instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23643
The 2011 Flytec Race and Rally - fourth day

Davis Straub - 2011/05/11 23:53:55 UTC
Quest Air

Julia knocked out, task canceled

It has already been widely reported that Julia Kucherenko came off the cart a little too early today and knocked herself out. The full press emergency services arrived and helicoptered her to the hospital in Albany, Georgia. She apparently didn't break anything (major). The ambulances arrived first (along with the police) to bundle her up, then she was transferred to the copter.

We are launching off the grass next to the runway. I was the third pilot off today and the grass field was much smoother than what we had yesterday in Moultrie. If you are a light pilot you need to push on the cart when it starts. If your nose angle in high (as mine is and as Julia's was) this makes it difficult for you to come off the cart early.

I have been pulled off the cart once before when there was a bad cart design. These are Bobby Bailey designed and built carts and I've never had a problem with the wheels castering. The launch crew had surveyed the possible launch areas and found this area to be the smoothest. Again, the five pilots who launched before Julia had no problems on the carts.

The air was incredibly smooth and powerful. Russell said that his vario on the tug was showing 1,200 fpm as soon as he left the ground and it never quit. I found good lift on tow and after pinning off at 1,900' climbed effortlessly to 6,000' and cloud base. The winds were light out of the west at four to six mph.

From cloud base we could see that there was a problem down below in the launch lane with Julia and her glider. Launch had stopped and there were many pilots around her glider. Jamie Shelden came on my frequency and told me to land and to get Curt Warren who was flying without a radio to land also. It was quite difficult to get down from 6,000' in a timely manner, but we were all down before the copter arrived from the hospital.

Given the late start to begin with and now the disorganization of the pilots as the launch line was a mess, the task was canceled. We would have been starting the task after four o'clock.

Pilots went free flying after the task was canceled. I heard that there was another incident with a cart and a light pilot, but I'm not certain of that. That incident was minor and there were non injuries or any damage to the glider.

Julia has been discharged from the hospital and I think she is staying tonight in the Tajmahualer with us.

Jeesh Davis, she got hurt THAT BAD from just sliding off the cart early?

I'da thunk that she could've just released the trigger string in her teeth and aborted the instant things started going south.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1143
Death at Tocumwal

Davis Straub - 2006/01/24 12:27:32 UTC

Bill Moyes argues that you should not have to move your hand from the base bar to release. That is because your natural inclination is to continue to hold onto the base bar in tough conditions and to try to fly the glider when you should be releasing.

I'm willing to put the barrel release within a few inches of my hand.

Oh yeah, she was probably willing to put the barrel release within a few inches of her hand.

These are Bobby Bailey designed and built carts and I've never had a problem with the wheels castering.

Bet he designed the release too. Specifically, was it one of your Pro Tow Mini Barrel Releases? The kind that won't accidentally open by hitting your base tube, is small and easily stored, and is the most aerodynamic one available?

OK, no way to abort the tow...

She's on a smooth grass field, I'da thunk that she'd have still been in pretty good shape just rolling on her wheels, maybe bouncing into the air and continuing the tow until her 130 pound Greenspot blew to keep her safe - EXACTLY the way Spark does here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb4nUTAJXTk
Aerotow Incident
Sparkozoid - 2009/12/01
dead

Oh yeah, you competition douchebags penalize people for using wheels - so she probably didn't have any.

So did she get dragged and released by the Dragonfly - since she had no way of releasing herself? Or did she slam into the keel the instant the glider came to an abrupt stop the instant the Greenspot blew? (Rhetorical questions.)

At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

Did Saint Bobby ALSO design her weak link to improve the safety of aerotowing? (Another rhetorical question.)

She apparently didn't break anything (major).

Great!

Given the late start to begin with and now the disorganization of the pilots as the launch line was a mess, the task was canceled.

Aw... People coming from all over the world, very light wind, cloudbase at six grand, people having to struggle to get down to make room for the chopper... And you have to scrub the day. And Julia's out of the competition for good after coming all the way from Russia - and probably has to spend a night with you. And probably all for want of either a non shitrigged release or pair of wheels.

