http://ozreport.com/9.022
Worlds organization critique - a response
Davis Straub - 2005/01/25
Angelo had some good points, but not all of them were good.
Weaklinks are a big issue. The problem is that pilots "learn" to make stronger and stronger weaklinks because they do not want to have a weaklink break when it is dangerous (they are low and out of control) and they are penalized by the meet rules which put them to the back of the launch line after they land. Bill Moyes lost eleven spectra ropes the first two days of the Worlds because the pilots' weaklinks were a lot stronger than the ones at the tug end.
Weaklinks are normally seen as a pilot responsibility (although sometimes the meet organizers have taken over that function - search the Oz Report for "joke weaklinks"). But, weaklinks really are a collective issue, because they affect the safety of tug pilots and other competitors. As Robin's death showed, one pilot's mistakes can affect everyone.
First, the rules should allow pilots who break weaklink under five hundred feet to come back and launch again at the front of the line. This may seem unfair, but we need this to discourage pilots from eliminating weaklinks.
Second, for the good of the meets, the meet organization should include their weaklink (adjusted for pilot and glider weight) in the tow line at the pilot end. They did this here after Robin's death, by putting a weaklink between two rings, hooking one ring to the pilot's tow bridle and the other to the tow rope. The pilot can have any weaklink that they want, but the meet organizers have their weaklinks also, on both ends of the tow line.
Angelo had some good points, but not all of them were good.
Well then, Davis, you just make up for the not good points Angelo had with some extra good ones.
Weaklinks are a big issue.
- Really? Haven't heard too much about them for the past three years...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC
The accepted standards and practices changed.
Why do you think that is?
- Funny that weak links are such a big issue but nowhere in this post do we see anything even vaguely hinting at actual breaking strengths - or even material so's we can duplicate these big issue items and find out for ourselves.
The problem is that pilots "learn" to make stronger and stronger weaklinks...
Oh. PILOTS "LEARN" to make STRONGER and *STRONGER* weak links. First they make them...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links
michael170 - 2012/08/17 17:01:40 UTC
Zack, let me see if I understand your logic.
You had a thing and it broke needlessly.
You didn't want the thing to break needlessly.
You replaced the thing with a stronger thing.
Now the thing doesn't break needlessly.
...strong enough to not break needlessly. Then when they only break neededly they keep making them stronger. Which begs another question... If they're not breaking neededly then how come the PILOTS are still around to make them stronger? Also... How come they're not taking tug pilots out with them?
...because they do not want to have a weaklink break when it is dangerous (they are low and out of control)...
- That's PILOTS for ya... Not wanting flying to be any more dangerous than it has to be. What a bunch o' assholes. If we keep minimizing risk what will we have to attract us to the sport?
- Bullshit. A weak link break is NEVER *DANGEROUS*...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:15:12 UTC
Oh, in case it's not obvious (which it doesn't seem to be), once someone starts telling me what the "sole" purpose of a weaklink is, I tune them out as they have no clue what they're talking about.
Weaklinks are there to improve the safety of the towing operation, as I've stated before.
Any time someone starts in on this "sole purpose" bullshit, it's cuz they're arguing for stronger weaklinks cuz they're breaking them and are irritated by the inconvenience. I've heard it a million times and it's a load of shit. After they've formed their opinion, then they go in search of arguments that support their opinion.
Weak links are there to improve the safety of the towing operation, as Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney has stated before - about thirty times a month 'cause we muppets are all so stunningly slow on the uptake. It's just irritation at the inconvenience of having their lives saved six times in a row in light morning conditions.
- A glider that's "low" and "out of control" IS locking out and WILL die. Why would ANYONE *NOT* want to have a weak link break when he's in a low level lockout? If you weren't flat out lying to us about this, pilots would be fighting over Davis Links and fuzzing them down a bit before reaching the head of the line under your scenario. And these are motherfuckers who won't get within a hundred yards of any glider that doesn't have a backup loop and locking carabiner.
What you've just revealed to / confirmed for us is that gliders UNDER CONTROL and maybe in the process of recentering after being bumped by turbulence are being crashed by their Davis Links increasing the safety of the towing operation. Thank you.
...and they are penalized by the meet rules which put them to the back of the launch line after they land.
