Departing the launch cart - Davis Show

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/02/25 16:52:59 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 13:49:10 UTC
Bill Jacques - 2007/08/24 13:00:55 UTC

I like to lift the wheels up only and inch or two..
It's ok, but generally not necessary...

So when IS it NECESSARY?

- Can you cite an incident, show me a video of a launch in which it WAS necessary?

- How are we supposed to know when it's necessary? You're not giving us any parameters?

- If it's necessary can't we more easily stay on the cart another couple seconds to the point at which it will become unnecessary again?

- Isn't it ALWAYS necessary for tandems? Their carts are built into their gliders so don't they ALWAYS lift them at least an inch or two before continuing the next five thousand feet for the thrill ride?

- How 'bout sailplane aerotowing? Is there something analogous there?

...and almost always overdone.

Yeah, it's ALMOST ALWAYS overdone.

- Hardly anyone ever does it.

- Just about all the people who DO do it are doing 'cause they've been told to and how by their instructors - who are watching and critiquing them.

- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is able to carefully assess what all the gliders 250 feet behind him every second while he's bouncing along approaching his Mach 5 914 takeoff speed by looking into his shaking and vibrating convex mirror.

-- If some:
--- stupid muppet lifts the cart a foot or two he's gonna have a chance of seeing it.
--- muppet does things "right" and lifts the cart an inch or two there's no way in hell he's gonna see it.

-- Therefore, obviously, it's ALMOST ALWAYS overdone. Like if you look at the Blood Alcohol Content of the people who've had a Blood Alcohol Content after they've been extracted from the wreckage of their cars it's obvious that drinking before driving is ALMOST ALWAYS overdone 'cause the people who had a glass of wine at the dinner party three hours before driving home are pretty much totally absent from the data sample.

- And, of course, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney knows all the relevant statistics from all the AT operations...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/14 06:27:16 UTC

Works to do what? If by 'works' you mean ensures an efficient operation by getting pilots to altitude reliably...
Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
...we disagree.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC

AP flies in OZ
I have no clue what they're using over there.

...on the face of the planet.

...(too much of a good thing)

Oh. It's "generally not necessary" but it's ALWAYS a good thing. Pray continue.

You're trading one evil...

An evil good thing.

...for an other.

When I was in the first grade "an other" was one word.

Slow launch vs radical wingloading change.

Fuck yeah! Sport 2 155. Hook-in weight range - 150 to 250 pounds. Go from min to max / Throw on an extra hundred pounds, increase the flying weight 48 percent, double that difference putting it in a coordinated 60 degree banked turn - no fuckin' problem. Lift the front end of a 35 pound launch dolly for a second or two at takeoff speed - RADICAL WINGLOADING CHANGE!

You're looking to know that your glider is indeed flying, but you're drastically changing your wingloading in the process.

SHOCKLOADING! Watch those leading edges bend...

If you have the stomach.

Once the glider's tugging against your grip...

The grips you're using to transmit the force which drastically changes your wingloading when you lift the front wheels off the runway.

...it's flying.

Just as long as your Rooney Link doesn't suddenly...

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...increase the safety of the towing operation anyway.

Dragging the cart completely off the ground does you nothing...

Hear that, people of varying ages? Don't drag the cart completely off the ground when you're taking off. That does you nothing. Probably also a good idea not to fly into a taxiway sign or the side of hangar when you're landing. But better run that by Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney to make sure that doesn't do you anything either. I'm just a weekender muppet.

...it merely serves to complicate your life.

And that's the primary function of...

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...the Rooney Link. It'll also end it...

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...if things line up just right. But make damn sure you don't complicate your life by lifting the front end of the cart up a couple inches.

Why not let the glider fly?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/19 14:50:52 UTC

And yes, get behind me with a "strong link" and I will not tow you.

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

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...(as you've seen the times you've forgotten the rope?)

Hey Bill... Ya know another way to simplify your life? Lift the front end of the cart up as high as you practically can while leaving the tail wheel on the ground. Because of the issue of the second class lever - a concept hang gliding pin benders are completely incapable of grasping - you're lifting the most weight when you put a millimeter's worth of daylight between the runway and the front wheels. The higher you lift the front end the more weight the tail wheel is feeling and the less you and your glider are feeling. Ignoring rolling and wind resistance issues, when you have the cart standing vertically on its tail the wheel's supporting one hundred percent of the weight and you and your glider are supporting ZERO.

So next time you launch hold onto the cart until the front end is five feet off the ground then explain to the assholes at Florida Ridge that you're lifting the cart the first inch to ensure that you have safe airspeed then the rest of the way so's you won't have such a radical wingloading change when you let go. Win/Win. Simple is always better and safer.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/02/25 20:33:04 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 13:49:10 UTC

Additional questions:
#1)...

Bill Jacques - 2007/08/24 13:00:55 UTC

1. Immediately after I lift off, I adjust to about 6 - 10 ft off the ground and wait for the tug. And I hold it there until you lift up. Then I follow the tug (wing to wheel level) up, right?
Exactly.
It's the textbook answer...

What textbook? Is there a textbook we can go to and find out stuff like release capacities, weak link strengths, crash investigation results?

...and it works.

- Just like the standard aerotow weak link. Proven system, long track record.
- Oh. So if you can lift the cart you'll have flying speed when you let go? Duh.

#2)...

2. Also, is single point tow ("pro tow") much harder than keel/harness tow? When should a pilot switch over to that? What are the advantages/disadvantages to single point?

No and Yes.
Pro tow is actually "easier", but it's less forgiving.

Most easier things are. Standup landings are really easy if people would just bother to perfect their flare timing - but if the don't they tend to break a lot of arms and necks.

3 point is more forgiving, but you're abdicating control for autopiloting.

Which is harder. Just doing nothing and allowing the glider to autocorrect as the tug climbs and turns and thermals kick your ass all over the sky is a real bitch.

You're more restricted in what you can do while under 3 point...

Yeah...

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Right.

...your nose is getting drug around, like it or not...

Fuck yeah. You're at fifty feet, feel like locking out, shove the bar over all the way, strain to hold it... Goddam fuckin' three point bridle just...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

...drags you back in line with the tug and you continue your boring ride on up to release altitude.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3648
Oh no! more on weak links

Carlos Weill - 2008/11/30 19:24:09 UTC

Incident 1
On June of 2008 during a fast tow, I noticed I was getting out of alignment, but I was able to come back to it. The second time it happen I saw the tug line 45 deg off to the left and was not able to align the glider again I tried to release but my body was off centered and could not reach the release. I kept trying and was close to 90 deg. All these happen very quickly, as anyone that has experienced a lock out would tell you. I heard a snap, and then just like the sound of a WWII plane just shut down hurdling to the ground, only the ball of fire was missing. The tug weak link broke off at 1000ft, in less than a second the glider was at 500ft. At that point I realized I had the rope, so I drop it in the parking lot.

Mistake #1 Did not stay behind the tug
Mistake #2 Did not release earlier
Mistake #3 Did not use the secondary

Incident 2
As a background, after release I wrap the bridle on my hand to stow it away. The bridle is the 3-point brake release in the hangloop carabiner. More than 18months ago 2007, under during a turn when tow forces were too strong, my weak link broke. But bridle was still attached to the tug because the bridle was coiled and had wrapped itself around the carabiner. However I had left the weak link intended for pro-tow on the harness and it broke. This happened in no more than 2 seconds.
Since then I when I set-up I make sure the bridle has no twists and still keep the pro-tow weak link.
I welcome any face-to-face questions or comments on these incidents. Anyone who wants recommendations for their towing or training, you have a great pool of knowledge in the tow parks especially from the ones that do it regularly and have the experience in the tug and behind the tug.

...but it's harder to screw up.

Obviously. So Jim...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.

The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.

That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.

Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.

If you're towing three point then what's it matter what gear you're using? Why can't you just run a rope from your shoulders to the keel and cut yourself off with your hook knife?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.

It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

Nobody's talking about 130lb weaklinks? (oh please)
Many reasons.
Couple of 'em for ya... they're manufactured, cheap and identifiable.

See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.

How could it possibly make the least difference what we three point muppets use for a weak link? A weak link just breaks before we can get into too much trouble and it's physically impossible to get into ANY trouble...

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...with a three point.

With protow, you have more control over the glider...

Right...

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...(you're the only one telling it what to do)...

250 pounds worth of towline tension pulling on the front of your harness in whatever the fuck direction the tug is from you and Mother Nature will have NO EFFECT on your control of the glider WHATSOEVER. It's not like in free flight where you can get knocked on your ear by a thermal in a blink.

...but that control can allow you to get yourself into bad situations easier.

Well fuck... It's not like I'm STUPID or anything. I wouldn't try to go sideways like I do when I'm on three point and know the tug's gonna drag me back by my nose. Well, I suppose I could get confused and try to follow the wrong Dragonfly... But aside from that.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

Just stay on tow.

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You'll be fine.

I'll use the "pulling in on the cart" example again (though it's certainly not the only one)...
You can pull in 3 point and get negative.

Big problem. People pulling in three point while they're on the cart and diving into the runway.

You can get pulled through and get negative.

- Which is a lot more likely when you've only got half the towline tension going to you.
- And, of course, when you're being pulled through the glider will react by DIVING.

But it's harder... because the tug is 1/2 pulling the glider even if you're sleeping.

That's OK, Jim. I'm still willing to try. I refuse to be defeated just 'cause the tug will only be giving me half the help I'd have otherwise.

Try this during pro tow... you WILL go negative.

You're gonna need to lengthen your arms a couple feet 'cause you'll have the bar stuffed...

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...as you're coming off the cart.

The tug is pulling only you.

And not using half the tension to pull the nose forward and down so, obviously, it will be twice as easy to tuck the glider. Simple as three minus one equals one.

(btw, don't actually try it [duh], it's rather dangerous)

Yeah. Two people were quaded and one was killed just last year doing this.

So harder? No.
Easier to screw up? Yup.

Why has nobody driven so much as a single stake through this motherfucker's heart? The scumminess of a culture that let's him get away with shit like this is totally beyond comprehension.

I wonder if one of the reason's Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney decided he liked the New Zealand winter just as much as he likes its summer and Highland Aerosports is going extinct for want of a tug driver is because this asshole was too much of an embarrassment for even u$hPa to tolerate. That WOULD follow the pattern of him abruptly ceasing to have a presence on the forum when the infallible standard aerotow weak link Ponzi scheme totally collapsed in the wake of Zack Marzec.