Kinda reminds me of what was supposed to be Day One of the 2005 Tennessee Tree Toppers Team Challenge right after the wind dummy launched without his glider 'cause none of you competition and flight park douchebags believe in hook-in checks either. But at least there was no need to bring in a chopper for that one.

Now that I think of it... It also reminds me of this one a little over two years ago...

The Herald on Sunday - 2009/01/10

Hurt hang glider pilot joked bravely with friends after a crash landing, unaware that his injuries were fatal.

But he began losing consciousness as he awaited the arrival of paramedics.

Aucklander Stephen Elliot, 48, was taking part in the Forbes Flatland Hang Gliding Championship in Sydney last Saturday when he landed badly.

Elliot shattered four bones in his neck and damaged several blood vessels that supplied blood to the brain. He was flown to the Royal North Shore Hospital in Sydney and put into an induced coma but died on Monday.

Police said the Australian Transport Safety Bureau was investigating the accident.

Just comes off the cart crooked and ends up dead. No brainer that he was willing to put the barrel release within a few inches of his hand too 'cause it's pretty fucking obvious he had no way of aborting the tow either.

P.S. Carm,

...one was hurt but okay after a hospital visit.

If you're talking about Julia - and you obviously ARE - I would strongly disagree with your assessment that she was "okay" after a hospital visit. This isn't television where after you get knocked out everything's just fine after the next commercial.

[Tad Eareckson]

And now a thread exploding on The Jack Show all about what kind of helmet you should be wearing WHEN you crash coming off a launch dolly - in lieu of any discussion about HOW NOT TO crash coming off a launch dolly.

Reminds me of discussions about:
- what to do AFTER you've launched unhooked
- how best to use a hook knife WHEN your release locks up
- HOW to crash WHEN you blow a standup landing with no wheels

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21879
Julia's face and half-helmets

Rich Jesuroga - 2011/05/14 03:34:32 UTC
Salida, Colorado

Harry Geisler - 1989. Came in too slow to flare on landing at Lookout Mountain in Golden, Colorado... caught his chin guard on the ground and snapped his neck. Quadriplegic for eight months. Committed suicide.

Twenty-two years apart, same launch, probably the same LZ, same unadorned basetube.

I always knew that THEORY of evolution all those scientists are trying to force down our throats as FACT was a load of crap. We are indeed created in God's own image.

[Zack C]

I always knew that THEORY of evolution all those scientists are trying to force down our throats as FACT was a load of crap. We are indeed created in God's own image.

Not to derail this topic, but this was such a strange coincidence I couldn't keep it to myself. At the exact moment I received the email of your post, I was reading this:

Evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

Must be a wavelength thing.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13359
Today was a bad day!

Brian Horgan - 2009/08/26 16:57:41 UTC

hook your harness to the glider before you put it on,its that simple.I dont here any aussie story's of people launching unhooked.Why the fuk is this so hard to understand.If you launch unhooked,its YOUR fault!.Take yourself out of the equation.Im tired of people dieing and getting hurt from stupid shit.

When i get in my bird,i still do a hang check.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18695
How could this accident happen?

William Olive - 2010/01/28 04:50:53 UTC

Phil Beck did this twice (or was that three times?) in a day at Hexham (New South Wales) one time while foot launch aerotow testing gliders. Of course, with a swag of gliders to test fly, Phil would unclip from the glider he'd just landed, then clip into the next one to be tested.

Except, at least twice, he didn't clip in.

Bridle goes above the bar, tension on the line makes it as strong as steel. The tug cannot stop and the glider immediately assumes a high AoA and climbs rapidly. The pilot has no pitch control and is lifted by the basetube rising with the lines. You have a pico second to decide to release before you are at 100' plus, and faced with no palatable alternatives. Phil was quick on the trigger...and lucky to boot.