- Yeah?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/30 10:26:08 UTC
Everyone has thier 582 "asphalt grinder" horror story to tell... but they all start the same way... "I was towing behind a 582
Yes, you can leave the cart too early, even behind a 914 (you just have to try harder), but guess what? You can leave late too. And more often than not, people used to 582s that get behind 914s do so, then they break weaklinks at 5 feet off the ground because they fail to adjust thier techniques to match the launch conditions. The regularity of this is saddening.
After the first couple weaklinks, they ask what's up (most often in the form of "can we tow slower?"... or my personal favorite "Why can't I use two weaklinks?") when I explain to them that taking the cart into the air with them might be counterproductive... that towing behind a 914 isn't the same as a 582... Then, amazingly, they stop breaking weaklinks.
The only reason they're breaking weak links is because they're insisting on using 582 technique - taking the cart into the air with them - behind 914s... So why SHOULDN'T they be penalized by the meet rules which put them to the back of the launch line after they land? Or hell, BEFORE they land? Why should we take any shit off of these assholes? Why not just disqualify anyone who takes the cart into the air with him behind a 914?
- Big fuckin' deal. They've just had their lives saved by the perfectly timed actuation of the Davis Link. And they're worried about having to go to the back of the line and wait a bit?
I've come very close to being killed by a lockout - free flying at Jockey's Ridge in the South Bowl when my Comet 165 got massively overwhelmed by a thermal blast, turned 180, and dumped downwind back low towards the face of the dune. Wasn't even using a Tad-O-Link and having a hard time understanding how a Davis Link would've been able to defuse that situation. Pulled out at the last instant and rocketed up and cleared the spine by a few feet. I never went up in those conditions again - particularly immediately after the incident.
So if you're having lives saved by Davis Links then how come the Safety Committee isn't shutting down the task - the way it did right after John Claytor locked out coming off the cart in the crosswind and broke his neck?
Bill Moyes lost eleven spectra ropes the first two days of the Worlds because the pilots' weaklinks were a lot stronger than the ones at the tug end.
- Fuck those pilots. What a bunch of inconsiderate bastards using weak links a lot stronger than the ones at the tug end! We need to do something about this situation.
http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble
Adam Parer - 2009/11/25
Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
How are we ever gonna get any competitions off the ground if people are using weak links a lot stronger than the ones at the tug end?
And when they don't pull eleven Spectra ropes off the tugs in two days they're gonna have unfair competition advantages - like the 220 pound gliders using the same Davis Link as the 320 pound gliders.
- Oh no! The pilots' weaklinks were a lot stronger than the ones at the tug end! That's insane! So...
-- What WERE the ones at the tug end?
-- How did we arrive at the figure for the one's at the tug end and what's that figure supposed to be doing for us?
-- Any chance we can see the breaking strength test results data for the ones at the front end?
- You had eleven out-of-control gliders behind tugs in just the first two days? Must've been a few low and out of control, right? So you probably had a couple lives saved because these front end weak links broke when they were supposed to. So how come none of the eleven gliders recognized they were out of control and possibly in danger and released? Did they all think they could fix bad things and not wanna start over? Funny we don't ever seem to have any testimonials from these pilots who owe their lives to the front end magic fishing line and warnings to their fellows considering reducing inconvenience with Tad-O-Links.
Were you allowing them to continue in the competition? How were they able to qualify for an AT launch comp in the first place?
- So how come in not one of these eleven incidents in which the tug was beginning to be put dangerously out of control by these locked out Tad-O-Linkers did the driver squeeze the dump lever on his joystick? How come the front end fishing line beat the tug pilots - who can all fix whatever's going on back there by giving the glider the rope - eleven out of eleven times?
-- And don't insult our intelligence by telling us their were twenty incidents in which the tuggies DID fix whatever was going on back there by giving the glider the rope. 'Specially not sixteen days after Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey, the best tow pilot in the business, thought he could fix a bad thing - Robin Strid locked out and welded to a Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey spinnaker shackle release gate by the focal point of his safe towing system - and pulled him into one of the most violent low level lockouts in the history of hang glider aerotowing and killed him instantly.
