTRACT contamination. Only then will we be able to start field testing your strategies for repelling it.

It may flake when very cold weather exists.

Speaking of flakes...

Just a thought.

Keep 'em coming. We'll be due for another corrosion related sidewire death next month and that starts four days from now.

Paul Hurless - 2015/08/27 23:46:55 UTC

Any sticky substance like paraffin would attract and hold contaminants in close contact with the wire.

Reminds me a lot of The Jack Show itself.

Red Howard - 2015/08/28 02:29:54 UTC

Campers,

I would agree, on paraffin wax being too oily/sticky for this use. However, there are extremely hard automotive waxes that would penetrate cable ends well, if the wax was heated to a watery liquid state. A hair dryer could heat the cable end itself safely, before the cable ends get dunked. The synthetic waxes are usually non-acidic, but I would consult with the manufacturers about acid issues, before choosing a specific product. Wiping off any excess wax with tissue would finish the job, leaving the cable ends rather well sealed. The alternative is to do nothing. I believe that usually, any action is better than no action...

Unless, of course, that action is the one that's been specified in the owner's manual of every glider produced, certified, and sold by the largest manufacturer on the planet and has been used one hundred percent effectively and unproblematically by the half dozen flyers in this sport with functional brains since the beginning of fucking time. Then avoid like the plague - 'specially during the six week period subsequent to the last asshole killing himself by performing the load test just after launch.

...so this approach seems to be a good idea.

Suck my dick, Red.

Moisture is usually the key to corrosion;

Yeah, just look at what happens to all the sailboats docked in the Bay Area if you don't believe me.

a wax barrier should prevent corrosion very well, for cable ends.

Maybe even as well as doing nothing - asshole.

NMERider - 2015/08/28 07:22:28 UTC

Here is the side-wire step-on test conducted Thursday afternoon on my T2C 144.

Doing exactly what it says in the owner's manual? What an asshole.

I use plenty of force.

Brilliant idea. Did you ever consider what might happen if you broke something?

Notice how far the leading edge is bowed up during the step.

Yeah. More distortion than you'd ever be able to achieve in flight without blowing an aerobatics move - and it springs back just fine and there's no distortion in the thimbles.

Notice also how badly the 1x19 side-wire isn't kinked immediately after removing my foot.

- Yeah, well how do ya know it's not getting work hardened?
- Have you dipped those things in paraffin to keep them from corroding? If you do that you can skip the stomp tests.





That wasn't a real stomp test. To do it right you've gotta find a big sharp rock, place the middle of your wire right over it, and really grind your wire into its cutting edge. Otherwise you won't know how your wire will hold up if you encounter a large sharp rock a hundred feet over launch. All you've got there is a thin smattering of harmless little round pebbles - if you'd bother just to move five feet forward you'd have a lot better smattering. And you're not even making a halfway serious effort to grind your wire into what you DO have.

Thanks Jonathan. Stuff like that might make an actual difference. Needlessly killing a guy Sunday doesn't seem to have made the slightest dent.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13864
My new wing

Red Howard - 2009/10/03 17:07:37 UTC

I don't care what anybody says, do NOT stomp on your wires, as a load test. If your foot hits the ground, then, you will grind your wires into the rocks. Bad plan, man.

Go ahead, motherfucker. SAY SOMETHING.

2015/08/28 09:06:37 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jan

Do another film for us. A popped wire can kill us just as dead as a dangling carabiner.