landing

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://shga.com/forum/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5887
Ron Keinan
Jim Thompson - 2018/06/12 04:35:40 UTC

I received a message from Ron's wife saying that Ron is doing fine. His family is currently visiting with him while he attends a special rehabilitation program in northern Israel. No word yet on when he might return to the U.S.
1. If he's attending a special rehabilitation program in northern Israel he's not doing fine.

2. That post was a couple weeks shy of a year and a half ago and we've heard zilch since. He's extinct as far as the sport's concerned. And pretty much forgotten on top of that. This one was a fatal for all intents and purposes. But hell, he was a paid up u$hPa member so no problem with skills, currency, judgment, decision making. And I'm sure he'd have executed a perfectly timed landing flare in the middle of the field if only he hadn't clipped that last tree.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.newcastleherald.com.au/story/6558811/a-lucky-escape-for-a-hang-glider-pilot-after-a-crash-at-dudley-beach/?cs=7573
Hang glider crash at Dudley Beach, Newcastle: Woman taken to hospital after crash | Newcastle Herald
Newcastle Herald - 2019/12/27 12:28

A 53 year-old woman has been treated by NSW Ambulance paramedics after her hang glider crashed in a remote location at Dudley Beach on Thursday.
The Westpac Rescue Helicopter was called to the scene around 11.30am in what became a multi-agency effort to reach the woman.

The helicopter was able to land near the scene where the crew found the woman alert and walking around, a spokesperson for the rescue service said.
She was treated by paramedics at the scene before being taken to John Hunter Hospital in a stable condition.

http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49315287481_dca8584b31_o.jpg
Image
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=61662
Hadewych Van Kempen
Davis Straub - 2019/12/27 13:49:45 UTC

No Corryong or Forbes

http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49315000353_a91448756e_o.png
Image
Very dumb landing at Bombala. Broke humerus and maybe elbow. They'll probably operate and release me tomorrow. Glenn Selmes is holding my hand which is very nice and Conrad Loten was there to make sure I'm treated well. Big relief to have them around.
They're all very dumb landings, Hadewych...

Image
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses
Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
But wishing you a full and speedy recovery so's you can get back up on that horse and finish perfecting your flare timing. And do have a very Happy New Year.

(Pity your currency wasn't all it could've been.)

P.S. Did you have much trouble extracting yourself from the harness before unhooking it from your glider?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7826
report about my accident, Woodstock, June 11, 2020
Walt Melo - 2020/07/22 02:09:16 UTC

Guys,

As you may already know, I crashed my glider in my last flight in Woodstock. As a result, I ended up with 22 stitches on my nose.

With this experience, I learned the follow lessons:

a) Do not screw up especially when you are landing
b) If you do screw up, make sure you have coated nose wires: they are very sharp!
c) If you do screw up and do not have coated nose wires, make sure you have a helmet with a visor

We had only 2 HG pilots flying that day: Marc and I. Bacil volunteered to help us take off and also rescue us after landing.

After Mark took off, I waited for a good cycle to venture myself on the air. The winds were cross and when straight on the slot, winds were too weak. After several min (10-15 min?), I had a good take off, turned left and steadily move up on the ridge.

I never got very high: 1K feet above the take off a couple of times when I was able to get a good thermal. But most of the time, I was only 500 feet above of the ridge.

After 1h flying back and forth in front of the ridge I decided to land I think it was 7:00pm.

I arrived in the bridge field with plenty of altitude. I flew a few squares to burn my altitude before starting my DBF: this is when I screw up big time.

I poorly calculate my altitude in my last 360 and realized that I was too low. I did not pay attention on the following issues:

a) It was a hot day, so the air was not very dense: glider dives faster
b) I am too heavy to my glider (U2 145): glider dives faster
c) I did not notice that the wind was dead in the LZ: glider dives faster

These factors combined with my poor judgment about my altitude resulted in a very bad accident.

When I am started by DBF, I saw that I was too low, and I would not be able to complete my DBF. Instead of continuing to fly straight and land, I decided to turn 90 degrees to not land with a tail wind (although, like I said I did not notice that there is no wind in the LZ). Once again, I poorly calculate my distance from the trees and forced the glider to land on the wheels.

My right wheel opened (it is a bad wheel) and the control got stuck on the ground. The glider nose went down and I was pushed forward cutting pretty badly my nose in the (ironically called) nose wires.

Bacil was in the LZ and quickly came to my rescue. He helped get out the glider and harness. Most importantly, he helped to keep my nose skin in the right place and called 911.

After a few mins (10min?), the ambulance arrived and brought me to the WS hospital. I few hours late, I left the hospital with 22 stitches on my charming nose.

My experience would be worse if I could not count to my friends:
a) Bacil for running to my rescue, helping me out, and calling 911
b) Gary who went to WS after knowing about my accident to help and keeping my glider in his ranch
c) Mark who was forced to land in the other field (since the LZ was occupied with cars and people) for helping packing my stuff and for waiting for my release from the hospital.

