Kite Strings

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34041
Cart dynamics

Christopher LeFay - 2016/02/08 20:16:23 UTC
Houston, Eastern Redneckistan, Texas

My home site was in a valley; our LZ was surrounded by forest- as a consequence, I abjured towing. Now, transplanted to the flat lands of Texas, towing is the flying necessity.

Hell, just drive to the Owens whenever you feel like getting a bit o' airtime, right Rick?

There's still much that sucks about towing- mostly those first few tense seconds -stuff I need to do my best to guard against through education.

And you've already got the best equipment possible within the confines of human engineering so education is all that's left to work on.

Here I'd like to specifically address all-things-cart related: cart adjusted to a parlous height; getting stuck on the cart; coming off askew; dangle angle and displacement. Mostly we talk about these things here when deconstructing an accident- otherwise, specific considerations oft go unsaid.

Jesus H. Christ. How complicated can you possibly make an issue like this?

All too often our best practices amount to what we have gotten away with or are most comfortable with;

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction

Diev Hart - 2011/07/14 17:19:12 UTC

I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now.

I reckon there's value in contesting views on the best way to launch from a cart. You'll likely have insight I wouldn't even know to ask about- so have at it -but I'll start with a few questions I know enough to ask.

Christopher LeFay - Houston, Texas - 79849 - H4 - 2007/06/24 - Daniel Zink - FL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC

What dangle-angle do you prefer- head relative to bar -and why?
Do you lift the cart a bit before releasing it? If not, why not?
What is the ideal cart height adjustment- slightly higher nose angle than trim speed?
While on cart, is weight shift for roll necessary, or is a good hold on the cart sufficient to keep the wings level?
Do certain sized control frames pose any special complication on the cart?
Do you allow yourself to be pulled through to normal flying position for the speed, or do you resist being pulled through at all?

Basic stuff-but your thoughts on those or any other consideration that comes to mind will be appreciated.

And ignore all the ACTUAL, LETHAL, and DELIBERATE problems we have in aerotowing.

Mark Moore - 2016/02/08 20:46:15 UTC
Houston

I hate to be that guy...but, honestly, it you have an aerotow rating, you should know the answers to every question you just asked.

If he's got an AT rating shouldn't he also be able to tell everybody what weak link value he should be using?

If you don't, go to cowboy up in Wharton. Bart and Tiki cover all of your questions in their instruction.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTC

Now I don't give a shit about breaking strength anymore. I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while.

Mark Moore III - Texas - 87409 - H4 - 2011/09/10 - Joel Froehlich - AT FL LGO PL TAT TPL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - ADV INST, TAND INST

Yeah Mark. Those assholes probably CAN tell him how to put a glider on a cart and launch.

rregier - 2016/02/08 20:57:37 UTC
Kitchener

There are nuances. Gliders differ.

But weak links for gliders are all EXACTLY THE SAME.

The question of cart geometry and adjustment for different gliders is worth talking about.

Knock yourselves out. As long as there's no actual substance to your discussion there won't be any problems.

Christopher LeFay - 2016/02/08 21:11:59 UTC

I do know *an* answer to each- but am looking to fill out understanding with diverse insight. Moreover, at the same local you suggested, we see some variation, some great. I do not intend to limit consideration to what I know or that which I know I don't know (thank you Karl Rove).

Al Haig.

Bouyo - 2016/02/08 21:50:20 UTC

I recently went through my AT rating and received the very helpful advice of keeping your shoulders centered on the control bar and making roll inputs leading with the feet, instead of the more customary full-body weight shift. If you move your shoulders to either side of the control frame you're changing your tow point in relation to the tug which is counter-productive to keeping in-step with the tug. It helped my control inputs a lot while on tow. - Does anyone else have opinions about that advice?

OPINIONS? You're in Opinion Nirvana over there.

I'm using a three-point tow by the way.

Idiot.

Good luck with your flat land flying.

He'll need it after the opinions start rolling in.

Nate Wreyford - 2016/02/08 22:32:30 UTC

With such an awesome resource like Bart and Tiki (in addition to other instructors and advanced pilots in Wharton), why go to some place with so much noise and so little signal when looking for answers?

Suck my dick, Nate.

Christopher LeFay - 2016/02/08 23:05:29 UTC

There are plenty of good reasons. No one, no mater how good, is perfect.

Bullshit. If they weren't perfect easily reachable releases and standard aerotow weak links would be really dangerous.

Some folks see some things, some others- and not every instructor can reach every pilot;

Yeah?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

So please, find me something... that you didn't make... that I can go out and buy from a store... that's rated and quality controlled... that fits your desire for a "non one size fits all" model, and *maybe* we can talk.
But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)

What's it matter?

...not every pilot can hear what every instructor is saying.

When they're...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

...being visited in the hospital they can.

Even more important is the sort of unanticipated insight provided by each student- take Bouyo's post as a GREAT example.

I wonder how I managed to survive all those years just making the glider go left and right by feel alone.

While I appreciate your sentiment, Nate, you've added more to the noise you lamented!

Welcome to Nate.

If you have anything to offer Bouyo in response to his question, I'm sure we'd both appreciate it. Less meta, more discussion, thanks.

Michael Farren - 2016/02/09 05:25:12 UTC
South Bunbury Western Australia

Christopher, this link should take you to the Hang Gliding Federation Australia (HGFA) towing manual. Page 15 contains a brief outline on the key requirements of the cart (tow trolley) and angle of attack setup for the wing prior to launch.
http://www.hgfa.asn.au/resources/Tow%20Manual%20v5.4.1.pdf

Moronic Hewett based crap.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34041
Cart dynamics

Christopher LeFay - 2016/02/09 13:36:59 UTC

From over on the OZ Report forum:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=46493
Cart dynamics

Jim Gaar - 2016/02/08 20:28:36 UTC

Basetube at my forehead, facing down with my hands on the basetube.

No. Always aware of my "weight" on the cart and IAS.

High enough to allow the wing to fly in trim without touching the tail sling prior to lift-off.

With a flexwing, many times I had to "bump shift" left or right to keep the cart rolling in line with the towplane. Rigid wings will needa wing walker until the wing is moving fast enough to control itself (oversimplified discription).

As far as width I suppose. Maybe if you use wheels or skids. These might be a problem.

I resist against the pull until the cart is rolling and then I let myself be pulled forward into trim flight.

Hold onto the cart until your wing is flying and you are ready to lift off! Secure ANYTHING that might get caught or snagged.

Gee it's great having copies of these valuable insights on BOTH main douchebag forums.

Christopher LeFay - 2016/02/09 13:47:42 UTC

On mismatched control frames to carts, some of you may recall Julia Kucherenko's crash- she had been flying a Discus 12, which featured a particularly small control frame. Most of the carts she had been using held her tail too high, sticking her to the cart. She had developed a habit of kicking the cart to dislodge herself!

You may also recall a pilot whose WW wheel boom caught on the cart corner on launch and the resulting crash; those particular wheels might be at special risk of snagging on carts with deep cradles.

Who could've seen THOSE coming.

