Skyting demolition

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
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Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Skyting demolition

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Check this space later.
Or, if you like, start commenting on Donnell's Skyting newsletter series:
http://www.kitestrings.org/topic53.html
MikeLake
Posts: 65
Joined: 2011/02/24 20:07:11 UTC

Re: Skyting demolition

Post by MikeLake »

The problem with Skyting. (My UK perspective)

In the late '70s early '80s there were a few tow groups in the UK each group having their own equipment, methods and procedures.
Some were better than others but all were lumped into the same "Tow group" category.

At this time some groups even if still frame towing had some pretty good kit and methods.
Tow tensions were limited, weak-links were a last resort, releases worked, hard things didn't hit the pilot in the face and there were no strings, rings and loops to tangle.

When frame towing was superseded by body towing most of the hard won lessons were carried over.
However, the poorer tow groups carried over their poorer techniques and a fixed line fatality lead to a BHGA UK wide ban on ALL forms of towing.

What was needed at this time was some kind of order, authority, direction and confidence in towing.
Enter Skyting a system that promised and delivered the above.
BUT this was using mostly inferior equipment with some parts of the 'discipline' overriding well established safe techniques with inferior ones.

I would guess that this general course of events (but probably not the ban) played out in other parts of the world at about the same time.
New tow groups adopted Skyting and were grateful for it. It became the de facto standard with the bad bits still apparent some 30 years later.

It makes me smile when I hear experts commenting on towing and saying things like "We have developed".

If you take the hang gliding community as a whole a huge chunk do not tow and have little or no interest in towing.
Of those who do tow nearly all will simply use whatever equipment/methods available to them as instructed by their expert.
With a few exceptions the expert will have inherited whatever their expert mentors taught them.
Almost all of these original experts adopted Skyting in the early days, and this is where we are.

Yesterday I had a weak-link break. At a few hundred feet it was a non event, an inconvenience only.
When I launch I never worry too much about lockouts, face plants, my glider falling apart or the fact that I don't carry a hook knife.
What I DO worry about is my weak-link failing at 30' with perhaps a wing popping up a bit at the same time.
I endure (and risk) this on every takeoff. That's nearly 30 times in just the last couple of weeks or so.
On EVERY takeoff, by design and all for the want of an extra 30lbs or so on my weak-link.

One of the legacies of Skyting.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Skyting demolition

Post by Tad Eareckson »

The problem with Skyting. (My UK perspective)
The PROBLEMS (plural) with Skyting (my US perspective)...

Almost too overwhelming to begin to describe and the root of damn near everything that totally sucks in hang and para glider towing.

First off...

Mike, ya really oughta give THIS:

http://nhgc.wikidot.com/mike-lake

a good read sometime in order to know what you're talking about. There's some pretty good history in there.
In the late '70s early '80s there were a few tow groups in the UK each group having their own equipment, methods and procedures.
How terrible that must've been - no Industry Standard releases or standard aerotow weak links with huge track records. One wonders how anyone was able to survive.
Some were better than others but all were lumped into the same "Tow group" category.
Whereas today everything has been reduced to the lowest common denominator - so everyone knows exactly what to expect and his odds of survival - regardless of race, creed, religion, reflexes, or IQ. This is precisely why we fought and won (with just a wee bit of help from France) a revolution against you elitist bastards.
At this time some groups even if still frame towing had some pretty good kit and methods.
All of which Donnell decided to ignore and toss - along with everything that had ever been established in the world of conventional gliders and sailplanes - in his reinvention of aviation from scratch.
Tow tensions were limited...
Why bother? If you use a minimum of three hundred feet of eighth inch nylon parachute shroud line as your towline it's virtually impossible for tow tensions to fluctuate outside of whatever it is you desire.
...weak-links were a last resort...
That's INSANE! A simple and inexpensive strand of nylon fishing line which breaks at the desired tension limit before the glider gets out of control, stalls, or collapses is the focal point of a safe towing system and MUST be the FIRST resort. Dr. Trisa Tilletti assures us that Dr. Lionel D. Hewitt, professor of physics and developer of the two to one center-of-mass Skyting bridle for surface towing, is well respected for his knowledge of towing, bridles, and weak links. And the pilot and his release or, on about one out of five or ten flights, hook knife are the last resorts.
...releases worked...
Yeah, right. If releases worked why would we all be flying with weak links and hook knives? Asshole.
...hard things didn't hit the pilot in the face and there were no strings, rings and loops to tangle.
Booooring.
Everyone who lives dies, yet not everyone who dies, has lived. We take these risks not to escape life, but to prevent life escaping us.
Might as well stay home and play checkers.
When frame towing was superseded by body towing most of the hard won lessons were carried over.
Not in Kingsville, Texas. Donnell just assumed that since everyone else was too stupid to use a two to one bridle nothing else they were doing could possibly have any legitimacy.
However, the poorer tow groups carried over their poorer techniques and a fixed line fatality...
Gotta use nylon. Can't go wrong with that stuff.
...lead to a BHGA UK wide ban on ALL forms of towing.
That's ridiculous. In the US whenever we kill someone towing we just send a report to USHGA's lawyer...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting
Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/30 23:21:56

Here's how it really works:

- Member submits an accident report. Could be the pilot who had the accident, or some other witness.

