landing

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Gawd. Sure is nice to have somebody other that Brian, Steve, Yours Truly, Joe post something in many moons. And you didn't even log in to the ACP and unban Bob.
...High Energy...
Good. 'Bout time. Along the lines of Will's Wing's Easy Flyer desperation move - 'cept absolutely no hint of downside, let alone a fairly lethal control compromise. I wonder how many more decades it would've taken for mainstream western hang gliding to have made available an AT release that wasn't an easily reachable total piece o' shit if it hadn't set itself so firmly on its current irreversible path to extinction a dozen or so years ago.
...could have pulled these off safely by...
Yeah. A lot more of those get pulled off just fine than the instructors and landing clinic assholes want people to know about.
...should allow slide landings on sand....
Yeah. All my early flying was at Jockey's Ridge and I racked up a lot of hours there. And it was the most demanding flying I ever did. And wheels tended to be more of a bother than a benefit - 'specially since if it's soarable you're pretty much guaranteed a healthy smooth headwind in which to land. Skids... The glider stays put better, sand can't bother them, allow you to skim the slope with less worry.
The holes don't make a sound....
Back when full face helmets first became fashionable everyone - Yours Truly included - got these Uvex jobs.

Image

Brad Koji in that one. (Didn't do him any good on his last flight and the chin guard may well have been the safety feature which got his neck snapped.)

Conventional "wisdom" was that with our ears entombed we wouldn't be able to safely gauge our airspeed so they cut them all with pairs of one inch diameter circular ear openings. Made it REALLY easy to gauge one's airspeed. It wasn't long before I defeated that advancement with a pair of rubber patches.

Love the way you got the PG guys to line up and kite at the far end of the deck and establish an overshoot net for the last (uphill/downwind) landing. (Pity the camera had gotten tilted.)
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Jump to next post:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post11110.html#p11110

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmx7gZb8Ncc
2018.09.22 Skid Tests
Soar SoCal - 2018/09/23

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmx7gZb8Ncc


These attach to the Wills Wing aluminum speedbar wheel brackets.
And you'll notice that Wills Wing isn't the entity developing and promoting them and getting them into circulation. Maybe 'cause...
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
...Wills Wing markets their gliders through hang gliding schools and hang gliding schools survive by continuing to conduct lessons for their students until they've gotten their flare timing perfected. Or arms broken - whichever is achieved first.

This video's a total joy to watch and I knew five seconds into my first viewing that is was gonna necessitate another stills project. Still wish I could get Jonathan to approach as if the AJX pad were a patch in an eastern forest but I'll take what I can get.

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- 01 - chronological order
- 05 - seconds
- 01 - frame (30 fps)

Watch the kingpost / upper surface shadow working like a sundial through heading changes.

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Pretty much on final now, Jonathan...

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Shouldn't you be upright with your hands on the control tubes at shoulder or ear height for enhanced roll control and flare authority? (Straight into the sun on that one.)

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Careful...

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You're getting dangerously low as far as transitioning is concerned.

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Into the sun again.

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And again.

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Still flying the glider / effecting roll control adjustments.

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This part's pretty cool and/but also bothers me a little. Energy's being smoothly dissipated but the runway's getting beaten up way more that it would be with a decent pair of wheels. But:

- As opposed to perfectly flare timed foot landings are gonna snap downtubes and arms at high rates and the environmental costs of those are astronomic in comparison.

- With lotsa skids landings at half decent fields pilots could vary target strips as needed to allow recovery of grass/vegetation/soil.

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NMERider - 2018/09/23 16:47:24 UTC

I have been getting a fair amount of interest from other middle-aged pilots...
Fuck the old guys. We need to get younger people into the sport and protected from all this foot landing bullshit and its perpetrators.

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She DIED at the beginning of this year solely from being on the uprights when the air wasn't conforming to landing clinic standards.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O
NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.
Just like that.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27415
Friday the 19th with Hawks & Friends!
NMERider - 2012/10/24 21:47:05 UTC

I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.
It's fun 'cause we're safe, in control, flying the fuckin' glider all the way down until it's stopped moving.

Jump to top:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post11104.html#p11104
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=36175
HG launches need mowing (or be covered in carpet)
Doug Marley - 2018/09/17 14:05:17 UTC

We in North Carolina and Virginia have plenty of vegetation growth as well. Every time we go fly a site, we have the weed whackers in the back of the trucks, and take 15 - 30 minutes to trim all the vegetation down to nub-height. Otherwise the weeds become head-height and the site would revert back to it's natural state in a matter of months. Most of the launches are not cliffs, and in mild conditions have to run a good distance, so the launch needs to be reasonably free of snags with clear sight of the big rocks we have to run over.
As such, it's a constant maintenance chore, especially this year with all the extra rain we've had.
Thank G@d that most of the owners of the privately-owned sites maintain the LZ's in decent fashion with their farm machinery (tractors and brush hogs, etc.).
So, the weed whacker, string/blades, fuel, and extra pants are merely essential pieces of our flying kit.
Those pilots out west seem to have it all too easy. ;)
Not understanding why it's such a BFD to have the LZs need to be maintained to putting green standards.