Lessons learn't? Treat the glider and harness as 'the aircraft'. Do a proper hang check each and every time you front up to fly.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21474
fatal accident in Israel

Grant Bond - 2011/04/28 12:55:06 UTC
Perth

Last weekend this Aussie here in Western Australia (not me) who launched unhooked was lucky not to hurt himself, just his pride. Goes to show us Aussies are far from perfect, still happens here as well.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21868
Don't Forget your Hang Check!

Pablo Vicens - 2011/05/12 09:46:01 UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mX2HNwVr9g
Hang Gliding Fail
andyh0p - 2011/04/24
dead
02-0325

05-0511

09-0919

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21884
Cool way to get your NEW WING FOR FREE

Brian Horgan - 2011/05/14 14:15:57 UTC

you still are a pilot doug,even if you dont fly agian.

So if you three quarters kill yourself by screwing the pooch in the course of some stupid shit...

05-4321


10-5024

...show-off stunt then - COOL!!!, no problemo, you'll always be one of us.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13545
tow accidents

Brian Horgan - 2009/11/01 17:18:06 UTC

if you dont fly then shut the fuk up.

But if you blow the whistle to try stem the flow of people ending up like Doug - and worse - and can't fly 'cause you've consequently been blackballed from sea to shining sea then just shut the fuk up and let all the illiterate assholes who've managed to keep hang gliding in the dark ages for almost all its miserable existence keep consolidating their power.

I'm SO hoping you keep following your own advice and take yourself out of the equation.

P.S. I got no huge problem with stupid shit show-off stunts - done plenty of them. Just don't fuck up when you're trying to pull them off.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21879
Julia's face and half-helmets

Ryan Voight - 2011/05/14 19:17:23 UTC

I fly with an open face helmet. I tried a full-face, and felt disconnected. Not so much in-flight, but there was a noticeable different in determining flare timing. I went another couple years before revisiting the idea.

I really, REALLY like the Icaro 4Fight helmets, and a friend let me try his. In flight, with the visor up, I didn't notice much difference- same as the other full-face I tried. When I pulled the visor down, everything suddenly went quiet. At full VG and with the bar at about my chest, I clearly had plenty of airspeed... but my ability to judge (guess) my airspeed was considerably reduced. I didn't have an airspeed indicator, so the only thing I could use to judge speed was bar position, and that's not a reliable source.

I put the visor up, and set up my landing. I came in fast, like I usually do... and as I got upright to transition the visor slid down over my face. I suddenly felt very disconnected again, and the only way I could judge how much energy I still had was to gently push out and see how fast I climbed. I didn't climb much, so I started a gentle flare. I wound up be a touch early, and going up higher than I expected (only a few ft)... I looked down to see how high I was, and all I saw was the chin guard. The chin guard was pressed against my chest mounted parachute, and I couldn't look straight down when upright.

The landing was a non-event, but I haven't tried a full face helmet since. Not to sound cocky, but my dad and I are some of the best (quality and consistency) landers I know... and we both *coincidentally* fly open-face helmets. I'm not saying it's why we land well, practice and experience are the biggest, but I think it helps.

- How many other fixed wing aircraft pilots rely on the feel of wind in their face - or their airspeed indicators - to pull off safe and precise landings?

- You and your dad are professional pilots who fly all the time. Most people who fly hang gliders aren't and don't.

Doug Hildreth - 1990/03

We all know that our new gliders are more difficult to land. We have been willing to accept this with the rationalization that it is the unavoidable consequence of higher performance. But I see my job as a responsibility to challenge acceptance and rationalization. From my perspective, what I see in the landing zone and what I see in the statistics column is not acceptable. Crashes on landing are causing too many bent downtubes, too many minor injuries and too many serious or fatally injured pilots.

So what are we going to do? One reply is, "We should teach all those bozos how to land properly." Well, we've been trying that approach for the past few years and it has NOT worked!

- That's never gonna change, Ryan.

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

- The problem is NOT the pilots. The problem is the stupid dangerous stunt you're asking them to do at the end of EVERY FLIGHT.