- Accident report is sent to Tim to maintain legal privilege. Tim reviews the report and determines whether there's significant legal risk associated with it. He may redact certain parts (personally identifiable information, etc.) if in his opinion exposure of that information poses a risk to us. If the report is very risky, he may decide that it can't be shared further, and will notify the Executive Director about it.
...who buries it...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1081
Platform towing /risk mitigation / accident
Sam Kellner - 2012/07/03 02:25:58 UTC

No, you don't get an accident report.
End of problem.
What was needed at this time was some kind of order, authority, direction and confidence in towing.
Nah...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=463
Davis Straub's "Oz Report" Conflict of Interest
Bob Kuczewski - 2011/03/09 02:33:49 UTC

This is going to sound cold, but I believe people have a right to make their own choices. I don't want a "nanny state" where anyone is telling me what I can and can't do ... for my own good. The sport of hang gliding would surely not exist if that thinking were carried to its logical extreme.
We don't need no stinking kind of order, authority, direction and confidence in towing. The sport of hang gliding would surely not exist if that thinking were carried to its logical extreme.
Enter Skyting a system that promised and delivered the above.
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=818
Peter (Link Knife) Birren
Peter Birren - 2011/11/29 15:02:20 UTC

Yup, Don's 12 points are as good today as they were when he wrote 'em... and you're benefiting from his being the first to establish towing guidelines and considerations.
And exit the Brooks Bridle which - to this day - kicks the asses of ALL of the lethal Industry Standard shit that one encounters at ALL US aerotow operations.
BUT this was using mostly inferior equipment...
It was unquestionably the most dangerous crap EVER sent up on any kind of aircraft by anyone whose intent was not to crash the plane and kill everyone on it. And I am one hundred percent serious when I say that and I speak from personal experience. That equipment demolished gliders - sometimes before they even hit the ground.
...with some parts of the 'discipline' overriding well established safe techniques with inferior ones.
With the overwhelming percentage of the 'discipline' overriding every last vestige of ten year old kid common sense.
I would guess that this general course of events (but probably not the ban) played out in other parts of the world at about the same time.
- Donnell believed in and pushed what he was doing, did a lot of work typing up and photocopying his newsletter and circulated it all over the world - US, UK, Canada, Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Norway, Sweden, Germany, Israel, Netherlands, Costa Rica, Poland.

- For damn near everyone, his system was the first experience of getting the tow tension off of the bottom of the control frame and onto the pilot. From a towing physics standpoint the two to one Hewett Bridle did EXACTLY what the Brooks Bridle did but - in glaring contrast to the elegant latter - employed a lethal tangle of Rube Goldberg / Heath Robinson strings and heavy hardware store metal to meet the objectives.

- Nevertheless, the increase in control authority and decrease in roll instability afforded by running two thirds of the tow tension to the pilot and one third to the keel in front of the hang point was so dramatic that everyone immediately started guzzling the whole pitcher of Kool-Aid and ignored the fact that going:
-- to a single point a third of the way up the suspension from the pilot - à la Brooks Bridle - did the same thing;
-- all to the pilot or fifty/fifty pilot/keel were both close enough to two to one that the differences really didn't merit talking about.

- Since Donnell was a university physics professor everyone, Yours Truly included, figured he knew what the fuck he was talking about and didn't check his math - which can be fairly easily torn to shreds by anybody who got through high school on merit.
New tow groups adopted Skyting and were grateful for it.
Like heroin. Makes you feel so good so fast that you're not looking at the whole picture.
It became the de facto standard with the bad bits still apparent some 30 years later.
It's the foundation for all the crap with which Dr. Tilletti has been clogging Hang Gliding magazine lately.
It makes me smile when I hear experts commenting on towing and saying things like "We have developed".
It makes me...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap
Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC

Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:51:12 UTC

Ok, here's something to chew on, while we're on the topic.
It's not going to taste nice, but it's the god's honest truth.

It's not going to be nice because it's an affront to ego... which goes over like a lead balloon, but again... too bad, it's the truth.

See, the "everyone's opinion is valid" stuff is for the birds.
No. We don't consider everyone's opinion on these topics.

You're late to the game. Very late.
We've been at this a long freaking time. You haven't.
All these "ideas" that people propose, we've already been through... a number of times.

Don't you think that the people that do this day in and day out have maybe... I don't know... ALREADY THOUGHT OF THAT?

We did.
A long time ago.
Not only have we thought this stuff through seven different ways to sunday, we've tested a bunch of this shit too. And some of it's the stuff that you haven't even gotten around to realizing yet.
...wanna beat faces into unrecognizable pulps.
If you take the hang gliding community as a whole a huge chunk do not tow and have little or no interest in towing.
Speaking on behalf of the US...