Jim Gaar - 2016/02/09 13:53:45 UTC

As much as I like the through knowledge of the Hang Gliding Federation Australia (HGFA) guidelines...

Yep, the knowledge doesn't get much more through than that. We certainly are lucky to have these fine national organizations decimating it to us muppets.

I would never use steel rings for any of the towing "parts". These have long ago been determined to be dangerous (ask Michael Robertson)...

Fuck Michael Robertson.

...and there are a number of lighter, safer materials that can be used.

Right. So how many people have we had in non polypro and nylon operations get hit in the face by these lighter safer materials that can be used?

Also the above quote from me was used without my permission (Just a common courtesy thing for moi) However I did not feel I was being baited for the reply.

Take a skim over here sometime, motherfucker.

I also provided a very quick overview/answer. This subject can and should be discussed ad nauseum!

You've accomplished that already.

Here in KS we...

Who the fuck is "WE"? Everybody in Kansas?

...have been truck towing (platform launching) for over 30 years. We were aero towing from 2001 -2005 with ever type of wing towable.

Never flew the same wing type twice.

To my knowledge we have never had one accident or injury using these tried and true methods.

Of course not. They couldn't possibly be tried and true methods if you'd ever had one accident or injury using them. And we also never had one single incident at altitude which could've been ugly if it had happened ten feet over the runway.

Towing is a teamwork process. We also don't believe that an observer and/or a guillotine safety system will save a pilot from lockout or lockout recovery.

Well fuck then. You most assuredly shouldn't have a guillotine safety system then. Make sure everybody flies with a backup loop and hook knife though.

Towing is a dynamic process and it's up to the Pilot In Command to keep their bacon safe, PERIOD.

Fuck yeah! There's simply no possible way that Mother Nature can throw anything at the Pilot In Command such that power control becomes a significant issue.

YMMV

Are you capable of ending a post with something other than "YMMV"?

Christopher LeFay - 2016/02/09 14:19:38 UTC

Oh course not- YOU were the bait ; can't wait see what views we'll catch.

Got mine.

Thanks for the insight on the implications of hardware choices.

Pure genius.

Dave Hopkins - 2016/02/09 20:25:51 UTC

Experience counts for everything. Having a observer ( winch controller) saved my bacon.

Are you sure it wasn't some piece of magic fishing line...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/08/29 17:26:54 UTC

I thought that I had made it clear that I want weaklinks and I want weaklinks to break to save the pilot's bacon.

...that Davis was happy with at some time or other?

Even though I still crash from the lockout the pressure being released made my impact much less sever. Probably saving my life.

And it's great that you got away with no brain damage whatsoever.

I also had rotated up and grabbed the top of one DT and made sure my legs and butt would hit first, I was knocked unconscious.

That's OK. Obviously no sign of long term consequences.

Many times we would back off pressure if a pilot started to oscillate and it would become a none event. SO , I will not winch tow with out a winch operator. Each to their own.

So why do you think Tomas didn't rotate up and grab the top of a downtube to make sure his legs and butt would hit first?

Jim Gaar - 2016/02/09 20:43:00 UTC

I did not say there should not be one Dave. By all means it's a team function BUT
we learned that you can't rely on that person or equipment, nor should you, to save your life.

So then the reason you fly with standard aerotow weak links is obviously because...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Gaar - 2013/02/13 17:57:05

Former Flight Park Manager

Because it has the best known and accountable safety record (in my personal books anyway).

...you learned that you COULD rely on that equipment to save your life. Much more precise and discriminating than an observer on a guillotine.

Glad it turned out for you!

Fuckin' asshole.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34041
Cart dynamics

Dave Hopkins - 2016/02/10 04:09:25 UTC

Sorry to misread your intent. True, I have seen video of pilots going off line and crashing while the winch operator sat and watch as if nothing was happening.

Cite them.

Some times we don't realize how much our lives are in our crews hands when towing.

Since during emergencies both of our OWN hands are engaged in trying to control the glider and the easily reachable release tends not to be quite so easy to reach.

Having to rely on others for our safety is what makes towing more dangerous then foot launching.

Yes. Towing is MUCH more dangerous than foot launching. Just ask Karen Carra.

I apologize for drifting of the topic of this thread.

You needn't apologize, Dave. It's always such a privilege to be bathed in your insights and wisdom.

My cart technique
check tire pressure...

Tire TENSION.

...and keel holder setting
set nose high so keel has to raise out of cradle during launch
pull myself to a little faster then trim on the bar and hold that position.shoulders about even to the bar.
be ready to bump cart to keep roll straight.
Hold handles until wheels get quiet.
drop cart and rise to 8 to10 ft and follow tug

Hope you don't get hit by anything down low 'cause if you do you and your primary easily reachable release, backup easily reachable release, and easily reachable hook knife are fucked.

Jim Gaar - 2016/02/10 14:11:54 UTC

check tire pressure and keel holder setting

BAM! There's a nugget!

Fuckin' GOLDEN! Who'da thunk!

Thanks Dave.

Always a student.

Dave Hopkins - 2016/02/10 17:21:36 UTC

I believe if you are towing on rough ground it's good to have the rear tire under inflated.

Just do like Ridgely and leave them flat all the time.

The rear of the cart is light and if it gets bouncing it can jump up and hit the keel and possible cause a nose in coming off the cart. Nose-in off the cart is a serious accident. Many pilots have suffered bad injury's from Nose-ins.

Yeah. 'Cause of carts with tires properly inflated bouncing on rough ground. I've seen the videos. They're horrible.

Tom Lyon - 2016/02/10 20:44:31 UTC
Michigan

Christopher LeFay - 2016/02/09 13:47:42 UTC

...some of you may recall Julia Kucherenko's crash...

I do remember that. I take a look at my glider in the cart to make sure there is a good, positive AoA, but I couldn't tell you how many degrees I should be looking for. My school set that for us and I just have to pick the right cart, but I'm going to ask how many degrees up I should be looking for.

I also am very fastidious about checking to make sure that nothing can snag on the cart when I'm departing (e.g. zipper pull, instrument lanyard, shirt sleeve) and ask my cart assistant to take a look around my feet and above my back as part of my final check.

And make sure you give your easily reachable release and test fire so's you know it will function safely in an emergency.

Tom Lyon - 2016/02/10 20:49:06 UTC

For the sake of the tow pilot, I often remind myself that their life is literally in my hands right after takeoff. I'm really diligent about not climbing too high upon takeoff. The tug pilot may not be able to release the towline in time.

Tillettiville dickhead.

Jim Gaar - 2016/02/10 20:51:00 UTC

NICE ONE JackieB!!!!

Get fucked.

2016/02/10 23:08:18 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Tom Lyon

Get a room.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34041
Cart dynamics

Ryan Voight - 2016/02/10 22:59:04 UTC

Christopher LeFay - 2016/02/08 20:16:23 UTC

Do you lift the cart a bit before releasing it? If not, why not?

As with most things, my answer is "it depends". Many variables that come together...

Like, fer instance...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27494
The exciting bits

Jim Rooney - 2012/05/28 11:49:58 UTC

Guys
Your questions hold the answers.

