I was towing two point with the primary release (Lookout model) attached to the hang loop.
Yech. If I were gonna fly a topless it would be with a built in two point or a one. I wouldn't fly one on a regular basis without something in my teeth but for a few test drives I'd still settle for a couple of garden variety barrels before I'd string all that crap in the airflow. And with the upper anchor point that low you're not getting helped all that much with respect to where you are in relation to the control frame - you're still pretty far forward and losing some speed range.
And get some Speed Sleeves.
I was still using the 200 lb Greenspot you sent with the primary bridle, Tad, and thus still using a No. 8 Bridle Link.
Coward.
I pushed out to follow...
Shouldn't have. Just give it a very conservative little nudge 'cause you WILL be going up anyway when you hit that thermal and if you help too much you'll get into the situation you got into. (Although in the video it doesn't look like you went particularly nuts.)
In retrospect I probably could have saved it but being on an unfamiliar glider I figured it would be best to release before things got ugly.
Should've tried.
- At that altitude the absolute worst thing that could've happened would've been you ending up with a rope you'd have needed to return to its owner before continuing your recreational flying.
- A good tug driver - and even lotsa bad ones - will slow down and let you get the oscillations under control.
- Failing that... you coulda used the lockout experience.
- And even if you broke the glider - what the hell - it was a borrowed one anyway.
In all the years I've been using loop releases this has never happened, and of course the one time it does is when I really need to release.
Chalk another one up for Edward Murphy. The guy was an ABSOLUTE GENIUS, wasn't he?
I took my eyes off the tug and started frantically fumbling for the release loop, knowing my attitude was going to get increasing worse every second I delayed.
DUDE! You actually need TWO hands to control a glider in a compromised situation? By Jove, I believe I can see actual EVIDENCE of this happening in the video! WHO'DA THUNK!!! I certainly hadn't realized that after reading the excellent book by Pagen and Bryden. Maybe you should submit a magazine article to Herr Tim - USHGA's Towing and Safety and Training Committee.
When I landed I found that the primary release appeared to have been triggered...the gate was open at any rate.
It was triggered.
I think the secondary fired an instant before the primary as it looks like the bottom of the primary bridle reached the tow ring first.
I think the bottom end of the bridle cleared the tow ring before the primary release was triggered.
I don't know how either release got triggered but it's possible I triggered the primary since my hand was on it (I think).
Dollars to doughnuts.
The secondary is the bigger mystery for me, and unfortunately none of my cameras show it at the moment of release.
One of Murphy's nephews.
It opened as a result of being dragged over the basetube - that's a very well known issue with barrel releases.
I can't recall if those basetubes have little turbulator ridges like the downtubes but it would be really great if they did. That would make explaining why the stitching run on the starboard side of the Bridle Link was noncontinuous pretty easy - especially if up in the photo is the same up as it was in the air (which it would be if things were configured with the same orientation as in my photos.
I know, Tad, consider it a kill...
Yep. And what awesome video documentation of exactly how it happened. If you had had your cameras rolling in Dallas on 1963/11/22 instead of / in addition to Abraham Zapruder, Oliver Stone would've had to have found something else to make a film about seventeen years later.
And if it had been an ACTUAL kill...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC
Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.
I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.
The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.
That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.
Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????
Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC
Am I "certain" about anything?
Nope.
However, some things get real obvious when you're doing them all the time. One is that weaklinks do in fact save people's asses.
You're 100% onto it... relying on the skill of the pilot is a numbers game that you'll lose at some point.
I find that so many people do not appreciate how fast and furious lockouts can happen.
They're exponential in nature.
Twice the time doesn't equate to twice the "bad"... it's four times the "bad"... then 16... it gets dramatic fast.
Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.
Now flip the argument and you start to see the devil.
A glider can take a whole shitload more force than a weaklink can.
So, if you're of the "sole purpose" cult, then you see no issue with a LOT stronger weaklink.
Well, it won't take long with that system before we've got a lot more dead pilots out there.
So they can stuff their philosophical purity bs... cuz I have no desire to tow someone to their death, no matter how willing they may be.
I'm not playing with this stuff in my head and just dismissing it. There's been a lot that's gone into this system.
I've seen too many people walk the "strong link" road only to find out the reality of things.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
And everybody would also be talking about how you made no effort to actuate the new GT aerotow release that works better than all cable releases that we have experience with at the first sign of trouble and, instead, stupidly tried to salvage a bad situation. (But at least he died doing what he loved, his family is in our prayers, and we know he's in a better place now.)
...I probably would have pulled a secondary in that case...
Nah, you'd have been pulling a backup. You really can't afford to ever let yourself into a situation like that 'cause if you do - as you well know - you are one bridle wrap away from virtually certain death. (Unless Ryan has some other ideas on the issue.)
I'm not that great at tying knots and the amount of slack in the tie-off line I end up with varies.
- Knots can be adjusted after tying.
- I'm thinking that it would be pretty easy to incorporate a Clamcleat in that application so's you could eliminate the knot tying and be able to instantly adjust things for any glider any way you wanted.
- Is the tie-off line Matt incorporated nylon or Dacron?
- You need to get great at tying knots. They're easy and fun and, as you just demonstrated, can be life and death issues in hang gliding. Boy Scouts are required to be able to tie them to get their badges and, considering our lives are a lot more likely to depend on them, we should also be required to tie them to get ours.
My hand needs to be inward enough to keep some tension on the loop or the only thing keeping my fingers in the loop will be the pressure they're exerting on the bottom of the loop against the basetube.
C'mon Zack, that was a rather obvious very bad accident waiting to happen. You could've used a rubber band as a reasonably good patch for that configuration.