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If it's an LZ the launch is either high terrain or high tow. And that's pretty much by definition a minimum Two Pilot Proficiency level. And all Twos are trained, tested, certified to be able to safely and consistently foot land within a moderately tight radius of a spot. And if the grass is three feet high you just treat its level as the hard surface and flare accordingly. So why does the LZ need to be mowed more than twice a season?

Thank God??? Sounds like a pretty substantial percentage of your flyers - most of whom are gonna be Threes - need to be spending a lot more weekends at the training hills to keep their Two skills up to snuff.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous
Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC

OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!? Image
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!! Image
Image
I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND Image That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh??? Image
Reading your post makes it sound like no one in your neck of the woods can land for sh*t.

Ditto for AJX.

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Any thoughts?

Somebody find me of photo of a reasonably well trafficked LZ that doesn't look like a putting green.
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<BS>
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Re: landing

Post by <BS> »

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=5928
XC landings
Marshall Robin - 2018/09/07 18:09:16 UTC

Realizing at this point that it was probably a lost cause, I went out to at least recover my vario from the downtube, but I couldn't get to it due to the current, and my efforts to bring it closer to me resulted in it getting freed again, drifting down the river, and folding up in the current. I climbed out and headed down the shore to the next opening in the brush. At this point the glider was nowhere to be seen.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=405372
Hang glider in the Owens River?
USHPA7 wrote:I was boating the Owens River this week and floated over a hang glider submerged in the river. The bent control bar and the undamaged end of the keel were above water, everything else was submerged.

Does anyone know the story behind this?

Frank
No hackle on the keel.
Dan DeWeese - 2018/09/10 20:32:49 UTC

tie some hackle on the keel . she'll float higher?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=5928
XC landings
NMERider - 2018/11/13 23:42:46 UTC

FYI - Dave Turner from http://sierraparagliding.com found Ken's glider and has the precise location recorded. I put Dave and Ken in touch with each other (hopefully) and the glider can soon be high and dry rather than submerged and damp.
Cheers, JD
Marshall Robin - 2018/11/14 00:13:16 UTC

Sooo... here's the weird thing.
That's not Ken's glider.
His glider did not have a harness clipped to it. I unhooked and climbed out of the river with my harness.
This means that someone else has one-upped my landing.
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<BS>
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Re: landing

Post by <BS> »

And no doubt another example of what hackle lack'll do.

P.S. Got me a little google education on hackle.
http://stevenojai.tripod.com/buzzhackle.htm
Fly Fishing In The Sierra
...the hackle helps support the extra weight of the hook curve so that the fly floats more evenly on the water...

Dan's fishing humor flew right over my head. :)
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/yosemite-full-episode/15156/
Yosemite | Full Episode | Nature | PBS
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/yosemite-about/15090/
Yosemite | About | Nature | PBS
Shot in 4K, the film opens at dawn in Yosemite Valley where hang glider pilots like Jeff Shapiro get ready to launch their aircraft at Glacier Point. Once aloft, the valley's famous glacier-shaped granite landmarks such as El Capitan, Half Dome, and Sentinel Rock come into view.
MAJOR mainstream media showcase for hang gliding in general, state-of-the-art Wills Wing in particular. Dead air morning sled, landing - 05:24 - in tallish grass. Stays on the CONTROL BAR until after he's bled off a lot of speed in ground effect, executes a RUNOUT landing.

Somebody find me a video of a student being taught to land the way all the more competent foot landers do.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I wouldn't presume to teach others how to land but for me the challenge is having precise control of the glider before flare. The flare window is really long on a T2, maybe 2 seconds or 50 ft, but I can't initiate pitch unless the wings are level and the glider isn't yawed (you can see the result in the landing video, I start thinking about avoiding Joe, the glider yaws almost imperceptibly and I drop a wing). Landing straight is easy in smooth or dead air but sometimes requires every bit of control authority that I can manage if the LZ is breaking off or if I have to maneuver late on approach. I always have plenty of pitch authority and don't grip the downtubes because it only takes a light push to get the nose up. I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

My other comment is that I like to make a long low final. I can flare more aggressively from close to the ground, I don't have to worry about mushing through a gradient and I'm only arresting forward motion. Try jumping off a chair and running--your feet are planted to the ground. I guess that's one reason why Greblo teaches students to flare gradually and run out their landings.
I wouldn't presume to teach others how to land...
Why not? You design, test fly, certify the fuckin' gliders and write the fuckin' manuals with the instructions on how to land the fuckin' gliders. Who should be BETTER qualified to teach others how to land? If the goddam instructors aren't teaching students how to conform procedures and skills according to what's in the manuals then we have at least one really big problem.
...but for me the challenge is having precise control of the glider before flare.
1. Also to always land in the glassy smooth air which ALLOWS precise control of the glider before the idiot fuckin' flare.

