Mid-air between Neil Atkinson (class 5) and a Swiss competitor. Both Ok after deployment. Neil being checked out at the hospital.
Two class 5 together, no other gliders of any type anywhere near, neither had seen the other. Gliders are wrecked. Pilots are OK. Neil was walking about the goal field before he went to hospital for a check up on his arm.
Tad Eareckson - 2014/06/29 13:11:42 UTC
But if an Atos had collided with another Atos that wouldn't have been because the Worlds with over a hundred pilots were being held along with the regular paraglider and hang glider traffic at Annecy.
Toldyaso, motherfuckers. Under fifteen hours.
P.S. It's Atos, not ATOS - asshole. Atos isn't an acronym for anything.
Because I never volunteer to help with anything, and a well-stocked First Aid Kit is definitely in MY best interest, I took on the job of inventorying and restocking the three First Aid Kits. WHAT? THREE? Yes, three. Let me explain.
There is a stationary First Aid cabinet. It's white, and has signs pointing the way to it. There's also (perhaps MORE importantly), a portable First Aid kit. It is kept in the cupboard closest to the Stationary First Aid Kit. Joe and Jay have agreed to keep this door unlocked during the day, in order to facilitate easy access. The inventory lists, which are self-explanatory, are kept on the inside of the door to this cupboard. The final kit, which is overstock, is kept in the storage building to the east of the Stationary First Aid Kit.
I am happy to continue inventorying and restocking the kits, as it's easy to do and helps us all...
Let me know if you have any questions.
OK...
- Wouldn't it be a good idea to mark the boxes and their locations with the icon of the SHGA safety mascot to make sure everyone immediately knows where to run whenever somebody breaks an arm?
- What do you find yourself having to restock most? I'm thinking that, for example, if you were going through a lot of tourniquets you might do a lot better just putting up a "Do Not Feed The Crocodiles!" sign.
- If you found that one hundred percent of the injuries needing to be dealt with were the consequences of standup landing attempts...
The end goal for everyone included is to get you into the air safely and in "good position". I call it "Good Position" to describe being where you want to be to maximize your flight... for example... for a thermalling flight, you want lift, but for a pattern tow you want to be in the "staging area". Yesterday would be a good example of one of the rare times where you'd want to be towed downwind... because that's where the gaggle is.
For the most part, we're deaf to each other. There aren't a lot of ways to communicate.
I do my best to guess what the guy behind me is after. Hopefully I'm guessing right most of the time.
I know you're left back there to guess at a lot of stuff too. Sometimes right, sometimes wrong, and sometimes the stuff that looks like it matters actually doesn't.
Overall, I think everyone will be happy to know that in general, ya'll tow very well. Thank you btw... it makes my job much easier.
And you want my job to be easy... because, it makes your life better. If I'm not having to deal with other things, it leaves me free to get you into better position. Like, if I'm having to work hard just to help you stay on tow for example, I have very little time to worry about where the thermals are and how to put you in one.
Some of you may have encountered me asking about tow speeds when I switch planes.
This is because the airspeed sensors on every tug are different (and generally suck). The reason this is important is because until I know what our target speed is, I have to guess... more work, less time to think about thermals.
An other example of "if my life is easier, then your life gets easier" is... Russell's electric trim tugs are simplicity to tow with and make it super easy to make the tows much smoother.
So here's some tips from the other end of the rope.
My #1 piece of advice... don't get creative.
The easiest tows are "by the book". Clever tricks don't work (for various reasons).
#2 Smooth.
Smooth is almost always better. I can not emphasize this enough.
You can be assertive and "get things done" while still being smooth. Sharp and aggressive movements are rarely helpful. I often want to strangle Pagen for introducing the notion of "Bumping". I'm sure it's a great tool for teaching mountain flying, but on tow it makes things harder. (It's sh*t for mountains too, but it sometimes helps students learn... then they hopefully refine their technique and smooth out later)
#3 Wings level.
Above all else, especially near the ground... wings level.
Get up to the tug or down to the tug AFTER you have your wings level.
(more after 4)
#4 Towline tension is a very important idea.
It's especially relevant to weak links, although it's important to many things in towing.
When you takeoff, it's extremely likely that you'll hit the prop wash. It is also very predictable. In the desert, you can actually see it (dust kicks up). You will encounter it where I start. So where the tug is on the runway when we're line tight and ready to go... that's where you'll hit it.
Pull in as you do.
Shockloading weaklinks breaks them... that' the idea. Hitting the prop wash... is well "hitting" something. If you're high drag because you're pushing out, you hit with far more force. The opposite is true if you're pulling in. A slight pull in relieves a lot of towforce. You don't want go overboard and slack the rope of course because when it unslackens, it shock loads... but if you can slightly unload things as you fly through the prop wash, you will have a much better time.
Pitch (wings level part2)
Don't be in too much of a rush on pitch.
My best advice is to keep moving in the right direction. You don't need to be laser accurate on tow, but keep moving in the right direction. If you're a little high, be coming down... a little low, be coming up. As long as you're closing the gap, you're good. Don't rush it. If you're not closing the gap... if things are getting worse... then you're not doing something right... get on it... get it heading in the right direction.
Why is that so important?
Because of towline tension. If you're too aggressive in fixing things, you'll cause a lot of abrupt tension changes.
Remember, the air is exponential... you can generate a hell of a lot of force with those wings very quickly.
Be smooth.
#5 Stay in position.
"A little high because... " or "A little low because...." is a bad idea in my book.
Stay in position. Your life will be better for it.
There are many reasons for this.
If you sit high on me, I'm going to try to get you back on the horizon. I know what speed your glider tows at BTW. Once you're back on the horizon, I will seek this speed.
If I slow down to help you get back on the horizon, and you pop back up to where you were... after a few times, I stop helping.
You don't want that.
I stop because you're wearing me out.
Imagine towing too fast... it wears you out right?
I do 50-80 tows on a busy day. You've got bar pressure right? I've got stick pressure. Try doing 50 fast tows. Yeah, it can get sucky really fast.
So, if you're a little high, I'll try to come up to you... but I'm not going to hold that speed.
If you pop back up as I get to you, you're asking me to.
That ain't going to happen.
At that point, I set "trim" (I know the stick pressure that equals the correct tow speed for you) and I turn on autopilot.
The result?
We fly faster. Why? because you're pulling my tail up, which speeds me up.
You also don't want to sit high on me as we also climb like ass. That's a much higher drag profile... remember that your wings are exponential in force.
So please stay in position.
It'll make your life a lot easier.
There's more to it (there have been some very interesting conversations on the topic lately) but I've gotta get to work.
More later.
At least this gets the ball rolling.
The view from the other end of the rope
Looking in a mirror which turns the glider backwards and makes it look smaller - to some egomaniacal pigfucker with his head up his ass.
Towing is an interesting dance.
When one has a single digit IQ and has no fuckin' clue what he's doing or talking about I would imagine so.
The end goal for everyone included is to get you into the air safely and in "good position".
You assholes deliberately pull one of your Rooney Linking pro toad tandem aerotow instructor buddies into a thermal which is strong but not outside the range of your experience, he pops off tow and whipstalls into a fatal tumble, and you tell us...
Like the rest of us, you have no idea what really happened on that tow.
We probably never will know.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC
Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.
Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.
...that what happened is a totally inexplicable mystery that you professionals will never be able to understand and we muppets better not discuss too much. And now you're gonna lecture us some more about getting into the air safely and in "good position" after telling us that nobody can really understand what that is.