What you're writing about and what your seeing are two very different things.
Your theories are what are doing you in.

What you're talking about is coming out of the cart too early and not having enough flying speed.
What you're watching is Davis coming out of the cart at Mach5.
He is absolutely no where near coming out too slow!

I've said it before, I'll say it a million times... a 582 tug is NOT the same thing as a 914.
Using 582 techniques on a 914 will put you in the shit.

All this "hang onto the cart till it's flying" stuff is fine for 582s. It is NOT for 914s.
Why?
In a word... propwash.

I'm not kidding.
It amazes me how people underappreciate the propwash. It's an afterthough... a footnote.
Let me tell ya guys... on a 914, it's the #1 factor when you leave that damn cart.
You SLAM into that propwash.

I'm towing out here in the desert at the moment. Out here, like it or not, you get to see the propwash. You see it in a big way. Even when we're towing on the pavement, you get to see it. It sucks and you know exactly where it is... because it's a big old cloud of dust and rocks. We insist on our passengers wearing glasses because of it (we provide them if they don't have their own).

Crosswinds of course make a huge difference. But again, we see the propwash... it's clear as day. Sometimes we can even steer around it (that's an other topic though).

The reason I make such a big deal about the difference between the 582s and the 914s is because behind a 582, you're still on the ground when you hit the propwash. You're rolling on the cart and you roll right on through it. No big deal.

So when you "wait till you're lifting the cart"... you're WELL BEYOND the propwash.
When you exit at Mach5, it's no big deal.

Now, when you do this behind a 914... it's a huge deal.
As I said, you slam into the prop wash.

And you're wondering why you're breaking weaklinks????
Are you kidding me?

Think about it... you're going a million miles an hour under huge (relatively speaking) line tension as you come blazing out of the cart struggling to "stay down"... as you slam into turbulent air. Hell yes you're going to break weaklinks. That's what they're there for!
You're subjecting them to massive loadings.
(The shock loading a weaklink sees as you hit the propwash is far greater than people appreciate)
That's why we have them... they're doing their job.

...the engine size on your tug.

...and it's hard to say one way is THE way always.

Here Ryan, lemme take a stab at this one... No. It's a stupid practice that you'll never see halfway competent flyers executing. (Somebody find me a video of somebody lifting a cart.)

I know it's a less popular opinion, and I'm selling it to no one...

Perish the thought that one should take a definitive stand on a black and white issue.

...but personally I prefer not to lift the cart. The reason being that the cart is heavy, and holding it in my hands, with my hands on the base tube...

BOTH hands on the basetube? What if you need to make an easy reach to your Industry Standard release to abort the tow?


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


I've always found one hand on the basetube to be WAY more than enough.

...means the addition of a great deal of weight hanging ahead of the hang point.

Bullshit.

That's a problem for 2 reasons in my mind- first, because it tells the glider to fly faster.

Which as almost always a really bad thing. Moves you further away from the harmless inconvenience stall.

As you lift the cart the amount of weight increases, and it would be equivalent to pulling in A LOT... at a time when you're really wanting to lift off and fly away, not zoom around at deck level.

Yeah, that zooming around at deck level - at speeds WAY in excess of what the tug's doing before it rotates off the runway - is a really bad thing. And of course you'd be zooming AROUND - not zooming still lined up with the tug.

The second reason is because the added weight changes the airspeed-to-bar-position. As much as I try not to, I'm human...

Could be - with an astronomical amount of work and dedication.

...and feeling the bar out by my face or back by my waist tells my brain some things about what the glider is doing, or is about to do. Adding the weight of the cart messes this all up big time.

I can only imagine.

Then there's also what happens when the cart is released! Suddenly this significant amount of weight that was ahead of the hang point is removed, and it's as if the pilot pushed out dramatically. You can see it in people's launches, because the glider looks to "blast off" suddenly and aggressively.

I guess I could if I ever actually saw this happen at an operation or in a video.

Lemme show ya what you actually need to do to dangerously fuck up an aerotow dolly launch by coming off it like a truck tow launch...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_n5B3-MIC4

01-0600

02-0708

03-0920

04-1207

05-1318

06-1500

07-1522

08-1619

09-1712

10-1722

11-1814

12-1915

13-2008

14-2217

15-2307

16-2319

That massive pitch up...

Yeah Ryan. MASSIVE.

...increases the chance for a weaklink pop at about the worst time...

- A bit shy of the ACTUAL...

Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation"...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...worst time.

- Oh bullshit. A weak link pop is a mere inconvenience that ALWAYS...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.

...increases the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD. You're just making...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

...more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

...as well as requiring a massive pitch response from the pilot.

MASSIVE! From trim to fully stuffed in a fraction of a second or you're DEAD! Probably the tug pilot too - which would be the REAL tragedy.

It's really hard to fly with precision when a big and sudden correction is needed...

But no problem whatsoever fighting a low level lockout with one hand...








...while making an easy reach with the other. (Any thoughts on why Oliver's weak link didn't break when it was supposed to, Ryan?)

...and being anywhere near the ground, I want to be as smooth and precise as I can muster.

Well if you really wanna go nuts on this CONTROL thing of yours I suppose it wouldn't HURT to have both hands on the basetube.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/02 19:06:09 UTC

The up side to having two barrels is it's easier to release with either hand. Sometimes it's easier to let go with one hand or the other, and it's nice to have a release available close to either hand.

Note, people of varying ages, that this lack of precise both-hands-on-the-basetube control can never be a totally lethal issue. It's just nicer when you can minimize some of the inconveniences.

If that big pitch up is left unchecked a little too long, the hang glider is now high on the tow plane, lifting their tail, and making it harder for them to lift off (or requiring a reactionary pitch input from them to counter the sudden increase in nose-down force).

Yeah right. Just look at how dangerously compromised MG's trike is being:

03-0920

06-1500

I'll say I absolutely do still hold the hose handles (or ropes, or whatever that cart has)... I just try specifically not to lift it. And again I'll say this is my own preference, and I'm not pushing it on anyone else.

How considerate of you, Ryan. (What this little worm is doing is being very careful about contradicting any of the bullshit that is being / has been taught by any of his Industry dickhead colleagues - particularly US Hang Gliding, Inc.)

If a pilot doesn't have a very good "feel" for airspeed-

...he's not a pilot and shouldn't be flying.

...which is especially hard while in the cart-

Bullshit.

...lifting the cart is a...

...really stupid...

...way of ensuring they don't lift off too early.

What's the fuckin' rush? If someone is iffy about his airspeed what's the problem with staying on the cart the extra three seconds it's gonna take for things to become fuckin' obvious? Then you just ease the glider into the air and feel things as you go. It's not like you've gotta make an abrupt all-or-nothing commitment.

If the glider's making enough lift to pick up that cart, they've got plenty-O-airspeed. I'm pretty confident in my airspeed recognition, so that's probably a big factor that effects...

...Affects...

...what I have to gain vs lose from lifting or not lifting a cart...

Do you allow yourself to be pulled through to normal flying position for the speed, or do you resist being pulled through at all?