SMART stupid aerotow industry dickheads know enough to keep their mouths shut - 'cause they know they'll be torn to shreds opening them after teaching all their students that an additional weak link on the other end of the bridle doubles the required towline breaking strength. Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney was really the only one of these assholes going out and engaging. Started out pulling a very transparent scam that he was this all-knowing authority on everything, tricked himself into believing it along with all of his target idiots, blew both his feet off and belatedly realized there was no way for them to ever grow back.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/02/26 19:19:16 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Bernard Winnkelmann - 2007/08/24 15:10:42 UTC
Calgary

Single point...

...as opposed to triple point...

...towing gives you complete control.

The age-old dream of mankind - to fly through the air with COMPLETE CONTROL has finally been realized with single point hang glider aerotowing. Anything we desire to do with our birds we can. If we can just conceptualize a maneuver we can pull it off with little more than thinking about it. We are no longer at the mercy of the conventional physics. We can do things that hummingbirds can't even begin to imagine.

The few times I have done 3 point towing...

...which is single point towing with another point added...

...I remember I could lock the bar position to trim at any speed I wanted if the balance between the pilot and the keep...

...keep" being the Canadian term for "keel"...

...was right.

Imagine that. If you position the third point properly you can "TRIM" the aircraft. But apparently...

With single point, you control the bar position always.

- And you either don't or can't always control the bar position when you remove the third point and just leave one.
- Anywhere from three quarters to full back - a hitherto unimaginable speed range.

If you let go, it will trim up.

Bull fucking shit. If you let go you'll be pulled FORWARD...

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 11:48:03 UTC

Don't let the tug pull you through the control frame (this is the same as you pulling in).

Same as pulling in. The glider will trim DOWN.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 12:20:06 UTC

In pro towing, you're it.
The tug will "want" to pull you through the bar.
If you let it, you're essentially pulling in.

All result in leaving the cart at too high a speed.

Bad habit #1, not flying the glider... just letting the tug drag you around by the nose, combines with the fact that pro towing REQUIRES the pilot to do something (not let that bar move). So instead of holding the bar where it is, bad habit pilot just lets the tug pull him. This pulls him through the control frame with the same effect as the pilot pulling in... a LOT.

I've seen gliders go negative while still on the cart this way.
The results are never pretty.

See?

The advantage of single point is that you can put everything away.

Also the advantage of going up Everest in shorts, a T-shirt, tennis shoes, a Coke, three granola bars, and a fanny pack.

You don't have a rope or extra hardware anywhere on your glider.

And:
- it would be totally fucking moronic to run everything up inside your port downtube the way you've got your VG system on the other side.
- SIMPLER is *ALWAYS* BETTER!

The come back and release can be stored in pockets on your harness.

Betchya ya didn't even know ya HAD a come back, people of varying ages.

The disadvantage of single point is especially apparent behind a trike. A trike typically has to fly faster and climbs slower than a dragon fly. So, you as the pilot...

As the...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

Ok, keyboard in hand.
I've got a bit of time, but I'm not going to write a dissertation... so either choose to try to understand what I'm saying, or (as is most often the case) don't.
I don't care.

Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.

Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.

...PILOT?

...need to fly faster.

- Really? I heard you could be going Mach 5 coming off the cart well before a 914 Dragonfly has left the runway.

- Sure is a good thing that single point towing gives you complete control. Otherwise you might not be able to get the bar back far enough.

- So what happens when a single point glider gets blasted up by a thermal behind a Dragonfly? He's going in a different direction and thus faster than the tug, right? So he needs to be flying faster, right? But if he COULD fly faster he already would be, right? So can we safely and definitively conclude that he CAN'T fly faster to hold it down level with the tug?

You did say that a single pointer is at a distinct disadvantage at high tow speeds, right? So is there some disadvantage other than single pointers being physically incapable of doing high speeds without going up like fuckin' rockets and into...

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

FATAL TOWING ACCIDENT

The first accident occurred in Germany at an aerotowing competition. The pilot launched with his Litespeed and climbed to about 40 feet when he encountered a thermal that lifted him well above the tug. After a few moments, the glider was seen to move to the side and rapidly turn nose down to fly into the ground, still on tow, in a classic lockout maneuver. The impact was fatal.

Analysis

This pilot was a good up-and-coming competition pilot. He had been in my cross-country course three years ago, and this was his second year of competition. What happened to him is not too unusual or mysterious. He encountered so much lift that although he was pulling in the base bar as far as he could, he did not have enough pitch-down control to get the nose down and return to proper position behind the tug. This situation is known as an over-the-top lockout.

I am personally familiar with such a problem, because it happened to me at a meet in Texas. Soon after lift-off the trike tug and I were hit by the mother of all thermals. Since I was much lighter, I rocketed up well above the tug, while the very experienced tug pilot, Neal Harris, said he was also lifted more than he had ever been in his heavy trike. I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending. By the time we gained about 60 feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a 20-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver. I cleared the buildings, but came very close to the ground at the bottom of the wingover. I leveled out and landed.

Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany. The normal procedure for a tow pilot, when the hang glider gets too high, is to release in order to avoid the forces from the glider pulling the tug nose-down into a dangerous dive. This dangerous dive is what happened when Chris Bulger (U.S. team pilot) was towing John Pendry (former world champion) years ago. The release failed to operate in this case, and Chris was fatally injured. However Neal kept me on line until I had enough ground clearance, and I believe he saved me from injury by doing so. I gave him a heart-felt thank you.

The pilot in the accident under discussion was an aerodynamic engineer. He had altered his glider by lengthening the front cables and shortening the rear cables to move his base tube back. The amount was reportedly 10 centimeters, or about 4 inches. This is well within the acceptable range, according to Gerolf Heinrichs, the Litespeed designer. Why the pilot altered his bar position in this manner is anyone's guess, but my guess is that it was because he felt the bar was too far out on the glider with the VG off. This Litespeed was the pilot's first topless glider and I expect he wasn't informed that most of the new topless gliders experience a great movement of the base tube as the VG is pulled through its range. The result is that the bar is so far out and the pitch pressure so strong that with the VG off, that the standard procedure is to take off and land with at least 1/4 VG. If the pilot didn't know this he would have been tempted to move the bar.

Factors that attributed to the accident in various degrees were the pilot's experience, the conditions and the alteration of the base tube. To begin, he wasn't greatly experienced in aerotowing, although he had learned and spent much of his flying with surface tow. It is difficult to assess the effect of the turbulence, but suffice it to say that it was strong enough to project him upward, well above the tug. Finally, the alteration of the basetube position could have been a contributing factor because he certainly would have had more pitch authority if he hadn't done that. It is impossible to tell, but perhaps the thermal that lifted him would not have done so as severely if he had had a bit more pitch travel.

What We Can Learn

To begin, alteration of our gliders should not be done without full agreement and guidance from the factory or their trained representatives. Even with such approval, be aware that the factory might not know how you will be using your equipment. Changing the pitch range of a glider is a fairly serious matter and should only be done with full understanding of all the effects.

Secondly, over-the-top lockouts are not frequent, but common enough in big-air towing that tow pilots should all have a plan to deal with them. Think about this: When we are lifted well above the tug, the tow system forces becomes similar to surface towing, with the limit of tow force only being the weak link. The susceptibility to a lockout is increased in this situation.

My experience leads me to believe that a strong thermal hitting when low can push you vertically upwards or sideways before you have time to react. If this happens when I am low, I fight it as hard as I can until I have clearance to release safely. If I am high above the tug, I stay on line with the bar pulled in as far as possible and keep myself centered if at all possible. I fully expect the tug pilot to release from his end if necessary for safety, but in the case of a malfunction, I would release before endangering the tug.

We are taught to release at the first sign of trouble, and I fully support that general policy, but in some cases, the trouble happens so fast and is so powerful that a release low would have severe consequences. In my case, I was instantly high above the tug with a strong turn tendency and a release at that point would have been ugly. The main point for us to understand is that we must gain our experience in gradually increasing challenges so we can respond correctly when faced with different emergencies. It should be made clear again that a weak link will not prevent lockouts and a hook knife is useless in such a situation, for the second you reach for it you are in a compromised attitude.

Thirdly, experienced pilots should be aware that towing only from the shoulders reduces the effective pull-in available to prevent an over-the-top lockout. Like many pilots, I prefer the freedom of towing from the shoulders, but I am aware that I must react quicker to pitch excursion. Sometimes reactions aren't quick enough and emergency procedures must be followed. It seems to me that we shouldn't be overly eager to encourage lower airtime pilots to adopt this more advanced method of aerotowing. Normally, we tow topless gliders with about 1/3 VG pulled to lighten pitch forces and increase speed. Intermediate gliders are often towed as much as 1/2 VG pulled for the same reasons. Pilots must understand these matters when aerotowing.

Finally, I think it is appropriate to remind all dealers, instructors and pilots in general to inform their customers and friends that the new topless gliders exhibit the notable bar movement with VG travel as explained above. As such, it is normal to take off and land with 1/4 VG on in order to place the bar in a position to roll easier and to reduce the pitch pressure. It is much easier to maintain safe control speed with the VG pulled 1/4.

...over-the-top lockout mode? Isn't the effect of towing single point EXACTLY THE SAME as altering your nose and tail wires to move your control bar way the fuck back? Doesn't that make you a...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.

The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.

That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.

Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.

...TEST PILOT? Didn't Zack Marzec get his stupid pro toad ass killed by...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

The person you have to convince is me (or whoever your tuggie is).
I've had this conversation with many people.
We've had various outcomes.
I can tell you what my general ideas and rules are, but you do not need to agree with them nor do you get to dictate anything to me... if I'm not happy, you ain't getting towed by me. Why I'm not happy doesn't matter. It's my call, and if I'm having so much as a bad hair day, then tough. You can go get someone else. I won't be offended. Each tuggie is different, and I've had someone ask me to tow them with some stuff that I wasn't happy with and I told him point blank... go ask the other guy, maybe he'll do it.

I can tell you that for me, you're going to have a hell of a time convincing me to tow you with *anything* home-made.
"But I love my mouth release! It's super-delux-safe"... that's great, but guess what?