I call it "Good Position" to describe being where you want to be to maximize your flight... for example... for a thermalling flight, you want lift, but for a pattern tow you want to be in the "staging area".
And where should I be in relation to the goddam Dragonfly to be in what you call "Good Position" in those cases?
Yesterday would be a good example of one of the rare times where you'd want to be towed downwind... because that's where the gaggle is.
So during this dance in which you're towing me downwind should I be in front of the tug?
For the most part, we're deaf to each other. There aren't a lot of ways to communicate.
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
...a passenger have communicating with the Pilot In Command of the flight anyway?
I do my best to guess what the guy behind me is after.
Let's see what we can eliminate to help with the process...
Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.
The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favorite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
I get it.
It can be a pisser.
But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.
Excellent soaring conditions. That's right out.
Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 16:45:39 UTC
I am more than happy to have a stronger weaklink and often fly with the string used for weaklinks used at Wallaby Ranch for tandem flights (orange string - 200 lbs). We used these with Russell Brown's (tug owner and pilot) approval at Zapata after we kept breaking weaklink in light conditions in morning flights.
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????
Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
Your intellect is way keener than that of the muppets who fly hang gliders.
I know you're left back there to guess at a lot of stuff too.
It was pretty quiet at Ridgely when we arrived at noon. Brian VH and Felix were there-- and Sammy (sp) and Bertrand... and Soraya Rios from the ECC. She was not flying.
Felix test flew Bertrand's T2C for about an hour and loved it. Brian had a short flight on a Falcon. I got on the flight line at a little after 1pm behind Sammi. She had a sledder. Then the tandem glider called rank and went ahead of me. The tandem broke a weak link and it took a while to sort out a new weak link. I finally towed around 1:30 and also broke a link at 450'. Back to the end of the line. Actually, my wife Karen let my cut in front of her. Bertrand and Sammi towed again. Each having sledder. The cirrus had moved in and things did not look good. Again I arrived at the front of the line only to have the tandem call dibs. And then the tug needed gas. I thought I would never get into the air...
If we're lucky.
Sometimes right, sometimes wrong, and sometimes the stuff that looks like it matters actually doesn't.
Deltaman - 2013/02/16 22:41:36 UTC
How is that possible to write so much ..and say NOTHING !?
Overall, I think everyone will be happy to know that in general, ya'll...
What letter or letters is that apostrophe supposed to be replacing in that little contraction of yours?
...tow very well.
- Especially...
...you pro toads.
- Why would Ridgely be towing ANYONE who didn't tow very well? What would be the point in ensuring that everybody had the finest Quest velcroed on spinnaker shackle and bent pin barrel releases and bridles that money could buy and supplying the finest lockout prevention fishing line known to man and then letting a bunch of clueless muppets who might not be able to properly manage Rooney Link pops go up anyway?
Thank you btw... it makes my job much easier.
Oh PLEASE... We owe it all to your excellent instruction. How else would we understand that we need to fly behind the tug and be able to execute up, down, left, right inputs to do so? It's really a pity that there are no towing competitions in which the best of the best can showcase their flying behind the tug skills.
And you want my job to be easy...
I want you just as dead as Bill Priday, Keavy Nenninger, Zack Marzec, Mark Knight are - more if at all possible. Ideally I'd like to see you die the way Zack did but I'll be happy with whatever I can get.
...because, it makes your life better.
I can't begin to describe the euphoria I'd feel.
If I'm not having to deal with other things, it leaves me free to get you into better position.
What "other things"? Describe them. Show us some videos.
Like, if I'm having to work hard just to help you stay on tow for example, I have very little time to worry about where the thermals are and how to put you in one.
Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
- Oh. You're pulling people who DON'T have the skills to stay behind the tug but DO have the skills to thermal once they're up and loose. Bullshit.
Some of you may have encountered me asking about tow speeds when I switch planes.
This is because the airspeed sensors on every tug are different (and generally suck).
That's OK. The tugs themselves and their drivers all suck.
The reason this is important is because until I know what our target speed is, I have to guess...
That must be a terribly tough assignment. 'Specially for someone who does fifty to eighty tows on a busy day.
...more work, less time to think about thermals.
In my experience thermals tend not to require a whole helluva lot of thinking. I'm guessing they take even less thinking for somebody who's got a reliable engine to keep him up.
And it really makes me wonder how I managed to fly for over a quarter century without an airspeed indicator of any sort - beyond feel / glider responsiveness...
An other example of "if my life is easier, then your life gets easier" is... Russell's electric trim tugs are simplicity to tow with and make it super easy to make the tows much smoother.
Pity one wasn't being used on Zack's last flight. Or was one?
So here's some tips from the other end of the rope.
The Pilot In Command end of the rope.
My #1 piece of advice... don't get creative.
Use only the off the bottom end of the legal range fishing line we order you to. Don't even think about midrange stuff which exceeds our tow mast breakaway protector. And no homemade funky shit releases which allow you to release when you need to. Just the useless bent pin crap we sell.
The easiest tows are "by the book". Clever tricks don't work (for various reasons).
What "various reasons"? What are some of these clever tricks? How come since my first aerotow, 1986/08/01, I've never heard of one? Better yet, how come since my first ANY tow, 1980/11/14, which was at the end of the era of control frame bridles, I've never heard of a clever towing trick - or anyone being slammed in as a consequence of one?
#2 Smooth.
Smooth is almost always better. I can not emphasize this enough.
Do you need to? Who's advocating rough and jerky?
You can be assertive and "get things done" while still being smooth. Sharp and aggressive movements are rarely helpful.
- Where's the video? There's very little that can happen on tow of which we don't have a really good video record. If this is an actual issue it should be a total no brainer to find tons of video examples.
- Oh. But rarely they ARE helpful. So how are we supposed to know when we should kick them in without you telling us?
I often want to strangle Pagen for introducing the notion of "Bumping".
- Pagen never introduced a goddam thing in the course of his entire miserable existence. There isn't a goddam punctuation mark in the entire excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden, that wasn't put there on the request commercial operations.
- So what's your source documenting that he introduced the notion of "Bumping"?
- But doesn't his introduction of the notion that a Rooney Link will very clearly provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns, and the like for your form of towing more than make up for any and all other transgressions?
- Do you have a fucking clue what "Bumping" is? Pilots new to towing are told to make "bump" rather than "full" roll corrections because if they do what they're used to in free flight they'll get into oscillations do to the increased roll responsiveness that comes with towing. Watch Heels here:
She's doing little bump corrections nonstop and keeping the glider totally on the rails. Tell me she's doing something wrong (minus, of course the Industry Standard total crap she's using).
I'm sure it's a great tool for teaching mountain flying...
You're SURE it is? Is it or isn't it? What the fuck's the difference between mountain flying and Ridgely flying once the glider reaches release altitude or the Rooney Link pops - whichever comes first? So you're "SURE" it's a great tool for teaching but you're not using it? How come?
...but on tow it makes things harder.
- Bullshit. Flying is flying - whether you're being pulled along by gravity, a string, or an engine. And the only times you find people deliberately doing things which make flying harder is when they've been taught and conditioned to by you assholes.
- What does "pro towing" make things? I'm guessing not easier 'cause you:
-- don't start students out that way
-- call it "pro towing"
(It's sh*t for mountains too...
Didn't you just say that you were sure it's a great tool for teaching mountain flying?
BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.
Got it.
...but it sometimes helps students learn...
Which times? Is there something comparable going on with pitch control? Do different students learn different techniques for pitch control which work with varying degrees of success for varying individuals?