Towing is HUGE east of the Rockies and even in all those really bumpy states between the plains and the Pacific it's a pretty substantial force. Plus you have scooter towing replacing the training hill as people's introduction nowadays.
Of those who do tow nearly all will simply use whatever equipment/methods available to them as instructed by their expert.
Nearly?
With a few exceptions the expert will have inherited whatever their expert mentors taught them.
Experts on tying standard aerotow weak links, recovering from standard aerotow weak link failures, using standard aerotow weak links as instant hands free releases, and warning people how - even if they're not instantly killed in a lockout - their wings will be torn off if they use anything thirty pounds heavier than a standard aerotow weak link.
Almost all of these original experts adopted Skyting in the early days, and this is where we are.
It IS the carcinogen that's been rotting out string powered hang gliding for over three decades.
Yesterday I had a weak-link break.
Thank you very much, BHPA.
At a few hundred feet it was a non event, an inconvenience only.
Yeah. That's why Dr. Trisa Tilletti wrote THIS:
The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.
in the rating requirements. They don't wanna be around on a low level simulation in rough air.
When I launch I never worry too much about lockouts, face plants, my glider falling apart or the fact that I don't carry a hook knife.
EXACTLY!

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/22 22:31:35 UTC

Nail on the head Brian!

The simple fact is this. The only reason anyone even gives Tad the time of day is that they want to believe him. Why? Because they don't like to be inconvenienced by a weaklink break. That's it.

Sure, everyone digs around for other reasons to believe, but at the heart of it, it's convenience.
No one is actually scared to fly with a standard weaklink. They may say they are, but deep down inside, they're not.

Tad loves to speak of himself as a scientifically minded person. Yet he ignores a data pool that is at minimum three orders of magnitude higher than his. It is thus that I ignore him.
It's BECAUSE you're using a weak link that blows at a few hundred feet where it's a non event, an inconvenience only that when you launch you never worry too much about lockouts, face plants, your glider falling apart, or the fact that you don't carry a hook knife (although why any halfway sane person would tow without a hook knife is totally beyond me).
What I DO worry about is my weak-link failing at 30' with perhaps a wing popping up a bit at the same time.
If you were a REAL pilot...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?
Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/07/04 12:13:01 UTC

Bullshit.

a) only the pilot can let the angle of attack increase when you lose tension. Thats 100% on the pilot. You are simply wrong and misleading again.

b) "And if your angle of attack was way too high to begin with..." Which should never be the case or youre making a pilot error. Again, you are misleading people.

This is the problem I have with you. You attempt to fallaciously attribute pilot errors to issues of mechanical towing devices or other things.
...something like that could NEVER happen.
I endure (and risk) this on every takeoff. That's nearly 30 times in just the last couple of weeks or so.
Stop whining.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Marc Fink - 2007/05/25 00:26:39 UTC

Excellent points, Danny. We tow with an elastic polypro system in Maine--which I personally don't like cause I hate the "rubber band effect" (especially on tandems)--but others like the "forgiving nature" of the energy absorbtion.

There's yet a third variable missing from the discussion so far which I think is crucial and gets to the core of this discussion.

That is the drag of the glider itself through the air, which, depending upon many variables, can rapidly increase or decrease the pressures on the tow system.

And I say tow system--because I don't believe that you can look at this problem through one of isolation of just one component and expect that adjusting that one component can adjust for failings in other aspects of the system.

I suspect he'll kill me for mentioning it--but Larry Huffman has never broken a weaklink in 11 years of aerotowing. Is he lucky, beating the odds somehow, or only goes and tows in perfect calm conditions? I think not. Rather, he recognizes that safe towing is not a question of where you keep the tug or glider as an absolute priority--but that the overall safety of the tow has to do with towline pressure management. Thus, the pilot needs to anticipate what will happen to the pressure on the line and take whatever corrective action is necessary to correct a potential overbuild of pressure. It takes alot of skill to be able to respond with the right degree at the right time to prevent oscillations in tow pressures. These typically happen when transitioning spots of lift/turbulence where most likely the rising and falling of the tug and glider will be out of synch and therefore the proper input needs to be in anticipation of that lag.
Use of a really safe weak link will force you to improve your towing skills.
On EVERY takeoff, by design and all for the want of an extra 30lbs or so on my weak-link.
I jacked mine up an extra 250 pounds towline over what those brain dead Ridgely douchebags had me flying on.
One of the legacies of Skyting.
But I couldn't do anything about the crap on the tug or...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
...the total moron driving it 'cause in US hang gliding there's no such thing as too light and all the regulations are just suggestions.

Donnell fucked us all over but good. And:

-- you sure don't see him participating in a lot of discussions on fixing the crap he dumped on us.

-- since 2010/10/13 two people who had recently spent time on the back end of his rope have ended their flights and lives slamming in head first.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9149
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Re: Skyting demolition

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31034
Any opinions on the USHPA cover of the April issue?