In the case I know of personally, was a pilot named Laslo, and occured in Ellenville, NY. He was landing a topless in no-wind, attempting a running landing- but couldn't run fast enough. He kind of stumbled and fell to his belly as the bar hit and the nose went over. The chin guard of his helmet dug a divot in the grass... and he had a broken neck (the chunk of sod stayed on the chin guard of the helmet). You are correct, we can only infer the broken neck was CAUSED by the helmet. It's what I believe, but that means nothing really...

If he had rolled it in would he have had to have worried about running fast enough, stumbling, falling, catching his basetube, nosing over, digging a divot with his chin guard and breaking his neck?

...as the bar hit...

No wheels. Topless dudes are too cool to use wheels. How come you're saying NOTHING about wheels?

In the end... that whack (we've seen whacks just like that time after time)...

Yeah.

...was entirely preventable, had we been more sensitive that 'just a whack' is something unsafe, rather than merely embarrassing.

Yeah, lose the chin guard so this topless pilot can time his no wind flares better - and will just skid in on his chin when he doesn't.

If Mavi's just looking for something to debate (as I suspect, based on our interaction on a previous thread)...

Why are we examining the purely cosmetic and temporary damage to this girl's face, and talking about helmets.

WHY DON'T WE TALK ABOUT HOW THE FRICK SHE SMASHED HERSELF INTO THE GROUND?!

Tad Eareckson - 2011/05/13 19:07:33 UTC

And now a thread exploding on The Jack Show all about what kind of helmet you should be wearing WHEN you crash coming off a launch dolly - in lieu of any discussion about HOW NOT TO crash coming off a launch dolly.

Good Ryan.

It'll be interesting to see if anybody gets around to talking about wheels, releases, and/or weak links. I'm guessing EVENTUALLY someone will be so bold as to broach the first issue - but hope dims quickly after that.

[Tad Eareckson]

Sixty-four posts so far on The Jack Show and nothing much in the way of an indication of intelligent life.

But if you look carefully on The Davis Show - and you have to look carefully 'cause the topic is not "Julia's face and half-helmets" but rather "The 2011 Flytec Race and Rally - fourth day" - the crack team of carefully selected analysts starts springing into gear after only ten.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23643
The 2011 Flytec Race and Rally - fourth day

Bill Jacques - 2011/05/14 03:52:37 UTC
Boca Raton

What's really interesting is that they launched off concrete the very next day.
Plow into that and you'll definitely modify your face.

HEY!!! Are you insinuating that the meet heads are running a dangerous operation? Fuck you, man.

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

They have weak links which, as we ALL KNOW...

...will break before you can get into too much trouble.

(Julia obviously must've doubled hers by mistake.)

Perhaps someone can invent some reusable wheels that drop off after launch?

Bill

BRILLIANT!!! Why didn't I think of that! After all, launch is the only part of the flight at which wheels could possibly be of any use. Let's work on that.

(We HAVE some reusable wheels that drop off after launch. A set of them is called a launch dolly.)

Davis Straub - 2011/05/14 12:38:18 UTC

If your tail is too high and your angle of attack too low...

As opposed to having BOTH your tail and angle of attack too high - which would be insanely dangerous...

...you are being pushed down on the cart and it is hard to get off it. You push out hard to get the glider off the cart and then pop up too high and too quickly and most likely break the weak link.

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

One witness stated that Julia's keel support in the tail bounced up and pushed the keel/tail up and her nose down.

And - OBVIOUSLY - y'all fixed that problem before putting any more gliders up or moving to a concrete runway. Right?

The tug was off the ground while Julia was still on the cart. I have never seen this happen before. Usually the pilot is long off the caret before the tug is off the ground. This indicates that she was pinned to the cart and that the keel support was too high to begin with.

http://ozreport.com/15.093
The 2011 Flytec Race and Rally - fourth day

Davis Straub - 2011/05/11 23:53:55 UTC

It has already been widely reported that Julia Kucherenko came off the cart a little too early today and knocked herself out.