...then they hopefully refine their technique and smooth out later)
Oh.
- You're sure it's a great tool for teaching mountain flying.
- It's shit for towing and mountains.
- It sometimes helps students learn to do things the wrong way.
- After students have learned to do things the wrong way a few lucky ones will be able to unlearn the wrong way and learn what they should have in the first place.
So where are the videos of the students who've learned this bump technique and haven't refined and smoothed things out? This is total bullshit. The kinds of person who has the slightest aptitude for flying doesn't jerk his glider all over the sky because of something some asshole instructor did or didn't tell him. He just gets a feel for how the glider responds to his actions and how to best get the glider going where he wants it to. If I can tell him some bullshit to get him off track for more than five seconds or so he should probably be pursuing another hobby anyway.
#3 Wings level.
Above all else, especially near the ground... wings level.
Get up to the tug or down to the tug AFTER you have your wings level.
(more after 4)
But if the tug's banked 45 degrees I should keep my wings level.
#4 Towline tension is a very important idea.
Oh. Towline tension is an IDEA - one you undoubtedly came up with all by yourself. How 'bout stuff like gravity, weight, lift, drag, airspeed... Are those IDEAS too?
It's especially relevant to weak links...
What weak links? The ones with the long track records or the ones Morningside recently decided they were happy with?
What IS a weak link? What are its purposes and how do you calculate/choose the strengths to most effectively serve those purposes?
...although it's important to many things in towing.
TO BE SURE!
- pitch, lockout, drag, panic protection
- emergency release
- increases the safety of the towing operation
- track records
- inconvenience
- limitation of load on Industry Standard bent pin releases
- makes Dragonfly incapable of stalling
- ensures everyone plays by the same rules or doesn't play at all
When you takeoff, it's extremely likely that you'll hit the prop wash. It is also very predictable. In the desert, you can actually see it (dust kicks up). You will encounter it where I start. So where the tug is on the runway when we're line tight and ready to go... that's where you'll hit it.
- Oh. So it just starts accumulating immediately aft of the prop and remains stationary while the tug and glider accelerate through 250 feet of runway. Who'da thunk.
So let's say you're using a weak link rated for 226 pounds towline...
- If you shockload it to 175 pounds it'll break.
- But if you smoothly increase the tension to 300 it'll hold.
Do I have that about right?
- Is there any test data I can see which supports this idea of yours?
- Shouldn't there be a revision of the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden, which includes this new vital information?
- How come this phenomenon isn't explained anywhere in Dr. Trisa Tilletti's fourteen page 2012/06 magazine article?
that' the idea.
- Whose IDEA? Somebody's besides yours? If it's legit then how come it's not in the SOPs or on the test?
- So if that's the IDEA...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC
One of the biggest bits that seems to be under appreciated is the bit that weaklinks break under shock loading.
They can take a hell of a lot more force if they're loaded slowly... which is exactly what happens in a lockout.
Most people don't experience this first hand.
It's because most pilots will hit the release before the weak link breaks... as they should. Most pilots understand this concept. I'd say almost all do.
Now, it happens fast.
Many pilots still get off line quick as well.
So most have not seen just how much force it takes to break a smoothly loaded weaklink. It's way more than you'd imagine.
...then what the fuck good is the weak link doing as a lockout protector?
Hitting the prop wash... is well "hitting" something.
Yeah. A lot like hitting:
- the two hour mark
- five thousand feet
- thirty miles
If you're high drag because you're pushing out, you hit with far more force.
Say you're using a Rooney Link which limits your towline tension to 226 pounds. When you hit the propwash how much tow force will be involved just before your Rooney Link pops?
The opposite is true if you're pulling in. A slight pull in relieves a lot of towforce.
Define "a lot". Please use an actual number somewhere in your response.
You don't want go overboard and slack the rope of course because when it unslackens, it shock loads...
- Yeah, all you rope slackeners listen up here. I get real tired of seeing this happen.
- And, of course, if anyone were actually doing this there'd be no fuckin' way for the two planes to take that slack up smoothly.
...but if you can slightly unload things as you fly through the prop wash, you will have a much better time.
So what if we just eliminated the Rooney Link and made sure everything between the tug and glider would hold to a thousand pounds. What would happen? Would the shockload...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC
See, in truck towing, a weaklink does next to nothing for you (unless the line snags).
This is because you're on a pressure regulated system... so the forces never get high enough to break the link.
This is not the case with an aerotow.
This is why the weaklink exists.
The forces of an aerotow can get high enough to tear the wings off the glider.
This is no exaggeration... it can be done.
...be high enough to tear the wings off the glider? Or...
So... if it's *only* purpose is to prevent your glider from breaking apart... which is complete and utter bullshit... but if that was it's only purpose... why then do we have them at all?
Your glider will tear the rope apart before it breaks.
It will tear the topmast off the tug before it breaks.
Your glider is capable of amazing feats of strength... it is in no danger of folding up on you.
...would nothing at all happen?
How 'bout sailplanes? Aren't they subjected to proportional forces during launch and don't they have the same issues to deal with?
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
You and I have flown sailplanes for almost as long as we have flown hang gliders. We own two sailplanes and have two airplanes that we use for towing full-size sailplanes. In all the time that we have flown and towed sailplanes, we have not experienced or even seen a sailplane weak link break.
It's not that it doesn't happen, but it is a rare occurrence. Russell Brown, a founder of Quest Air in Florida and a well-known Dragonfly tug pilot, is also a sailplane pilot, tug pilot, and A&P mechanic for a large commercial sailplane towing operation in Florida. He told us that, like us, he has never seen a sailplane weak link break, either.
Is the reason that they never break weak links or tear the wings off their gliders when hit propwash because:
- they all:
-- fly perfectly every time - because they're inherently better pilots than hangies
-- use proportionally heavier weak links:
--- with much longer track records than the Rooney Link
--- which vary in proportion to max certified operating weights
--- specified for models by glider manufacturers
- this IDEA about shockloading is just something else you pulled out of your ass
Pitch (wings level part2)
Don't be in too much of a rush on pitch.
My best advice is to keep moving in the right direction. You don't need to be laser accurate on tow, but keep moving in the right direction.
But you DO need...
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/23 19:42:44 UTC
Greenspun get's used because it's manufactured. It's a common and standard material. You can get it at a fishing store and everyone knows what it is. This seems trivial, but it's again one of those things that looks small, but isn't.
Argue all you like about the validity of it's consistency in manufacturing (I know Tad will), but here's the rub... it has a testing system in place. And it far exceeds anything any non manufactured article could hope to achieve.
...laser accurate fishing line for the safety of the tug driver - single loop solo, double loop tandem. Probably a triple loop if USHGA can talk the FAA into letting it do threesomes.
If you're a little high, be coming down... a little low, be coming up.
DAMN! I've been doing just the opposite! You really DO have a keen intellect!
As long as you're closing the gap, you're good. Don't rush it. If you're not closing the gap... if things are getting worse... then you're not doing something right... get on it... get it heading in the right direction.
See above.
Why is that so important?
Because you're telling us it is. Anything you pull out of your ass and present as indisputable fact is critically important.
Because of towline tension. If you're too aggressive in fixing things, you'll cause a lot of abrupt tension changes.
And this is so important why? Gliders can't handle abrupt tension changes?
Remember, the air is exponential...
GAWD! I hadn't thought of that before! Exponential air! I never realized the potential danger I was in.
...you can generate a hell of a lot of force with those wings very quickly.
- Any chance you can include an actual NUMBER somewhere in this scholarly dissertation of yours? Just kidding.