Image
Mike Badley - 2014/04/09 17:05:28 UTC

MISSED OPPORTUNITY - to discuss the very real and constant threat of lockouts with a nice article linked to the cover photo.
The VERY REAL and CONSTANT THREAT of LOCKOUTS?!?!
Gil Dodgen - 1983/05

I am not a tow pilot, and although Donnell's system made sense to me I was forced to discontinue the series. The essence of his system was a double bridle that connected to the glider and to the pilot. This system would thus pull the pilot back on line in the event that the glider was inadvertently turned off course from behind the vehicle. This would produce a self-correcting system avoiding the infamous "lockout" the factor which seemed to make towing so dangerous.

Well, it appears that Mr. Hewitt's system not only works but, as I've been told by pilots who have made literally thousands of land tows with it, it works beyond all the most optimistic expectations. One pilot told me, "It is virtually impossible to lock out even if one tries."
Lockouts became a thing of the past over three decades ago. Skyting did to lockouts what reflex bridles did to full luff dives. What cave have you been living in and who's been feeding you?

How 'bout a good article on how a cam VG system works? I'll bet if it was explained to me real well I could make some major improvements to the system on my glider. I'm sure that Chris Valley...

19-13501
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3895/14743990195_8b8c2933c2_o.png
Image

...could come up with some pretty slick ideas as well.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9149
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Skyting demolition

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38155
Steve Pearson on Wills Wing Innovations
Jeffrey M. Roberson (Ridgerunner) - 2014/07/03 23:32:26 UTC
Salt Lake City

I just wonder when one of these "innovative" hang glider manufacturers will go so far as to even acknowledge the existence of my Lever Link:

http://www.jmrware.com/articles/2008/leverlink/LeverLink.html

design idea. (Which, once implemented, will simply redefine roll authority for flex-blade-wings - and may very well prove to be the greatest innovation since the advent of the double surface).

Six years and counting since I first published that article and yet not one peep heard from the lot of them.

Funny thing is, when I told John Dickenson about this, he said (paraphrasing): "Great idea - but be sure to get a patent on it or the manufacturers will steal it out from under you." :)

To this I reply: "Please - steal away!"

(Oh, never mind - I guess if you want something done right...)
Jeffrey M. Roberson - 2014/07/07 15:47:54 UTC

Thanks for the comments, but I don't wish to hijack this thread (which evidently deals with a hang glider manufacturer's "Mine is bigger than yours" pissing match). I was just making (what I believed to be) a relevant point that not all great innovations have yet been tried. I'd very much like to discuss this idea further with anyone interested (especially the manufacturers and any real engineers in here), but this is not the right place. The thread to discuss this further would be: Power Steering (but I'm not going to bump it myself). Note that not one of the manufacturers have yet commented on this idea (and that was the point of my post here).

Cheers
Jeff Roberson
USHGA #34482
NMERider - 2014/07/07 23:26:17 UTC

Sorry Jeff,

The thread deals with Plagiarism -
At its simplest and most extreme, plagiarism involves putting one's own name on someone else's work
OTOH - You seem to be seeking some form of acknowledgement for an untested and unproven concept for which there exists no full-scale working model. Build and test a full-scale working model and if it turns out to be the best thing since sliced bread then you can bank on Moyes putting their name on it and claiming they invented it, not you. After all THAT is the point of this thread. Having had my own original, successful, working inventions placed into production by others who refused to pay any royalty or give any credit where credit is due I know how it feels to be robbed of my intellectual property as opposed to merely being ignored. There's a world of difference.

Sincerely,
Jonathan
Hey Jonathan... Wanna do something to reduce the amount of pain and suffering in this sport? Put that poor guy out of his misery.
Build and test a full-scale working model...
Not necessary. Look at his diagram:

Image

It's wrong. Totally fuckin' backwards. That glider will roll to the *RIGHT* - NOT LEFT. (Note that there's nothing HOLDING the pilot in that position - he's just STAYING THERE. That's a major departure from reality.)

If you put a left force vector on the keel the glider will think that the Earth has shifted to the left and gotten a little heavier and trim accordingly. This is EXACTLY the same historic catastrophic mistake that Dr. Lionel D. Hewett...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

Dr. Lionel D. Hewitt, professor of physics and developer of the 2-to-1 center-of-mass Skyting bridle for surface towing, is well respected for his knowledge of towing, bridles, and weak links.
...professor of physics and developer of the 2-to-1 center-of-mass Skyting bridle for surface towing and well respected for his knowledge of towing, bridles, and weak links made - total failure to understand fundamental high school physics and how hang glider roll control works (which is EXACTLY the same as pitch control works which he DID manage to get right). "Weight shift" - fore, aft, left, right - makes the glider tilt up, down, right, left respectively. Weight shift is a BYPRODUCT of DIFFERENTIAL WIRE TENSION which IS how a glider is controlled. It's also how the Wright Flyer was controlled with the pilot in a fixed center position.