I've towed at places that use different weak links than greenspot. They're usually some other form of fishing line. Up in Nelson (New Zealand), they don't have greenspot, so they found a similar weight fishing line. They replace their link every single tow btw... every one, without question or exception... that's just what the owner wants and demands. Fine by me. If it wasn't, then I wouldn't tow for them and I wouldn't be towed by them. That's his place and he gets to make that call. Pretty simple.

Up at Morningside, they're using that new orange weaklink. It's a bit stronger and it has to be sewn or glued so it doesn't slip when unloaded.

If you're within the FAA specs and you're using something manufactured, then you're going to have a far better time convincing me to tow you.
My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.

So I hope that sheds some light on the situation.
But again, every tuggie's different and every situation is different.
What doesn't change however is that it's my call, not yours.
And it's my job to be the "bad guy" sometimes.
Sorry. It's just the way it is.

...being a "TEST PILOT"? Because he and his idiot fucking friends were too fucking stupid to understand what can and will happen when you decertify your glider and use a Rooney Link to increase the safety of the towing operation and learn anything from the fatality reports on previous "TEST PILOTS"?

There are two problems here and you have to find a balance between the two. 1. You can solve that problem by pulling in.

What if...

03114
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http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/14097626583_03972773c6_o.png
03-02421

...you're ALREADY pulled in? Then what should you do? Grow your arms longer?

That is fine and dandy, but you will get tired after a while.

Oh. That's the only problem? Cool. I can live with that.

2. Put VG on to reduce bar pressure to help with problem 1. This is fine and dandy provided you don't start PIO.

Fuck yeah. Just don't Induce Oscillations. No brainer. You don't hafta worry at all about compromising your roll control authority. It's not like the air through which you're towing is gonna kick you out of your perfect position in the center of the Cone of Safety. It's just after you release that you need to slacken the VG to allow you to point the glider in the direction you wanna go. Like you just said...

Single point towing gives you complete control.

...single point towing gives you complete control.

A dragonfly moves slow enough that number 2 is usually not a problem.

Good. I never worry about anything that usually isn't a problem. I'm almost always hooked in when I start my launch run so I never bother doing hook-in checks. In the past ten years I've only launched unhooked twice and those were on pretty shallow slopes so I just totaled the gliders and got beat up a little bit. (I see that Jon Orders was participating in that event. Plus unhooked launchers Davis Straub and Mike Barber. Plus idiot fucking Mark Dowsett who launches his scooter tow students unhooked all the fucking time.)

With a 3 point system, because the tug is also pulling on the keel, your pitch pressure is significantly reduced or can be adjusted to have none at all.

Yeah. Care to say anything about bar position relative to the pilot at normal towing speed for...

02-02405
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03-001306

...one and three point? Just kidding?

With single point, the only adjustment is your VG.

Or arm length.

Dunno if any of that made any sense.

Yeah.

- You had me at one plus one equals three.

- SOME of it makes sense. You said that the tug pull on the pilot pitches the glider UP - which is correct and the opposite of the totally demented crap Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney spewing. But in order for that to benefit hang gliding and the people in it you need to call him an incompetent demented lying pigfucker in no uncertain terms. That may not do much IMMEDIATE good but WHEN the next pro toad Rooney Linking asshole test pilot gets killed you'll be able to say toldyaso and align yourself with other halfway competent voices in the sport.

As to the accident, I wonder if the guy was too low in the keel cradle.

That makes no sense whatsoever. The guy's not in the keel cradle and one can't be too high or low in it - just as one can't be too high or low standing on the floor.

Since most of the gliders at the worlds were Moyes with shorter downtubes, I wonder if the tail was set too low on the cart and he came off stalled.

Bullshit. Shortly after the cart starts rolling the wing starts flying and...

11-05129
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13-05825

...the keel lifts out of the cradle and the cradle becomes one hundred percent irrelevant. This crash...

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1562/25190537495_d9a39e894f_o.jpg

...was obviously at a pretty high groundspeed and a reasonably high airspeed. And he'd launched and towed successfully and without criticism - even retroactive criticism - up to that point.

A low keel support is ONLY an issue in a strong crosswind as you begin your roll.

WW gliders need a higher tail due to their longer downtubes.

So if the tail had been low shouldn't the very experienced and very much in charge ground crew leaders borne the bulk of the credit...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/09/03 01:39:55 UTC

I think that I know the one that is being referred to.

The problem was an inexperienced female student put on a cart that had the keel cradle way too high, so she was pinned to the cart. The folks working at Lookout who helped her were incompetent.

...and shouldn't they have been named by Davis Dead-On Straub?

The day the guy crashed, we...

Oh. You were there.

... had very little wind.

Yeah. Look at the windsock.

The previous 3 days we had decent wind and we were off the carts after 20 ft of rolling. That day, I distinctly remember rolling for 100-120 ft. It was strange going so fast for so long with my face inches off the pavement.

- Well just foot launch then. It's a lot safer 'cause:
-- it's SIMPLER
-- your face is five feet off the runway so's if you blow the launch it's highly unlikely to hit
- But the meet heads had:
-- built safety into their system
-- prohibited the individual pilots from doing anything
-- an absolute requirement for certain types of bridles, weak links, and secondary releases
-- tug pilots who were experienced and well trained
-- ground crew leaders who were very experienced and very much in charge

So launching from pavement wasn't really a big fucking safety deal.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/02/26 21:13:39 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

George Stebbins - 2007/08/24 15:42:29 UTC
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 13:49:10 UTC

You're looking to know that your glider is indeed flying, but you're drastically changing your wingloading in the process.

Once the glider's tugging against your grip, it's flying. Dragging the cart completely off the ground does you nothing... it merely serves to complicate your life.
And then when the wind drops off 3 miles an hour, you aren't flying any more and you crash on the runway.

Bullshit.

I've seen it happen.

Sure ya have, George. You've seen people rolling three miles per hour over stall and just as they come off the cart doing just fine the wind suddenly lulls three miles per hour and they crash. Bullshit. If you've seen anybody crash off a cart it's been some bozo with zero feel for the glider and a total fucking asshole instructor who signed him off for solo AT.

I'm not saying that you need to take the cart into the air by feet. But the key is to have it not just "tugging against your grip", but significantly tugging against your grip.

I don't think I've ever been the least aware of any tug against my grip. Guess I'm too distracted listening to and feeling my glider.

For some that's enough. For beginners (and anyone who wants a margin of safety), I submit that it is far safer to let the cart leave the ground a bit.

Fine. Just recognize that that's always gonna translate to a more time and labor intensive cart retrieve.

No abiguity there.

Ironic spelling of ambiguity.

If the cart comes up you have sufficient extra airspeed to handle any reasonable wind changes. The question here is how much margin of safety do you want in airspeed.

If that's something you really need to think about you're already in way the fuck over your head.

As for sudden wing loading changes, that's a bogus issue unless you are taking the cart significantly higher than I'm suggesting.

It's a totally bogus issue PERIOD. It's a totally bogus issue if you take the fucking cart up to...

...thirty fucking feet.

A spare inch or two works wonders, as in many things.

A spare inch or two is when you're maxing out the "wingloading" as much as you will before the goddam cart comes totally off the ground.

That's a bogus issue? But he's OK on:

- Getting pulled through the control frame has the same pitch-down effect that pulling yourself does.
- MODERN carts have adjustable tail height because after twenty-five years of one-size-fits-all tow operators discovered the problem of launching gliders nose high in crosswinds.
- The "THEORY" of lifting the cart was born (at least partially) out of the problem of gliders groundlooping in crosswinds.
- If your glider isn't trimed well for towing (keel point tow off, vg set wrong) it will have the effect of wanting to pull you through the bar... same thing as the tug.
- In three point towing, 1/2 the energy is transmitted to the glider, 1/2 to you.
- Allowing the tug to pull you through the frame will result in leaving the cart at too high a speed and pretty much guarantee that you will slam into the propwash - because you'll get to the propwash a lot faster than you would if you just flew the same speed as the tug.
- The propwash makes the glider harder to control. It's like swiming in the rapids instead of a calm lake and it tends to help break standard aerotow weak link - much more so than putting a 350 pound glider on the same weak link that's been perfectly optimized for a 200 pound glider.
- There's an "I shouldn't need to do anything on tow" mentality that particularly affects people with transitioning from three point to one point towing.
- Three point towing is so autocorrecting that it's impossible for a muppet to move out of the dead center of the Cone of Safety.
- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney has seen gliders go negative while still on the cart because muppets don't resist being pulled through the control frame. (The results are never pretty.)
- 582 and 914 towing techniques differ radically.
- The wingloading change is much more dramatic behind a 914 than it is behind a 512.
- Holding on a second too long behind a 914 has dramatic results. You wind up slaming into the propwash at the same time you're radically altering your wingloading by dropping the hundred pound front end of your cart.
- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney can't count the number of weak links he's seen break due ALONE to the radical alteration of wingloading by the dropping of the hundred pound front end of the cart just as the glider's slaming into the propwash. (It's not a horrible problem, but it just makes Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney shake his head. And it's almost always overdone).
- Muppets are needlessly complicating their lives by dragging carts completely off the ground.
- Pro tow is actually "easier" than three point, but it's less forgiving.
- Three point is more forgiving but one is abdicating control for autopiloting.
- You're more restricted in what you can do while under three point. Your nose is getting drug around, like it or not. And that's a bad thing. But it's harder to screw up. And that's a good thing.
- With protow you have more control over the glider. (You're the only one telling it what to do.) But that control can allow you to get yourself into bad situations easier.

Show me something that's oozed out of this total douchebag's mouth that ISN'T totally bogus - AT BEST.

And fuck you, George, for letting him get away pretty much entirely with this deadly total crap.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/02/27 18:06:44 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Tommy Thompson, Sr. - 2007/08/24 16:12:02 UTC

When going from Two point to One point towing it should be noted that there is a change in bar position.

No there's not...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22233
Looking for pro-tow release

Zack C - 2011/06/16 03:14:35 UTC

I've never aerotowed pilot-only, but it is my understanding that this configuration pulls the pilot forward significantly, limiting the amount he can pull in further.

Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 05:11:44 UTC

Incorrect understanding.

Incorrect understanding.

Lessee...