This goes in tandem with my comments above RE: bar position and feeling the airspeed. At the start of the tow I feel it's very important to *NOT* let yourself get pulled through.

Where are the videos of this shit actually happening?

You won't launch very well if you're pulled in with the bar back by your belly, right?

Like THIS:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3728/9655895292_f4f808fb0e_o.png


Ryan? You think there's the slightest possibility that this cool dude's idiot pro toad bridle was a contributing factor to his untimely demise the day after he posted this really cool video?

Well just because your weight is pulled forward by the plane rather than by your hands on the base tube... it's no different.

Also don't hold myself at "trim"... because I certainly don't want the glider to start getting floaty at trim speed. I want to have enough speed before leaving that cart that I have plenty of energy- AKA time- so if a weaklink broke...

- Everything would instantly get much safer.

- WHAT weak link, Ryan? Why would anyone have a weak link that would break as the glider's under full control just leaving the cart? Isn't that about the most easily preventable towing issue...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

You and I have flown sailplanes for almost as long as we have flown hang gliders. We own two sailplanes and have two airplanes that we use for towing full-size sailplanes. In all the time that we have flown and towed sailplanes, we have not experienced or even seen a sailplane weak link break.

...in the entire sphere of glider operations? What are we using for weak links nowadays and what is it they're supposed to be doing for us?

...or the tug's engine quit...

Yeah. The tug's engine's gonna quit JUST as you're coming off the cart. And you're gonna instantly and totally lose your thrust. Same as a weak link inconvenience.

...or whatever...

Or whatever...

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

Like some 914 Dragonfly dickhead fixing whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope.

I can sort it out and still land safely.

I'm glad you told us muppets that, Ryan.

another .02 worth...

'Cause lacking that understanding - as we do getting signed off on our AT ratings by our AT operations - we WOULDN'T be able to sort things out and land safely.

2016/02/11 00:23:47 UTC - 3 thumbs up Christopher LeFay

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34041
Cart dynamics

Garrett Speeter - 2016/02/10 23:16:43 UTC

Just foot launch.
Then you don't have to worry about the cart.

Yep. Reduce complexity, increase safety. Just ask Robin Strid.

2016/02/11 19:10:22 UTC - Sink This! -- Christopher LeFay

Jim Gaar - 2016/02/11 15:50:19 UTC

In all my cart launches (different carts/different wings) I have yet to have an issue with "trim" making the wing float in an unsafe manner. As I'm holding onto the cart as my wing reaches trim I find it sits right were I need it to control the wing if something goes wrong. I've always been in a position to either fly off and away or stay on the cart.

Yep Jim...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13689
eating dirt

Jim Gaar - 2009/09/18 19:23:44 UTC

Hell I've literally shoved the control frame out in front of me to avoid a whack when it got a little ahead of me in a light DW landing, similar to when I've had to slide it in on my belly (did that once after a weaklink brake coming off a launch cart.

ALWAYS.

Maybe I'm pulling in a bit subconsciously in order to keep the wing on the cart until I'm ready to release.

Brian Scharp - 2016/02/11 17:54:12 UTC

Dave Hopkins - 2016/02/09 20:25:51 UTC

Experience counts for everything. Having a observer ( winch controller) saved my bacon. Even though I still crash from the lockout the pressure being released made my impact much less sever. Probably saving my life. I also had rotated up and grabbed the top of one DT and made sure my legs and butt would hit first, I was knocked unconscious.
Many times we would back off pressure if a pilot started to oscillate and it would become a none event. SO , I will not winch tow with out a winch operator. Each to their own.

Did you try to release?

Can't you READ? How are ya gonna release while you're rotating up and grabbing the top of a downtube to make sure your legs and butt hit first and use your glider as a crush zone? Asshole.

Dave Hopkins - 2016/02/11 18:23:21 UTC

We are all aware that launching off a cart is a very dynamic situation.

All of us - every one. Much more dynamic than running out of a shallow slot like Woodstock in switchy air.

Ryan's comments of having too much speed and bar pressure is a great observation.

Fuckin' BRILLIANT! Right up there with pitching out in a lockout to use your Rooney Link as an instant hands free release.

For many yrs all I have towed is rigid wings and bar pressure is not a problem. I remember it being a problem a few times on my topless and it had very light bar pressure.
Launching is always about getting the proper combination of air speed and lift. Judging when we have sufficient of both while bouncing along on a cart can be difficult. What clues do you use?

I don't have much in the way of clues - as evidenced by my still listening to your incoherent babbling about getting the proper combination of air speed and lift and how to use your glider as a crush zone while you're plowing in with a placebo release and Tad-O-Link.

I find that towing on a smooth runway makes it much easier.

I've always preferred really crappy ones. That's why I do most of my flying at Florida Ridge.

A rough grass or bare ground is more challenging. Of course currency makes a big difference with how much we are in touch with the process. Many of us mtn pilots go months or yrs between aerotowing. Being rusty is always more risky.

Just practice more on really crappy runways. And do more landings in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.

Accidents usually happen because of a combination errors in technique.

Bull fucking shit. AT "ACCIDENTS" happen because unqualified flyers are put up in crap conditions on crap equipment and qualified flyers go up on crap equipment and Mother Nature exploits the situations.

I witnessed two face plants off the cart resulting in serious injuries just days apart . Both pilots were cart stuck. Both were female. The major factors( to me) were that both gliders had short control bars making the cart AOA too low . Tail too high!

The major factors to anyone with a functional brain were the assholes running the operations.

One pilot said she was used to being cart stuck and having to push out to get off.

Speaks spectacularly for her training.

Maybe? Women having less hand strength then most men was a factor.

Yeah, they just don't have enough hand strength to get themselves properly airborne. So how many concussions did you say you've had in the course of your hang gliding career?

Less ability to hold on to the handles. It very rough ground . This was a big factor. Many pilots later complained about the rough cart rides. I witnessed a lot of cart tail bounce as pilots came off the carts. This bouncing cart could hit the keel and pitch the nose down. As soon as launches were moved to the smooth runways launches were much more comfortable.

Really? So you're saying we SHOULDN'T be launching off of crap runways?

There were many of the best aerotow experts pilots and tug operators at this meet...

- Probably too busy making sure nobody was trying to sneak in line with an inappropriate weak link.

- Was THE BEST aerotow expert, pilot, and tug operator - Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney - there?

- So how come we can get all the best aerotow experts, pilots, and tug operators together in one place and still not be able to figure out what we should be using for weak links and what they're supposed to be doing for us?

- NAME some of them - motherfucker.

- Undoubtedly. Thanks for verifying everything I've been saying about these total douchebags for the past decade.

...but it took two accidents to figure out we needed to move on to the asphalt to get safe tows.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4931
Zapata

Pete Lehmann - 2011/06/24

Blood on the Tracks

BJ Herring's intention was to attempt a gigantic world-record distance triangle of 260 miles, Mike Barber needed to test fly his new glider locally, while the Brazilians too wanted to do some gear-sorting and experience the tow operation. In the end, the soft lift and constant cross wind resulted in BJ's triangle being truncated into an outnback to Laredo (circa 80 miles), Mike's test flight proved his glider's pitch to be badly out of trim, something that may have contributed to his belly-flop landing on the runway, and the Brazilians had a bunch of broken weak links, part of an unusual number that have been experienced here.