Good example - for pitch anyway - here:

07-02908
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3916/14323447020_2bc3cd9362_o.png
Image
08-03004
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3864/14323506998_01857ce411_o.png
Image
09-03015
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2912/14323656047_0beb580d1d_o.png
Image

Matt's pulling back on the bar which tensions the nose wires and detensions the tail wires which flop around in the breeze and the result is that the pitch is being held down. As long as he's doing that you can throw the tail wires away. Put him on a one point tow for the sake of argument. The tail wires will be equally slack and if he ceases his pitch input he'll have about 125 pounds of external force shifting his weight forward, the nose and tail wire tensions will equalize and the glider will pitch up and dangerously so.

Jeff's diagram is the exact same one that Donnell used in the 1982/09 issue of his Skyting newsletter - 'cept he's pulling the pilot under the other wing.

http://www.kitestrings.org/post2625.html#p2625
Donnell Hewett - 1982/09

In addition to the above mentioned roll and yaw tendencies, there is some sideways force on the pilot due to the body line. This is illustrated below:

PILOT WEIGHT SHIFT
Back View

As can be seen, this sideways force tends to pull the pilot over to the correct side to make the glider turn naturally in the proper direction.

The net effect of all these forces acting together has, in my experience, always helped turn the glider in the correct direction, even at cross angles as great as 90 degrees. Never-the-less, I do not recommend that you deliberately place yourself in a situation where you need to rely upon these forces to help get you out. You may just discover a particular case where they do not help. Neither the theory of these forces nor the experimental testing of such situations can be considered complete at this time.
It's backwards. A third of a century's worth of world hang glider towing based upon a backwards assumption.
Zack C - 2012/06/02 02:20:45 UTC

I just cannot fathom how our sport can be so screwed up.
That's how. Tell this guy that none of his constructions will do anything and that if they DID do something it would be the opposite of what he's trying to do because his fundamental assumptions are totally invalid.

http://www.jmrware.com/articles/2008/leverlink/LeverLink.htm
The Lever Link © 2008 Jeff Roberson (Rev:20091222)
Note: If you are interested in this lever link idea and would like to discuss it further, please post any thoughts, criticisms, and/or questions to the following forum threads:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11707
"Power Steering"

at OzReport.com and/or:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=101079
"Any Engineers in here? (need feedback on Lever Link idea)"

at Hanggliding.org.
And make sure not to publicly post anything about...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27494
The exciting bits
Steve Davy - 2012/04/27 01:55:17 UTC

Why did you delete my post?
Davis Straub - 2012/04/27 02:42:02

Tad's name.
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies
No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.
...T** at K*** S******.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Skyting demolition

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout
Mike Lake - 2014/08/23 17:31:48 UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pkB7GIxTUU


This is horrific and unnecessary.
Oh bullshit. It didn't even make it up to the status of incident report by anybody. How could it POSSIBLY be horrific and unnecessary?
Why didn't the winch-man ease up?
He was watching the pressure gauge.

041-05012
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3691/13745942893_d4b49eedd9_o.png
Image

If the tow pressure is normal and steady it's a no brainer that the glider's doing fine.
I assume there was a winch-man.
Harold Johnson probably...

162-20727
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/16673571861_3962427127_o.png
Image

He's one of the best.
Why didn't the winch-man ease up?
Because the tow pressure was NORMAL!
So important I'll say it again.
Because the tow pressure was NORMAL!
Why didn't the pilot release?
Because he thought he could fix a bad thing and didn't wanna start over.
I assume he had a quick and easy to get at release.
Of course he did. Watch the fuckin' video ferchrisake. Right there within easy reach in front of his right hip. Very very reliable bent pin release. Huge track record. Quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.

Besides, he's got the all the tow pressure going to his Center of Mass. That way when the glider goes off to the right the tow pressure automatically pulls him under the left wing and it comes back down and he rolls back to the left. So what do you really even need a weak link - sorry RELEASE (I always get those two mixed up) - for?
Why was the pilot not prone? More control might have saved him early on.
Because if he'd been PRONE he could've swung forward and hit his head on the keel or ground with a lot of force - asshole. Why do think we put these students in forced upright harnesses?
Why didn't the winch-man guillotine the line?
Ya know you've gotta splice that stuff back together after you cut it.
Was there a guillotine?
Who gives a rat's ass? There's almost always somebody nearby with a Swiss Army knife.
Why didn't the weak-link save his arse?
Because...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.

You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.
...he didn't pitch out abruptly after he figured out he was gonna need to start over anyway.
Only joking.
Or maybe he accidently doubled his standard weak link or deliberately installed a Tad-O-Link when nobody was watching because he didn't wanna be inconvenienced as much.
Why do tow groups continue to kill people?
It gets really boring running these operations. Besides, if you don't make towing as risky as you possibly can...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face
Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.
...nobody will be attracted to it.
This guy is as good as dead.
Not as much as THIS:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17166
Accident at Whitewater
http://whitewaterhangglidingclub.freeforums.org/status-of-towing-at-hgw-t625.html
Joel (tugpilot) - 2009/09/02 20:23 UTC

As most of you have heard there was a hang gliding accident last Monday. A pilot (Roy Messing) was injured and is currently under medical care at a hospital in Milwaukee. Now that the tug is operating under Part 91 regs, the FAA was called and came out to inspect the aircraft and evaluate its pilot.