These guys are not just great HG pilots, they are also loyal friends!
After Mark took off, I waited for a good cycle to venture myself on the air. The winds were cross and when straight on the slot, winds were too weak. After several min (10-15 min?), I had a good take off...
Good thing you weren't trying to AT launch at Ridgely in comparable conditions. Mountain foot launches are much safer due to the lack of complexity. (Notice the way nobody ever talks about having a good dolly launch, compliments anyone else on same?)
I arrived in the bridge field...
Somewhere in the neighborhood of 38°52'40.86" N 078°28'18.29" W.
...with plenty of altitude. I flew a few squares...
Why? Why not just set a bank and circle down over the middle of your field? So you can practice DBF? Didn't work out all that well, did it?
...to burn my altitude before starting my DBF: this is when I screw up big time.
You screwed up bigtime when you got into hang gliding. So did I.
I poorly calculate my altitude in my last 360 and realized that I was too low.
Too low to what? The object is to get the glider on the ground.
I did not pay attention on the following issues:

a) It was a hot day, so the air was not very dense: glider dives faster
Also glides farther so I'm not seeing this as a problem.
b) I am too heavy to my glider: glider dives faster
And controls faster and easier.
c) I did not notice that the wind was dead in the LZ: glider dives faster
Rubbish. It covers more ground - assuming you're landing into the wind.
These factors combined with my poor judgment about my altitude resulted in a very bad accident.
Crash.
When I am started by DBF, I saw that I was too low, and I would not be able to complete my DBF.
If you're flying downwind you can terminate your downwind and shorten your base. If you're too low to pull that off the degree of misjudgment is pretty astronomical.
Instead of continuing to fly straight and land, I decided to turn 90 degrees to not land with a tail wind...
So you were way the hell too low.
Once again, I poorly calculate my distance from the trees and forced the glider to land on the wheels.
So you dove it. Sounds like you had some energy still available to do something about direction.
My right wheel opened...
So you dove in into the ground rather than easing it back to level and letting it bleed off speed.
...(it is a bad wheel)...
So? You're a Three, right? You'd already demonstrated three consecutive spot foot landings. Shouldn't that mean you're totally and permanently qualified to handle just about any imaginable emergency landing situation?
...and the control got stuck on the ground.
Don't worry about it. Being in a situation in which your safety would be compromised by some joke excuse for a wheel is pretty much unimaginable. If the case were otherwise don't you think clubs like Capitol and comps would mandate wheels or skids and set standards for them? The way Davis mandated a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and placed at one end of a shoulder bridle for decades before deciding many of us would be happier with two hundred?
The glider nose went down and I was pushed forward cutting pretty badly my nose in the (ironically called) nose wires.
Wow. Who could've seen something like that happening.
These guys are not just great HG pilots, they are also loyal friends!
Yeah, just make sure you never try to do anything in the way of reform - get people to comply with the hook-in check SOP, an AT operation to comply with u$hPa and FAA equipment SOPs and regs. Then you'll find out fast how loyal your great HG pilot friends really are.

P.S. If you get a chance maybe ask how much longer it will take for my three month suspension from the forum will be up, why they found it necessary to lock the Weak link question thread early in the history of my three month suspension, how come there was so little CHGA/Ridgely interest in the 2013/02/02 Zack Marzec discussions.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=63498
Rolling in on an ATOS
Jay Z - 2020/09/08 19:32:04 UTC

Pilot has a plethora of landing aids: flaps, drag chute, and wheels.
Robert Moore - 2020/09/08 20:14:31 UTC

I've seen a large number of vids with ATOS pilots landing prone on wheels. If I wasn't an ATOS pilot myself, I might think:
1) ATOS gliders are especially appealing to disabled pilots; and/or
2) ATOS gliders are especially difficult to land.

I know assumption #2 isn't true. My VX and VR are among the easiest-landing gliders I've ever flown. Maybe not quite as easy as my Falcon 225 but still pretty easy.

Is assumption #1 valid? Is there a wheelchair or walker waiting just outside of the shot in these vids? We have a pretty high concentration of ATOS pilots here in NorCal and I've never flown with such a pilot. I have no idea why an ATOS would be more appealing to a disabled pilot, but if true I would love to hear about it.
Jay Z - 2020/09/10 21:12:33 UTC

Indeed Robert, they are easy to land, and they have the weak-link downtubes. What I suspect is that, given the cost of these exotic wings, some pilots are neurotically protective of them and are willing to go to ridiculous lengths to avoid even the possibility of them touching earth.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26854
Skids versus wheels
Andrew Stakhov - 2012/08/11 13:52:35 UTC

So I just came back from flying in Austria (awesome place btw). Stark difference I noticed is a large chunk of pilots choose to fly with skids instead of wheels. Conversations I had with pilots they say they actually work better in certain situations as they don't get plugged up like smaller wheels. Even larger heavier Atosses were all flying with skids. I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground... And those are all carbon frames etc.
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Re: landing

Post by <BS> »