And then there's my weak link break. I had been looking forward to attempting an unusual eighty mile flight to the south east along the Mexican border towards McAllen. But the instant I came off the cart my weak link broke. That shouldn't have been a problem as I had good speed to transition to a landing. However, I had zipped up my harness a bit too far and couldn't unzip it in the seconds available to me.

Still in my harness, I opted to belly land on the runway. Unfortunately the repaved runway has an extraordinarily coarse texture, that of a heavy grit sand paper, which resulted in my harness and knee being shredded. The harness can be fixed with Shoe Goo, but the knee required three stitches to pull together the resulting mess. The doctor who treated me at the clinic was sufficiently impressed by it to take some pictures for his colleagues. I was extraordinarily lucky, and can walk well and should be flying in a couple of days.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC

Remember, a weak link improves safety.
Say it over and over and over in your head until it sinks in.

I'm not blaming anyone.

Course not...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC

Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.

Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.

It's a fundamental tenet of hang gliding that nobody but the dumb bitches themselves can be held the slightest bit responsible for what happened to them.

I am just pointing out that towing is more of a group activity then foot launch and we need to be constantly watching out for each other.

Fuck yeah! Whenever you see anybody using equipment that Davis doesn't sell or an inappropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less make sure you notify the appropriate officials and have the situation properly dealt with.

If it don't feel right fix it .

Tell me about some of the issues in this sport you've gotten fixed, dickhead.

And DO make sure to pointedly ignore Brian's question - as any attempt to answer it would glaringly reveal you to be the severely brain damaged asshole you are.

2016/02/11 19:13:28 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

Dickhead.

Dennis Wood - 2016/02/11 19:10:43 UTC

Regarding tail height and angle of attack, I usually try to get washout tubes or sprogs level or paralel to the horizon.

- Now if you could just either learn to spell parallel or, better yet, say you usually try to get the washout tubes or sprogs horizontal.
- So tell us about the unusual circumstances when you DON'T try to get the washout tubes or sprogs horizontal.

2016/02/11 19:39:08 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Gaar

Totally awesome post, peanuts.

Christopher LeFay - 2016/02/11 19:22:35 UTC

Dave Hopkins - 2016/02/11 18:23:21 UTC

There were many of the best aerotow experts pilots and tug operators at this meet but it took two accidents to figure out we needed to move on to the asphalt to get safe tows. I'm not blaming anyone. I am just pointing out that towing is more of a group activity then foot launch and we need to be constantly watching out for each other. If it don't feel right fix it .

This can't be overstated: one perspective, no mater how proficient, sees only so much- while sometimes one pilot may see what no one else does.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

And look what happened to T** at K*** S******, Christopher. While all you goddam useless douchebags just sat around jerking each other off.

Anyone have experience using a mouth release?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

I just buried my friend and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?

Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.

AT isn't new. This stuff's been worked on and worked over for years and thousands upon thousands of tows. I love all these egomaniacs that jump up and decide that they're going to "fix" things, as if no one else has ever thought of this stuff?

But back to the root of my anger... speculation.
Much like confirmation bias, he's come here to shoehorn his pet little project into a discussion. Please take your snake oil and go elsewhere.

Tune him up?
Yeah, sorry... no.

Get fucked, Christopher.

Brian Scharp - 2016/02/11 23:33:38 UTC

No, but here's a couple videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1yBgSk9pOw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuCEVn6QF7U

I don't wanna see any of your snake oil shit that doesn't stand the test of reality. I wanna see videos of highly respected Jack Show leaders rotating up and grabbing the tops of downtubes to make sure their legs and butt hit first and using their gliders as a crush zones - thus limiting consequences to concussions.

13-1523
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/272/18086216863_27b0a39a12_o.png

21-1717
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/550/18702076162_c009310798_o.png

26-1825
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/322/18706906665_31bb122897_o.png

29-2101
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/451/18680575646_f2054455b6_o.png

32-2227
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/272/18702069992_495b394d89_o.png

37-2817
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/359/18702065822_27d65d236e_o.png


And notice the way the conversation abruptly ends one pretty much useless post after that - with:

Brian Scharp - 2016/02/11 17:54:12 UTC

Did you try to release?

unanswered and totally ignored - by one and all.

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC

Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.

That's another fundamental tenet of our sport. NEVER make an effective, easy, cheap, brain dead obvious actual fix to an actual problem. Just babble on eternally about the need to be constantly watching out for each other.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34041
Cart dynamics

Well what do ya know... Still alive.

Jim Gaar - 2016/02/12 14:17:43 UTC
Lone Jack, Missouri

One issue I've been waiting for some one to comment on is the relationship of the tow bridle to cart dynamics. Specifically in how it effects...

...Affects...

...the manner in which the wing will "stick" to the cart.

I have only used the center of mass V bridle...

Oh. You fly with a two-to-one Hewett bridle. How very interesting.

...[COM VB] setup (keel to towline to V-brible attached at 2 points on the harness).

Right. A THREE point briBle (down there in the Brible Belt).

The other is what is commonly called the Pro-Tow (one short V bridle from the towline attached to the harness at 2 points).

A TWO point bridle. How 'bout we call it a Marzec Bridle...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG

...so's people get a better understanding of some of the issues associated with it?

What we discovered on the COM VB was that if the keel to towline VB apex (were it loops through a ring on the towline) was not centered or was too high, that the tow force during roll-out and lift-off had enough down force that the wing would indeed "stick" in the cart requiring a firm push out to lift off.

Right. Adventure AirSports tow rings don't self-center on bridles the way they do at other operations.

The "fix" was easy. Make sure the apex of the long VB was centered or a little low and the result was that the wing did not stick and if a little low would actually help pull the wing out of the cradle.

Bullshit.

I would imagine this would never be an issue with the Pro-tow setup.

Nah, I'm thinking that to tow ring would likely stick to one side or the other and put the glider in a turn.

YMMV!

Fuck you and your mileage.

Dave Hopkins - 2016/02/12 14:48:12 UTC

Brian Scharp - 2016/02/11 17:54:12 UTC

Did you try to release?

Oh. We're going to get a response after all.

That lockout happened so fast I didn't have time to release before I was at 90 degs and slicing to the ground.

No time whatsoever!

01-1225
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7436/13700570583_049b5b7ded_o.png

02-1302
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7117/13700891354_b31d51ed74_o.png

03-1304
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2938/13700558193_0e0946218e_o.png


Just time to rotate up and grab the top of a downtube to make sure your legs and butt hit first, use your glider as a crush zone, and limit your damage to a concussion.

That is the way many locks happen.

From one of the world's leading authorities on lockouts - and anything else in hang gliding one cares to name.

It's easy to say " Just release before it gets bad. "

And if you have a release that doesn't totally stink on ice it actually IS easy to release before it gets bad.