2. Oh. This is still a CHALLENGE for someone who's been designing and flying gliders - 'specially super high performance ones - since the beginning of time. So where does that leave all us weekender muppets? The hospital I'm assuming?
The flare window is really long on a T2, maybe 2 seconds or 50 ft...
Conditions permitting of course. In the real world thermal XC and ground level mechanical turbulence conditions all bets or totally off of course.
...but I can't initiate pitch unless the wings are level and the glider isn't yawed...
And the air isn't glassy smooth enough for the glider to keep doing what you've just told it to.
...(you can see the result in the landing video, I start thinking about avoiding Joe...
I started thinking about avoiding Joe EONS ago. And I advise all others with interests in hang gliding to avoid him like the fuckin' plague. And the RESPONSIBLE thing to have done in that situation would've been to smack him hard enough to permanently put him out of action and make it look like an accident totally of his making.
...the glider yaws almost imperceptibly and I drop a wing). Landing straight is easy in smooth or dead air...
Show me a landing training video that ISN'T shot in...

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...in glassy smooth or dead air.
...but sometimes requires every bit of control authority that I can manage if the LZ is breaking off or if I have to maneuver late on approach.
1. Wow. Really great deal that landing conditions never require MORE than every bit of control authority that you can manage. Seems like Mother Nature isn't the total bitch everybody's always saying she is.

2. So how 'bout some of us stupid muppets? If you're fairly frequently being pushed to the absolute limits of your skills coming in at AJX...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O
NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.
NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:43:09 UTC

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the DTs. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.
Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC

<rant>January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process- doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted- to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone.</rant>
I always have plenty of pitch authority and don't grip the downtubes because it only takes a light push to get the nose up.
What's it take to control roll as the glider's bleeding off speed on final?
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
And do we need to say anything about wheels, skids, the surface at this point? Just kidding.
My other comment is that I like to make a long low final.
And how nice it is that you only land at an LZ which PERMITS a long low final. Me? I like to keep my approach legs and final as short as safely possible so's I'm gonna be as competent and current as possible to deal with ugly RLF situations.
I can flare more aggressively from close to the ground, I don't have to worry about mushing through a gradient and I'm only arresting forward motion.
Great! So what's the point? You just said:
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
so what you're saying here is that you're only flaring aggressively close to the ground in situations in which you have absolutely no need to.
Try jumping off a chair and running--your feet are planted to the ground. I guess that's one reason why Greblo teaches students to flare gradually and run out their landings.
Who gives a rat's ass why Greblo teaches any students to do ANYTHING? That motherfucker doesn't allow his victims to touch the goddam control bar until after they've racked up the forty hours he mandates for signing off Threes and one flight before he releases them from his stranglehold.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2017/03/22
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
09. Advanced Hang Gliding Rating (H4)
-B. Advanced Rating - Required Witnessed Tasks
02. Demonstrated Skills and Knowledge
-f. All landings must be safe, smooth, on the feet and in control.
-h. Demonstrate three consecutive landings that average less than 25' from a target, or, optional landing task (see Addendum 1 - Optional Landing Task) after a flight which requires turns on approach. In smooth conditions, the spot location should be changed by the Observer, for each of the three flights. Flights should be a minimum of one minute and 200' AGL.
So an advanced Three CAN be expected to nail consistent sub 25 foot spot landings - safe, smooth, on the feet, and in control - but no pilot of any rating or experience level can EVER be expected to be able to...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30929
Doh! My worst landing ever, caught on tape
Red Howard - 2014/03/24 21:51:44 UTC

Aiming for a spot usually means that you are in the correct LZ. Aiming for a field can put you into the next field, long or short, or assorted other more serious troubles. Assuming for a minute that you plan to cross the fence about five yards (meters) high, and you hit some heavy sink on final, then what do you plan to do, flap your wings? Image
...glide through or turn onto final with under fifteen feet of clearance from the field's last downwind end obstacle in a normal range of flying conditions.

And I so wonder how any of us EVER manages to attain the precision needed to...
-k. Demonstrates an altitude gain of at least 500' in thermals.
...efficiently work thermal lift and deal with the associated turbulence with little to nothing in the way of visual references.

And isn't it absolutely AMAZING the number and range of U$HPA flyers we have who hold Restricted Landing Field special skill signoffs who are totally on board with the old-Frisbee-in-the-middle-of-the-LZ approach to approaching. But a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place in any conditions you wanna name? No fuckin' problem whatsoever.
Steve Davy
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Re: landing

Post by Steve Davy »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufTo633py5M


Now don't that just make you want to take up hang gliding?
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