I've seen a large number of vids with ATOS pilots landing prone on wheels. If I wasn't an ATOS pilot myself, I might think:
3) ATOSs are for girls!
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=63498
Rolling in on an ATOS
Brad Gryder - 2020/09/11 04:12:59 UTC

Some pilots now elect to skip the training hill and just go straight to soaring via aerotow.
You mean like pretty much ALL sailplanes?
A rigid is a logical option for them as their 1st wing. The prudent instructor will caution them of their increased risk exposure if they continue to avoid learning to foot land...
What exactly is that risk? Where's the data and what does it show? I'll settle for anecdotal stuff.
...but most just continue to fly long hours and land back at the country club. All goes well until the day they get trapped and have to land out.
Has anybody ever actually gotten trapped and had to land out?
Robert Moore - 2020/09/11 14:58:49 UTC

Hmm... interesting - and kinda scary. Maybe it's because as a NorCal pilot, I can't think of a single designated LZ where I would (literally) risk my neck on a roll-in landing.
Good thing everybody has his flare timing perfected then.
Even the manicured lawns at SoCal's Sylmar and Crestline LZ's are bordered with unforgiving terrain for roll-in's.
1. So are lotsa airports and all aircraft carriers.

2. Right. The people who can't manage to hit the Sylmar and Crestline LZs are gonna be just fine executing perfectly timed flares in the non wheel landable terrain bordering them. Keep up the great work, Joe.
It seems like a completely unnecessary additional risk for the able-bodied pilot.
Yeah, it certainly SEEMS that way.
Wayne B. Ripley - 2020/09/11 16:06:01 UTC

Rolling in

Having flown out west I can see how "rolling in " might seem risky to those who's landing area's...
Nice use of apostrophes.
...are not conducive to such a landing but here in the east we have many aerotow parks that are basically manicured and rolling in is a safe and effective landing option. Also having wheels when aero towing is a safety issue in that a broken weak link right off the cart can be enough of a surprise as to cause an at speed pile in.
No, you're just making more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow. Everyone and his dog have known since the beginning of time that continuing to climb out right off the cart when everything's going like clockwork is a virtual death sentence. The people who really get this experience huge sensations of relief when a weak link breaks right off the cart. And I can't imagine why anybody would be the least bit surprised - what with Quest Air having been perfecting aerotowing for nearly thirty years now.
I don't want to get the whole wheels or on wheels going...
What's the difference between "wheels" and "on wheels". The former is wheels that you never actually use?
...but they have there place.
There place is over their - on girl gliders mostly.
Bille Floyd - 2020/09/13 08:17:09 UTC

I gave my WW U-2 away , in favor of only flying the Exxtacy ; the Atos would only be Better. I feel i have Way more control, over the wing ; both flying, and takeoff and landing. I don't want or need help if the wind is under 25.

I land on wheels, about 1/2 the time ; depends on how my fake legs feel that day.
If you hadn't gone for a foot launch tow at Jean Lake on 2007/10/18 you wouldn't have fake legs. Also if you'd just bothered to try to lift your glider to the stops before committing.
David Williamson - 2020/09/13 15:36:02 UTC

3)

ATOS gliders are heavy. My VX is 105 lbs and, if you get caught out by a sea-breeze tail wind at ground level you will find it hard to run it out at that speed. I think that Luke was stuck under the weight of one for 20 mins. after he broke both uprights in a downwind landing. I've landed it on big wheels in ploughed fields with no problems.
1. You're not supposed to land in ploughed fields. You're supposed to land in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.
2. See above about girls.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=63498
Rolling in on an ATOS
Robert Moore - 2020/09/16 15:29:48 UTC

I'm not talking about unplanned "caught landing downwind" accidental landings, or disabled pilots who need to use their wheels. I'm also not debating whether or not pilots should fly with wheels as a general safety feature.

A planned wheel landing of any traditional HG with the pilot in a still-prone position is adding an additional risk factor. Maybe the risk can be reduced with certain equipment or LZ conditions, or justified by a pilot's disability, but the risk is still there.
You're absolutely 100.00 percent right. There is ZERO risk coming in upright for a foot landing with your hands at shoulder or ear height where you can't control the glider prior to executing a perfectly timed flare...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13619
Landing an Atos glider
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13712
Very sad news
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13744
control
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13745
Good News vs Sad News
http://www.flyatos.com/bill_landing.jpg
Image
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13744
control
Jason Boehm - 2009/09/23 15:13:41 UTC

aerotow might have a point here
...while a planned wheel landing of any traditional HG with the pilot in a still-prone position is a virtual death sentence. In fact if I were to be forced to come in like that I'd just deliberately put it in the powerlines for a good shot at ending things as quickly and painlessly as possible.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13744
control
Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/09/23 18:10:04 UTC

Not seeing power lines and hand position are not correlated.
The atos isnt even weight shift. Hands high or low you still have roll control.
The pitch pressure is super light too.

I would like to see hands low on the down tubes until in ground effect myself but this has nothing to do with the accident.