But our first reaction is to control the glider.

And:

- dumping misaligned thrust is obviously an issue totally unrelated to glider control.

- obviously it's beyond the scope of human engineering to design a release system that allows the pilot to dump tension while maintaining or fighting for directional control.

...the situation can go from being off line to being almost upside down before you can react.

React to do WHAT, dickhead? Let go of the basetube and make the easy reach to the bicycle brake lever velcroed onto your control tube?

That is why you need a winch controller.

That's why YOU need a winch controller. Actually what you really need is to have all of your ratings permanently revoked and to be permanently banned from all hang glider operations and discussion groups.

I've had so called experts tell me lockouts don't happen...

Name them.

...but pilots keep dying and getting injured from lockouts. Plus weak links don't help on a constant pressure system.

- How 'bout constant TENSION systems?

- But for AT...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Dave Hopkins - 2013/02/09 16:43:09 UTC

The Aerotow weaklink is designed to break before a glider can lockout in roll.

...an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less will always break before you can get into too much trouble.

Christopher LeFay - 2016/02/12 15:01:01 UTC

A word of caution: placing this point too far back on the keel will result in significant upward bar pressure, demanding the pilot struggle constantly to keep the nose down. More than just fatiguing, pilot induced oscillation is more likely.

But eliminating the keel attachment altogether and just hooking up to the "pilot" is perfectly OK. Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt can teach you how to do it totally safely in the course of a short clinic.

Jim Gaar - 2016/02/12 15:01:38 UTC

Don't forge that even IF the winch controller dumps tension or cuts the towline AND IF the pilot can keep from hitting the ground, the wing is still low and going fast downwind...

So tell exactly how this magic fishing line of yours...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Gaar - 2013/02/13 17:57:05 UTC

Former Flight Park Manager

Because it has the best known and accountable safety record (in my personal books anyway).

...racks up a best known and accountable safety record (in your personal books anyway).

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34041
Cart dynamics

Jim Gaar - 2016/02/12 16:18:49 UTC

On occasion the plastic teardrop thimble (as I stated we NEVER used steel rings) at the end of the towline would not center as the tow commenced.
It would remain on the high side of the VB and exert a downward force, enough to keep the wing in the cart.

The bridle section below the tow ring would remain slack and no effort of pushing out would get that glider off the cart. It was really horrible.

Brian Scharp - 2016/02/12 16:41:21 UTC

Dave Hopkins - 2016/02/12 14:48:12 UTC

That lockout happened so fast I didn't have time to release before I was at 90 degs and slicing to the ground. That is the way many locks happen. It's easy to say " Just release before it gets bad. " But our first reaction is to control the glider. the situation can go from being off line to being almost upside down before you can react. That is why you need a winch controller.
I've had so called experts tell me lockouts don't happen but pilots keep dying and getting injured from lockouts. Plus weak links don't help on a constant pressure system.

The release in this video seems to address some of those issues. It's very quick and you don't need to give up control to use it. Although it probably won't improve your ability to recognize the need - or your reaction time - to use it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuCEVn6QF7U


Who said lockouts don't happen?

Jim Gaar - 2016/02/12 16:44:28 UTC

IMHO that was a "late" release.

Fuck you and your humble opinion, Rodie.

- This guy's off tow between these two frames:

23-1804
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/324/18709251331_71d06d1f0c_o.png

24-1812
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/413/18680578646_9c85e42142_o.png


0.267 seconds apart and...

15-1608
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/331/18519098058_a7d13e7814_o.png


...about 2.0 seconds after popping the nose release.

- What, in your humble opinion, was THIS:


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


"release"? Just right? And Davis has been...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC

Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who. So he's qualified enough to fly a Tad-O-Link.

- And, of course, Dave Crush-Zone Hopkins timed his release pretty well too. All he got was a concussion.

37-2817
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/359/18702065822_27d65d236e_o.png

Should have released as soon as the left wing dropped, at that point in the tow!!!

- He DID, dickhead. THIS:

28-2006
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/545/18709248961_df132f9efd_o.png


is in no small part the result of the inconvenience of losing thrust...

Jim Gaar - 2016/02/12 15:01:38 UTC

Don't forge that even IF the winch controller dumps tension or cuts the towline AND IF the pilot can keep from hitting the ground, the wing is still low and going fast downwind...

...even when the thrust is misaligned and its loss is necessary to keep the glider from slamming in. Do try not to forge that.

- So what's your fucking point? That he'd have been better off with the easily reachable crap that Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey "designed"? What the fuck does that hafta do with the discussion?

Christopher LeFay - 2016/02/12 16:53:25 UTC

I've never seen an air tow operation that used a plastic "thimble" to join the bridle to the tow line- not at Lookout, Quest, Cowboy Up, or the few comps I've been to. Can you point to a picture of this thing? I suppose you use the plastic thing instead of a metal carabineer out of consideration of a line break springing the carabineer back at the pilot?

And with the decades long reign of the standard aerotow weak link insanity there've been untold tens of thousands of line breaks to spring the carabinEER back at the pilot. So cite an account of one single individual ever being so much as tapped in the chin guard by one. Then congratulate Rodie on his excellent and brilliant solution to a totally imaginary problem.

Jim Gaar - 2016/02/12 17:03:35 UTC

Yes, we very early on switched to the rope thimble. It was light which helped to keep the end of the towline in the air to help eliminate snagging.

Like all the snagging we're always hearing about from all the huge mainstream AT operations like Wallaby, Quest, Lockout, Ridgely that use carabiners.

If it snagged it was more likely to break prior to the weaklink on the tug or the towline itself.

Great! The more stuff in the tow system you have which will vaporize under light tensions the better.

It was also successful in eliminating a wrap around with either primary or secondary release...

- The primary or secondary RELEASE? Don't you mean BRIBLE?
- Tell me:
-- how you can get a wrap at the tow ring with a secondary bridle.
-- why anybody would be stupid enough to use a secondary bridle long enough to be capable of wrapping on anything.

...used.

This operation only had five hundred tows...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC

Oh it happens.
I have, all the guys I work with have.
(Our average is 1 in 1,000 tows)

...in its entire history. They'd have needed to double that to get a statistical likelihood of a single wrap at one of those snaggy carabiners that everyone else uses.

Christopher LeFay - 2016/02/12 17:17:23 UTC

Is this something other than the "plastic teardrop thimble" you mentioned before?

No.

Or did "plastic" mean "flexible"?

No.

Why do you reckon they are not favored?

'Cause:
- they don't do anything
- you've gotta thread the bridle through the tow ring and connect it to the release at takeoff position instead of just having it clipped into

Jim Gaar - 2016/02/12 17:20:33 UTC

Damn good question Christopher!

Suck his dick a little to show you really mean it.

We towed with plastic thimbles for 5 years without one single incident or accident.

And each year represented well under the number of tows a mainstream operation will do on a good weekend. And we also required backup loops on all the gliders we towed and not one single pilot plummeted to his death after blowing the primary.

All types of wings in all types of conditions. This part of towing is hard wired into folks and they go with what they believe is the best. YMMV...