The tug was inspected and must undergo some basic repairs. My medical history was scrutinized and I will need to undergo some evaluation. This is typical when an accident involves an injury.

Unfortunately, the process is not swift. I will have the tug legal as soon as possible but the process of my evaluation will not be finalized as quickly. I will try to staff the tug if possible while waiting on my paperwork to come through.

This means that towing for the rest of this season may be sporadic at best.

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but anyone who has had dealings with federal entities knows they don't move quickly. I will do all I can and am currently working on resolving this situation as quickly as possible.

I would appreciate it if the flying community would refrain from inundating me with calls and questions so I can focus on the matter of getting us back in the air as soon as possible.
...former Whitewater victim.
This stuff was sorted 30 years ago.
Yeah? Well if it was sorted out so goddam well thirty years ago then how come Quest had to spend the last twenty perfecting it? Fuck you, dude.
Everyone just carry on for fuck sake.
Don't worry about that. This should start a really productive discussion on hook knives within the next couple days.
Mr Angry. Image
Not me. We can't stop this bullshit and reverse reverse evolution to back when things were being done mostly right and fix the mainstream but the more people see of the carnage out in the mainstream the more powerful our little splinter movement becomes. I'd rather kill Davis, Rooney, Zack Marzec types but relatively innocent students are better than nothing.

Do note that:

- the autocorrecting bridle connection autocorrects to the opposite direction

- when the bridle starts snagging on control frame components and the port nose wire there's no apparent increase in the speed of the lockout progression

- this guy would've almost certainly taken less of a beating if he'd been prone and relaxed at the point of impact.

P.S. Beaucoup thanks to Jonathan for tuning me into this one 33 hours ahead of Steve's public scoop. This is a damn good smoking gun on a lot of levels.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Skyting demolition

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

20-02717
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5563/14877689989_f42cff3fb9_o.png;
Image
Jim Steel - 2014/08/23 23:26:23 UTC

TOW BRIDLE

Am I wrong, or does scooter tow bridle belong BELOW the control bar??
- How 'bout first we talk about the TOW "RELEASE" first? Whether or not it was within easy enough reach?

- The tow bridle belongs not touching anything on the control frame. Thirty years ago we had the Koch two stage to address that issue. But why spend several hundred bucks to do the job rightish when you can pretend to be getting away with a bent parachute pin, a stub of aluminum tubing, and a little webbing and rope for about two percent of the cost.
Craig Hassan - 2014/08/24 02:00:17 UTC

Locally...
Fuck locally. 'Specially Ohio locally.
...the bridle will go over the bar for early foot launch training. Then you switch to under the bar and launch dolly starts.

I've towed over the bar for high tows where the line comes down on the bar. It will speed you up pretty quick. If you push out you can counter it easy enough though. Let it get over the wheels on the side and you'll have issues getting back round to straight.
Do any of those issues include not being able to get back around, slamming in, and dying?
Not sure what went on in the video...
Why? Are you fuckin' blind?
...but there were a half dozen things that could have been done to "fix" the problem up until not long before impact.
How 'bout here:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png
Image

Any "thoughts"?
Davis Straub - 2014/08/24 03:07:17 UTC

OMG.

Geez. The tow instructor is located where?
What makes you think he had an instructor?
Next to the student when he starts?
What the fuck difference does it make? He's seventeen seconds beyond initiation of takeoff before he starts getting into the kind of trouble a Davis Link is supposed to prevent and doesn't. Unless you consider that with the cheap Davis Dead-On Straub junk he's using for tow equipment he was already in serious trouble when he got out of his car that morning.
Why is this student so high, when he obviously doesn't know how to control a glider?
So he gets more enjoyment out of the experience before he does something like:

Image
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg
Image
What did the farmer say?
"GODAMMIT! FIVE of these in the past two weekends!"
Perhaps the pilot should go here instead:
http://www.blueskyhg.com/
Steve Wendt? Yeah, he's exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one who signed off:

- Holly Korzilius's AT rating - shortly before his tug driver made a good decision in the interest of her safety and dumped her into a stall which required fifteen hours of reconstructive surgery to partially fix - along with totaling the helmet and glider

- Bill Priday's Hang Three rating shortly before two attempts to launch unhooked over the course of two weeks - the second of which was successful

- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's instructor rating - shortly before he launched his tandem glider and passenger with his carabiner dangling and dove himself and the aforementioned into the powerlines

Fuck:
http://www.blueskyhg.com/
Alan Deikman - 2014/08/24 03:43:06 UTC
Fremont

Corn is $0.30 per ear.
Just give him the scrap aluminum. That should WAY more than cover it.
Pedro Enrique - 2014/08/24 04:43:45 UTC
California

Maybe the pilot can answer these questions? I've towed in that manner (without the crashing part) many times at Tres Pinos. If that happens, the auto release kicks in...
Kinda like?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM

09-1116
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8203/29011379445_8956477e20_o.png
Image
...the tow operator releases pressure...
Told ya they used pressure there.
...and then the pilot goes back to the training hill for a bit.
Where does the instructor who cleared him for that stage of flying go for a bit?
I'm curious to know the answers to those questions as well.
I'm curious to know why you think that the only safe way a tow pilot can get off tow in an emergency situation is to have Birrenator kick in.