Tugs and gliders are going up at the same airspeeds, angles of attack, pitch attitudes, climb rates with the same tow tensions. But the two pointer's got the bar under his chin and the one pointer's got it under his shoulders.

So how come Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney has blathered on for about an hour and a half about 914 propwash and dramatic wingloading changes but has made zero comments about bar position and at no time in the remaining five and a half pages will acknowledge your statement and its glaringly obvious truth and significance?

Maybe 'cause once these Flight Park Mafia motherfuckers acknowledge that point they'll inevitably be forced to concede that these gliders are being flown in a decertified and dangerous configuration?

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 19:05:36 UTC

George... lemme guess... this guy was behind a 582?

Good job treating Tommy and his post as if they didn't exist and steering the conversation towards some incompetent asshole victim of some incompetent asshole AT operation blowing a launch by coming off a dolly at two thirds of the speed he needed.

Dustin Martin - 2007/08/24 19:06:11 UTC

the human asphalt sander was flying my old wing and it towed fine as far as i can remember. the 144, which that glider is, has had 65" downtubes for some time now, identical to a litespeed. the nose angle will be the same.

shift keys broken, dustin? i feel for ya, brother. happens to me all the time. (really pisses me off.)

Bill Jacques - 2007/08/24 19:32:22 UTC

okay Dustin, I get the "human asphalt sander" part..
but WTF?!?!..
could you (or someone else) translate what the rest of this cryptic message means?
BTW - Did you sell him that thing with wheels on it?

Did ya catch what Tommy was saying about one versus two point bar position?

George Stebbins - 2007/08/24 21:03:33 UTC

I don't know about that, but I towed behind the very same tug a short while later.

What!? You couldn't TELL whether it was a 582 or a 914? How do know what technique to use without knowing what engine is pulling you?

No problems at all.

Sounds like you just lucked out matching the technique to the plane you had.

But then, I waited until the cart left the ground. (Just barely.)

So you're saying that it doesn't really matter what plane you have? You just come off the runway whenever you've achieved safe airspeed?

The real issue was that this guy left the cart as soon as the glider was flying and he had pressure on the hoses.

Probably should've waited until he had pressure IN the hoses - where non hang glider people tend to have it.

But there wasn't much pressure...

Fuck you, George.

...and the wind dropped off by 3 mph just as he let go. He couldn't pull in for speed, because he was only a foot off of the ground. If he'd waited a few second, he'd have come off the cart and gone to five feet or so, with extra airspeed.

But if he'd waited a few more second beyond that he'd have hit the propwash, there'd have been a dramatic change in wingloading, his Rooney Link would've increased the safety of the towing operation and the inconvenience would've left him in even worse shape.

He would have had less chance of stalling...

'Specially after going to five feet or so with the extra airspeed.

...and more altitude to solve the problem.

- 'Cause he'd wisely used his extra airspeed to go to five feet or so.

- What...

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2016/02/27

A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

Remember: it is almost impossible to stall under aerotow. The induced thrust vector makes the glider trim at a higher attitude. It is OK to push way out; you will climb, not stall.

...problem? How is it possible to get into a problematic situation with a weak link connecting the V-pull to the release and providing a safe limit on the tow force? You, by definition...

The weak link is designed to act as a fuse, breaking the circuit when overloaded. In an excessive out-of position situation, the weak link will snap before the control authority of the glider would be lost.

...HAVE control authority BEFORE the weak link snaps. And this guy's weak link didn't come anywhere close to snapping, right? So obviously he must've had TONS of control authority.

Heck, he might even have gotten his feet under him if necessary.

Like if a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place suddenly popped up in front of him.

But it probably wouldn't have been necessary.

Tell me when and why it should EVER be NECESSARY to get one's feet under oneself in an aerotowing environment.

Marc Fink - 2007/08/24 21:52:38 UTC

I've seen a jet plane fail to get off the ground on a hot and humid day--could density altitude have had anything to do with the meat grinding?

Yeah Marc. Alejandro probably hit a nasty pocket of high density altitude air at just the wrong moment. (Do try to avoid using terms that include words of more than one or two syllables.)

George Stebbins - 2007/08/24 22:58:40 UTC

Dustin, "Human asphalt sander". Funny. I like it. But I'll bet he doesn't like it any more than he likes how it felt...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC

Zach was conscious immediately after the accident but died in route to the hospital.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/25 02:24:44 UTC

582 / 914 = all the difference in the world.
It's a pointless discussion otherwise.

Any discussion in which you're involved and protected by a "moderator" is pointless.

That's what I'm getting at here... it's a 582 technique that works with 582s, but it's counter productive behind 914s.
This is one of those night and day things.

Yeah. I just can't imagine why u$hPa doesn't have two Aero Tow Special Skills signoffs AT-528 and AT-914.
Totally full o' shit.

George Stebbins - 2007/08/25 14:54:19 UTC

I'm confused.

Me too, George. I'm crystal clear on everything else he's posted so far in this thread but a bit fuzzy on the 582/914 thing.

WHAT is a 582 technique? Dropping the cart? Leaving the cart before it lifts? What?
And then when that's answered - Why?
Going flying now. Later.

Get fucked, George.

Marc Fink - 2007/08/25 20:43:43 UTC

I'm guessing its a 115 hp 800+ fpm climb rate thing vs. a 65 hp 200-300 fpm climb rate thing.

Get fucked, Marc.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/26 11:34:17 UTC

582 technique... let me explain
Yes, it's the accelleration. 115hp gets you flying much quicker.

- Does it get you flying much quicker in dead air than a 582 does with fifteen miles per hour coming straight down the runway?

- Are you using...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC

You will only ever need full throttle for the first fifty feet of a tandem tow. Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.

...115 horsepower?

Add to this the fact that it's a 4 stroke engine so it develops power imediately. A 582 has to spool up. It develops power much more gradually.

I'm calling this more total crap. Horsepower is horsepower and the towline doesn't give a flying fuck what's pulling its front end. And engines turning Dragonfly propellers approaching takeoff speed aren't SPOOLING anywhere.

That transitional time in the cart where the glider is flying, but just barely, gets extremely short behind a 914.

Yeah, that's probably because a four stroke develops power imediately while a 582 has to spool up.

Where as with a 582, it's a noticeable thing. With a 914, it's over in an instant.

Dickhead.

So waiting till you're lifting the cart, which can help behind a 582, can actually become a hindrance behind a 914.
See in the window for holding the cart "a few inches" becomes an instant... then you're in the 'radically cahnging your wingloading' arena.
You'd have to get a pretty knarly wind shift behind a 914 for it to matter... you're accellerating around twice as fast.

Sure we are. Around twice the towline tension.

I see people that are used to flying behind 582s breaking weaklinks behind 914s all the time.

Yeah, those 582 guys just don't start to understand 914 technique. Really slow learners too.

The worst are people that pull in a bit "for sufficient flying speed", then push out of the cart (that never goes well).

Yeah.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC

Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.

Yet people insist on doing it. Amazing people ever manage to get off the ground and survive more than a weekend or two repeatedly doing things that never go well. And it really makes ya wonder who's signing all these assholes off and running these AT operations.

Consider footlaunching for example.
Footlaunching has a much more distinct "akward"...

That keen intellect of yours just never ceases to amaze.

...time, where the glider is flying but not fully supporting your weight.
Behind a 582, you get to 'moon walk' a long time.

Just what I've always wanted to do - moonwalk for a long time behind a 582 and leave the cart to the assholes who have no appreciation for any of the finer things in life.

Behind a 914, as soon as you start to moon walk, I litterally yank you off the ground (I add power).

Enough to litterally yank you off the ground but not so much as to put your Rooney Link at risk of increasing the safety of the towing operation. It's a very fine balance act for which you develop a feel after many thousands of foot launch aerotows with a 914.

A 582 hasn't yet spoolled up enough to do this.

582's have notoriously mediocre spoolling mechanisms. They're OK enough on the spoolling down but leave much to be desired on the spoolling up.

Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney has found a word he can beat to death to make him sound like a really cool fighter jock. And he's talking to Davis Show douchebags so it really doesn't matter whether or not he can spell it properly.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/02/27 23:31:17 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

George Stebbins - 2007/08/26 14:46:50 UTC

I've flown in lots of comps behind every damn thing including the "turbo tug". Never had a problem if I wait until the wheels start to lift.

Oh. So it's just an airspeed thing. Like running down a dune on Day One, Flight One. And here I was thinking one needs to read fifty pages worth of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney blatherings about 582s, 914s, wingloading, single and three point bridles, going negative, weak link inconveniences... just to get an inkling of a feel for what's involved.

Maybe my reaction time is good?

No doubt...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9945
Launched unhooked

George Stebbins - 2007/10/26 16:05:20 UTC

The weak link is NOT there to prevent the glider from being overstressed on tow. OK, it serves that function too, but its main purpose is to release if you get too far off-line or some other issue causes the forces to become stronger than you, the pilot, can control. The forces become too strong for the pilot to overcome LONG BEFORE the glider gets overstressed. Does the weak link always do its job? Nope. On the other hand, making it too weak is a danger too. The key is to minimize risks. A reasonable weak link does that. It will seldom (but not never) break when it shouldn't. It will usually (but not always) break when it should. Different forms of towing use different strengths. And tandems need stronger ones regardless, because the tow forces are higher.

There are some folks who tow with very strong weak links. They are asking for trouble, IMO.

...vastly superior to all of us muppets who drop carts as we're flying into 914 propwash.

Maybe I'm anticipating and can feel it start before it happens.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12512
Weak Links

George Stebbins - 2008/07/13 21:01:44 UTC

I usually wrap the link around the ring/rope twice, making sure that the knot is at the "low pull" location. Billo has done that in the photo he provided, but it appears to have only one wrap. With two, the strain on the knot is so low that I've never had my link break at the knot. (I don't get many breaks anyway, but none have been at the knot.) Perhaps this violates the idea, to have the link be weaker than doubled line? I don't know. I've had enough links break when they should to think mine is ok, but then, I have never done any real tests. I've always been happy with the Quest-Air links, and only once did one break when it annoyed me seriously, and for no apparent reason. (Just as I crossed the treeline. I had to whip a 180 before I ran out of altitude to do so. Then I had an interesting landing, not really having room to turn back into the wind...) I HAVE had links break when I got off-line or too high. Almost always as I was reaching for or had just grabbed the release. They are breaking just as I decide it is getting unsafe. But I sure don't want to count on that! [EDIT: I just realized that they are probably breaking because I pull the release. If the strain is just short of breaking strength, pulling the barrel could break it before the barrel pulls back.]