Betchya didn't even notice that he's just spewing verbal diarrhea and not actually saying anything.

Brian Scharp - 2016/02/12 18:13:39 UTC

Jim Gaar - 2016/02/12 16:44:28 UTC

IMHO that was a "late" release. Should have released as soon as the left wing dropped, at that point in the tow!!!

Yes, the timing would be limited by the pilot's recognition and reaction time...

Which in this case was totally beyond reproach.

...not by the fear of losing control.

By the knowledge of the certainty of losing control. By the knowledge of knowing that you're gonna die no matter what you do but that you'll live a second or two longer fighting the lockout than you will by trying to execute the easy reach to your "release".

That release would allow you to abort a tow while still holding on to a cart with both hands, if you chose.

Got that...


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


...Davis?

Make Crush Zone tell us what piece o' Industry Standard crap he was (not) using for a release.

It doesn't matter, if you're convinced the winch operator is better situated to make the decision, and who'd want to argue?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6904
Highland Aerosports 2016 Season News

Jim Messina - 2016/02/11 03:07:48 UTC

Say it isn't so!!! If there is anything I can do, let me know. Highland has become a second home, and the crew is like family. I hope that a solution can be found to continue to operate this first class...

Compared to WHAT?

...operation.

Ward Odenwald - 2016/02/11 16:12:42 UTC

Couldn't agree more with Jim's comments. Highland is a HUGH part of our Family, our Community!!

Get ready to kiss it goodbye forever.

Sunny & Adam (and anyone else), please-please let us know how we can help bring a tug pilot to Highland.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27909
Dragonfly Accident at Lookout

Jim Rooney - 2012/06/09 03:05:22 UTC

BTW, you have no need or use of reminding me of the other tug pilot that we lost.
She was a friend of mine and an exceptionally close friend of my mates.
You will likewise not be able to inform me of anything regarding her accident.
Allow me to inform you.
She was a rookie and it was a rookie mistake made under duress and extremely low.

Carlos Weill - 2016/02/11 20:46:53 UTC

I think many of us feel the same way.
(Even the one's that don't fly as much anymore)

I don't fly as much anymore, Carlos. How do ya think I feel?

I hope in the next few days we can come up with effective ways to turn this around.

OK, I'll start holding my breath.

Knut Ryerson - 2016/02/11 22:13:25 UTC
McLean, Virginia

Hope it works out and I am really going to be bummed if you guys close.
Have to drive all the way down to Richmond too for an alternative flight Park.

A mere inconvenience.

What about Massey?

Rich Elder - 2016/02/12 11:46:01 UTC
Virginia

Adam,

Have you thought of posting on the .org? With the recent support to get the RRG funded maybe the thought of one of the best tow parks with the best team closing for want of a tug pilot might get someone to commit for the season?

If they're ONE tug driver short of averting business death...

PS. I know some black ops guys - want Rooney renditioned and returned...

I'll double whatever they'll pay for his ass.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34050
Calling all tug pilots

Brad Barkley - 2016/02/11 15:08:58 UTC

BUMP

This would be a terrible blow to free flight on the East coast.

Highland Aerosports was a terrible blow to free flight on the East Coast - and about everywhere else on the planet.

Please help get the word out.

Dennis Wood - 2016/02/11 17:03:06 UTC

Is Jim not returning?

Is Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney posting anything about this anywhere? (Probably too emotionally devastated to deal with the situation right now.)

This is fuckin' HUGE. This was a MAJOR resource serving a MAJOR population center - Baltimore, Washington, Northern Virginia, also picking up people from Philadelphia, points well beyond.

The sport as those of us who've been around for a while have known it is disintegrating and every failure contributes to a cascading effect. Hard to imagine how different things might look now if everything possible had been done right - instead of just the opposite.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6904
Highland Aerosports 2016 Season News

Charles Allen - 2016/02/12 21:23:13 UTC

Arg. Let me know what I can do. I'll reach out in a PM I may have some ideas once I know the situation.

Charles Allen - Virginia - 68422 - H4 - 1999/09/29 - Malcolm Jones - AT FL LGO PL TAT AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC

Dan Tomlinson - 2016/02/13 00:42:10 UTC
Northern Virginia

Bummer,

While I haven't been there in a while some of my fondest flight memories originate from there.

Have you considered some alternate form of towing? One of our PG pilots has been getting good air in Florida with over the land winch tows. If yu could make that work you'd have a whole new customer base in addition to the one you have.

My ideas probably aren't practical on a number of fronts but I figured it wouldn't hurt to toss them out there anyway.

Fuck you, Dan.

Rich Elder - 2016/02/13 00:54:43 UTC

Dan,
Good point - truck towing...?

Richard Elder - Alexandria, Virginia - 93216 - H3 - 2013/07/13 - Gordon Cayce - AT FL AWCL CL FSL

Mark Cavanaugh - 2016/02/13 03:32:28 UTC

Just a guess on my part...

But a doubling of the tow fee for solo pilots? Or a tripling of the tow fee.... Or maybe even more?

I think many pilots would recognize that paying more for their tows (translation: tug maintenance & flight-park support), as opposed to all of their typical/secondary weekend flying expenses (gas, BKing, SBucks, beer, dinner whatever), is still a PRETTY DAMN GOOD DEAL.

I don't know anything about the actual costs of running a flight park. And maybe you have already gamed-out a bunch of cost structures...

But if *not*, please keep in mind that you have a dedicated customer base, and I'm pretty sure that many pilots would be willing and able to support higher fees.

MarkC

PS: And the hope would be that more revenue would then help attract and retain a tug-pilot. Don't know how realistic that is, but hoping...

Jim Messina - 2016/02/13 04:17:38 UTC

Maybe we can pass the hat and come up with a signing bonus to help find a tug pilot. maybe we could pay for air fair and import one from the southern hemishere, just throwing some ideas out. Maybe we can shame our favorite tug pilot to come back for a encore performance [Jim Rooney]

Jim Rooney's MY favorite tug pilot too - if I've gotta choose between him and an untreatable malignant brain tumor. Asshole.

Rich Elder - 2016/02/13 13:44:00 UTC

Jim M,

Tried that but it turns out that NZ is the land of opportunity for migrant tug and paraglider pilots. He is staying and has no plans to return any time soon and good luck to him. He did us proud and is off on a new adventure.

The Press - 2006/03/15

The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.

Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.

However, he took off without attaching himself.

In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.

Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.

PS. Damn his black heart...

Knut Ryerson - 2016/02/13 13:55:25 UTC

Arrgg.
Well I am all for helping with a bonus to get someone to signed up, if that is what takes to get the business up running this year. Would also pay twice for each tow, if that is what it takes too.

Would you pay half what they charge for a tandem thrill ride?

If it turns out they have to move, will be happy to spend many weekends helping in the move.
Really hope we can find a solution and let me know how to help.

Ward Odenwald - 2016/02/13 14:27:19 UTC

Increased tow fees and coming up with a signing bonus are both excellent suggestions.