Right Davis. She came off the launch caret a little too early - a little too early to double the previous launch cart world speed record.

Bill Jacques - 2011/05/14 16:04:56 UTC

If your tail is too high and your angle of attack too low, you are being pushed down on the cart and it is hard to get off it.

I'd change "hard" to close to "impossible" once you are in that position and downward wing pressure is increasing due to acceleration.
That's gotta be a sucky feeling realizing that.
Does it go too fast to pull the plug on the line?

Kinda depends on where your actuator is.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1143
Death at Tocumwal

Davis Straub - 2006/01/24 12:27:32 UTC

Bill Moyes argues that you should not have to move your hand from the base bar to release.
I'm willing to put the barrel release within a few inches of my hand.

http://ozreport.com/pub/fingerlakesaccident.shtml

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg

Can you see that you are in a potential dangerous situation in time?

If you can't get to your actuator without risking cartwheeling the glider, what the fuck does it matter?

(Excuse my question, but it's been a long time since I towed up.)

That's OK, you were rated at Florida Ridge so we'll cut you A LOT of slack.

(You can't avoid a caster getting stuck in a hole/rut...

Not at Florida Ridge anyway. (Assuming you wanna fly that bad.)

...but perhaps there is some way to abort a terminal launch AOA and roll on the dolly to a stop.)

YES! If only there were some way to abort a launch. Some way to RELEASE the glider from tow. Wait a minute, it's coming to me... GOT IT!!! A WEAK LINK!!!

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release

You're right on the verge of blowing these things all the time anyway...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/11155
Question

Shane Nestle - 2010/09/17 22:17:50 UTC

So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped. Fortunately, I fly with solid wheels on the glider, so me, the glider, and the dolly all rolled safely to a stop with no damage to anyone or anything.

You have to be pushing it close to its limit if you're still on the ground and the Dragonfly isn't.

I'll bet all you'd have to do is drag a toe to generate the requisite extra tension and...

Instant hands free release

Jim Rooney - 2011/05/14 19:41:02 UTC

but perhaps there is some way to abort a terminal launch AOA and roll on the dolly to a stop.

There is.
Not to be snarky... but...
Hit the release.

What do you mean "HIT" the release?

We've to date heard NOTHING about her release configuration. But when you hear hoof beats it's probably best not to think zebras. The probability is about 110 percent that she was flying an idiot Bailey Release with a barrel within a few inches of her hand - rather than an idiot Wallaby Release with a lever on the downtube.

Unfortunately, our brains aren't wired to act that quickly.

Unfortunately, your "brain" isn't wired to act quickly enough to avoid getting crushed by a bull Galapagos Tortoise starting a charge from a hundred yards on a cold morning.

Sure, it's theoretically possible, but you'd have to anticipate this failure scenario and train for it.

How come this doesn't seem to be all that big a fucking deal when a ten year old kid on a bicycle needs to abruptly abort a thirty mile per hour head of steam when a car backs out of a driveway in front of him at the bottom of a steep hill?

We just don't have that much mental power in an emergency.

Never mind... Too easy. (Reserve the exclusive right to use it at a later date however.)

We implement "plans" that we've arranged prior... we don't construct new ones.

WE!!! Don't you DARE EVER use that pronoun again. You're in a class all by yourself - with Davis, Jack, Adam Elchin, Bruce Satatis, Bo, Steve Wendt, Jim Gaar, Peter Birren, Butch Pritchett, Holger, Craig Hassan, Bill Bryden, Jim Rowan, Spark, Cragin, Paul Hurless, Jason Dyer, Steve Forslund...

The way we actually function is to carry out the last instruction, which is fly.

Right Jim. Exactly the same way the ten year old kid carries out the last instruction - which is to build and maintain as much speed as possible - no matter what happens within a fifteen second window of commitment.

('Cept - 'cause his brake system wasn't "designed" by some flight park douchebag - he doesn't have to risk cartwheeling or flipping his bike to go from thirty to zero in a couple of seconds.)