BTW, most of my breaks are at the end farthest from the knot, where the link rubs on the release pin. (Pro tow.) I assume that's because the release pin has a small radius.

Thanks Billo, for the tests.

(I'm not that knowledgeable about weak links, I mostly just trust Quest on this, and use their links when possible, and Hungary Joe's when not. I think his are the same as theirs.)

Moron.

Who knows.

Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney - if anyone. Failing that Davis Dead-On Straub or...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

...a few of his other pro toad friends.

All I know is that I've seen far more people crash and almost crash from coming off too early than from coming off too late.

Ya know, George... I'm sure I've been around aerotow a hundred times the launches you have and the launch related crashes I've seen are nonexistent - save for the ones caused solely by Rooney Link increases in the safety of the towing operation. If you're seeing anything else it's 'cause the Davis crowd dickheads are sucking in hundreds of people from around the planet for their pecker measuring contests who are totally clueless about tow launches.

Within reason, of course!!!

Oh. You're gonna introduce REASON to the discussion?

And a few from letting go of only one side.

Like?:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/meaneyman/35642942/

http://ozreport.com/9.177
Another bad launch off the cart

Davis Straub - 2005/08/28

Notice the pilot is not holding onto the orange handles in these photos.

Any thoughts on why Davis Dead-On Straub is incapable of recognizing the differences between zero, one, two? Think it's related to him thinking that a bridle which splits the tension between the pilot and glider is a...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Davis Straub - 2013/02/12 20:01:14 UTC

There is very little danger of pulling in too far on the pro tow release. And on the 3 point releases...

...three point? Number of "e"s in...

...the problem is not that the pilot pulls in too far, but rather that the glider is pulled down as the carabineer rises up the V-bridle.

...CARABINER?

Early, late, all the same here.

Not really. In early the weak link is the RESULT of the crash. In late it's the CAUSE of it.

Bad juju. Don't do that.

Bullshit.

Oh, and thanks for the clarification. I thought that was what you meant, but wasn't sure. Always good to know what the other guy is actually saying before replying, eh?

Even better to know WHY he's saying what he is and what he's very conspicuously NOT saying.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/26 17:12:01 UTC
Maybe my reaction time is good?
Yup.

Yup. Fer sure. So much of this game is reaction time.

I actually see more bad launches due to leaving late than early, but then I do more towing with 914s than 582s, so naturally I'll see more of the 914 type errors.

Translation... Rooney Links can't survive safer accelerations and tow tensions.

In fact, when prepping someone that's used to a 914 for a tow behind a 582, I have to drive home the point of staying on the cart...

Since most Flight Park Mafia students have very difficult times grasping the concept of AIRSPEED.

...that they'll feel like they're rolling forever, but that's ok.

And they also expect to use up the same length of runway for final and landing regardless of whether they've got a ten mile per hour headwind or dead air.

Always good to know what the other guy is actually saying before replying, eh?
Hahahahaha... how true!
(and how often we (esp me!) miss that)

Cheers
Jim

Go fuck yourself. Ditto for anyone and everyone on speaking terms with you.

Bernard Winnkelmann - 2007/08/27 14:20:09 UTC

I think I would rather come off late and break a weak link than come off early and be a human asphalt grinder.

How can you POSSIBLY have anything BAD happen as a result of...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

...the focal point of your safe towing system working - as it's been carefully designed to? Name something in hang gliding more dangerous and horrifying than...

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

...climbing out away from the asphalt.

I have had a weaklink break right as I came off the cart (it was my fault... the weaklink was used 10 times and I knew it would break...

I should probably try that. I'm pretty burned out on always wondering whether or not it will break.

I figured one more tow would be ok).

- So did Zack Marzec. 'Cept he didn't count on that one more tow being the last shot he'd ever have.

- Well see where it got ya? Weak links can only function properly in accordance with their design parameters up to five tows. After that, while they'll still easily meet your expectation of breaking as early as possible in the lockout situation, they almost certainly won't meet with your expectation of being strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence.

I came off a little later and had plenty of height (after popping up) to land safely.

So then what's your problem? It increased the safety of the towing operation for the price of a bit of inconvenience.

Bart Doets - 2007/08/29 19:59:46 UTC

I found this shot from the Worlds on:
http://brasilnomundial.blogspot.com/
Brasil no Mundial de Vôo Livre 2007

http://bp2.blogger.com/_yJBZvU7h1yw/RsPTy2WetrI/AAAAAAAAApo/17o5YVZyQMw/s1600/DSCN0441A.jpg

I think this guy was almost a human asphalt sander... look at the AOA, he is just barely flying...

Fuck! Very slow, very high angle of attack! EXTREMELY dangerous. Why isn't his weak link very clearly providing him protection from that for this form of towing? Looks like he's trying to make more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow. Bet the stupid shit's using a Tad-O-Link. Hope he gets what's coming to him so Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney can visit him in the hospital where only then will he begin to hear what he's been told all along.

Gerry Grossnegger - 2007/08/29 21:41:26 UTC

Why are most launch dolly cradles shaped like "A", when they should be like "B"?

I dunno, Gerry... Why do virtually all barrel releases incorporate a bent parachute pin as its core component?

What, are the makers afraid that the dolly will get stuck on the glider, that the control bar won't come UP out of the notches if they're too deep? Yeah, right.

Tow force vs. rolling resistance can pull you right off the "A" cradles before you're flying, especially on long grass or even slightly rough ground.

Well fuck, we're supposed to do all of our landings in waist high wheat and narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place. Why shouldn't we be taking off from the same sorts of environments?

Is it better to get yanked forwards out of the dolly before you're flying and eat pavement if the dolly hits a divot or something that holds it back...

Or tries to launch at Florida Ridge.

...instead of just getting a little yank on the pilot or breaking the weak link while you're rolling safely along on those nice big wheels?

Hell Gerry... How's a weak link supposed to do its job of increasing the safety of the towing operation if it works while you're rolling safely along on those nice big girlie wheels?

Bumps can pop you up above the dolly before you're up to flying speed, and then there's even less holding you back. The notches should be real deep if the dolly is EVER going to be used on anything but GOOD pavement or golf greens.

Golf greens? You mean the surfaces faggots use for their landings?

With "B" cradles you should still probably hold on to the handles so that it's your choice when to release those extra pounds of dolly ballast, but you don't really have to. When you fly, you fly up out of the notches. Forgetting to hold on to the handles is suddenly just an embarassing point of style, instead of potentially fatal.

Good job, Gerry. Let's get all those potentially fatal issues of aerotowing identified and dealt with. I can't think of a better place to start than basetube bracket notches - seeing as how all our releases, bridles, weak links all have extremely long track records.

Bernard Winnkelmann - 2007/08/29 22:25:23 UTC

Actually, B cradles would be really really bad. The A cradles are bad enough.

I have had it happen to me 3 times. Each time it was because my tail was too high (set for WW and not Moyes). The tow forces pull you, that pulls your hang strap, that pulls your glider DOWN and forward.

Oh really? So you're saying that the tow tension is being routed through the pilot attachment such that it ends up at about the same place the top end of the bridle connects? Has anybody informed Donnell Hewett of this perspective on the issue?

The little turbulator ridges on the front of my carbon base bar hook into the current carts. They hook in enough that the glider will actually pick up the cart without holding onto the handles.

I am afraid that the B cradles would cause a lot more trouble than A.

Probably not if you surfaced the contact area with a hard plastic.

The picture above is Seppi Salvenmoser. I am guessing he pushed out to get off the cart too early. I doubt he "slipped" off the front of the cart.

Good thing the meet heads have an ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT for the weak link, ain't it?

Gerry Grossnegger - 2007/08/29 23:20:27 UTC
Each time it was because my tail was too high...
So, one problem, causing another? Better to blame the first problem.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/06 18:14:30 UTC

All the more reason to use a WEAKER weaklink. If you're bending pins rather than breaking the weaklink, I have to think your weaklink is too strong (and now the pin has become the weakest link in the system

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use 2 hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

Besides, even if the cart came a few inches off the ground, that's not a problem. It's certainly not going to be held up by little ridges for more than a second, if that.

01-001

07-300

10-307

15-413

I am guessing... I doubt...
We don't know what Seppi did, so there's no sense in using it as a supporting argument for or against anything.

Fuck no. He might have gotten himself into that situation by trying to launch at Mach 5 for all we know. And it would be totally moronic to start thinking about most likely, known, common, actual scenarios, 'cause that would be SPECULATING, or hypothetical scenarios, 'cause that would involve THINKING.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/02/28 15:10:27 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Bill Jacques - 2007/08/29 23:36:20 UTC

"Real" pilots don't use a launch dolly at all.

Or:
- hook-in checks
- wheels or skids on the glider
- releases:
-- designed for towing something
-- that will work under load
-- they have snowballs' chances in hell of using when they need to
-- to very clearly provide protection from high bank turns, lockouts for that form of towing
- a third tow point on the keel - in addition to the one on the pilot
- weak links:
-- to protect their aircraft against overloading
-- varying in capacities proportional to glider capacities or flying weights
-- on BOTH ends of a bridle
-- less than four times the lengths they should be
- bridles not optimized to tie themselves to tow rings
- the hook knives they all carry for emergency backup releases
- any equipment with a short track record
- safety committees to shut things down BEFORE devastating crashes
- grade school level arithmetic
- fatality statistics to identify and fix actual problems
- speculation:
-- when Flight Park Mafia operators are in permanent lockdown or disinformation modes
-- to arrive at inescapable, obvious, common sense conclusions
- their:
-- eyes to confirm that pro toads are skimming with the bar fully stuffed while waiting for the tug to lift off
-- brains for anything other than as crush zones to supplement what their helmets are doing

They run as the tug accelerates and "lean" into it.

With their wings locked as level and their noses pitched even more ideally than they would be on the cart.

That way, "A" or "B"... who cares? String or Hose... who cares?

And they run so fast that they almost always pass the carts taking off from the parallel lanes.

