Poll on weaklinks
That's alright, Brad. We have enough lunatic crap posted by enough other total assholes to keep us backed up for the next ten years. I'm taking you way out of turn because this one is such a gem.Brad Gryder - 2013/03/06 03:33:45 UTC
Zack, sorry for the delayed response, but I had to do some work and I'm just now able to dive back into this here furball.
I'd rather you whipstall back into the runway like Zack Marzec did 'cause it's really hard for most of the douchebags who fly hang gliders to get some of these concepts without seeing a couple dozen people splattered on video.New bumper sticker - "I'd rather be dog fighting".
Here's a thought, Brad. Shut the fuck up and start listening to what Zack has to say about your goddam tow mast.Here I'll attempt to answer your questions regarding the Dragonfly's tow mast:
Oh, the weak link is SOMEHOW bypassed.Ok, the "wrap ups" I was referring to are those really rare ones where the weak link is somehow bypassed.Zack C - 2013/03/05 18:45:16 UTC
Correct me if I'm wrong, but tug weak links are usually placed on the bridle above the tow ring (on the same side of it as the mast). Therefore, if the tug's weak link breaks and the bridle wraps on the tow ring, the tow mast weak link won't help. If the tug triggers the release and the bridle wraps, the tug's weak link will break before the mast. I don't see how the tow mast weak link provides protection from wraps.
Here is the relevant REQUIREMENT for weak link installation from the 2009/03 version of the USHGA SOPs before the scumbags in the Towing Committee started gutting things to legalize the dangerous moronic practices you Dragonfly shitheads have institutionalized:
So you tell me how it is physically possible for a 2009/03 legal front end weak link to be BYPASSED.The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
10. Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
-B. Aero Vehicle Requirements
05. A weak link must be placed at both ends of the tow line.
- Yeah? Who's it keeping safe? If it's a safety fuse how come it scares me shitless?This is when the D-fly's break-away mast then steps up to become the new primary safety fuse.
- Oh! It's the new primary SAFETY FUSE! Now your towline tension is limited to FOUR HUNDRED POUNDS! And what could POSSIBLY happen to ANY Dragonfly with just four hundred pounds pulling back, up, down, left, right on it's extreme back end?
Lemme tell ya sumpin', asshole...
See this Dragonfly?
It had a safety fuse between it and the solo glider almost twice as safe as the one Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey built into the Dragonfly. So tell me how it got to be upside down on the runway with a bunch of state cops standing around it scribbling notes.
Oh. So it's a really rare event and you've only seen it happen once and the only way it can happen is if you violate the SOPs and flush common sense down the toilet but you've got to implement a fix which subjects me to being killed in EXACTLY the way Jeremiah Thompson and Arlan Birkett were EVERY TIME I FLY.I've actually only seen this type of wrap-up happen once.
Oh. So you've gotten older and smarter and done things to decrease risk to YOU. Glad to hear it.In my younger more risky days we used to do what I'd call 'extreme aerotowing'.
Similar to the bullshit Chris Bulger pulled with a piece of shit release on his end just before tumbling and being ejected from his trike?This is where the tug would do real aerobatics while the glider pilot tried to hold on.
- A "strong" weak link meaning anything over 130 pounds Greenspot.[and yes, the glider pilot had a "strong" weaklink during these wild events]
- Why? Did the glider want to make HIS OWN decisions about when to stay on and get off? My, what a quaint concept.
A few more thoughts...Anyway, after one such event the tug landed and somehow the tow bridle was wrapped around the mast and tied in a knot, with the weak link no longer in the load path.
- Tow the glider in the SAFEST - rather than the MOST DANGEROUS - manner possible. (Note that people like Bill Bennett, Mike Del Signore, Rob Richardson, Mike Haas, Robin Strid, James Simpson, Steve Elliot, Roy Messing, Lois Preston, and Zack Marzec were all behind people trying to stay in position to optimize things for the glider but all wound up dead anyway.
- Put weak links on BOTH ends of the bridle (no, despite what you've heard from Quest and Florida Ridge, they don't double their strengths in this configuration) AND/OR one at the front end of the towline (just like it says (said) in the fucking manual).
- Since, apparently, the ONLY way to tie the bridle to the tow mast is to do stupid shit - to use the plane for useless bullshit for which it was not designed - maybe it's a good idea not to do stupid shit and instead use it to tow gliders up to workable thermal altitude.
- Lemme tell ya sumpin' - asshole...
Say you were using a 200 pound weak link to limit the towline tension to 400 pounds - which is all you can get with the breakaway. If the bridle ties itself in a knot to the tow mast half way up from the breakaway (top of the vertical stabilizer/rudder) your towline limitation is now 800 pounds. If the bridle ties itself to the tow mast a quarter way up your towline limitation is now 1600 pounds. Good freakin' luck.
