wires

[miguel]

A very simple unambiguous statement.

I disagree. What is 'it'? The first thing in this thread is an excerpt from a Wills manual. This thread is about their described load test technique. And once you define 'it', what is the 'proper way' to do it? Thanks.

Zack

I really do not see the point in parsing sentences and arguing semantics. It is a waste of time as I will not change your mind. Got to go and run some arpeggios.

[Steve Davy]

Wills recommends 75lbs. That's a lot of force on the thin wall leading edge spars. In order to avoid a point load I use both hands separated by about 18 inches. If there is a coat, T-shirt or anything padded handy I'll use that to help spread the load to my leading edge.

[Zack C]

I really do not see the point in parsing sentences and arguing semantics.

I'm not trying to argue semantics...I'm just trying to determine what you're talking about, as I seriously have no idea.

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

Do you have a crystal ball?

When one hundred percent of the time 99 percent of glider divers fail to adhere to critical written and/or obvious common sense procedures you don't need a crystal ball - just a little patience.

I think Red's advice is spot on.

Red deserves to be stood up against a wall. Or, failing that, a rating suspension.

Indiscriminately stomping on a wire in the dirt or on rocks has the potential to damage the wire.

So does smacking an inboard leading edge section with a hammer to check for weak spots. How does either of those procedures even remotely relate to the discussion?

It would prudent to learn the proper way to do it first.

- Anybody too fucking stupid to follow - without benefit of a USHGA instructor's guidance - any and all of the preflight procedures described in any Wills Wing owner's manual - from a Falcon 3 to a T2 - has no goddam business within 75 yards of a setup area, launch, LZ, or breakdown area.

- The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.:

Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
06. Beginner Hang Gliding Rating (H-1)
-B. Beginner Rating - Required Witnessed Tasks

01. Set up and preflight of glider and harness, to include familiarity with owner's manual(s).

- This is - yet again - ten year old kid common sense stuff.

We don't have any big sharp rocks at Funston so I have to bring my own. Once I have the big and very sharp rocks in place I proceed to grind my flying wires into them using a jumping and twisting motion. Should I not do this?

CEASE AND DESIST *IMMEDIATELY*!!! You're confusing the trailing edge abrasion resistance test with the sidewire load capacity test.

Wills Wing's manuals explicitly state to push up on the leading edge when doing the test. Doing so keeps your foot and the wires well above the ground. I do this test with every preflight and my wires have never touched the ground in the process.

You don't understand. The problems associated with the sidewire load test are similar to the problems associated with the lift and tug hook-in check. They only manifest themselves with people who never even consider doing them.

I never asked him but I would place the odds at 99.99:1 that he's never done this.

I think he's about 0.01 percent low on his estimate.

There is nothing in the statement or implied by the statement relating to Wills's or any of the other maker's procedures.

I don't give a rat's ass what anybody else's owner's manuals say or don't. If you're not doing this test as part of your preflight you're not a responsible pilot. Step and push for the glider is the lift and tug for its pilot. Step and push assures that the glider won't disintegrate in the air to nearly the same extent that lift and tug assures that the pilot won't disintegrate on the rocks below the ramp.

If you do NOTHING ELSE before running off the ramp step and push and lift and tug. And I would prioritize those even over learning to fly. And I'm totally serious on those points.

And, of course, what are the two pre-launch procedures least likely to be taught or practiced?

And once you define 'it', what is the 'proper way' to do it?

I'm guessing not indiscriminately stomping on a wire in the dirt or on rocks. I'm guessing that the reason that Wills Wing doesn't talk about IMPROPER ways to do sidewire load tests is because they are unable to envision anyone stupid enough to do an improper sidewire load test isn't doing the gene pool a whole lot of good anyway. I'm guessing this is also why they don't have any cautions about launching with the pointy end aft. I'm guessing that the reason that Wills Wing doesn't talk about IMPROPER ways to do sidewire load tests is the same reason I don't show people how to engage a barrel release in order to get it to lock onto a weak link.

That's a lot of force on the thin wall leading edge spars...

I don't think you could hurt that tubing in the course of a load test with a gun to your head. In the fall of '89 I straightened a Comet outboard leading edge spar by padding it and levering it between a couple of closely spaced tree trunks. That's when I lost virtually all fear of an in flight structural failure precipitated by any tubing other than a straightened downtube. The required torque was un freaking believable. Granted, it was 6061 versus 7075 but still...

...I'm just trying to determine what you're talking about, as I seriously have no idea.

I could do with a bit of clarification myself.

P.S. Sorry to have just messed up our total posts count (1234).