-- Also we know from decades of crash reports and years of watching videos that no tuggies EVER fix whatever's going on back there by giving the glider the rope. And on the occasions in which the glider IS given the rope it's usually killed as a consequence. And that's in the only realish advisory u$hPa's ever been forced to publish.
- So what you're saying is that the tug end weak link was perfectly adequate as far as increasing the safety of the towing operation was concerned. Not one of the tugs was being put the least bit out of control by the locked out gliders. And we have total proof of this in the account of the Robin Strid fatal lockout accounts and reports. (Also the video I saw on David Glover's laptop at an ECC one year.) So why didn't you just put the tug end weak links on the gliders and beef up the front end by fifty pounds? Or, if that would've been too far into the test pilot range, why not just use the same weak link on both ends? Bill Moyes would've only lost five and a half Spectra ropes the first two days of the Worlds.
- How do you know the pilots' weak links were "A LOT" stronger than the ones at the tug end? How do you know they weren't just five pounds stronger than the ones at the tug end? You're saying "a lot" to emphasize what a bunch of assholes the PILOTS were? They started pulling the ropes off of the tugs and "learning" to make stronger and stronger weak links to have even less and less chance of them breaking when it was dangerous (they were low and out of control) and even more assurance of having 250 feet of Spectra dumped in their faces? I can now certainly see why you put
learn in quotation marks.
- None of you fuckin' dickheads have the slightest clue what ANY of this stuff blows at yet you're able to determine that anything that blows anything else - regardless of the condition of the anything else - is A LOT stronger. Suck my dick, Davis.
- So now...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout
Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC
I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.
...YOU've also "learned" to make YOUR weak link stronger and stronger. Sounds like there are a lot of pilots out there who tend to "learn" to make stronger and stronger weak links because they do not want to have a weak link break when it is dangerous (they are low and out of control) a lot faster than you. How did you stack up to them in your speed at "learning" in the third grade?
- The "PILOTS'" weak links? The PILOTS' weak links are on the...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
...FRONT end. The guys on the gliders are just PASSENGERS with the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver. I figured that one was pretty well understood in the flying community. Gotta say that I'm a bit surprised that Davis Dead-On Straub - who's been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who - is so totally clueless on this issue.
- Bill Moyes LOST eleven Spectra ropes the first two days of the Worlds because the pilots' weak links were a lot stronger than the ones at the tug end? So these stupid, reckless, inconsiderate Tad-O-Linkers all just dropped the ropes they had just been given while they were locking out and dumped them where they knew nobody would ever be able to find them? Including the two or three who pulled the ropes off in low level lockouts fifty feet off the runway?
- Wow! Bill Moyes must be a real Fucking Genius too! After the first couple Spectra ropes he lost he kept on doing the same thing over and over again expecting better results. Decided to try doing something different after just nine more. Ditto for the dickheads - including Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey, the best tow pilot in the business - flying his Dragonfly fleet.
- Lessee... The PILOTS' weak links were A LOT stronger than the ones at the tug end. And for TWO DAYS they were pulling Bill's and Bobby's towlines off the tugs. So tell me what the assholes on launch monkey detail were checking at the head of the line?
22-05002
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1496/25472477525_d1a0baa400_o.png
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2938/14605940091_e8ee87f2ea_o.png
23-05216
Webbing color on the bent pin barrel releases?
- How was it possible for a Tad-O-Link to pull a rope off a tug? I was under the impression that...
http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks
Davis Straub - 1999/06/06
During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.
I told him that I would be happy to publish anything that he wrote about weaklinks, but I never received anything from him or anyone else at Quest.
A few weeks later I was speaking with Rhett Radford at Wallaby Ranch about weaklinks and the issue of more powerful engines, and he felt that stronger weaklinks (unlike those used at Wallaby or Quest) were needed. He suggested between five and ten pounds of additional breaking strength.
To compensate for the greater power of the 619 engine that Rhett has on his tug, he deliberately flew it at less than full power when taking off or in anything other than absolutely smooth conditions. He started doing this after he noticed that pilots towing behind his more powerful tug were experiencing increased weaklink breakage.
A number of the pilots at the US Nationals were using "strong links" after they became fed up with the problems there. These "strong links" were made with paraglider line and were meant to fool the ground crew into thinking that the pilot had a weaklink.