- Totally awesome, dude, the way you matured from the days when you'd beef up weak links so you could do aerobatics with gliders in tow to the present point at which you're so safety conscious that you feel no obligation whatsoever to tow me, doing everything I possibly can to stay in position dead center behind you for my own benefit if not yours and armed to the teeth (literally) with releases I can blow in a nanosecond while maintaining maximum possible control of my glider through thermal conditions with anything heavier than a Marzec Link.
Already I despise whatever's coming next.What makes the most sense to me...
Yep... Nailed it....is letting the tug pilot decide what weak link strength he wants to use.
Of course it does. You fly a tug.
But I fly a glider and what makes the most sense to me is selecting a weak link a small notch over the middle of the FAA safety/legal range (especially after seeing what happened to Zack flying at 1.0 Gs (flying weight) and having the fucking tug driver conform to the fucking FAA REGULATIONS - ASSHOLE.
Regardless of whether or not it's a dangerous violation of FAA regulations and a configuration which has killed people because you know that you can do whatever the fuck you feel like and nothing will ever be enforced and you'll never be held accountable for anybody you kill.I own my own tug and I do decide what weak link strength I use.
And, of course, to piss all over FAA safety regulations - as discussed above.Other tug pilots flying my tug are free to suggest other weak link strengths, but as the owner of the plane I reserve the right to agree or disagree.
Gee Brad, if I didn't know you fuckin' sociopaths as well as I do I'd thunk that you'd be more worried about being responsible for the safety of the guy who's paying you to getting him aloft than whether or not your tow mast breakaway gets bent.Ultimately the decision comes down to who is responsible for the equipment.
- Oh good, aviation based upon the FEELINGS of the halfwitted douchebags you typically find flying Dragonflies.No one is forcing the tug pilot to fly, and he has a right (and an obligation) not to fly if he feels the weak link is unsafe or inappropriate.
- Lemme tell ya sumpin', asshole... anybody on either end of the towline who takes off thinking that a weak link coming into play will be a safety factor in ANY flight has no fuckin' business taking off.
- Yeah Brad, no question whatsoever that the lighter the weak links at both ends of the towline the safer things are - FOR THE TUG. And it's also WAY safer - FOR THE TUG - if he loses the towline along with the glider.
- And that's OBVIOUSLY *ALL* you're concerned with.
- Unacceptable weakening which has some chance of killing the glider and a REAL GOOD chance of crashing it?It's also the tug pilot's responsibility to change the weaklink when necessary to avoid unacceptable weakening due to wear and tear.
- Is it also the tug pilot's responsibility to comply with FAA aerotowing regulations?
- Name something that's EVER enforced in hang glider aerotowing. Every time somebody gets killed as a consequence of violating a USHGA regulation the only thing that happens is that the regulation gets deleted.As you are probably aware, there are sometimes offical protocols that are stated as "required" but are not always enforced.The built-in weak link forces us to use a weak link to protect the weak link. As a result, we can't even increase glider pilot's weak link strengths to 200 lbs without being stronger than the tug's weak link.
- We're not talkin' "official protocols" here - motherfucker. We're talkin' LAWS.
Name somebody who tows anything BUT deadly junk with kills contributing to its track record. If you spend years engineering something bulletproof and try showing it to Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney he just starts walking away without looking at it, declares it to be funky shit, and refuses to tow you.I am aware of multiple tug owner/operators who will tow anything that's willing to pay the tow bill, regardless of the tail-end configuration.
I only know of one who couldn't save himself.Such tug pilots believe they can save themselves regardless of what does or doesn't happen on the ass-end of the line.
- He had an underbuilt piece of shit release that couldn't handle any tension.
- He set the situation up by making an abrupt hotdog maneuver for no reason in smooth air.
- The tension probably never exceeded what Zack Marzec's Rooney Link allowed before it vaporized and killed him.
- He didn't bother to take the parachute he had in the trailer up with him.
- He wasn't using a restraint system capable of keeping him connected to the trike.
I only know of three tugs that crashed with gliders in tow that affected outcomes.
- Two of them were engine failures - the tug equivalents of a Rooney Link pops.
- Nobody's talking about the cause of the other one.
- All of them were pulling solos with Rooney Links.
- In none of them did a Rooney Link blow - meaning that if they'd been using 6.0 G weak links the outcomes would've been EXACTLY the same.
- At least two of them could've been mitigated by faster releases.
Nobody's talkin' MEGA-Link - you unbelievably stupid pigfucker. We're talking about weak links:Buyer beware. Go ahead and pull out your MEGA-Link.
- the equivalent of what sailplanes use
- a half G south of what's legal
- ABOUT THE SAME AS YOU'RE USING NOW FOR TANDEMS
I'm guessing Zack Marzec was really caring as he was being blasted up to 150 feet and standing on his tail knowing just as well as his driver did what was just about to happen.Who cares?