Also... After the Birrenator kicks in what difference to the glider does it make whether or not the tow operator releases "pressure"?
Thanks for posting.
Pedro.
---
I don't always fly trim, but when I do, I do it like a pro!
H-3 Falcon 3 (145)
Pedro Enrique - 93931 - H3 - 2014/04/24 - Harold Johnson - FL ST FSL
Tiberiu Szollosi - 2014/08/24 10:32:45 UTC

That looks like Whitewater Wisconsin (it's where i fly ) but i'm not there during scooter tow lessons so i can't say what happened but sure didn't look too good .
Why can't you say what happened? 'Cause you weren't "there" watching from a couple hundred yards away and just seeing this high resolution/quality video?

Any thoughts on why he didn't release and why the focal point of his safe towing system didn't work?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Skyting demolition

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout
Brad Barkley - 2014/08/24 19:05:00 UTC

The pilot should NOT be towed so high while still cross-controlling this much, and as yet unable to give proper control inputs to the glider.
- Sorry, Brad, I missed the part where he was "CROSS" controlling - where he was inputting left and causing the glider to roll to the right.

- STILL cross controlling? What, they teach beginning students to cross control and then wean them off and get them to do it properly after a dozen flights or so?

- What's the max percentage of cross controlling acceptable to clear a student for a high tow flight?

- Does cross controlling include pitch? You intend to speed up but you push the bar out a bit instead?

- I'm so fuckin' sick of hearing that idiot "CROSS controlling" term... I don't think it existed back when I was teaching at Kitty Hawk and we were having students prone out immediately for their little dune hops. We had NO issues with students NOT controlling for roll in those first couple lessons. We DID have students CONTROLLING the wrong way 'cause it's a bit counterintuitive aiming your body in one direction to turn the glider in the other (BTDT, *ONCE*, on the second flight of my second lesson) but not the twisting, doing nothing bullshit.

I think "cross controlling" is a phenomenon resulting from this bullshit upright "training". Students get put upright where they've got total shit control authority to begin with and then get warned not to "cross control" and consequently LEARN to "cross control" / do nothing to effect roll input.
Until that point, it should be "low and slow." At Blue Sky, where I did my training, the tow bridle connected over the bar for scooter towing (under for truck towing)...
Really? At Blue Sky they route the bridle UNDER the bar...

022-04610
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2809/13746340634_a74b33d285_o.png
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...for truck towing? Well, to each his own I guess.
...and attached to both the pilot and the apex of the glider's control frame.
When you asked Steve why he doesn't use a Koch two stage what did he tell you?
Here is an early training flight of mine at Blue Sky

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIsd9IkjrKs
I like the way you:

- did a hang check sometime before the video started so you could make sure you wouldn't launch unhooked.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1166
Thoughts on responsibility...
Scott Wilkinson - 2005/10/05 14:10:56 UTC

We visited Steve Wendt yesterday, who was visibly choked up over Bill's death. For Steve, it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.
It all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period. Good to see you've internalized that concept.

- stay upright for the duration of the tow so you can learn to fly well with total shit control authority.

- have the bicycle brake lever velcroed onto the downtube ten inches below your hand position instead of up where you could keep a trigger finger or two on the lever at all times. How are you ever gonna perfect your easy reach technique if you make things brain dead safe and easy from the start?

- pull off that foot landing. If that putting green had been a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place you'd have probably been in pretty good shape.

Do you get discounts on your tows at Manquin and Ridgely for getting people you think might be me kicked off The Jack Show and calling me a troll while never addressing anything I say?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Skyting demolition

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout
Mike Badley - 2014/08/24 23:31:39 UTC
Sacramento

Bad training!
Name somebody - outside of France, Eastern Europe, and Japan maybe - who's doing GOOD training. And no, if one or more of someone's students has been mangled or killed as a consequence of your shit training, you can't count him.
Again, (said it before) not a big fan of OVER THE BAR tow lines.
- We have the technology to keep the line off of the bar - regardless of steepening tow angle. If you elect not to use it then please fuck off.

- Nobody ever got scratched solely as a consequence of having the line over the bar. All that does is limit your climb and force you to fly faster - both pretty unambiguous good things looking only at the safety issue.

- This crash didn't have shit to do with the issue of the line being over the bar.