I'm also in favor of a switching from a "pay as you fly" fee to a more structured format, a payment schedule that eliminates the risk of bad weather (no fly days) from Highland's income. During each tow season, there have been many weekends, consecutive weekends/weeks when bad weather or dangerous flying conditions...

All conditions other than smooth sled are dangerous with the total crap they put you up on - and their goddam Dragonfly tow mast breakaway protectors.

...have essentially shut down Highland's livelihood.

And in the IDEAL weather...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

Those are days and experiences you motherfuckers are never gonna be able to get back - 'specially now.

In order to insure a consistent income from their towing operation and help cover overhead costs, as a local, I'm willing to pay in advance for a season pass that includes both tow fees, maintenance costs and facility rent. If we can reduce or eliminate the financial threat of bad weather to their bottom line, we can help Highland survive.

Let it go to hell where it belongs.

In addition, we have all greatly benefitted from their free advice.

Yeah...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6408
Highland : Party Sat Oct 25 & Seminar Spring 2015

Ward Odenwald - 2014/08/30 01:44:02 UTC

To enhance towing safety, Highland will present a seminar that covers the science and art of staying on tow in both smooth and thermic air at the beginning of the 2015 season (3rd or 4th Saturday of March). This learning event should be considered a "must attend" for all who fly at Highland or tow elsewhere!

Plus, in recognition of Highland's efforts to keep us safe and celebrate their Long-Standing support of Region 9 hang gliding, the MHGA invites everyone to a Highland PARTY on the afternoon/evening of Saturday October 18th (rain date Oct 25th). MHGA will provide the basics so if you're not accustomed to pedestrian gruel or cheap suds, please bring food/drink and then some for those who appreciate the difference.

What a terrible pity it is that the secrets of the science and art of staying on tow in both smooth and thermic air...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6326
An OK Day at Ridgely

Matthew Graham - 2014/06/09 01:51:11 UTC

It was pretty quiet at Ridgely when we arrived at noon. Brian VH and Felix were there-- and Sammy (sp) and Bertrand... and Soraya Rios from the ECC. She was not flying.

Felix test flew Bertrand's T2C for about an hour and loved it. Brian had a short flight on a Falcon. I got on the flight line at a little after 1pm behind Sammi. She had a sledder. Then the tandem glider called rank and went ahead of me. The tandem broke a weak link and it took a while to sort out a new weak link. I finally towed around 1:30 and also broke a link at 450'. Back to the end of the line. Actually, my wife Karen let my cut in front of her. Bertrand and Sammi towed again. Each having sledder. The cirrus had moved in and things did not look good. Again I arrived at the front of the line only to have the tandem call dibs. And then the tug needed gas. I thought I would never get into the air...

...will die with them. Along, of course, with any scrap of useful information on Bertrand's fatal sled ride a week shy of eight months ago. Ditto for anything on Keavy Nenninger.

Sunny and Adam have significantly helped us become better, safer pilots!

Yeah. I'll bet Paul Vernon would second that - if his brain hadn't been turned to mush four ECCs ago. And any thoughts on what John Claytor would say if he'd survived their top notch launch operation two ECCs ago in good enough shape to be able to fly again?

I view their help as a significant part of my continuing education...

I also view their help as a significant part of your continuing education - asshole.

...and believe that their advice should also be factored into the cost of flying at Highland.

- You didn't say anything about Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney. Is that because his pearls of wisdom would put the price tag ridiculously out of reach for everybody?

- And why do you think it is that neither of those motherfuckers can be quoted anywhere sharing any of their vast wisdom on line for free - even after one of their professional colleagues gets splattered in a totally mystifying incident at the same operation at which Highland Aerosports cofounder and Adam brother Chad bought it at the beginning of Highland's fifth season?

Blaine Cover - 2016/02/13 18:41:00 UTC
York, Pennsylvania

All of these are great ideas. Count me in on whatever it takes to keep them in business and being able to provide for themselves.

I think things could run a lot smoother over there if everybody used safer weak links.

Without Highland my flying opertunities will be severely decreased.

Good. Maybe you can use some of that downtime to think a bit about how things could be done better.

Blaine Cover - York, Pennsylvania - 92691 - H2 - 2014/04/12 - Adam Elchin - AT FL

Jim Rooney - 2016/02/13 18:50:56 UTC

Awe, it touches my black heart to hear such wonderful lies about me. *shucks*
But yeah, sorry, I am staying in NZ though for many reasons.
In addition to absolutely loving this wonderful country, the IRS hammers me if I spend more than 44 days there.
International tax laws YEAY!

I hope the guys find someone.

So while the recreational flyers who supported Ridgely for up to seventeen years are struggling to keep it going and are willing to bend over backwards and pay outta their asses you don't really give a flying fuck about its survival, right?

And/Or maybe that's not the whole story. Is there any possibility that the owners reached their limits on how much of you they could stand last season?

Eric Lloyd - 2016/02/13 19:16:46 UTC

Adam/Sunny,

Can you train someone to tow? I know at least one, young, licensed pilot who you don't know, and they may know others -- what are the specific qualifications? I'd consider contributing a little with a sign-on kicker too...

I've truck tow loops on my harness, but I'm in need of training.

Aside from an increased cost per tow, a monthly fee structure for the season sounds reasonable, but what might that include? Glider/harness storage, camping, showers, pilot's lounge access, internet, ...? What about a "VIP" package too? E.g., "fast pass" to the front of the tow line up...

Just use really safe weak links. That gets you a free fast pass up to the front of the tow line-up ahead of the Tad-O-Linkers all fucking afternoon.

...etc...

In looking for a new spot, it'd be brilliant if you guys could set up and fly near or in one of mountain site's LZs in the local area and maybe even have a hill training operation too. The local scene is hurting big time in many ways due to loss of instructors and threatened LZs. (LMFP North?) Not sure how that would work in relation to the success of maintaining your tandem flight operations though. I know your trying to position yourselves in a way that you can tap into DC, MD, VA, PA, NJ, NY. Beach traffic and crossing the bridge has always been a pain and has kept me from coming out more than once.

And if you did it on this side of the Bay at a similar proximity to the population centers BWI, National, Dulles would prevent you from towing and/or climbing to anything over fifteen hundred feet.

Pic of Mr. Jim R. taking me to 10K for my 1st intro flight back in... 2008?

http://goo.gl/photos/2N2818QaMnBDdZe28

Treasure it. My first into flight was back in 1980. It was about fifty feet down from a dune and solo and I wouldn't trade it for yours with a gun to my head - even if my tandem driver weren't a disgusting little piece o' shit like that.

Eric Lloyd - Maryland - 92584 - H2 - 2015/08/16 - Adam Elchin - AT FL

Rich Elder - 2016/02/13 21:36:05 UTC

Jim,
Hopefully no lies and black heart was clearly in jest...

Yes. HOPEFULLY it was CLEARLY in jest.

Seriously good luck in your new adventure/opportunity but do know that you will be sorely missed buddy.
Cheers
Rich

Un fucking believable. Took me about three interactions with that douchebag to know in no uncertain terms that he was someone I'd NEVER want anything to do with.