Seriously. just don't trip,

Well, if you trip it's not that big of a fuckin' deal. Just remember to let go of the control tubes before the nose plants and actuates your 130 pound Greenspot emergency release just before your head slams into the keel.

(BTW.. why isn't there a "special skill" indicator on the card for standing aerotow launch? "SA")

They used to have one but the people who earned it were so few and died so quickly that they decided it wasn't really worth it. So they changed the A to an L and created the Spot Landing special skill. It's a prerequisite to the XC special skill 'cause you need that proficiency in order to be able to safely land in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place in thermal conditions.

Mark G. Forbes - 2007/08/30 07:56:56 UTC

Dustin showed me this technique one day out at Turf Soaring in Phoenix.

You should repay him the kindness by showing him how to use the shift keys.
Speaking of Phoenix... Mark Knight's still dead after doing and having absolutely nothing going wrong - same as Keavy Nenninger - right?

He was using a pro-tow (shoulders...

Two shoulders. That's why it's also called a two or single point bridle.

...only) bridle, I had a conventional Wallaby-style setup...

Joe Gregor - 2004/09

The weak link broke after the glider entered a lockout attitude. Once free, the glider was reportedly too low (50-65 feet AGL, estimated) to recover from the unusual attitude and impacted the ground in a steep dive. The pilot suffered fatal injuries due to blunt trauma. There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.

...with a forward attachment point on my Spectrum to reduce the bar pressure.

And DO make sure not to acknowledge Tommy's post about bar POSITION.

It looked so easy when he did it.

Making the easy reach to your Wallaby-style tow release looks so easy whenever some asshole does it at wave-off at two thousand feet in smooth air.

When it was my turn, it started out ok but the speed quickly built up and the glider would just NOT fly. In desperation as I was about to do the asphalt-grinder dance...

What? You thought you could fix a bad thing and didn't wanna make the easy reach to your Wallaby-style set-up and start over?

I pushed out hard to try to pop the weaklink and at least come down on the wheels and my harness.

The Voight/Rooney Instant Hands Free Release? Are you sure you were pushing out hard enough?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/10 13:36:53 UTC

I still dont know if I buy into the stronger weak link hypothesis.

Ive broken weak links on purpose at altitude by banking up and pushing out abruptly. That is a mechanism I want to keep, not give up.

The downside is, you will get more weak link breaks while near the ground, early in a tow, or whatever.
BUT... you should be maintaining proper airspeed anyway, then its not an issue.

Saying there is a problem with weak links being too weak, and breaking near the ground, leaving you in a near stall, is sorta like saying there is a problem foot launching slow off a mountain with your nose too high. Well DUH.
Both of these are preventable and up to you to prevent.

That said, I am not confident that I am right. Id love to see ONE tow park switch systems for a year or longer, and compare tow incidents before and after. Its the only way to really test which way is better IMO.

Or were you using a Tad-O-Link?

And flew away.

More of that crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

Of course. The forward attachment point makes the glider want to trim faster under tow, at about 30mph. I can't run that fast.

So you're saying you can't run as fast as a cart can roll? Go figure.

I *have* to push out to lift off, until the glider has accelerated to full speed and reaches normal-on-tow trim. Once I realized that, I found it very easy to foot launch behind the tug.

Great! I think we should ALL ditch the cart and push out to get airborne a couple seconds after the tug has started moving and long before the glider has accelerated to full speed. Once we've got the glider airborne it's a very simple matter to get the glider accelerated to full speed and reach normal-on-tow trim - which is a bit higher than full speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM

MUCH simpler/safer.

We were doing this, instead of using a cart, because we were operating off of an active sailplane runway, and we didn't have a launch assistant handy to retrieve the cart after takeoff.

Fewer cooks. Also simpler/safer/cheaper. Win/Win/Win.

We couldn't leave it in the middle of the runway while on tow, so a "no debris" takeoff was needed.

That sounds like a really excellent way to keep the runway free of debris in the long run.

01-0522

06-0818

10-1003

13-1702

14-1728

Mark G. Forbes
USHPA Regional Director--Region 1 (OR/WA/AK)

Total fucking douchebag.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/02/28 19:28:16 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/30 10:26:08 UTC

At hiihgland aerosports...

Oh c'mon, Jim. You can butcher the name of the flight park that taught you everything you know about hang gliding a lot better if you'd just put a little effort into the job.

...we actually use the reverse of that 'B' cradle.

And you turn your carabiners around backwards when you use them as upper point bridle anchors to keep the tow pressure transmitted by your Rooney Links from blowing the gates open from the inside.

The font is rounded to a smooth incline... works very well.

What font are you using over there at Hiih Gland Aerosports? Helvetica?

Yes, the concern is "sticking" in the cart too long.

And then ya come out at Mach 5 with a dramatic change in wingloading and slam into the 914 propwash such that your Rooney Link increases the safety of the towing operation. The results are never pretty.

Everyone has thier 582 "asphalt grinder" horror story to tell...

Yes, EVERYBODY. We've ALL blown dolly launches. Behind 582s. On asphalt. Never the grass we actually use. And lived to tell our horror stories. Without ever being beaten enough to ever feel the need to submit an accident report, post anything on a forum, upload a video. Talk about your debris on the runway.

...but they all start the same way... "I was towing behind a 582

- Oh. So all 582 "asphalt grinder" horror stories involve towing behind 582s? Zero 582 "asphalt grinder" horror stories behind 914s? Who'da thunk.

- So you're saying that more powerful engines make for safer tows? But we don't want them too safe so we use Rooney Links which go left and right at full throttle. 'Cause actually it's a crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow and crashing into asphalt minus wheels.

Yes, you can leave the cart too early, even behind a 914 (you just have to try harder), but guess what?

I guess we'll have to. Nothing's coming to us with respect to what was covered during our AT training and certification.

You can leave late too.

Just like you can run too fast on a shallow mountain launch slope. People look at you and say, "Look at that guy! He's running WAY too fast on that shallow mountain launch slope! He should've taken three steps, jumped into his harness, and started flying that thing! What an asshole!"

Huge problem in platform towing as well.

Not to mention carrier launches. "Damn that F18 was going fast when he blasted off the deck! Better ease up on the headway, back off on the catapult, tell the guys not to go totally nuts with the afterburners."

Rooney based hang glider aerotowing... The only flavor of aviation ever known to mankind in which extra speed on takeoff can be a bad thing.

And more often than not, people used to 582s that get behind 914s do so...

Can you name some of these people or quote them discussing this problem and the incidents that have ensued?

...then they break weaklinks at 5 feet off the ground...

- ALWAYS at 5 feet off the ground. Never at six, twenty, two hundred, three, the instant the cart starts rolling...

- Five feet off the ground...

-- Not just as they're coming off the cart and slamming into 914 propwash.

-- Doesn't sound like they're rocketing up and nosing the tug into the runway before it can get off the ground, does it?

Bill Jacques - 2007/08/24 13:00:55 UTC

Immediately after I lift off, I adjust to about 6 - 10 ft off the ground and wait for the tug. And I hold it there until you lift up. Then I follow the tug (wing to wheel level) up, right?

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 13:49:10 UTC

Exactly.
It's the textbook answer, and it works.

- Not even up to the bottom of the textbook range.

Just 'cause they're lifting off with the crisp airspeed the 914 is able to generate without having to eat up a mile of runway and their Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey optimal one-size-fits-all weak links always vaporize when everything else is going perfectly.

...because they fail to adjust thier techniques to match the launch conditions.

From some fucking douchebag who's incapable of writing at a third grade competence level.

So Jim... How come Russell Brown...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).

...(tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) had everybody double up the Rooney Links when he couldn't get any gliders airborne at Zapata? Why didn't he just have all the pilots adjust thier techniques to match the launch conditions?

The regularity of this is saddening.

It just makes me shake my head.

So what you're actually saying is...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.

BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

...that all you Dragonfly dickheads really suck at doing your stupid jobs as Pilots In Command of us muppets and our gliders. Thanks for clarifying that for us.

After the first couple weaklinks, they ask what's up (most often in the form of "can we tow slower?"... or my personal favorite "Why can't I use two weaklinks?")...

That's one of MY personal favorites TOO! Cracks me up every time I hear it!

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

And I've heard it a million times before. Just from comp pilots - who are even more clueless than weekender muppets. Go figure.

So is that two weak links on one end of the bridle or one at each end of the bridle? No, wait...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release

Juan Saa - 2012/10/18 01:19:49 UTC
Boca Raton

The normal braking force in pounds for a weak link is around 180, at least that is the regular weak link line used at most aerotow operations. By adding a second weak link to your bridal you are cutting the load on each link by half, meaning that the weak link will not break at the intended 180 pounds but it will need about 360.
If that is what you use and is what your instructor approved then I have no business on interfering, i dont know if you are using the same weak link material but there shoul be only ONE weak link on a tow bridle for it to be effective in breaking before higher loads are put into you and the glider should the glider gets to an attitude or off track so much that the safety fuse of the link is needed to break you free from the tug.

I made the same mistake on putting two weak links thinking that I was adding protection to my setup and I was corrected by two instructors on separate occacions at Quest Air and at the Florida RIdge.

It doesn't matter.

...when I explain to them that taking the cart into the air with them might be counterproductive...

And your point is that using a double weak link is the same thing as taking a cart into the air with one? Or that using a double weak link will force one to take the cart into the air with him? Or that the only reason one would have for using a double weak link would be to enable one to take the cart into the air with him?

...that towing behind a 914 isn't the same as a 582... Then, amazingly, they stop breaking weaklinks.

Yeah...

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

Right.

Here's something I don't understand though...

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Quest Air Aerotow FAQ

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air.

These weak links are obviously breaking as the pressure of the towline is reaching a level that will compromise the handling of the glider. And rough air obviously isn't an issue 'cause you've said NOTHING about rough air. We all know that our Pilot In Command can and will...

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

...fix whatever's going on back there by giving us the rope. So how come we totally NEVER hear about anyone being given the rope in these situations?

The glider's in position waiting for the glider to lift off, in good air that's not so much as slightly wobbling it, doing fine, in no danger whatsoever, tug driver perfectly happy. Quest is Bobby Bailey's operation and he's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit. Quest defines the weak link sweet spot as weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. So how is it possible to conclude that the Rooney Link isn't WAY the fuck sub adequate even for the two hundred pound gliders for which it's optimized?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC

It was already worked out by the time I arrived.
The reason it sticks?
Trail and error.