- Who gives a rat's ass what somebody from Sacramento has to say on towing issues?
Even training flights will develop habits that are hard to break when you later transition to an under the bar method.
Bullshit.
Second - that release was at the hip.
Within easy reach.
Meaning that the pilot would have to reach down to find it...
Easily reach down to find it.
...maybe even having to look down for it.
So? Cite me any SOP from any national organization or regulatory agency or quote me something from the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden that even indicates a release actuator you hafta look for is the least bit problematic.
Releases should be either that lever style...
Why do we need a lever to ramp up the mechanical advantage of a hang glider release? I don't think there's a sailplane in existence that can't be blown off tow with a straight back pull on a knob on the back end of a cable running to a Tost release.
...attached to the basetube where you can just slap it...
And:

- make sure you don't have the lever mounted such that you can have a finger or two on it at all times so you just need to squeeze it with your hand in place - you'll ALWAYS be able to let go of the basetube long enough to slap it with no significant...
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

By the time we gained about 60 feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a 20-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
...control compromise

- never worry about having to fly the glider with one hand for a mere second or two - it's only on a platform launch in which you need both hands on the basetube while you blow the nose release
...or in line with the tow bridle where you grab and yank it.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks
Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC

Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.
Never out of sight from looking frontwards.
As long as you can see it...

01-001
Image
04-200
Image
07-300
Image
10-307
Image
15-413
Image

...you're good. Nuthin' whatsoever to worry about. Just a matter of time. And control.
This pilot NEVER made any attempt to pull a release and rode the downtubes all the way in.
Yeah.
Joe Gregor - 2004/09

There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
Go figure.
He should have been drilled from ground training day one to NEVER STAY ON A BAD TOW.
Yeah. Maybe what he really needs is a release clinic at Quest...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link
Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
Those are the folk who've been perfecting aerotowing - and fatality reports - for twenty years.
He had a lot of time to release.
So did Bob Buxton.

Bob Buxton accident
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2oeb0nNIKs
Scott Buxton - 2013/02/10
dead
http://www.kitestrings.org/post5902.html#p5902
016-04308
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3799/13746342624_c9b015f814_o.png
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022-04610

Why do you think so many people from so many levels of skill, rating, experience with so many releases within easy reach and plain view...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1143
Death at Tocumwal
Davis Straub - 2006/01/24 12:27:32 UTC

I'm willing to put the barrel release within a few inches of my hand.
...just elect to stay on tow until it's too late?
At least 5 seconds or so from when the towline hopped his wheels before it was too late to have any affect.
Or even Effect. I'm totally out of ideas on what the problem is.
Lucky he smacked a wet cornfield. Even though it looked like a pretty good sized hurt, if he did that on hardpacked or rocky ground - might not have ended well.
It DIDN'T end well. The glider and pilot both need to LAND in good enough shape to go right back up before you can count it as ending well.

Hey Mike... Go fuck yourself. We've busted our asses developing the technology, publicizing it, making it available - and we don't need any more dickheads coaching other dickheads on the best way to fly with Industry total crap.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Skyting demolition

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout
Larry Howe - 2014/08/25 01:29:21 UTC
yet another needlessly broken down tube Image
And weak link. Notice how it worked to keep him from being dragged and thus fulfilled its mission of increasing the safety of the towing operation?
Mike Lake - 2014/08/25 01:29:43 UTC

Indeed the pilot's...
...student victim's...
...technique is very suspect but who the hell pulled him all the way into the ground?
Same crew that pulled Roy Messing all the way into the ground on another known total piece of shit "release".
Over the bar is not the issue. The winch-man should have eased up a bit at about 20 seconds (into the video). The pilot could have recovered and maybe even continued the tow.
He could have if somebody had taught him how to make a roll input before hauling him up.
If the pilot was not capable of that then you must question his teacher.
I was doing that at the 0.0 second mark during my first viewing of the video just seeing the crap they were putting him up on.
This video also highlights some other issues and I warn you this might not be palatable for some.
Go for it.
Swap the pilot for someone with more experience but let him get past the point of no return due to a thermal.
Thermals on launch don't exist in Industry scenarios because they don't use the equipment which can make them survivable.
What hope has he got reaching for his release and what would the glider do while he is flying with one hand floundering about looking for something to grab?
Nothing. It's only during normal landings in smooth air that taking a hand off is potentially problematic. That's why they teach you go on final half a mile out, rotate to upright, carefully move one hand at a time to the downtubes and stay that way. Not an issue in a low level tow emergency.
What would happen to the glider if he had attempted that super expert Rooney/Voight technique of pushing out to break the weak-link?
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.
The glider will pitch up, the weak link will break, and you fly away. :roll: Duh.
Would he have faired better or worse doing a wing-over before cartwheeling downwind into the ground?
Bullshit. Read Ryan's post ferchrisake. What part of "You fly away." are you having so much difficulty understanding?
The weak-link did not prevent this lockout.
It was obviously a stronglink. The two hundred stuff Morningside decided they were happy with. Only when we're visiting them in the hospital do they begin to hear what we've been telling them all along.
Have some comfort if done correctly and with a good winch-man lockouts need not be feared and have been virtually eliminated.
What? Are we gonna start blaming winch men for glider pilot error? Where would it stop? God? Flight park operators? Tug pilots?
On the other hand crap techniques, equipment, training, people and, at that height, you haven't got too much going for you.
That's why they make it a point to irrigate the corn fields before a day of flying. Let's not go nuts here.
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