- What can you generate when you're flying as smoothly as humanly possible in really turbulent air - as we all hope to be? Aren't the tension fluctuations all over the fuckin' map? People have to work hard for several minutes to keep things together. Beyond that... So fuckin' WHAT?
- How 'bout fixed line (static) surface towing? The air has essentially zero effect on the truck and the glider's feeling EXTREME tension fluctuations. So it slows its climb in response to lulls and climbs crisply in response to surges. So fuckin' WHAT?
Be smooth.
Lemme write that down.
#5 Stay in position.
"A little high because... " or "A little low because...." is a bad idea in my book.
Fuck you and your goddam book. You seem to be suffering from the delusion that glider towing never existed before you came into the sport of hang gliding and learned what dicks you needed to suck to get proclaimed and accepted as the world's leading expert on EVERYTHING.
REAL people teaching REAL aviation NEVER talk about what's in *THEIR* BOOKS - or, for that matter, anybody else's goddam books. They teach basic principles of PHYSICS - principles which were firmly in place billions of years before anybody started writing books about them. And on this planet we have fuckin' insects which were able to exploit these principles hundreds of millions of years before we came along and figured out how to get our own clumsy asses into the air.
Being high or low isn't a great idea in YOUR book? Who's ever suggested otherwise?
Kids... Do not EVER trust a motherfucker who refers to "his book". Dead giveaway that you're dealing with a self promoter. And a self promoter is NEVER anyone you wanna be trusting your life to. In my book, anyway.
Stay in position. Your life will be better for it.
Really? That seems to have been a major issue in...
Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.
...the Zack Marzec incident. He was very clearly not staying in position and his life was very clearly not better for it. I really think you're on to something here. We may be able to finally start cracking this one open.
So...
- Why did he choose to not stay in position?
- Or was it the case that he was physically unable to stay in position?
- If someone with his qualifications, experience, physical condition, and youthful reflexes flying Industry Standard equipment was physically unable to stay in position then what's the point in advising these CHGA muppets to do so?
I am posting the report my husband, Paul Tjaden, just wrote about Zach Marzec's death at Quest. It is a great tragedy to lose someone so young and vital. We are sick about it, and our hearts go out to his friends, family and loved ones.
If you sit high on me, I'm going to try to get you back on the horizon. I know what speed your glider tows at BTW.
Oh.
- So different gliders got different flying speeds, weights, LD ratios, VG settings, points within the hook-in weight range, handling responses, proficiency requirements, bridle configurations... But they've all got the same fishing line. And you've got no fuckin' clue as to how that fishing line translates to pounds or Gs or to explain to us muppets what you mean by "works" when you tell us that it "works".
- And you don't DICTATE flying speeds, weights, LD ratios, VG settings, points within the hook-in weight range, handling responses, proficiency requirements, bridle configurations... But you DO DICTATE the same fishing line - with no fuckin' clue as to how that fishing line translates to pounds or Gs or to explain to us muppets what you mean by "works" when you tell us that it "works".
Once you're back on the horizon, I will seek this speed.
If I slow down to help you get back on the horizon, and you pop back up to where you were... after a few times, I stop helping.
- Help whom? You're the Pilot In Command, we're just passengers. Shouldn't you just be flying the plane? If we want pretzels or something shouldn't the stewardess be attending to that?
- After a FEW times? You keep doing the same thing over and over and keep getting the same results so then you stop doing it?
You had a thing and it broke needlessly.
You didn't want the thing to break needlessly.
You replaced the thing with a stronger thing.
Now the thing doesn't break needlessly.
Interesting concept.
You don't want that.
God no! You stop helping us with that pretty soon you'll start letting us fly with whatever fishing line and/or homemade funky shit release equipment.
I stop because you're wearing me out.
And that would probably have a negative effect on your keen intellect.
Imagine towing too fast... it wears you out right?
No, my Rooney Link increases the safety of the towing operation and I spend the next hour in line waiting for a relight and watching the soaring window evaporate.
I do 50-80 tows on a busy day. You've got bar pressure right? I've got stick pressure. Try doing 50 fast tows. Yeah, it can get sucky really fast.
Whenever you're within fifty miles of an airport it's sucky before I even get started.
So, if you're a little high, I'll try to come up to you... but I'm not going to hold that speed.
If you pop back up as I get to you, you're asking me to.
That ain't going to happen.
At that point, I set "trim" (I know the stick pressure that equals the correct tow speed for you) and I turn on autopilot.
The result?
We fly faster. Why? because you're pulling my tail up, which speeds me up.
You also don't want to sit high on me as we also climb like ass. That's a much higher drag profile... remember that your wings are exponential in force.
Exponential is such a cool word! You should use it in as many totally nonsensical sentences as possible!
So please stay in position.
It'll make your life a lot easier.
Word count to here: 1074.
Message: Stay level with the tug.
Ratio of self important crap to message: 213.8 to one
Ratio of self important crap to useful message to target population: 1074 to ZERO.
There's more to it...
Yeah, we didn't hear anything about Mach 5 takeoffs, the new orange stuff Morningside decided they were happy with, Zack Marzec, or John Claytor.
...(there have been some very interesting conversations on the topic lately)...
I can only imagine! This has obviously only scratched the surface of staying level with the tug! We haven't yet talked about which is better to keep on the horizon - wings or wheels.
...but I've gotta get to work.
Another day, another fifty to eighty tows, another fifty to eighty tows worth of brilliance and enlightenment. Don't know how you manage to do it. My head would've exploded before getting through more than a weekend or two.
More later.
Oh good!
At least this gets the ball rolling.
And helps divert the attention of all those useless Capitol club assholes away from the issue of John Claytor almost getting killed by you pigfuckers a month ago on a launch lockout in which the Rooney Link didn't work - just as well as the Rooney Release didn't.
Ok, I've been getting some excellent feedback, so I'll try and address that now, and there's a bit more to add (hopefully I can remember it)....
Here goes.
So when I'm talking about "not getting creative", a lot of that boils down to staying in position.
I know there are tug pilots that want people to hang low on them because it can relieve stick pressure. Mostly I hear about this from 582 pilots for whatever reason. That's a "creative" bit in my book and it's not my cup of tea. I want people in position. To ask them to be "sorta in position, but sorta not" is asking a bit much. K.I.S.S right?
Other people seem to have gotten the idea that hanging high is a good thing. They're trying to fix a perceived problem and the trouble is that not only does it not fix it (it makes it worse) it's that you create a host of other problems by trying to fix the first one.
Some of it as well I suspect comes from flying with newer tug pilots. We've seen this a lot with HG pilots transitioning to the tug.
See, in a HG when you hit lift you push out right?
That instinct kinda screws things up in the tug. In the tug, you push over.
When you're flying behind a tug that slows down in lift, they go to the moon and leave you in the dirt.
If I was stuck behind someone doing that, I'd probably sit high on them as well.
There are many bad things that happen when you do that, but let's talk about how it's supposed to work...
When I hit lift, I do a few things to try and help out.
In lighter lift with softer edges, I just speed up... then I wait. When you hit it, I slow down and we climb together. This works most of the time.
If we're in strong stuff however, simply pushing over isn't going to work... I'll still climb fast and you'll be left in the dust as you hit a sharp edge... not thrilling.
Now, before we talk about technique two...
Remember... don't jam the bar out to try and catch me!
Close the gap... SMOOTHLY.
If you jam the bar out, it's the same scenario as the prop wash... high tension and a sharp force.
Ok, so what I do in strong stuff... is turn.