BTW, if you want to see a little of what I'm talking about... try it.
With zero stress and tons of planning... roll down the field... hit the release before you leave the ground.

There's no such thing as zero stress taking a hand off the basetube below two hundred feet.

See first hand how unnatural it is.

Why stop at the first hand? After that one comes off the bar you have so little control of a dangerous situation that there's not much point in trying to do anything with the second one.

What happens when the dolly's going twice as fast as it's designed to and you let go of one hold-down to pull a barrel? Any chance that side of the glider will slide off the bracket?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb4nUTAJXTk
Aerotow Incident
Sparkozoid - 2009/12/01
dead

Maybe she'd be better off letting go with both hands simultaneously. Oh wait! She doesn't have wheels! Never mind, she's pretty much screwed no matter what. Probably couldn't have expected a better outcome than what she got.

Your brain fights it.

Even that warped little tangle of neurons you try to use as a brain? Even that retains enough reptilian level function to recognize an action that's in the worst possible interests of you staying in the gene pool and attempt to override it?

Then imagine trying to pull that off with no planning... never even suspecting that you'd need to do so.
You'll quickly understand why it's not going to happen.

I understood that the first time I got on a launch dolly while the doctors were struggling to get the umbilical cord loosened enough from around your neck to prevent further oxygen starvation. And I was equipped so that I wouldn't have that problem. But that was before the Wallaby Release was made available - and mandatory.

How I know?
We do this to students.

NEVER have I heard a more succinct and inadvertently honest statement emerge from the lips of a hang gliding instructor. Sums up damn near everything that's rotten about hang gliding in just five words. How eloquent.

Believe me when I say, it's a freaky freaky thing to hit the release on the ground.

And in the air - as people like Dan Cudney, Joel Lewis, Frank Sauber, Richard Graham, Debbie Young, Mike Haas, and Steve Elliot could tell you if they were still around.

YMMV

My mileage DOES vary - you vile brain damaged little shit.

I don't HIT my release - I just twist my grip on the basetube if I'm flying two point or let go of the string in my teeth if I'm flying one. But you and your klan of fellow motherfuckers made damn sure that technology was never made available to anyone else. May you all start rotting in hell just as soon as possible.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23643
The 2011 Flytec Race and Rally - fourth day

Davis Straub - 2011/05/14 12:38:18 UTC

The tug was off the ground while Julia was still on the cart. I have never seen this happen before. Usually the pilot is long off the caret before the tug is off the ground. This indicates that she was pinned to the cart and that the keel support was too high to begin with.

I don't think ANYBODY has ever seen that happen before, Davis - even on a heavy tandem flight.

And it occurs to me now that we haven't heard the name of the tug driver.

Granted, blowing a glider that can't do its job off from the front end is not the tug's job or responsibility and I'm almost always opposed to such interventions...

But with the Dragonfly in the air and a little girl still pinned on the ground going a million miles an hour and still level...

Won't that be the time if ever there was one? So much more opportune than the way Corey helped out Rob Richardson and his passenger with their dolly problem.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21879
Julia's face and half-helmets

Dave Hopkins - 2011/05/16 03:02:46 UTC

Ryan Voight - 2011/05/14 19:17:23 UTC

WHY DON'T WE TALK ABOUT HOW THE FRICK SHE SMASHED HERSELF INTO THE GROUND?!

I was there. I didn't see it happen, but was privy to all the discussion surrounding the two incidents that day.

Both pilots had their cart severely caster on the rough ground. Wind was cross and down on the most severe incident. Julia let go and tried to force herself off the cart. She thought she had plenty of airspeed. (Her words.) The glider fell to the ground and beaked.

The end results, final advice I heard was to hang on to the cart until it lifts off the ground. Set yourself at trim and resist being pulled through. Make sure your AOA is high enough. If it's too low you could get stuck on the cart. Then you know you have lift and airspeed. This was from the people that invented aerotow in the U.S.