He didnt see power lines in time. Sounds like a POTENTIAL judgment error of some kind. It also seems that he turned away from the powerlines, so turning wasnt the issue. Turning low maybe... maybe some other stuff. WHO KNOWS. Thats the point. No need for people to talk out their a** about something they know very little about and piss everyone off.

The timing of this thread is awful.
Locking thread... this is troll/flame bait with extremely weak implications.
My, what incisive analysis from a local coffee shop owner with no publicly accessible record or evidence of ever having actually flown anything.

Don't seem to be locking and/or basementing a lot of threads a lot of threads these days, Jack. Guess that's 'cause the sport's in a death spiral and you don't have people coming into your local coffee shop with anything of any substance to say.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=63498
Rolling in on an ATOS
Wayne B. Ripley - 2020/09/16 19:16:50 UTC

wheel landings

In my mind the additional risk is in the foot landing not a wheel landing, when the wheels are the right size and the LZ is smooth I have never witnessed a bad landing, alternately I have witnessed near prefect conditions when a foot landing turned out to be disastrous, broken bones and broken gliders. Having both options and knowing how to execute both is a good way to extend your hang-gliding career.
Robert Moore - 2020/09/16 20:09:40 UTC

I've never personally witnessed a chute deployment, either, but I know it's something I don't want to do unless I have to. I try not to rely on safety equipment unless its really needed. My primary landing gear are my feet.
Brad Gryder - 2020/09/17 02:32:16 UTC

With one exception being coastal (beach) landings in laminar winds, most tandem pilots in normal environments prefer to wheel land due to its increased safety factor over foot landing.

The "normal environment" caveat means fields with short grass which may or may not include cow paddies. If an unexplored emergency field looks rocky, rough, or has tall grass or weeds that might grab the base bar, then the tandem pilot will probably attempt a foot landing, but normally he's looking for a good (low risk) field where he can execute a safe wheel landing for himself and his student.

The difference between the tandem pilot and the "wheels only" pilot who's never learned to foot land is that the tandem pilot has more options. He can choose to expose his less valuable legs to harmful terrain if the need arises, instead of always gambling with his face and neck. If the tandem pilot stays safe, then his student will also likely be safe.

Friends don't let wheel-landing friends fly years on end without offering to help them learn to foot land. Sooner or later they'll eat the rocks if they don't know how to get upright and flare right.
Robert Moore - 2020/09/17 03:21:16 UTC
...get upright and flare right.
That should be the able-bodied pilot's mantra!
Wayne B. Ripley - 2020/09/16 19:16:50 UTC

wheel landings

In my mind the additional risk is in the foot landing not a wheel landing...
Ya..
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
...think?
...when the wheels are the right size...
Instead of tiny placebo jobs which may or may not do you any good in an actual routine landing situation?
...and the LZ is smooth...
An LZ is a designated site landing field. Name some that aren't smooth.
...I have never witnessed a bad landing...
They're all bad 'cause they're all face first. Just ask Joe Greblo and George Stebbins.
...alternately I have witnessed near prefect conditions when a foot landing turned out to be disastrous, broken bones and broken gliders.
1. Not to mention quads and kills.

2. But they're all setting themselves up for disaster 'cause they're not working on perfecting their flare timing for when they need to land in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.
Having both options and knowing how to execute both is a good way to extend your hang-gliding career.
1. How much practice, experience, currency, judgment, skill - not to mention...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2095
Should we try a different way? Designwise....
Steve Corbin - 2015/09/02 22:26:04 UTC

Any un-biased observer should be able to see why wanna-be pilots find PG more attractive than HG. Standing around in the Andy Jackson Memorial International Airpark at a busy fly-in shows that a PG landing is a total non-event, while everyone stands up to watch HG's, piloted by "experts", come in to land. A good landing by a HG is greeted by cheers, an acknowledgement that landing one successfully is a demonstration not just of skill, but good luck as well.
...luck - is involved in a wheel landing?

2. There's no such thing as KNOWING how to execute a foot landing 'cause in real world conditions...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
...stopping safely on your feet is a total crap shoot. Ask Mitch Shipley for his advanced landing clinic, the one in which he sets his scooter tow rig in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place in gusty midday thermal conditions.

3. I KNOW how to execute a foot landing. And it took me decades to learn that one should never do one unless one's coming down into a strong smooth headwind with no substantial upwind obstructions - preferably at a coastal site.
Robert Moore - 2020/09/16 20:09:40 UTC

I've never personally witnessed a chute deployment, either, but I know it's something I don't want to do unless I have to.
Zack Marzec had to do one on his last flight but probably needed to initiate while he was still on tow. But if he was fuckin' clueless enough to fly pro toad with Rooney Link protection into a monster thermal shortly after launch he was obviously too fuckin' clueless to know that he needed to do it well before he finished rocketing up into whipstall mode.
I try not to rely on safety equipment unless its really needed.
Landing gear isn't SAFETY EQUIPMENT. Landing gear is something a COMPETENT PILOT will use for ever flight of his career. A parachute is emergency equipment that comes into play after we've exhausted all our piloting options. And with the rarest of exceptions a competent pilot will never get into a situation in which he needs to resort to using emergency equipment.
My primary landing gear are my feet.
So was Bill Vogel's.

http://www.flyatos.com/landing.htm
Landing the Atos
http://www.flyatos.com/bill_landing.jpg
Image

He was coming in slow and had zilch maneuvering speed and no option for stuffing the bar and diving under the wires.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13712
Very sad news
Vince Endter - 2009/09/20 20:38:57 UTC

I was the only witness to the accident. We had launched from Elk. Bill launched first, then Rich then me. We could not get higher than launch. We headed for the thistle field (the creek bed next to the thistle field). Bill was about 800' below me. He had set up to land between the two sets of wires crossing south of the thistle field. I radioed to him to watch out for the wires crossing the creek bed. He did not reply. He continued his approach to land in the upright position. It looked like he was at the same elevation as the wires when the finally saw them about 100' away and about 30' of altitude. He made a quick left hand turn, it looked like he was trying to make a 360. When he was 180 degrees through the turn his left hand tip hit a bush and his body impacted an 8' tall bank at the creek bed's edge.
He SHOULD have been able to pull that off if this report is reasonably accurate. And let's rewind and give it a go 'cause we can't make the outcome any worse.
Brad Gryder - 2020/09/17 02:32:16 UTC

With one exception being coastal (beach) landings in laminar winds, most tandem pilots in normal environments prefer to wheel land due to its increased safety factor over foot landing.
Why? 'Cause you can stay in certified configuration in normal environments?
The "normal environment" caveat means fields with short grass which may or may not include cow paddies.
1. Name somebody who's ever sustained injury or damage due to a cow paddy while wheel landing.
2. If we include mature wheat in the category of tall grass Ridgely product Paul Vernon got permanently demolished by it on 2012/06/06.
If an unexplored emergency field looks rocky, rough, or has tall grass or weeds that might grab the base bar, then the tandem pilot will probably attempt a foot landing, but normally he's looking for a good (low risk) field where he can execute a safe wheel landing for himself and his student.
1. One wonders how sailplanes ever manage to manage.
2. Show me a video of a tandem ride coming down in something other than a Happy Acres putting green.
The difference between the tandem pilot and the "wheels only" pilot who's never learned to foot land is that the tandem pilot has more options.
WHAT?
- Virtually all tandem pilots operating as tandem pilots are "wheels only" pilots.
- NOBODY's EVER "LEARNED" to foot land 'cause foot landing in real world conditions is ALWAYS a CRAP SHOOT.
- There are no "wheels only" pilots who've never "learned to foot land save for people who came into the sport as paraplegics.
- We never hear about paraplegics and guys who become "wheels only" due to lower back issues having the slightest problems landing.
He can choose to expose his less valuable legs to harmful terrain if the need arises...
1. The need NEVER arises. Tandem operators would be sued out of existence after the first weekend if they put rides in situations in which they came down in foot only terrain.

2. Right. LEGS are what get injured in foot landing efforts. Arms, shoulders, necks, faces, heads always come out smelling like roses 'cause they're all way up out of harm's way.
...instead of always gambling with his face and neck.
Fuckin' moron.
If the tandem pilot stays safe, then his student will also likely be safe.
Yeah, Rob Richardson got killed. His "student" got of with a mere memory wiping concussion.
Friends don't let wheel-landing friends fly years on end without offering to help them learn to foot land.
1. If only we could find a friend who'd learned to foot land. (Anybody hear anything from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney lately? I'm rather surprised that he's not participating in this thread - currently just five topics down from his Davis Show "Landings" sticky.

2. If Threes and Fours who are flying around racking up more airtime need HELP learning to foot land then foot landing is obviously something that can't be learned. And what's really interesting is that it as SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN "learned" for a One sign-off.
Sooner or later they'll eat the rocks if they don't know how to get upright and flare right.
1. Yep. Sooner or later - just a matter of time. Happens to EVERYBODY eventually. So we need to teach the pilot whose proven incapable of keeping a safe field in range how to execute a perfectly timed flare in his Plan B boulder field in whatever-the-hell conditions kicked in at the time.

2. Show me the incident report of this mythical Three who was unable to keep the LZ or a safe alternative in range?

3. Why won't they eat trees sooner or later? There's ALWAYS gonna be a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place in range after the lose the primary?
Robert Moore - 2020/09/17 03:21:16 UTC
...get upright and flare right.
That should be the able-bodied pilot's mantra!
It is.

Image

Obviously. And then when they're no longer able-bodied they're no longer pilots and we never hear from them again. Frank Sauber flew for over sixteen years before going scooter towing to learn to foot land so he could get his Three so he'd be able to land safely when he sooner or later had to come down in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place. And he locked out and got killed in the Taylor Farm Happy Acres putting green 'cause he didn't learn (and Santos Mendoza didn't teach him - now that I think of it) that in a crosswind he needed to let the glider drift downwind of the track to the pulley and point at the pulley / winch / boat / truck / tug.