The problem with strong links (neither Bobby Bailey nor I was aware at the time of the US Nationals that pilots were doing this) is that they endanger the tug pilot. If the hang glider pilot goes into a lock out, and doesn't break the weaklink (because there isn't one), they can stall the tug. I assume that Bobby Bailey won't hear about the use of strong links at the US Nationals until he reads it here.
...the Tad-O-Link just overrode the Dragonfly's tow mast breakaway protector and pulled the tug into a fatal stall.
- So aren't Bailey-Moyes Dragonflies used for towing tandems in the same thermal conditions you had at the comp? How come we don't hear about tandems either popping off the end of the rope or pulling the rope off the Dragonfly at the kinda rate we're hearing for the solos from this report?
- So after the first two days we don't get to hear anything about Bill Moyes losing Spectra ropes because the pilots' weaklinks were a lot stronger than the ones at the tug end? Wanna know WHY, people of varying ages?
http://ozreport.com/9.009
2005 Worlds
Davis Straub - 2005/01/11
This type of release mechanism has been banned (at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay. When the weaklink didn't break and after the release didn't work even though it was open, the 5 mm bridle line holding the release broke and going to the pilot's shoulders, and then the 1.5 mil cable that opens the release broke. Bobby released the tow line approximately when the pilot's wing tip hit the ground (Nice job fixing whatever was going on back there by giving Robin the rope, Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey.) which is when Rohan felt the cable on the release mechanism broke.
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/robinsshacklebig.jpg
- Oh. Bobby released the tow line approximately when the pilot's wing tip hit the ground, which is when Rohan felt the cable on the release mechanism broke. But Bobby wasn't feeling enough from the Tad-O-Link induced death and destruction going on behind him to give us any help on the timeline?
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC
Ya'll need to think long and hard about cutting into my margin of safety... cuz that's what you're talking about.
Did any of the ladies present faint at the sight of what was happening to Bobby's Dragonfly at the peak of this carnage?
- That's the shit that broke on impact while Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey's front end weak link was doing just fine and while Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey wasn't fixing whatever was going on back there by giving Robin the rope even at the peak of the thinning of his safety margin. So the reason we don't hear about any more lost towlines is 'cause after the eleventh one on Day 2 the shit-for-brains of the Bailey-Moyes team started functioning enough to put a standard TANDEM aerotow weak link on the front end. So we know that we're above what it took to blow what it did on Robin's assembly and below the approximately four hundred pounds towline it takes to blow the double loop on the Dragonfly bridle or the tow mast breakaway - whichever happens to blow first (since they're supposed to be about equal).
So this is the OTHER reason all the players are screaming bloody murder about Robin's deadly Tad-O-Link - to divert attention from the fact that they'd also installed a similar deadly Tad-O-Link on the front end 'cause they stopped being happy with the inconvenience of saving all those Tad-O-Linkers and having all those towlines pulled off. (On top of the first reason of Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey's spinnaker shackle release (which was banned (at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay) snagging the focal point of their safe towing system (with all the launch monkeys happily having given it the thumbs up)).
So now we have the weapon we need(ed) to debunk the crap about a heavy solo weak link cutting into the Dragonfly's safety margins. Doesn't get any worse than that. Violent fatal low level lockout at little below what the Dragonfly's tow configuration can take and Bobby doesn't even get slightly wobbled.
And if they wanna blame anything on the Tad-O-Link on the back end they're also indicting Bobby and Bill for the Tad-O-Link on the front end.
Weaklinks are normally seen as a pilot responsibility...
FUCK THAT!
- The "pilot" isn't even the PILOT. He's the PASSENGER behind the Pilot In Command up front. He has the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver. I figured that one was pretty well understood in the flying community.
- The "pilot" doesn't understand that the purpose of the weak link is to increase the safety of the towing operation - after being crashed by it as many times as he has. There's no fuckin' way he's got things sussed half as well as a tug pilot.
- The "pilot" will, when allowed to make his own decisions, ALWAYS make one which puts the tug pilot at extreme risk. I can't even BEGIN to tell you how many tug pilots have been crashed and killed over the years by muppets with Tad-O-Links.