In a turn, you have a lot of control over the tow force.
Go to the outside of the turn and you speed up and climb...
Slide to the inside of the turn and the force goes decreases.
So, if we're slamming into lift and I'm going to shoot to the moon, I turn. This allows you to cut the turn to the inside if you need to.
NOTE HOWEVER that cutting the inside of turns as a practice is a bad idea.
Why?
Because you're attached to my tail.
If you cut the inside, you slow my turn. So if we're trying to turn and you're always sitting on the inside, we're going to have a lot of trouble turning. We're also going to turn very inefficiently.
What I was talking about in regards to your wings being "Exponential" goes back to the nature of wind.
As we know, the power of the wind's force changes exponentially with it's speed.
So twice the wind is four times the force.
Four times the speed isn't eight times the force, it's sixteen.
And so on.
On tow, you're being pulled through the sky. Changes in pitch (in particular) have an increasing effect on the tug... and not a linear increase... they ramp up very quickly.
If you've ever locked out, you know this intimately.
It doesn't smoothly get stronger and stronger... it gets a little stronger then a good bit stronger then "oh my god stronger".
That's "exponential".
Sunny calls it "falling off the beach ball".
Standing on a gigantic beach ball... take a step to the left... you tip a little bit... take an other and you tip a lot... take an other and you're falling off the ball.
Our brains don't instinctively work that way.
So when people make what they consider to just be a "big" input, on my end, it's huge... and on the weaklink, it's huge as well.
Well, that's my best stab at that stuff.
Hopefully it makes some sense.
Ok, I've been getting some excellent feedback...
- I'm sure you have. I'll bet all the Ridgely/Capitol guys were totally entranced by your Russian novel's worth of telling them to stay level with the tug.
- Such a pity, though, that nobody posted any of the excellent feedback. When it's in print in makes it a lot easier for Ridgely/Capitol guys to get a good feel for the kind of excellent feedback with which they should be chiming in.
The function of this website is to contribute to hang gliding and to encourage people to learn about and perhaps participate in the sport. Tad's comments are not conducive to projecting the image we want to represent us.
...THE function of this website is to contribute to hang gliding and to encourage people to learn about and perhaps participate in the sport and Tad's comments are not conducive to projecting the image WE want to represent US the chances of you getting any NEGATIVE feedback are as far down the toilet as the average Ridgely/Capitol flyer IQ.
so I'll try and address that now, and there's a bit more to add (hopefully I can remember it)....
And hopefully you can remember enough of the lies you've told over the years so's the inconsistencies and contradictions aren't as embarrassing as they usually are.
Here goes.
So when I'm talking about "not getting creative", a lot of that boils down to staying in position.
I know there are tug pilots that want people to hang low on them because it can relieve stick pressure.
Wanna really relieve stick pressure? Climb up to two hundred feet and stay there for the duration of the time you'd normally be climbing to two thousand. Much easier on the Rooney Link as well.
Mostly I hear about this from 582 pilots for whatever reason.
That really makes me sad. Different opinions from different engines - when you're all in such astoundingly beautiful lockstep...
But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)
...on the 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak link and Zack Marzec's fatal tow being a complete indecipherable mystery.
That's a "creative" bit in my book and it's not my cup of tea.
Where are the public statements from the 582s and gliders who hang low behind them?
I want people in position. To ask them to be "sorta in position, but sorta not" is asking a bit much.
Yeah, it's like handing a two hundred pound glider a one G standard aerotow weak link and hearing a bunch of crap from a four hundred pound glider who wants something heavier than a one G standard aerotow weak link. We all play by the same one G rule or we don't play.
K.I.S.S right?
Yeah. Everybody uses Industry Standard equipment with the same length track record. And you know that it works in reality 'cause everybody uses it.
Other people seem to have gotten the idea that hanging high is a good thing.
From where?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC
Ditto dude.
It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).
We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC
Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...
The tow park Tad runs? I think you need to look a lot closer to home if you're looking for dangerous theories. Aren't the vast majority of these muppets with the strange ideas products of the tow parks at which you're teaching and pulling? How many of the CHGA wire people you're talking to got qualified at some place other than Ridgely, Manquin, Morningside, Kitty Hawk, Lookout, Quest, Wallaby?
They're trying to fix a perceived problem and the trouble is that not only does it not fix it (it makes it worse) it's that you create a host of other problems by trying to fix the first one.
Funny that you had so little trouble getting them all to agree to fly with the same fishing line but you can't get them all to agree to stay level with the tug. I'da thunk it would've been just the opposite.
Some of it as well I suspect comes from flying with newer tug pilots. We've seen this a lot with HG pilots transitioning to the tug.
So who's qualifying the tug "pilots"?
See, in a HG when you hit lift you push out right?
guy. I'm guessing that when he hit the lift he had and held the bar all the way back - same way it would've been just before he hit the lift, just after...
Carful who you put stock in mate.
Calling blindrodie a fool? Seriously? Easily discounted?
You may not have an understanding of who you're brushing off... In lieu of some people that have been listening to the rantings of, I kid you not, a convicted pedophile. I'm willing to look past the messenger... To a point. But gimme a break... You're blowing off a tug pilot instead?
They're tug pilots, right? I thought that made them infallible?
And they're PROFESSIONAL PILOTS...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC
It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
You're not just some know it all pilot arguing with professional pilots, are you?
In the tug, you push over.
Really? There's not one word at any time from Zack Marzec's tug pilot about...
Yesterday was a light and variable day with expected good lift. Zach was the second tow of the afternoon. We launched to the south into a nice straight in wind. A few seconds into the tow I hit strong lift.
Zach hit it and went high and to the right. The weak link broke at around 150 feet or so and Zach stalled and dropped a wing or did a wingover, I couldn't tell. The glider tumbled too low for a deployment.
Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.
...pushing over. Ditto for any of the (bogus, doctored) reports that came out after everyone had had a few days to get their stories straight. And I'm not seeing how if he'd done so it wouldn't have made Zack's situation even more lethal. So maybe these responses aren't as...
Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.
His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.
Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC
January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone.
...one-size-fits-all as you'd have us believe. Maybe that's the case with the Rooney Link as well.
When you're flying behind a tug that slows down in lift, they go to the moon and leave you in the dirt.
Same place you or one of your asshole buddies left John Claytor when you attempted to launch him in a fifteen plus ninety cross. 'Cept the dirt that he was left in was a helluva lot more literal and life altering than the dirt you're talking about.
If I was stuck behind someone doing that, I'd probably sit high on them as well.
I wouldn't tow behind someone like that. I wouldn't tow behind ANY of you assholes 'cause you're all incompetent and an incompetent Pilot In Command of my glider can kill me - WILL kill me, given enough repetitions.
There are many bad things that happen when you do that...
Oh BULLSHIT. At the very worst you get a bit out of whack and the Rooney Link breaks. And the Rooney Link will always break if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), before you can get into too much trouble. It's an inconvenience at worst and you're ALWAYS better off being off tow than on - anyone who says otherwise is just making more of that crappy contradictory argument. And we're all highly experienced at dealing with those inconveniences - every other tow, half a dozen in a row sometimes.
...but let's talk about how it's supposed to work...
I believe I just did.
When I hit lift, I do a few things to try and help out.
In ADDITION to making sure we only use the equipment with the longest track records?! Really, you help too much.
In lighter lift with softer edges, I just speed up... then I wait. When you hit it, I slow down and we climb together. This works most of the time.
Tell us about the times it DOESN'T work.