But let's keep making 99 percent of our Jack and Davis Show threads and 99.99 percent of our instruction all about perfectly timed, positioned, executed foot landing flares. And don't worry about being challenged by anybody. You're coffee shop owners will step in to keep all the discussions friendly, positive, productive.

P.S. Did Bill Vogel survive his hang gliding career long enough to get himself in a position in which he need to get upright and flare right to avoid eating rocks. I'd have thunk that one of his friends would've mentioned that career landmark in the course of one of the postmortem discussions - 'specially what with the way that T** at K*** S****** asshole was in there so disrespectfully shooting his mouth off about how that situation might have been a lot more survivable...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13744
control
Jason Boehm - 2009/09/23 15:13:41 UTC

aerotow might have a point here
...if he'd stayed prone with his hands on the CONTROL bar.

P.P.S. Note absence of wheels/skids on the basetube in the photo above. That's definitely an able-bodied pilot who's learned how to get upright and flare right to avoid eating rocks. He'd have to have been totally wacko to come in like that if he hadn't.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Jump to next post:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post12141.html#p12141

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGMqFvBJftY
Couds, epic glories and a 360°hook landing
Andrea Ghidini - 2020/09/04

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGMqFvBJftY
One of the world's all time greatest approach videos...

(Thanks bigtime...
http://www.kitestrings.org/post12135.html#p12135
...Jan.)

...but - thanks to its resolution and this rather outrageous Final Cut (http://www.kitestrings.org/post11927.html#p11927) noise problem the project was a total nightmare. High resolution is 1920x1080. This sucker is 3840x2160 - twice those dimensions for four times the number of pixels. My workaround:
- Save all (75 for this one) the noisy frames from within Final Cut.
- For each frame take upper left/right and lower left/right screen shots (in that order). With my 2560x1600 MacBook Pro display and Final Cut 1998x1324 is the max I can do. These will be pristine - save for the extreme right last pixel column.
- Layer these shots into their positions over the Final Cut product. (Yeah, there's tons of overlap but it doesn't matter.)
- Clear the right column to leave the Final Cut product (in which I never detected a noise issue) intact.
- Flatten.

Oh well, developed some tricks and learned some skills.

Launch:
45°39'55.37" N 010°33'40.05" E

Ground Camera shots have one pixel tall/wide strips of crap trimmed off the edges. He's positioned at:
45°38'30.43" N 010°33'02.10" E
---
2020/11/23 02:00:00 UTC

Where catalog numbers are paired, as in "14-02802 - 44-10107" or "53-10719 - 22-03411", the first is what you're seeing seeing and the second is the closest other camera harvested match. More on this at the end of this post and at:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post12142.html#p12142

The pairing works nicely for seeing and jumping to what's going on with the glider for the given moment (or pretty close to it anyway) from the other perspective.
---
01-00111
- 01 - chronological order
- -0 - minutes
- 01 - seconds
- 11 - frame (24 fps)

01-00111
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596212792_8aea4fd1f9_o.png
Image
02-00323
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596092056_7d433bcc92_o.png
Image
03-00509
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596091886_051b9e3df9_o.png
Image

The nearest open land we're seeing is the landing area.

04-00611
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50637957383_0f4d167f88_o.png
Image

Note camera mount. Using it to shoot all the glider based angles we're seeing in this video. Clearing below glider is first SW of launch area - 45°39'46.19" N 010°33'27.72" E.

05-00712
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596212377_647ac8bd94_o.png
Image

From behind launch. (Took me forever to figure that out 'cause I'd been working on the assumption that launch was towards us and the gliders were parked tail to the wind.) Pond's at 45°39'57.88" N 010°33'41.95" E.

06-00912
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596212162_77f3af5fb7_o.png
Image
07-01019
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595349028_cdaf934324_o.png
Image

First clearing SW of launch areas straight down. (Same as in 05-00712.)

08-01122
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596211727_b0881ed70c_o.png
Image

Second and third clearings.

09-01823
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596091091_fe83ed79e1_o.png
Image

Includes launch area. Reference reddish roof at 45°40'01.71" N 010°33'43.19" E.

10-02014
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596090886_04f4689e06_o.png
Image

Left glider lined up towards LZ area.

11-02417
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596090801_840e0ff4c9_o.png
Image

First frame of the approach/landing sequence. Even in the low rez image we can see Ground Camera just in front of Andrea's face just above the apex of the tree's shadow. (But use the high rez (URL) just for fun.) Sun's in the WSW - late summer mid afternoon. (Note that Andrea's head is facing or turned left towards Ground Camera continuously throughout the approach until late on final. Granted, he's also turning to port pretty much constantly throughout approach but we're still seeing more than we'd otherwise expect.)

12-02610
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596090536_e01ec9c166_o.png
Image

Powerline below. NW edge of field, single strand. We can even see its shadow. Helps with orientation a bit.

13-02710
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596210852_ca337eba2b_o.png
Image

Ground Camera just above helmet.