No. It was very obviously NOT worked out before you arrived. All error...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

...and no trail. And it's not gonna stick beyond early 2013.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

The accepted standards and practices changed.

The accepted standards and practices are gonna change to bring the weak link way the fuck up towards Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey's sweet spot - just a wee bit too late to keep your idiot pro toad buddy from being fatally inconvenienced after flying into a bit of rough air - when the decisions of both of the professional pilots involved was to continue the tow.

Let's take another look at this crap:

Yes, you can leave the cart too early, even behind a 914 (you just have to try harder), but guess what? You can leave late too. And more often than not, people used to 582s that get behind 914s do so, then they break weaklinks at 5 feet off the ground because they fail to adjust thier techniques to match the launch conditions. The regularity of this is saddening.

After the first couple weaklinks, they ask what's up (most often in the form of "can we tow slower?"... or my personal favorite "Why can't I use two weaklinks?") when I explain to them that taking the cart into the air with them might be counterproductive... that towing behind a 914 isn't the same as a 582... Then, amazingly, they stop breaking weaklinks.

Right.

- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney keeps careful logs of everybody and everything he tows and all relevant issues. Documents pilot, rating, special skills, airtime, AT experience, tugs flown behind, hook-in weight, glider model and size, VG setting, bridle - one or two point, release type, Rooney Link condition, temperature, relative humidity, wind direction and strength, turbulence severity in the kill zone.

- Then he crunches his database in the computer to reveal obvious patterns that can be used to identify the issues relevant to weak link inconveniences and tell all us stupid muppets what we're doing wrong - but is massively vague with respect to telling us what we need to be doing to get things right.

Everybody and his fuckin' dog in the half a brain or better range knows that standard aerotow weak links go off like popcorn pretty much at random 'cept for very light gliders in sled conditions. And if there's a molecules worth of sincerity in the crap this deranged moronic Ponzi schemer is spewing it works like this...

- A glider behind Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's (Hiih Gland Aerosports') 914 Dragonfly - which he uses to compensate for his minuscule penis size - does everything perfectly.

- All Rooney Link pops which occur prior to or after five feet are tossed out of Rooney's mental database because they're all glaring confirmations that Rooney Links are a third the strength they need to be in order to get gliders reliably up to release altitude in soaring conditions.

- ONLY Rooney Link pops at five feet are mentally recorded because obviously they're popping because the pilots are 582 muppets dragging carts into the air at Mach five, dropping them and causing dramatic wingloading changes which rocket them up and slam them into the 914 propwash which always times itself to perfectly synchronize with the Mach 5 takeoff without regard to any other factors which determine cart exit timing (glider performance, loading, stall speed, density altitude, wind strength and direction...).

Yeah. Using the Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney scientific method you can correlate Rooney Link popping glider sail colors, spot landing proficiency, moon phases, sunspots, horoscopes, prayer, anything ya fuckin' feel like.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/02/28 22:50:59 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/30 10:26:08 UTC

Read Davis's latest towing storry (cowboy up)...

Yeah...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTC

Now I don't give a shit about breaking strength anymore. I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while.

...582 at high altitude.

Let's do that.

http://ozreport.com/11.171
2007/08/30 02:03:01 UTC - Flying in Alpine, WY
2007/08/30 02:06:50 UTC - Aerotowing behind Cowboy Up

The special conditions at Alpine (Cowboy Up s operation at Alpine, WY)

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

You'll find a long conversation about aerotowing and leaving the cart (and carts in general) at the URL above. I'll add a bit to that conversation here. I'm sure that I've written about this subject before from my previous experiences here at Cowboy Up, but I thought I was expand a bit on the earlier discussion.

Cowboy Up offers aerotowing at Alpine, Wyoming. It is on a dry lake bed at 5,500' AGL. The air temperatures is in the upper eighties. Tiki is piloting a 583 powered Dragonfly. The lake bed is not rolled, but is rough. The cart has slick plastic cradles with a line below the control frame for you to hang on to. The cradles move easily from side to side.

This is the most difficult aerotowing I do. Most of my aerotowing takes place in low elevation with thick air. The air is quite thin here, it feels different, and it feels especially different on the cart. You've got to hold on a lot longer before you are at a safe flying speed. A lot longer.

You also have to hold on a lot longer because you are towing behind a 583 and they take a long time to accelerate. I tow mostly behind 912 or 914's and these monsters jerk you right out of the cart and into the air. Not so here. I was towing at Cloud 9 a lot before I came here, and their monster Dragonfly would drag you up at 1,000 fpm +.

I am used to towing behind 583's, for example behind Bobby Bailey, but not 583's at 5,500'AGL, except when I come here. Frankly the climb rate is exceptionally slow and it takes a long time for the Dragonfly to get off the ground.

On my first tow today, I hung on to the cart for about twice or three times longer then I had been used to recently. I also resisted the cart to keep myself back a bit while I usually let the tug pull me through a bit to get at the proper angle of attack. This was Bart's request and given the circumstances (bumpy runway, slick cradles), I wanted to be sure to stay with and on the cart and not get pulled forward too much.

I hung on until I had plenty of airspeed and came off the cart climbing about six feet. This appeared unusually to Tiki as she is used to seeing folks come up just barely off the cart at a foot or two and she pulled back on the stick to bring the tug up a bit and get it off the ground as she thought I was rocketing to the moon.

I immediately felt the tug slow down as I flew at six feet off the ground and thought, oh well, what can I do now. Then instantly the rope got tight again and we proceeded without incident.

On the next tow, after I spoke with Tiki assuring her that I knew better than to get too high behind the tug, I made sure to hold on much longer. In fact I held on so long that I took the cart up with me before I let go. Now they have a rope on this cart, but I checked it to be sure that it couldn't wrap around my base tube. I adjusted the rope tightness (easy to do by rotating one end of the rope), so that the rope was touching the bottom of the base tube as I held it. Even if the rope was completely slack as long as I had two hands on it widely spaced it wouldn't catch the base tube.

Still, as I have pointed out, the oranges hoses are better and Bart is considering putting them on this cart. The rope is fine, the hoses, better.

I pulled the cart off the ground and stuffed the bar. I had to have the bar all the way back even though I had half VG on, to stay down with the tug, Still I was above it for the first ten or fifteen seconds, with the bar stuffed, as I said. This is easy to do with a Wills Wing Sport 2, but may be a bit more problematic with a topless glider.

It takes Tiki a long time to climb out (relative to what I experienced in Michigan) at this high altitude and with this low power tug. You can't have everything and if you adjust your expectations and your practices, it is just fine.

On my second and third tow the wind was a side wind and the wing on the upwind side lifted a bit as it had plenty of time while I was on the cart before I had enough speed to fly away. But I just held on tight (much tighter than normally) and made sure I didn't get off the cart until I was flying. It came with me a bit on the third tow also.

So aerotowing is not the same every where. I have to readjust my procedures and expectations and "feel" when I'm presented with radically new circumstances.

2007/08/30 02:06:50 UTC - Aerotowing behind Cowboy Up

The special conditions at Alpine (Cowboy Up s operation at Alpine, WY)

Good job, Davis. Ya got a whole six words into the entry before fucking something up.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

You'll find a long conversation about aerotowing and leaving the cart (and carts in general) at the URL above.

And you'll find a much longer conversation about the conversation over here from someone with a functional brain and a deep hatred for all you fucking lying incompetent douchebags.

I'll add a bit to that conversation here.

Go for it. I've got ya covered.

I'm sure that I've written about this subject before from my previous experiences here at Cowboy Up, but I thought I was expand a bit on the earlier discussion.

Keep up the great work.

Cowboy Up offers aerotowing at Alpine, Wyoming. It is on a dry lake bed at 5,500' AGL.

Wow. A dry lake bed at 5500' AGL. Must be quite the tourist attraction.

The air temperatures is in the upper eighties.

That's the afternoon, right? What is the temperatures at night?

Tiki is piloting a 583 powered Dragonfly.

Is that anything like the 582s Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is blathering on about in the referenced discussion?

The lake bed is not rolled, but is rough.

Oh. It's rough despite all that not rolling they're doing?

The cart has slick plastic cradles with a line below the control frame for you to hang on to.

Cool.

http://ozreport.com/9.074
It was Ricky Duncan

Davis Straub - 2005/04/05
Paul Voight - 2005/04/05

Several years ago we had a dolly-connected-to-cart incident of the worst kind in New York, where an Atos pilot passed his vario safety lanyard around the cart rope. He installed his vario after his glider was in the cart. He had a vicious nose over at launch speed, which broke his neck among other things. He lived at a hospital for many months, but ultimately died due to the incident. No portion of glider assembly/preparation should be done on the cart.

So two years and four months ago we get to hear about the most horrible AT fatality in the history of the sport...
- that wouldn't have happened with the stub hold-downs
- idiot fucking Paul Voight tells us to solve the problem by not doing any portion of glider assembly/preparation on the cart
-- (and doesn't bother dignifying this guy with a name)
- and idiot fucking Bart and Tiki are STILL using continuous hold-downs on their carts.
So where are they making the lower bridle connection? To the basetube?

The cradles move easily from side to side.

Oh good. That'll make it easier to put the gliders on the carts with the neck breaking hold-downs.

This is the most difficult aerotowing I do.

- It's a good thing you're very experienced and skilled and have been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

- So I guess you're using an extra safe weak link, right?

Most of my aerotowing takes place in low elevation with thick air.

- With really thick tow operators.
- What? There aren't any 5500' AGL runways in Florida, Texas, Maryland, Michigan, Australia?

The air is quite thin here, it feels different, and it feels especially different on the cart.

What is it? Kinda wet, oily, rubbery, abrasive? Especially on the cart?

You've got to hold on a lot longer before you are at a safe flying speed. A lot longer.

Duh. And that's because it FEELS different.

You also have to hold on a lot longer because you are towing behind a 583 and they take a long time to accelerate.

So you're saying power is a GOOD thing? Would that continue to be true AFTER you leave the cart as well?

I tow mostly behind 912 or 914's and these monsters jerk you right out of the cart and into the air.

Sounds dangerous. Why don't they just use 583s?

Not so here. I was towing at Cloud 9 a lot before I came here, and their monster Dragonfly would drag you up at 1,000 fpm +.