If we're in strong stuff however, simply pushing over isn't going to work... I'll still climb fast and you'll be left in the dust as you hit a sharp edge... not thrilling.
I dunno... When you're a pro toad with a bent pin barrel release on one shoulder and a Rooney Link on the other - no ability to pull in or get off or stay on when you want to it sounds like things could get rather thrilling for a few seconds.
Now, before we talk about technique two...
Remember... don't jam the bar out to try and catch me!
Close the gap... SMOOTHLY.
Is there some good reason people don't know basic shit BEFORE they get their ratings? I'm not hearing anything outside of an easy grasp by a goddam ten year old kid.
If you jam the bar out, it's the same scenario as the prop wash... high tension and a sharp force.
So? I have yet to see a video of so much as wings getting wobbled a tiny bit by propwash from ANYTHING on launch.
Ok, so what I do in strong stuff... is turn.
Zack Marzec...
Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC
Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke.
...turned a bit. Didn't seem to do him much good. Maybe...
Go to the outside of the turn and you speed up and climb...
Slide to the inside of the turn and the force goes decreases.
So, if we're slamming into lift and I'm going to shoot to the moon, I turn. This allows you to cut the turn to the inside if you need to.
NOTE HOWEVER that cutting the inside of turns as a practice is a bad idea.
Why?
Because you're attached to my tail.
If you cut the inside, you slow my turn. So if we're trying to turn and you're always sitting on the inside, we're going to have a lot of trouble turning. We're also going to turn very inefficiently.
You and the scum you work for and with are all totally full of shit. NO ONE - solo or tandem - can have ANY expectation of safe and reliable control of ANYTHING on ANY tow in ANY soarable conditions.
What I was talking about in regards to your wings being "Exponential" goes back to the nature of wind.
As we know, the power of the wind's force changes exponentially with it's speed.
So twice the wind is four times the force.
Four times the speed isn't eight times the force, it's sixteen.
And so on.
Oh, please do thirty-two. I so love thirty-two. Surely you must have that one stored up your ass with all the other pearls you're constantly producing.
On tow, you're being pulled through the sky. Changes in pitch (in particular) have an increasing effect on the tug... and not a linear increase... they ramp up very quickly.
From normal dead air tow tension exponentially all the way up to Rooney Link at twelve pounds over normal dead air tow tension.
If you've ever locked out, you know this intimately.
Exponentially intimately.
It doesn't smoothly get stronger and stronger... it gets a little stronger then a good bit stronger then "oh my god stronger".
Oh my god stronger. How much more of this can my airframe take stronger.
That's "exponential".
You're "exponential". If only you'd hit just a wee bit harder at Coronet Peak.
Sunny calls it "falling off the beach ball".
What did Sunny call Zack Marzec's standard aerotow weak link induced tumble back into the runway at Quest a year and a half ago? An inconvenience?
Standing on a gigantic beach ball... take a step to the left... you tip a little bit... take an other and you tip a lot... take an other and you're falling off the ball.
Since, of course, you have no option for stepping off the beach ball at a time of your choosing - as John Claytor so graphically demonstrated a bit over a month ago.
Our brains don't instinctively work that way.
"OUR" brains? Whatever load of shit you're packing up there works only to learn an occasional word like "exponentially" so you can beat it to death and impress the dregs who listen to you with the keenness of your intellect.
I got news for ya, shithead... When a monkey falls out of a tree at the end of the first second he's sixteen feet closer to the ground. At the end of the next he's dropped four times that. FUNCTIONAL brains of everything that evolved on land DO *INSTINCTIVELY* work that way. A Wart Hog knows that he'll hit four times as hard after a six foot drop as he will after a three foot drop and governs his actions accordingly. He also demonstrates superior brain functionality by refraining from inserting "exponential" into every other sentence.
So when people make what they consider to just be a "big" input, on my end, it's huge...
Want a REALLY huge input made on your end? Bend over.
...and on the weaklink, it's huge as well.
Yep... On "THE" weak link it's REALLY huge - like landing a triple Axel on quarter inch ice.
REAL aviation:
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
Flight Park Mafia aviation:
Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney
Your aircraft protects weak links against overloading.
Well, that's my best stab at that stuff.
Oh, please don't stop now. See if you can blather on for twenty pages - the way you've done for "Landings".
Hopefully it makes some sense.
Sure it will - regardless of the fact that it's totally devoid of any. All aerotowing problems solved. On to the current Ebola virus outbreak.
You just keep pulling stuff outta your ass and your target audiences will just keep gobbling it up, telling you how wonderful it was, and begging for more.
Get back to us in three months and show us some evidence of this having made the slightest positive difference for ONE PERSON.
It's ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC. Now all those people who don't track level behind the tug, the ones we never see any videos of, will start tracking level behind the tug, and well start seeing videos of them doing that.
I would like to emphasize something and add something.
I so hope your contributions will further address issues of exponentiality.
I agree with Jim about the importance of managing the tow line tension.
And protecting the Rooney Link.
I believe that it may be the most important thing.
Ya know what *I* believe, asshole? I BELIEVE that:
- when you've:
-- just had somebody seriously crashed and injured at your operation in an incident that would've looked a lot like THIS:
pro toad incidents at other mainstream operations within the previous seventeen months that you don't waste bandwidth telling people how to fix problems they don't have and wouldn't matter worth a warm bucket of piss if they did.
Welcome to hang gliding. A Bill Priday or Kunio Yoshimura runs off a ramp without his glider and I one hundred percent guarantee you that within 48 hours the focus of the discussion will be on making sure your helmet's buckled.
- assholes in hang gliding discussions who start off sentences with "I BELIEVE" never know what the fuck they're talking about.
It takes a lot less tension than we think...
- Ditto times five for assholes in hang gliding who tell us what "WE" THINK.
- What do "WE" "THINK" normal tow tension ranges actually are? The aerotow industry and its lackeys bend over backwards to make sure that actual tow tension figures and weak link strengths are all matters of opinions, open to discussion and interpretation.
...and this can be seen most readily while towing in smooth air.
Which is the only kind of air it's relatively safe to tow in flying Industry Standard releases, standard aerotow weak links, pro toad bridles, Dragonfly tow mast breakaway protectors, tug drivers ready to make a good decision in the interest of your safety.
By keeping the tension low we reduce our potential for lockout...
- BULLSHIT. You reduce your potential for lockout by:
-- staying in position
-- using a:
--- properly trimmed two point bridle which allows you to stay or get back into position
--- release that doesn't stink on ice for the rare occasion when you can't stay or get back into position
- What's a lockout?
-- Just stay inside the Cone of Safety. You'll be fine.
-- If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
...reduce our work load, and make it easier on the tug pilot.
What's your point? To KEEP our tension low, reduce our work load, and make it easier on the goddam fuckin' tug driver we stay level and centered behind the tug. So you're saying stay level and centered behind the tug. Duh.
I would like to add that it is important to understand the relationship between the tug and the glider being towed.
And I would like to add that if you're halfway serious about reducing our work load and making it easier on the goddam fuckin' tug driver is use a goddam one and a half G Tad-O-Link that doesn't break when it's supposed to so's you can get up in ONE launch instead of THREE - asshole.
If the glider slows down...
...the tug slows down. Ignoring swinging to the in and outsides of turns and brief corrections to get level the glider and tug are ALWAYS flying at the same speed. The glider can't come off the cart at Mach 5 unless the tug is also going Mach 5. Care to pull your nose out of Rooney's ass long enough to make him explain that issue?
...and increases the tow line tension it puts a lot more drag on the tug and its climb will slow.