14-02802 - 44-10107
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50621880581_4e128ee36d_o.png
Image
15-02815
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596089826_489fe12289_o.png
Image
16-03007 - 46-10307
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596210072_d1c254ddd0_o.png
Image
17-03018 - 47-10404
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596089166_04ce6a1e8b_o.png
Image
18-03120 - 48-10515
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595347043_a85e92c5f8_o.png
Image

Same line over dwelling.

19-03302 - 49-10621
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596209312_023c080109_o.png
Image
20-03401 - 51-10712
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595346548_226ee6b613_o.png
Image

Ground Camera comes into close view for about a half second.

21-03408 - 52-10715
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596208912_5c8e7325e6_o.png
Image

Glider's eclipsing the sun for Ground Camera in this frame. See 53-10719 below. Since we're seeing 24 fps from both cameras it would be brain-dead easy to synchronize what we're seeing from both perspectives.

22-03411 - 53-10719
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595345893_e145e3c77b_o.png
Image
23-03417 - 54-10721
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596208277_ba68bb4e4c_o.png
Image
24-03507 - 57-10901
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596087396_f2f48c3908_o.png
Image

Things get a little quiet for a bit. See 58-11001 below. Ground Camera tree mostly behind Andrea's helmet.

25-03621 - 58-11001
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596087106_acebd33049_o.png
Image

Turnpoint reference:
45°38'30.83" N 010°33'04.66" E

26-03806 - 59-11115
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596086841_4db8e24f0b_o.png
Image

Ground Camera's back in view.

27-03816
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596086481_29b348e657_o.png
Image
28-03909
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596087996_b335ea7766_o.png
Image
29-04014 - 62-11322
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595344158_16b8a68734_o.png
Image
30-04202 - 64-11500
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596206152_52904591e7_o.png
Image
31-04310 - 66-11619
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596205897_cb48ac4cf1_o.png
Image

Nice look at the glider camera and front end of the mount via shadow.

32-04415 - 67-11720
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596205622_7b4014a3af_o.png
Image

We're banking here corresponding to two frames (a twelfth of a second) ahead of 68-11811 below.

33-04515 - 68-11811
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596084891_6864c6165c_o.png
Image

Gawd I'd love to see a sequence like this terminated on skids.

34-04616 - 69-11918
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595342668_a7390af4c0_o.png
Image

Ground Camera back in view to the right of his tree.

35-04900 - 71-12214
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595342478_86983c7275_o.png
Image
36-04920 - 72-12403
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595342333_50799208dc_o.png
Image

Ground Camera cut off behind south tree.

37-05022
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596204397_f997d32ab3_o.png
Image
38-05111
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595341878_f61e12bc23_o.png
Image

Ground Camera between south tree and port downtube.

39-05122
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595341578_2b9c311438_o.png
Image
40-05216
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596203747_5c76d11351_o.png
Image

Ground Camera above left forearm. "Perfectly timed" landing flare which nevertheless fails to bring the glider to the textbook dead air dead stop it's supposed to. Nobody in the real world actually does this moronic bullshit.

41-05318 - 73-12618
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595341213_c87dc85695_o.png
Image

Note camera/mount configuration via shadow, glory effect around camera.

42-05418 - 75-12807
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596083051_23b5fb3ce1_o.png
Image
43-05507 - 76-12902
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596203102_1f484340bc_o.png
Image

Mostly matching Ground Camera sequence. Launch is a tiny bit below the horizon about a third of the frame back from the right edge.

44-10107 - 14-02802
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595340488_cb40dc4e30_o.png
Image
45-10204
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596082416_3dee84f011_o.png
Image
46-10307 - 16-03007
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595340348_4767ddf5c4_o.png
Image
47-10404 - 17-03018
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596202597_1d591e4024_o.png
Image
48-10515 - 18-03120
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596202512_a7a5c6fde1_o.png
Image

Start watching the altitude regain.

49-10621 - 19-03302
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596082141_67a6fcbf22_o.png
Image
50-10706
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596202412_4a6c7530a8_o.png
Image
51-10712 - 20-03401
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596082016_05861ce664_o.png
Image
52-10715 - 21-03408
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596202362_46314423d0_o.png
Image

See 22-03411 above. Note the catenary tower on the horizon in the lower left corner. Serious powerlines on the other side of the field.

53-10719 - 22-03411
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596081951_4454b79145_o.png
Image
54-10721 - 23-03417
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596081911_80e2a9225c_o.png
Image
55-10806
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596202267_c7cdb104ce_o.png
Image
56-10810
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596081816_3e02c43e1a_o.png
Image
57-10901 - 24-03507
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596081766_037b43da86_o.png
Image

See 25-03621 above.

58-11001 - 25-03621
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596202207_b7182c21a3_o.png
Image
59-11115 - 26-03806
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596202122_5181e11f57_o.png
Image
60-11207
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595339793_87e268b71c_o.png
Image
61-11308
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596201987_a2510f825f_o.png
Image
62-11322 - 29-04014
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596201807_3114290ebd_o.png
Image
63-11410
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596201727_89c00d34e2_o.png
Image
64-11500 - 30-04202
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596201607_cd4a736a31_o.png
Image
65-11522
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596201487_a8a3355a22_o.png
Image

Note mostly limp wind streamer.