[miguel]

Tad's good friend Jim G. says:

Why is it that only a handful of pilots not quoting from a service manual about what "may" reveal a problem during a "rough field test" is such a surprise?

Can you tell when you are creating 75 pounds of pressure with your foot on a flying wire? What if one over stresses the wire, by applying too much pressure during preflight? I think one is better off with the visual inspection for kinks, proper packing and storage and changing out wires routinely. Risk management Rodent. Now that's incredible.

makes sense to me.

another glider manufacturer told me much the same thing. No, I will not name the person.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26364
Preflight

Steve Davy - 2012/01/18 09:18:17 UTC

Wills Wing

Sport 2 135, 155 and 175
Owner / Service Manual

Preflight Procedure

While pushing up on the leading edge between the nose and the crossbar junction, step on the bottom side wire with about 75 pounds of force. This is a rough field test of the structural security of the side wire loop, the control bar and the crossbar, and may reveal a major structural defect that could cause an in-flight failure in normal operation.

Steve Davy - 2012/01/18 09:24:25 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=24544
Another 2mm Racing Wire Failure & Crash

And no one is saying anything about doing a preflight load test. Incredible !

Jim Gaar - 2012/01/18 15:52:19 UTC

It's mostly legalise...

Yeah, they just do that to cover their asses - so they won't get sued like all the other manufacturers who DON'T include that procedure in their manuals do whenever someone blows up a glider doing aerobatics or has one fall apart flying with a damaged wire.

And it's not like Rob Kells ever once did that himself when he was sales repping around the country and setting up gliders himself.

There you go being incredible again.

There you go being a total asshole - still.

Why is it that only a handful of pilots not quoting from a service manual about what "may" reveal a problem during a "rough field test" is such a surprise?

Yeah, likewise you should skip hook-in checks because they won't tell you if you've only partially engaged the webbing with your carabiner or a fair percentage of your hang strap is now part of a mouse nest in the garage.

Might as well skip the visual inspection of the wires too because you can't see through the nico to detect the kind of problem which often results in a failure.

Can you tell when you are creating 75 pounds of pressure with your foot on a flying wire?

Yeah douchebag, that's why it says "ABOUT".

What if one over stresses the wire, by applying too much pressure during preflight?

- He should probably pee in a Dixie cup and get his steroid levels checked. 'Cause when I pushed a measured 75 pounds on one of my HPAT 158 wires I got 116 pounds of tension. And the rated strength is about a thousand. And to get to HALF that rated strength he'd hafta push 323 pounds. And if you're both strong enough to get that high and too fucking stupid to stay within that range you probably shouldn't be flying hang gliders anyway. You should be flying tugs.

- What if you took a glider that's really never intended to be loaded beyond two or three Gs and went up to the six that it takes in certification? Maybe you should replace all the sidewires - even though none of the thimbles are distorted - because they MIGHT be overstressed. Even though good wires aren't the things that go first in blown aerobatics. It's leading edges and cross spars that blow.

I think...

Bullshit. You've never thought once in your entire useless life and you aren't about to start anytime soon.

...one is better off with the visual inspection for kinks, proper packing and storage and changing out wires routinely. Risk management Rodent. Now that's incredible.

Right. And you should always ASSUME that if you've visually inspection for kinks, properly packed and stored your glider, and changed the wires out routinely then, hell...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJV_t4L92pE


You're good to go!!!

Hey Jim, you claim to be able to THINK. Try this...

Think about whether we're getting more reports of people overstressing their wires following Wills Wing preflight procedures or gliders falling out of the sky because their sidewires failed.

Think about whether pilots should listen to people like Steve Pearson, Mike Meier, and Rob Kells or some brain damaged asshole like you, Rooney, or Davis.

P.S. Got in ahead of me, miguel. I'll get back to you.

[Tad Eareckson]

makes sense to me.

Do yourself a HUGE favor. Whenever Jim Gaar starts making sense to you sit down, dial 911, don't move, let the first responders get you safely strapped up, and take whatever the doctors recommend at the proper dose and on schedule.

another glider manufacturer told me much the same thing.

Yeah, so? I'm afraid I'm not much more impressed by the people who make these things than I am by the ones who fly them.

Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC

I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).

This is what the people at Wills Wing *SAY* in Zack's Sport 2 manual:

Before launching, hook in to the glider and do a careful hang check.

This is what the people at Wills Wing *DO* to keep their OWN asses from slamming into the rocks below the ramp:

Rob Kells - 2005/12

Following a recent fatal accident caused by the pilot launching unhooked, there has been a discussion on how to guarantee that you are hooked in. The two main methods are:

1. Always do a hang check before launch, and/or

2. Always hook your harness into the glider before you get into the harness.

Interestingly, NEITHER of these methods GUARANTEES that you will not launch unhooked some day. Let's add a third one:

3. Always lift the glider vertically and feel the tug on the leg straps when the harness mains go tight, just before you start your launch run. I always use this test.

My partners (Steve Pearson and Mike Meier) and I have over 25,000 hang glider flights and have managed (so far) to have hooked in every time. I also spoke with test pilots Ken Howells and Peter Swanson about their methods (another 5000 flights). Not one of us regularly uses either of the two most popular methods outlined above.

If you wanna have experts and professionals do your thinking for you, you don't really need to be or belong on Kite Strings - but you'll fit right in with USHGA, the Flight Park Mafia, and the Davis, Jack, and Bob shows. If you wanna do or check the math for yourself and arrive at sound conclusions to benefit yourself and - hopefully - your friends then you're more than welcome here.

No, I will not name the person.

Why not?

This guy believes that the biggest hang glider manufacturer in the world is putting information out in every one of its manuals that ships with every one of its gliders that is significantly increasing the likelihood of a lethal structural failure every time it is flown following the pilot adhering to the preflight inspection procedure. How come he isn't screaming warnings from the highest towers in the kingdom to put an end to this needless carnage instead of whispering private warnings to privileged individuals on the condition of anonymity?

It's SUPPOSED to be a self regulated sport, right?

We're SUPPOSED to give flying fucks about our fellow pilots, regardless of the brand of HGMA certified gliders they're flying, right?

Got a question for ya, miguel...

Who's falling out of the sky at faster rates? People who:
- ALWAYS risk overstressing their wires by applying too much force doing rough field tests during preflight?
- NEVER risk overstressing their wires by applying too much force doing rough field tests during preflight?

[miguel]

Here are some thoughts for you:

WW produces a glider with 2 mm wires. Wouldn't it be wise to check those wires more carefully than the thicker wires of the past? You think the lawyers might have suggested the stomp test as a CYA?

Careful inspection of all wires, both visually and digitally, will give better data than two indeterminant stomps on the sidewires, No?

I will not fly 2 mm wires and will continue with the visual and digital inspection of my wires. I will also take much care when stowing my wires.

You can do as you please. Throw some salt over your left shoulder for good luck.

I was joking about Jim G being your friend.

[Zack C]

I think one is better off with the visual inspection for kinks, proper packing and storage and changing out wires routinely.

I think one is even better off doing this in addition to the WW load test. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Careful inspection of all wires, both visually and digitally, will give better data than two indeterminant stomps on the sidewires, No?

Might as well skip the visual inspection of the wires too because you can't see through the nico to detect the kind of problem which often results in a failure.

Would not doing both give the best data?

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

WW produces a glider with 2 mm wires.

Just 'cause they DO doesn't mean they SHOULD.

Wouldn't it be wise to check those wires more carefully than the thicker wires of the past?

Why would a wise person even fly that glider? I'd get a deposit from Bo and let HIM fly it. "Here ya go, Bo. Show everybody what you can do with this thing! I'll get it on video for ya."

You think the lawyers might have suggested the stomp test as a CYA?

- You think the lawyers who allowed them to produce gliders with two millimeter wires don't totally suck?

- There's a stomp test in the 1987/05/06 original Sport owner's manual. Two millimeter racing wires weren't an option for that bird.

Careful inspection of all wires, both visually and digitally, will give better data than two indeterminant stomps on the sidewires, No?

If your problem is a sharp bend or broken strand - yes.

If there's a problem with an improperly applied nico and you don't have a gauge or a damage or corrosion issue concealed inside the nico or heat shrink - no.

That's why the owner's manual tells you to do both. But if I've got a gun to my head and hafta chose I'm gonna stomp.

I will not fly 2 mm wires and will continue with the visual and digital inspection of my wires. I will also take much care when stowing my wires.

I'm also gonna not do the first and do all the rest. And I'm also gonna continue to follow the other prescribed preflight procedure so I'll have better reliability than you do.

Also... I'm an idiot and the redundancy might catch something I miss on the first pass.

You can do as you please.

Sure, why not? Everybody else seems to in this sport. 'Cept of course people who fly at Flight Park Mafia controlled facilities. Then they've gotta use 130 pound Greenspot safety enhancers and Wallaby, Quest, Lookout, and Bailey releases with long track records.

I was joking about Jim G being your friend.

There are very few people in hang gliding you CAN'T joke about being my friend.

(Zack got in before me and stole some of my thunder.)