No. The tug will keep going the same speed, the tow force will increase EXPONENTIALLY, and the gliders wings will be torn off.
Conversely if the glider reduces the tension by speeding up the tug can climb faster.
Even the total fucking idiots who typically fly tugs at least can figure out how to climb most efficiently after about a minute into their first tow. If the glider speeds up he's moving down relative to the tug. There's gonna be a momentary reduction in tension during which the tug will accelerate forward and upwards BUT - if the tug:
- does nothing that will not be a sustainable situation. The glider's gonna be trying to pass directly underneath the tug and - what with issues of attachments, bridles - things are gonna get ugly well before that happens.
- lowers his nose and maintains the same power to adjust to the speed and position the glider's selected they're gonna cover more ground and less altitude per minute so's it's gonna make for a longer more boring wait in the line back at the airport.
- lowers his nose and reduces power to match his previous angle of attack... I dunno... How's the idiot on the glider gonna respond to that one?
If the glider gets high on the tug rather than aggressively trying to get back down...
Zack Marzec got high on the tug and I one hundred percent guarantee you he was aggressively TRYING to get back down. Any thoughts on why...
Is he not holding the bar sufficiently far back from normal trim position?
...the glider pilot can speed up smoothly enough to reduce the line tension. The glider will come down slowly but more importantly the reduction of drag on the tug will let it climb faster helping to get back in proper position. If the glider gets low on tow the glider pilot can slow down smoothly increasing the line tension. This will result in the glider climbing faster but also the tug will now climb slower making it easier to get back into position.
Who the fuck cares? On the kinds of days on which we most wanna go up the thermal turbulence is gonna kick our asses all over the sky while we struggle to keep things together and the tension's gonna be all over the goddam map. People who have any business launching in that shit are gonna do what it takes to keep things together, within the confines of their bullshit equipment they're doing it right, there's no evidence that they're NOT doing it right.
I got on the flight line at a little after 1pm behind Sammi. She had a sledder. Then the tandem glider called rank and went ahead of me. The tandem broke a weak link and it took a while to sort out a new weak link. I finally towed around 1:30 and also broke a link at 450'. Back to the end of the line. Actually, my wife Karen let my cut in front of her. Bertrand and Sammi towed again. Each having sledder. The cirrus had moved in and things did not look good. Again I arrived at the front of the line only to have the tandem call dibs. And then the tug needed gas. I thought I would never get into the air...
That's the fuckin' alpha elephant in the room that none of you Rooney Reality teat suckers has the balls and/or brains to mention. Three mentions of the focal point of the safe towing system, all by Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney in his first post:
Towline tension is a very important idea.
It's especially relevant to weak links, although it's important to many things in towing.
Shockloading weaklinks breaks them... that' the idea. Hitting the prop wash... is well "hitting" something. If you're high drag because you're pushing out, you hit with far more force.
So when people make what they consider to just be a "big" input, on my end, it's huge... and on the weaklink, it's huge as well.
How is that possible to write so much ..and say NOTHING !?
That's his forte. Incessant moronic babbling, ZERO substance, trying to sound intelligent, succeeding with you fuckin' douchebags, getting his dick sucked.
Tell me what his point was in referencing weak links three times? He knows better than to ever try to say anything of substance about them again because in the post Marzec discussions he got his balls ripped off and handed back to him on a platter. He was hit by the fuckin' Rooney Shit avalanche of the stupidity, inconsistencies, contradictions, cons, lies he'd been building up for the previous decade - along with the problem of the doubled 130 and orange 200 Russell Brown and Morningside had suddenly decided they were happy with.
The beta elephants are bridles and releases. Not one hint of a mention of either. Same reasons.
Wow, so this is what I get when I try to be civil?
Oh well, very nice. Enjoy being pissed. I don't care.
As they often say here on the internet....
Pics or it didn't happen.
I did "bother" to look at your pics. They're cryptic at best. How would I know they were component shots otherwise? Wasting pixels? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Riiiiight. Pics or it didn't happen pal.
I bring up the Oz Forum cuz I seriously believe you fear peer review.
It's easy to rant and rave here on this group because most here are very civil and there's no moderation. Not so over at Oz. There are also very highly qualified individuals lurking there. I honestly think you're afraid.
But of course you'll have an excuse for not going there.
Why do you think your sleazy little bitch is posting here on the dinky little Cragin Show and not over at Oz where there are very highly qualified individuals lurking? Couldn't be because they're actually ARE several very highly qualified individuals - Mike Lake, Zack C, Ridgerodent, Freedomspyder, Swift (even Jonathan has an occasional lapse into lucidity) - still lurking below the waves and the last feeding frenzy wasn't a terribly pleasant experience for him?
Compare/Contrast his Davis and Cragin Show posting records over the course of the past five and a half years since I started getting eliminated as a threat to my "peers". Can there be any question that he gravitates to the environments in which he's most free to run his mouth with the least fear of being subjected to reality checking?
Tom McGowan - 2014/07/02 01:58:46 UTC
Jim and Larry
This is great stuff.
EXCELLENT stuff. And, if you enjoyed that, be sure to read Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's...
January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone.
...Wiki-stone carvings on landings. He tells you just what you want to hear with absolute authority there as well.
Thanks for writing all this up. I think that we should re-post this every spring as we start the tow season.
stays locked down and perpetually drifting back from Page 92 (second from the top, 3104 hits at present) 'cause:
- there's a lot of material in it that isn't just what you want to hear
- it's a blatant violation of international hang gliding regulations to challenge, discuss, think about conventional weak link doctrine
I will keep all this in mind when I am towing at Big Spring!
Yeah. And make sure you use a weak link provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers (whatever the fuck that means (funny they won't specify anything until you're about to put a glider on the cart)). Whatever it is, it'll have been carefully and precisely calibrated to break when it's supposed to so it won't really matter if you come off the cart like THIS:
But don't just take my or Davis's word for it. Give at a couple of tests like that. Don't worry. You'll be fine! These things have unbelievably long track records.
Also make sure you continue using two carabiners so's you'll be OK if one of them breaks and your bent pin release and six foot pro toad bridle just because.
Fuck all you guys.
---
2014/07/05 18:45:00 UTC
DAMN! Missed Antoine in the Davis Show sharks list upon submission. (He's in there now.) But I had him quoted in the post as a Rooney attacker so I'm off the hook.
I'm requesting advice on surface and aero-tow release solutions for HG towing using the (seated) 'suprone' configuration ...
There are some very experienced folks here at the org. I would appreciate any constructive suggestions. ... this is related to the 'experimentation' thread.
John Glime - 2009/04/13 18:09:32 UTC
Salt Lake City
Not being constructive? There is one person who has put more thought and time into releases than anyone. That person is Tad. He explains the pros and cons to every release out there. I gave you the link to more release information than the average person could ever digest, and I didn't get a thank you. Just you bitching that we aren't being constructive. What more could you want? He has created something that is a solution, but no one is using it... apparently you aren't interested either. So what gives??? What do you want us to tell you? Your concerns echo Tad's concerns, so why not use his system? Every other system out there has known flaws.
And where do you go for help on releases? That thread, by the way, was locked down - without a whisper of protest from you or anyone else - by the head pigfucker five years ago from Friday (Independence Day) 'cause I claimed that a Quest Link pop results in an increase in angle of attack.
Allen Sparks - 2013/02/04 00:06:24 UTC
Tad Eareckson - 2013/02/03 21:50:59 UTC
...and all I care about is that it wasn't OUR Zack.
What a callous, heartless, sad comment.