Joe Street recommends semi-permanently mounting...
The more permanently mounted these things are the fewer problems and surprises you tend to have with them.
http://www.birrendesign.com/LKStatic.html
Linknife - static line tow setup
Peter Birren
The idea behind any release is to be easy to set up...
Nah, Peter, that actually ISN'T something that should be at the top of your list of priorities. (Although... if you go to the trouble of a permanent installation ONCE the subsequent setups ARE incredibly easy.)
I think that this approach, combined with his Monkey's Fist terminated release cord between two fingers instead of a loop (harder to lose I suspect), could eliminate this issue.
Yes.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306300488/
Everything in my system has had the crap optimized out of it. That's bomb proof.
I've got one of Joe's releases and used it for the first time at the annual NASA balloon festival the weekend before last.
- You should've gotten two of Joe's releases.
- With whom did you make arrangements to do a drop this winter?
I intend to write more about it later after I have more experience with it.
Give him the press he deserves on the Jack and Davis Shows. They'll all hate it 'cause...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14903
New Lookout Release--preliminary test
JD Guillemette - 2009/02/13 03:24:15
Sweeeet!!!! Looks good to me.
I like the bent gate bar, as Marc suggested that should make release force many times less than tow force, if not nearly independant of tow line force.
Nicely done Lookout! Elegant solution!
As in most cases, the simplest designs work best.
...the pin's not bent but maybe you'll be able to get through to someone.
It sucks to lose my snazzy wrap-resistant bridle...
Yep, I was very sad to watch it disappear. And it took six things lining up just right for that to happen:
- loss of the actuator loop on launch;
- overly aggressive tug following;
- resultant PIO;
- call to abort rather than attempt to save;
- autorelease of starboard barrel from contact with basetube;
- success in blowing primary a millisecond later.
Murphy at his finest.
...but not having a bridle...
Shoulda splurged for two. I always like to have a spare in the car for anything that can be lost or easily broken on a fairly routine landing.
And if I can't use a short bridle like a Bridle Link I'm not sure if I can use my secondary releases.
If you look at the "Industry Standard" junk that people get away with for "quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows"...
There's lotsa ways you can configure without needing to lose too much sleep.
- Go to the closet and get your eight foot Industry Standard primary bridle and two to four foot Industry Standard secondary.
- Put a 250 at the top and a pair of alleged Cortland two hundreds on the secondary ends.
- You can use those barrel releases releases on ANYTHING - including the bridle end God's Special Little Messenger insists you connect directly without using a weak link.
- Don't fuck up under two hundred feet.
Do you see any issue with me putting a thimble on my old Spectra bridle for use with Bridle Links, Tad?
If it's a sailmaker's thimble - none whatsoever. If all you can get for the moment is a regular cable thimble - use it. That'll keep things from getting chewed up, it should work OK if you need to go to a secondary, if it doesn't you've got releases on BOTH sides, and you won't need to go to a secondary anyway.
Any chance I can get another bridle from you?
It's gonna be red this time. That'll increase the chances of you getting it back if you lose it and decrease the chances of some piece of farm equipment being brought to a screeching halt.
Annapolis Performance Sailing is hurting on flavors so I just ordered 150 feet of eight inch Amsteel Blue (red) from Redden Marine supply in the upper left hand corner of the 48. You won't have it for the coming weekend but you probably wouldn't have had it that fast even if I had the material on hand. So fly one point and post the video to prove it.
Commentary on video commentary...
I'm not sure if I was actually locked out when the tow aborted.
I think you could've stuffed the bar, gotten to the right, and brought it back easy. Don't worry too much about trying to stay level with the tug when things start getting ugly (like I used to).
I think my hand finally found the release loop, but I'm not 100% sure.
I don't think there's another good explanation as to how the primary opened.
The primary release has begun to move back, implying a sudden reduction in tension. I suspect the secondary release had been triggered at this point.
No question. The starboard barrel has blown.
After landing I observed the release had been triggered, so I don't think the weak link broke.
The weak link DID NOT blow. It was intact and not feeling all that much pain when the barrel opened well in advance of the top and there was no trace of bridle wrap. So it would've been physically impossible for the primary weak link to have blown.
However, I may have triggered the release after a weak link break as the release takes very little force to trigger when it's not loaded.
There was virtually no tension in that system from the nanosecond the pin on the starboard barrel rotated. So you were pulling a release with nothing on it.
Perhaps the towline being directed to my right caused my right arm to contact the release while I was trying to pull the primary's loop. Or it may have contacted the base tube.
It contacted the basetube. Your hand comes off the basetube when you pull the loop that you don't have, it goes back on with the barrel release unaffected, and then it stays on or along the basetube only moving laterally.
The helmet cam shows that the bottom end of the primary bridle was released first. The other cameras show that the bridle is no longer attached to anything.
I think the bottom end cleared before the top end was blown for three reasons...
- The bridle is pretty straight when it's is no more than about six inches from clearing the tow ring.
- At 3:03 the helmet and keel cameras aren't synched - the keel's lagging. From the helmet the bridle is straight minus a slight even sag from end to end and from the keel it's three feet clear of the primary release and waving.
- It would be really cool to be able to say that even my suboptimal bottom bridle end cleared the tow ring under fairly high emergency situation tension with no hint of a tendency to wrap. And there doesn't appear to be any question that it cleared the potential problem spot and rendered that issue irrelevant anyway.
Note that you'd still have your bridle if you had:
- not used it and gone one point; or
- used my secondary / one point assembly on your shoulders. That has the Four-String on the starboard side and it can't auto release. Two hundred feet, spit out the Trigger Line, it becomes inert.