Jesus! I sure hope you're using a Davis Link which will very clearly provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for that form of towing.

I am used to towing behind 583's...

You're the only "person" used to towing behind 583s.

...for example behind Bobby Bailey...

He's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit!

...but not 583's at 5,500'AGL...

Fuck no. 5500 feet AGL at Alpine is over 11K MSL. And that's just the takeoff. By the time you get to release altitude you'll need oxygen to maintain any hope of having your brain continue to function rationally.

...except when I come here. Frankly the climb rate is exceptionally slow and it takes a long time for the Dragonfly to get off the ground.

Must be loads o' fun on their tandems.

On my first tow today, I hung on to the cart for about twice or three times longer then I had been used to recently.

- Than what happened?

- Wow. That must've taken amazing levels of skill and judgment. I'd have just looked at my watch and pushed out at the point I always do when I'm launching at Ridgely at 64' AGL.

I also resisted the cart to keep myself back a bit while I usually let the tug pull me through a bit to get at the proper angle of attack.

So you're flying pro toad...

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7321/8745745209_f8c0238de2_o.jpg

...right?

This was Bart's request and given the circumstances (bumpy runway, slick cradles), I wanted to be sure to stay with and on the cart and not get pulled forward too much.

Just loop the hold-down line over your speedbar and use your vario safety lanyard to make sure it doesn't come off.

I hung on until I had plenty of airspeed and came off the cart climbing about six feet. This appeared unusually to Tiki...

This appeared unusually WHAT to Tiki?

...as she is used to seeing folks come up just barely off the cart at a foot or two...

Yeah, seeing somebody climb about six feet would really freak me out too if I were used to seeing folk come up just barely off the cart at a foot or two.

...and she pulled back on the stick to bring the tug up a bit and get it off the ground...

Really great response. Hard to ever go wrong forcing your plane off the runway prematurely when you think you have a situation developing behind you.

...as she thought I was rocketing to the moon.

Oh. She's capable of THINKING?

I immediately felt the tug slow down...

How? Did you immediately feel your glider slow down too?

...as I flew at six feet off the ground and thought, oh well, what can I do now.

Release? Pitch out abruptly and use your Davis Link as an instant hands free release?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34041
Cart dynamics

Nate Wreyford - 2016/02/08 22:32:30 UTC

With such an awesome resource like Bart and Tiki (in addition to other instructors and advanced pilots in Wharton), why go to some place with so much noise and so little signal when looking for answers?

Hope for Tiki to fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope? Pray for the Dragonfly's tow mast breakaway protector to increase the safety of the towing operation?

Then instantly the rope got tight again and we proceeded without incident.

You wouldn't have had an INCIDENT if the rope hadn't gotten tight again. Just an...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

...INCONVENIENCE. And that would've made you HAPPY.

On the next tow, after I spoke with Tiki assuring her that I knew better than to get too high behind the tug...

Well yeah. You've been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

I made sure to hold on much longer. In fact I held on so long that I took the cart up with me before I let go.

That's OK. 583 propwash won't make your Davis Link function to increase the safety of the towing operation?

Now they have a rope on this cart, but I checked it to be sure that it couldn't wrap around my base tube.

Idiot. Didn't you just hear Paul Voight tell you to do no portion of glider assembly/preparation on the cart?

I adjusted the rope tightness (easy to do by rotating one end of the rope), so that the rope was touching the bottom of the base tube as I held it. Even if the rope was completely slack as long as I had two hands on it widely spaced it wouldn't catch the base tube.

Yeah, that's a really good workaround to address a known lethal defect in cart design. Brings to mind:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction

Diev Hart - 2011/07/14 17:19:12 UTC

I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now.

Still, as I have pointed out, the oranges hoses are better and Bart is considering putting them on this cart.

Before or after the next guy gets quaffed or killed?

The rope is fine, the hoses, better.

Yeah, the rope's fine. So was Robin Strid's spinnaker shackle release...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318769461/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318781297/

...before it killed him. And then after it had been banned for a short while from the Worlds at Hay...

http://ozreport.com/9.009
2005 Worlds

Davis Straub - 2005/01/11

This type of release mechanism has been banned (at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay.

...it was fine again.

I pulled the cart off the ground and stuffed the bar. I had to have the bar all the way back even though I had half VG on, to stay down with the tug,

Like this?:

03114
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3728/9655895292_f4f808fb0e_o.png

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/14097626583_03972773c6_o.png
03-02421

Still I was above it for the first ten or fifteen seconds, with the bar stuffed, as I said.

- Oh. So you made a normal airspeed takeoff behind an underpowered tug at high density altitude and you were unable to hold your glider down even to tug level as it was getting airborne for ten or fifteen seconds.

- And notice the way Davis is conspicuously not telling us that he's flying pro toad?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22233
Looking for pro-tow release

Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 12:31:33 UTC

Well, that may be his opinion, but it is nothing more than that. Protow requires more experience and skill and you certainly wouldn't use it as the first method for a new aerotow pilots but is not less safe (nothing in hang gliding is safe) than the two point method.

He CAN'T because that would undermine his position that there are no dangerous downsides to pro toad.

Zack C - 2011/06/16 03:14:35 UTC

I've never aerotowed pilot-only, but it is my understanding that this configuration pulls the pilot forward significantly, limiting the amount he can pull in further.

Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 05:11:44 UTC

Incorrect understanding.

Lying goddam piece o' shit.

This is easy to do with a Wills Wing Sport 2...

What's easy to do? Not be able to get your glider down to tug level for ten or fifteen seconds off of takeoff in dead air?

...but may be a bit more problematic with a topless glider.

Right, Davis. It's gonna be HARDER to get a faster cleaner wing down than it will be for a mushy intermediate glider. That's why the Sport 2 is the Number One choice for aerobatic competitions.

It takes Tiki a long time to climb out (relative to what I experienced in Michigan)...

Must be a real bitch hanging out up there with the bar stuffed waiting for her.

...at this high altitude and with this low power tug. You can't have everything and if you adjust your expectations and your practices, it is just fine.

Yeah...

- Like if Zack Marzec had adjusted his expectations and practices more in keeping with his Davis Link being strong and reliable enough to better avoid frequent breaks from turbulence he'd have been JUST FINE.

- And because you got three whole problematic launches in smooth air without piling in at this shoddy incompetent operation it's obvious that everybody who ever comes there will also always be JUST FINE.

On my second and third tow the wind was a side wind...

What many of us would refer to as a "crosswind".

...and the wing on the upwind side lifted a bit as it had plenty of time while I was on the cart before I had enough speed to fly away.

But don't worry, people of varying ages. Davis has certified Cowboy Up as crash-proof.

But I just held on tight (much tighter than normally) and made sure I didn't get off the cart until I was flying.

Pure genius.

It came with me a bit on the third tow also.

And I'll bet the crosswind made it a lot harder to hit the problematic propwash.

So aerotowing is not the same every where.

But at one particular operation aerotowing will be exactly the same 365 days a year and regardless of what gliders, tugs, flavors of tow equipment are being used. So Zack Marzec didn't really buy it at Quest three years ago.

I have to readjust my procedures and expectations and "feel" when I'm presented with radically new circumstances.

Oh. Those were radically new circumstances. So we should be fine launching in a gusty fifteen mile per hour ninety cross at Ridgely if you did so well with those radically new circumstances.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/09 02:31:37 UTC

The turbulance level was strong, among the strongest thermal activity I've felt leaving the field. I've encountered stronger mechanical mixing, but the vertical velocity this time was very strong.

Not RADICALLY NEW circumstances. Some of the stronger thermal activity they've had, but both professional pilots elected to continue the tow. Total nonevent for the one who hadn't decertified his plane and didn't have an instantaneous total power failure while climbing hard in a near stall situation.

Total fuckin' goldmine. Grade A smoking gun stuff.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2016/02/28 23:50:05 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/30 10:26:08 UTC

Notice that he, a very experienced tow pilot...

Fuck very experienced tow "pilots" - and every other kind of "pilot" in hang gliding and any other flavor of aviation you wanna name. Anybody in aviation who - beyond basic up/down left/right stuff - who needs to learn anything of any value through EXPERIENCE is a fucking moron.

Harping on and playing up one's competence as a consequence/product of his EXPERIENCE is just confirming that the Sainted One was (and is - stupidity isn't a condition from which significantly stricken victims are ever able to recover) too fucking stupid to have ever been able to learn anything through reading, math, science, physics, videos, books, posts, instruction, examples by others.

Whenever I wanna assess the competence of an aerotower I just take a one second glance at his shoulders and that tells me everything I need to know. Davis is just another moronic pin bending dope on a rope who flies a lot and has lucked out...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18695
How could this accident happen?

Davis Straub - 2010/01/28 06:10:17 UTC

I have tried to launch unhooked on aerotow and scooter tow.

...through most of his moronic career.

And all of the above applies equally to the assholes harping on and playing up others' competence as consequences/products of their EXPERIENCE.

...has to (and does) adjust quite significantly to the launch conditions.

Fuckin' amazing! Right up there with Pat the Student who the Bart and Tiki assholes were qualifying at the time.

Now imagine taking someone that's used to flying there and move them to sealevel behind a 914.

No. Let's instead take a professional tandem aerotow instructor who ALWAYS flies about as close to sea level as you can get and always behind 914s.

37-23223
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3728/9655895292_f4f808fb0e_o.png
06-03114

You might want to have some spare weaklinks handy.

You might...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

But sometimes a pro toad won't NEED a second weak link to increase the safety of the towing operation on a relight. The inconvenience can occasionally prove a bit too overwhelming - 'specially when the air's doing something more interesting than the nothing the equipment's geared for.

But what the hell. There will always be others coming along who can use them to increase the safety of the towing operations for THEIR tows. One thing hang gliding's never had a shortage of is people doing the same things over and over expecting better results.

Kite Strings

Departing the launch cart - Davis Show

Re: Departing the launch cart - Davis Show

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Re: Departing the launch cart - Davis Show

Re: Departing the launch cart - Davis Show

Re: Departing the launch cart - Davis Show

Re: Departing the launch cart - Davis Show

Re: Departing the launch cart - Davis Show

Re: Departing the launch cart - Davis Show

Re: Departing the launch cart - Davis Show