Goddam right it is. And *I* as the PILOT IN COMMAND of MY AIRCRAFT wanna be in as much control of what happens to it as possible. I don't want any decisions being made by a piece of fishing line some douchebag at the other end of the rope is mandating, I don't want MY LEGAL WEAK LINK being neutralized by the ILLEGAL WEAK LINK of some douchebag at the other end of the rope, and I don't want some douchebag at the other end of the rope making any fucking good decisions in the interest of MY SAFETY - seeing as how damn near all you douchebags at the other end of the rope have made it abundantly clear that you have nothing but the utmost contempt for me, my equipment, my competence as a pilot, and my personal safety.It's your butt on the line back there.
You do your fuckin' job - LEGALLY - and let me do mine - WITHOUT INTERFERENCE.
- Yeah, you're forcing everybody up on illegally light weak links and crashing them and killing them for the sake of protecting your breakaway - big surprise. (I am SO HAPPY that the tow mast pulling half of Zack Marzec's tow tension came through that nasty freak accident unscathed and ready for more tows immediately after everybody got his story straight.)I actually don't personally know of one ever breaking.Has there ever been a single instance of a tow mast break being desirable?
- So what you're saying is that - even with tandems - there doesn't seem to be any record of one having a positive effect on the safety of ANY tow EVER.
- Thus NO MIDRANGE AND UP SOLO GLIDER can fly a midrange weak link without having it overriden by the tug's weak link and getting the rope because the tug's weak link is rated to protect the tug's tow mast breakaway which has NEVER ONCE IN THE FIELD been demonstrated to be of ANY USE.
- Start talkin' POUNDS - motherfucker.During a wild rodeo ride behind a tug we once slightly deformed one, but it didn't break before the "strong" weak link did.
- So you were always in control enough to continue the tow, you weren't locking out, but the structure that's supposed to be up to the job of towing the glider WASN'T - RIGHT?
But let's pack our parachutes, which, for all intents and purposes, are never needed by people other than assholes who blow aerobatics, so that they fall out of the containers and deploy about once every four flights 'cause... Who knows? We MIGHT be needing it sometime when it does and MIGHT not have been able to get to it fast enough.Similar to some other safety systems, it may never be needed.
- Oh good, more feelings from stupid pigfuckers.I do feel better, though, knowing it's there.
- I feel much better knowing mine's THERE too. I feel better because I know it WON'T blow in any reasonable situation like Zack Marzec was in but WILL blow before my glider's overloaded. Why do YOU feel better knowing it's there?
- Mine's around 473 pounds? What's yours?
- What can you be sure yours can do for you that you're sure mine can't do for you.
- Asshole.
It's like a fire protection sprinkler system that goes off over the Thanksgiving dinner when you light a couple of candles or a parachute that falls out of the container when you're crossing the forest, salt marsh, canyon, lake, interstate, powerlines, lava field, or crocodile infested river.It's sort of like a fire protection sprinkler system or a parachute...
Fire protection sprinkler systems have to be set so they DO NOT GO OFF unless there's something SERIOUSLY WRONG because if they do they can do tens of thousands of dollars worth of totally unnecessary damage in a matter of seconds.
There are NO PARACHUTES used for the safety of PILOTS that get deployed by anything other than DELIBERATE action by THE PILOTS.
WHAT DO *WE* *NEED* IT FOR?...in that we hope we never need it...
*I'* have a RELEASE I can use to get off tow when *I* deem it appropriate. The fuckin' weak link is there ONLY to protect MY aircraft from being overloaded in a situation in which I've demonstrated. And that ain't never gonna happen. 'Cause if I can't even manage the tow to the extent that that's anything more than the remotest of possibilities there's NO WAY IN HELL I can handle the most critical part of the flight - the launch - where there's no possibility of ANY weak link doing me any GOOD and a HUGE probability that a Rooney Link is gonna crash me.Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
YES. IN PLACE!!! UNTIL *NEEDED*!!! NOT GOING OFF AT RANDOM WHEN WE'VE GOT THINGS UNDER CONTROL AND KILLING US....but we know full well that we're safer WITH it in place...
And tell me how a two G weak link won't do that!...and ready to kick-in when required.
It's not the LENGTH. It's the EXASPERATING MIND BOGGLING *STUPIDITY*.Apologies for the long post.
Summary...
You will happily use equipment on your end which has on a fair number of occasions killed people on our end and subject us to a considerable risk of being killed EVERY FLIGHT because you THINK it might give you a slight edge in some undefined bizarre scenario which in the ENTIRE HISTORY of hang glider aerotowing HAS NEVER ONCE HAPPENED.
Damn I hope they've got a very special place in hell reserved for you assholes.