As always some things are learned the hard way. DON'T tow on rough ground. The next two days we used the runways and it was very smooth. The day before we had towed on rough ground and pilots commented on how bad it was. It seems we often push things until someone gets hurt then we go OH! This isn't working. Let's do something safer.

mms - 2011/05/16 08:31:00 UTC
Russia

According to her explanation (in deltaplanerizm.ru) - she already had problems with leaving carts due too low angle of the wing. Just never realized how serious it is could be. Low angle of wing is due to the shorter uprights of her small Combat 12. It's shorter than a typical Moyes or WW. So she always had starts with lowest possible rear support position. And quite often it were not low enough. She usually kick glider a bit to leave cart. So the major version as far as I understood - she kick the glider than got some some altitude under base bar, but rear part is still sitting on the cart (looks like rear tube got marks from cart on the crash btw) and glider did not want to increase angle of attack despite she pushed the base bar. So being not pooled any more by base bar cart moved back and kicked wings rear up - so wing got lesser angle of attack and smashed to the ground.

So first she was pulled off the cart early on a grass field that was much smoother than what they had the previous day in Moultrie, then the cart bounced and readjusted itself tail high and pinned her down, and now FINALLY (hopefully) she was routinely having to force herself off the cart and finally got bit.

GREAT! Now we can stop talking about releases that only let you release when you don't need to, weak links that routinely blow just off the cart, and how advisable it is to launch on grass or concrete without wheels.

Both pilots had their cart severely caster on the rough ground.

But hey, why should the meet heads reevaluate things until somebody needs a chopper? The conditions were IDEAL for a comp day. (Too bad the comp day had to be scrubbed anyway 'cause somebody needed a chopper.)

She thought she had plenty of airspeed.

Have we still got the Dragonfly being fully airborne before the crash? 'Cause if we do I'm having a real hard time imagining how she didn't.

The glider fell to the ground and beaked.

- Beaked? Does that term adequately convey what happened?
- And it just goes without saying that there were no wheels 'cause who can imagine a comp glider having wheels.
- How's the glider look?

The end results, final advice I heard was to hang on to the cart until it lifts off the ground. Set yourself at trim and resist being pulled through. Make sure your AOA is high enough. If it's too low you could get stuck on the cart. Then you know you have lift and airspeed.

And this:
- differs from what was known about dolly launching a quarter century ago how?
- sort of thing isn't covered in the course of obtaining an AT signoff?

This was from the people that invented aerotow in the U.S.

Ah yes. The people that invented aerotow in the U.S.

The fine folk who gave us the:
- Loop of 130 pound Greenspot that blows at 260 pounds of tow tension regardless of whether it's on a towline or one or two point bridle end, puts all solo gliders at 1.0 Gs, and infallibly blows before you can get into too much trouble.
- Double loop of 130 that blows at 520 pounds direct loading that's perfect for all tandems (but severely endangers the tug driver if used by a solo).
- Concept that it's only necessary to put a weak link on one end of a bridle.
- Dragonfly tow mast that breaks away at the same tension that the double loop of Greenspot does (whatever that is).
- Concept that it's OK two use a weak link up front that's lighter than the one at the back.
- Dragonfly wing strut that looks like it's properly bolted into place when it isn't.
- Breakaway aileron activator crank.
- Welded spinnaker shackle.
- Downtube mounted release lever.
- Bent pin release.
- Assurance that you can't stall on aerotow so it's always OK to push WAY OUT at any altitude.
- Best technique for snatching and hurling cell phones this side of Iran.

So how come the people that invented aerotow in the US didn't:
- have a launch dolly that was safe for anyone flying a Combat 12?
- do anything after the first incident?

As always some things are learned the hard way. DON'T tow on rough ground.

I think Wilbur and Orville had this basic concept doped out pretty well.

It seems we often push things until someone gets hurt then we go OH!

Especially when you've got a bunch off shitheads running the show - as you always do at these events.

Let's do something safer.

Until next time. Then you can start all over again.