66-11619 - 31-04310
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595339208_a7d3c5fecf_o.png
Image
67-11720 - 32-04415
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595339053_a94fc18d5c_o.png
Image

Be careful not to side-slip into the surface, Andrea. This is the point at which you're at the greatest risk for this lethal approach hazard. (See 33-04515 above.)

68-11811 - 33-04515
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595338973_06675928d7_o.png
Image

This is Ground Camera's tree coming into view and about to block part of final.

69-11918 - 34-04616
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596080581_6a6f99bd1e_o.png
Image

And blocked - although you can see a bit of white sail still making it through.

70-12018
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50600758828_950bc51027_o.png
Image

The little tree to the south of it.

71-12214 - 35-04900
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596080476_9e234bcf70_o.png
Image
72-12403 - 36-04920
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50601501411_4008c5bc44_o.png
Image

Total dead air.

73-12618 - 41-05318
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596200722_c12a34ed1f_o.png
Image
74-12710
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595338393_8ccfc29c08_o.png
Image

Run-out. Glider's stopping at about:
45°38'27.60" N 010°33'03.03" E

75-12807 - 42-05418
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50596080046_09b9a89e8e_o.png
Image

What if this had been a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place? I'm sure you'd have had plenty of excellent options for practicing one of those if you hadn't gone for this girlie level Happy Acres putting green.

76-12902 - 43-05507
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50595337813_95c44ee7dc_o.png
Image

A bit more on synchronizing the approach shots from the glider and ground cameras...

Glider starts at 02610 - 0801 (seconds:frames) Before Eclipse, Ground starts at 10011 (not included) - 0708 BE. I used Glider's first frame. The first still pulled from Ground is 10107 - 0612 BE. It would be something of a waste of bandwidth to have everything duplicated 'cause what's gonna look good and/or be useful from the one perspective probably won't be from the other.

However... We CAN sync these sequences rather nicely by noting that that the difference between the eclipse points - 03411 and 10719 - is 03308 (33 seconds, 08 frames at 24 fps (thirty-three and a third like the vinyl LPs used to spin over the course of a minute))... So three conversion tables:
- actual:
-- Glider stills to Ground counts
-- Ground stills to Glider counts
- interlaced - non harvested frames in italics

Glider:
02610-05918
02710-10018
02802-10110
02815-10123
03007-10315
03018-10402
03120-10504
03302-10610
03401-10709
03408-10716
03411-10719
03417-10801
03507-10815
03621-11005
03806-11114
03816-11200
03909-11217
04014-11322
04202-11510
04310-11618
04415-11723
04515-11823
04616-12000
04900-12208
04920-12304
05022-12406
05111-12419
05122-12506
05216-12600
05318-12702
05418-12802
05507-12815
Ground:
02723-10107
02820-10204
02909-10307
03020-10404
03207-10515
03313-10621
03322-10706
03404-10712
03407-10715
03411-10719
03413-10721
03422-10806
03502-10810
03517-10901
03617-11001
03807-11115
03923-11207
04000-11308
04014-11322
04102-11410
04116-11500
04214-11522
04311-11619
04312-11720
04503-11811
04610-11918
04710-12018
04906-12214
05019-12403
05310-12618
05402-12710
05423-12807
05516-12902
Interlaced:
02610-05918
02710-10018
02723-10107
02802-10110
02815-10123
02820-10204
02909-10307
03007-10315
03018-10402
03020-10404
03120-10504
03207-10515
03302-10610
03313-10621
03322-10706
03401-10709
03404-10712
03407-10715
03408-10716
03411-10719
03413-10721
03417-10801
03422-10806
03502-10810
03507-10815
03517-10901
03617-11001
03621-11005
03806-11114
03807-11115
03816-11200
03909-11217
03923-11207
04000-11308
04014-11322
04102-11410
04116-11500
04202-11510
04214-11522
04310-11618
04311-11619
04312-11720
04415-11723
04503-11811
04515-11823
04610-11918
04616-12000
04710-12018
04900-12208
04906-12214
04920-12304
05019-12403
05022-12406
05111-12419
05122-12506
05216-12600
05310-12618
05318-12702
05402-12710
05418-12802
05423-12807
05507-12815
05516-12902

With two exceptions one still of the pairs will be nonexistent. 03411-10719 is the eclipse and on 04014-11322 I got lucky.
---
2020/11/14 23:00:00 UTC

I spent an enormous amount of time harvesting stills and composing this archive and almost that again (so far) upgrading it. Worth it? I dunno - but it's a treasure of a video and the work has been something of a challenge and mental exercise. Thanks again for the lead, Jan.
---
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User avatar
TheFjordflier
Posts: 74
Joined: 2015/03/07 17:11:59 UTC

Re: landing

Post by TheFjordflier »

Nice. You always seems to have an eye for details :-)
Here is another of his landings. On instagram, and of a lower video quality, but still outstanding :-)
http://www.instagram.com/p/Btuw3TaIlkh/
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