...(although sometimes the meet organizers have taken over that function - search the Oz Report for "joke weaklinks").
How 'bout we search THIS:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
for joke weaklinks on the Oz Report, Davis? Maybe we can learn a bit about coincidences.
But, weaklinks really are a collective issue, because they affect the safety of tug pilots and other competitors.
Yeah? Can you cite an example?
As Robin's death showed, one pilot's mistakes can affect everyone.
- And that relates to weak links...
http://ozreport.com/9.032
The Worlds - weaklinks
Rohan Holtkamp - 2005/02/07
After viewing video evidence of the entire flight, even a 80kg weaklink would have made little difference. His actual weaklink did test to be stronger than 180kg, but that was not the primary cause of his accident. Release failure was, same as Mike Nooy's accident. A full lockout can be propagated with less than forty kg of tension. Read "Taming the beast" on our website and/or come have a look at the video if you doubt this in any way.
...how?
- Wanna know another pilot's fatal mistakes that are gonna affect a lot more everyones than Robin's did?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg
- But bridles, release systems, wheels, skids, protective gear, harnesses, glider models... Nonissues. Use or don't whatever the fuck you feel like. Not really worried about your qualifications and experience either. We're only concerned with the focal point of the safe towing system.
First, the rules should allow pilots who break weaklink under five hundred feet to come back and launch again at the front of the line.
- Why stop there, Davis? If we're gonna reward crappy airmanship at glider comps why not reward the pilot who sinks out halfway through the task with goal made and top speed points? Fifty bonus points if another competitor has to get out of line and drive retrieval for him? If we don't have enough bonus points available we can just take them from the retrieval driver 'cause we all know where nice guys are supposed to finish.
- Five fifty feet when your Davis Link pops? You should be able to climb out from there. If ya can't... You can go fuck yourself.
This may seem unfair, but we need this to discourage pilots from eliminating weaklinks.
- Oh. So now using a weak link which holds while the glider's climbing normally in position behind the tug and doesn't dump him into a lethal stall is defined as "ELIMINATING weak links".
- Tell me how it's possible to ELIMINATE a weak link when you've got crap on the front end dumping gliders climbing under control eleven times in two days.
- Any thoughts on discouraging pilots from using Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey spinnaker shackle releases which...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318769461/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318781297/
...don't release. Nah, were banning them (at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay. That should be plenty. Let's not go too nuts on this safety thing.
- Don't worry, people of varying ages... This only SEEMS unfair. It's actually EXTREMELY fair.
Second, for the good of the meets, the meet organization should include their weaklink (adjusted for pilot and glider weight) in the tow line at the pilot end.
Oh. We're gonna adjust for pilot and glider weight...
http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.
What a novel idea. So how are we gonna do that - without, of course, every saying anything about pounds?
They did this here after Robin's death, by putting a weaklink between two rings, hooking one ring to the pilot's tow bridle and the other to the tow rope. The pilot can have any weaklink that they want, but the meet organizers have their weaklinks also, on both ends of the tow line.
In other words... The pilot can have any weak link THEY want - as long as it's the meet head's or the tug driver's - whichever decides to crash THEM first.
What color Model T would you like? We have these five black ones out front and half a dozen black ones around the side. If you're interested in something else we're due for a shipment of ten black ones to come in Thursday morning.
Funny you still mention NOTHING about breaking strengths, Gs, compliance with u$hPa SOPs and FAA aerotowing regs, what these particular strengths are supposed to be doing for us.
It's ASTOUNDING how much duplicitous TOTAL SHIT motherfuckers like this are able to cram into a dozen harmless looking sentences.
This is a sleazy infomercial with hang gliding safety lipstick lathered on an inch thick. This is gonna prop up the reputations of the towing gurus, shore up standard aerotow weak link insanity, make the world safer for shit Industry Standard releases with shit load capacity, and disempower the recreational pilot to the maximum extent possible for untold years to come.
And nobody's gonna call this motherfucker on this crap 'cause he and his cronies control the high ground. So let's all hope for a few more AT park collapses. I think we have some momentum going for us. Note that no other AT parks were overflowing with qualified drivers looking for work for the 2016 season in a situation in which they would be holding a lot of cards during the salary negotiation stage.