... and if it were 'your' Zack, I have zero doubt that you would exploit his misfortune to further your twisted agenda.
There are some very experienced folks here at the org.
Experienced at WHAT?
- Clicking "Sink This!" buttons?
- Pissing all over thousands of hours of solid engineering work to produce safe solid solutions?
- Praying for the family and friends of the last pooch screwer who died doing what he loved?
- Queer baiting?
- Jerking each other off?
- Characterizing any agenda to replace Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney opinion based hang gliding with something reality based as twisted?
Name ONE of those brain dead, Rooney Linking, pin bending, easy reaching, Jack Show motherfuckers who has any experience developing ANYTHING more flight critical than a camera mount.
The only name I can come up with is Scott C. Wise and...
No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.
Well... Mike Lake, getoffrelease, one or two others... But they're not really Jack Show motherfuckers and they ARE related people.
2014/07/06 10:34:00 UTC
Just noticed you deleted your post. (Seems like you do a lot of that sorta thing - along with your videos.) Whatsamattah? Was the fact that you'd gotten zero responses from those very experienced folk there at the org a bit embarrassing?
I'm surprised that you didn't AT LEAST hear from Paul Hurless. Fellow Nevadan, highly experienced at...
I found your conclusion that Tad is a "whack job", and that because of that, you find it justifiable and even "entertaining sometimes to bait that type" to be an indicator of sadistic tendencies.
Such comments make me wonder if those who make them also go around diagnosing then kick sick puppies.
Tad's goal has been to make the towing of hang gliders safer. You can disagree with how he approaches that goal, but he should be respected for being motivated enough to make a serious effort in that direction.
Ridicule him ONLY if you can do better.
Paul Hurless - 2009/05/15 01:43:43 UTC
Yes, I can do better. It took me all of two minutes to come up with a simple (darn, the KISS principal keeps popping up) system that only has two moving parts; the cord to actuate it and the actual release that holds onto the tow line. It's almost completely internal in the control bar and a downtube, only emerging at the control bar for the hand to actuate it and at the top of the downtube where it goes to the release mechanism. No pulleys, springs, or bungees needed. If you are doubting me I could send you a sketch.
...talking about what a great release designer he is. Maybe you should PM him. Maybe the reason he didn't respond is 'cause his his solution was just so brilliant that it would humiliate all the other designers.
P.S. The REAL reason that thread was locked down was 'cause I was dead right, Jackass was dead wrong, Michael Bradford was confirming same, stupid pigfuckers like Jackass, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Davis Dead-On Straub are scared shitless of people with triple digit IQs.
My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.
This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.
See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.
But then there's a crowd that "knows better". To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".
(Holy god, the names I've been called.)
I have little time for these people.
It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things.
See if you can get him to tell you who the few people who are actually working on things are. (For some reason none of us muppets ever get to hear any actual names but I'm sure you'll have better luck - if you promise not to divulge anything anyway.)
Find out from these few people who are actually working on things what they're actually working on. This has just gotta be REALLY MAJOR 'cause:
- Quest Air hasn't addressed it and they've been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years - and twenty years ago their equipment didn't suck nearly as much as it does now. (They hadn't then figured out what a great idea it would be to rotate the spinnaker shackle ninety degrees to shift the load from the apex:
- Whatever things they're working on are so important that it saddens Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe (Tad's Hole in the Ground people, I'm guessing) mask the few people who are actually working on those things.
- The few people who are actually working on those things have been working on them for AT THE VERY LEAST over sixteen months (but much more likely over a couple decades) now with nothing to show for it. So that tells us that problems they're trying to address are fuckin' HUGE - meaning fuckin' dangerous as hell - and the engineering fixes are NEARLY insurmountable. We know they're not TOTALLY insurmountable because these few people are still working on them and we know that these few people are head and shoulders the best of the best because otherwise they'd have brought additional similarly qualified and talented people into the project - the way NASA does when they wanna put another rover on Mars.
Give that a try. I'll keep thinking about options.
P.S. Maybe you could get Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney to tell you when the few people who are actually working on things actually started working on things so's we can clear up that issue and get a feel for how many centuries it would take a team of us muppets to duplicate the progress they've made to date.
As with many changes in avaition, change is approached with a bit of skepticism. Rightfully so. There's something to be said for "tried and true" methods... by strapping on somehting new, you become a test pilot. The unknown and unforseen become your greatest risk factors. It's up to each of us to individually asses the risks/rewards for ourselves.
Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.
I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.
The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.
That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.
Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????
Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
The primary requirement for introducing safe towing equipment is that it have an extremely long track record - always has been, always will be. So they're almost certainly working on plans to establish a long track record before putting it into the air.
My guess is that they're working on a time machine. Go back twenty years, give it to somebody you know is gonna die anyway - no shortage of those people - start racking up numbers. If the person survives the fatal lockout - GREAT! You keep racking up numbers. If he doesn't - big fuckin' deal. You've got the same number of flights transfered from the Industry Standard stuff to the "new" designs and the fatal crash still counts for the purpose of track record length.
So if you have any thoughts on time machine design...
- There's not one mention in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden, of a no-reach release being of any advantage.
- Quest Air produces and uses only easy-reach releases and they've been perfecting aerotowing for over twenty years.
- Davis Dead-On Straub is very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.
- Tad has already worn out his welcome on the Oz Report over his AT release mechanism, and so it seems he has come there to preach his gospel of safety according to Tad.
- Bobby Bailey designs only easy-reach releases and he's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit.
- There are ZERO no-reach releases designed and used for hang glider towing by any mainstream operations this side of the old Iron Curtain - traveling east or west.
- Center of Mass Towing - introduced in 1981 - eliminated the need for no-reach releases because it's autocorrecting for roll and thus lockout proof.
- There hasn't been one single serious crash or fatality report since the introduction of Center of Mass Towing indicating that a no-reach release would've made a positive outcome any more likely.
- Guess what? The no-reach release shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.
- We know that easy-reach releases are best for extremely dangerous towing circumstances because all the people who've been severely injured or killed in towing incidents had chosen to use easy-reach releases.
- If you fail to maintain the correct tow position the Rooney Link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
- A Rooney Link works best in a lockout situation. If you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button just let it out. The glider will pitch up, break the Rooney Link, and you fly away. Instant hands free release.
Find something better to worry about - like a good hook knife and the best way to safety it to your harness.
I'm requesting advice on surface and aero-tow release solutions for HG towing using the (seated) 'suprone' configuration ...
There are some very experienced folks here at the org. I would appreciate any constructive suggestions. ... this is related to the 'experimentation' thread.
Ya know, Allen... Joe Street (getoffrelease) was posting on that dump a little over a week ago about a release... http://www.getoffrelease.com/
...he put a lot (and I put a fair bit) of really good careful work into. It's the ONLY safe aerotow release that you can purchase (don't have to build in yourself)...
I've been using one for nearly two years and consider it the best commercially available release. It took a little experimentation to get it set up optimally initially, and I think the spring is too heavy, but I see he now offers a lighter spring as an option.
...and it would be a no brainer to adapt it for your suprone surface requirements. (Clamp the actuator up on the downtube at hand position, anchor the mechanism at a hip, run a short bridle off the other hip and through the tow ring to the mechanism. Maybe have Joe build a short version for that action.) You could even rig it to be stowed for a long flight to eliminate the drag.
It's being handed to you on a silver platter. Have you bothered to even look at it?
If you really give a rat's ass about your own safety and that of your idiot Jack Show buddies you'll get one and heavily endorse it.
EXCELLENT idea! And make sure:
