Kite Strings

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=8290
I don't care about the flack if this saves one person.

Jason Boehm - 2008/09/06 23:38:06 UTC

I NEVER hook my harness into my glider first. I assemble the glider, fold up the bags, take out the harness, put the bags in the harness, put my vario on, inspect the glider, inspect my harness, check out launch conditions, put my harness on

Great, Jason. So what's your reason for NEVER hooking your harness into your glider first?

Then I either hook in and walk to launch, or walk to launch and hook in, depending on the site.. upon hooking in I lock the beaner

Great. Make sure that beaner's locked. Can't emphasize that enough.

If i have a wireman I will have him hold the nose and do a hangcheck. If its light I will just do a hangcheck myself, if I am on launch alone and its blowing I will not do a hangcheck(flame away if you like), but will simply look any my connection and make sure my single line is not twisted

I'm sure you preflight every bit as well and carefully as you write.

Now I get ready for launch. I pick up the glider and lift it until I feel a tug on my harness then set it back on my shoulders. If i stand on launch for a period of time when i lift the glider to get ready to run I lift until i feel it tug again, then set it back on my shoulders and run

1. I don't do periods of time. My memory's not as good as yours.
2. So how many times have you been flipped and seriously injured by lifting your wing into the turbulent jet stream?

once when I was a H0 my dad said "are you hooked in" "yes" I replied and then i lifted and lifted and lifted and never felt a tug, scared me good

Bullshit. It just gave you a false sense of security.

Matt Pericles - 2008/09/29 01:17:29 UTC

I tried the "Aussie method" for the first time this weekend. It worked great. It was easier to get in the harness than when it was unhooked because it was being held up - easier to get the legs in. It's also easier to ensure that your hang loops and harness straps are in the correct position. I'm going to do this from now on.

AND you didn't launch unhooked! Proof that the Aussie Method works great for preventing unhooked launches.

Tom Galvin - 2008/09/29 02:49:46 UTC



I am sure Relate2 will be happy to hear this.

I am sure Relate2 will have peed himself with joy by now.

It's a good habit to get into, but it is not foolproof.

Really? What's wrong with it? Does it give you...

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...a false sense of security?

I still do a hang check, and just before launching...

Define "just before launching"...

http://vimeo.com/39514151


...motherfucker. "Just before launching" is not the same thing as "just before picking up the goddam glider".

I will do a hook-in check.

You have no fuckin' clue what a hook-in check is.

Either with a pull through, or a lift up.

So tell us what happened at some point in the forty-nine months subsequent to this post that made you realize that a lift up...

http://www.rmhpa.org/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4258
HG accident in Vancouver

Tom Galvin - 2012/10/31 22:17:21 UTC

I don't teach lift and tug, as it gives a false sense of security.

...only gives a false sense of security. You did post an advisory in response to this near fatal incident, didn't you?

Still not perfect, but a defense in depth.

Total fucking asshole.

Randy Phillips - 2008/09/29 21:06:06 UTC
Newnan, Georgia

Yep, me too. I've been doing it since getting my pod. I also find it easier to preflight my harness and check that I don't have extra slack in my chute bridle.

When I get ready to go I get in the harness, do a pull-through and approach launch. Before stepping up on launch I do a full hang check. So now I have checked that I am hooked in a minimum of three times although sometimes I will do an extra pull through or two between getting in the harness and launching.

Wow! Guess you're REALLY sure you're hooked in by the time you start your run off the ramp...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25550
Failure to hook in.

Steve Davy - 2011/10/24 10:27:04 UTC

OK- how many times does he need confirm that he is hooked in? And when would be the best time to make that confirmation?

Brian McMahon - 2011/10/24 21:04:17 UTC

Once, just prior to launch.

Christian Williams - 2011/10/25 03:59:58 UTC

I agree with that statement.

What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.

No fuckin' way you're gonna get a false sense of security with checks as thorough as those in your routine.

It works for me and so far...

Amazing. You've done this since getting your pod a couple dozen flights ago and you haven't launched unhooked yet. Huge improvement over your previous record.

If you do NOTHING in the way of checks the chances of you launching unhooked in the course of several hundred flights is gonna be damned low. Even if you don't hook in there's a pretty fair chance - I'd say much better than fifty/fifty that somebody's gonna catch the problem.

I haven't found any negatives other than a little more dust on my harness.

Well lemme show you a negative...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18695
How could this accident happen?

William Olive - 2010/01/28 04:50:53 UTC

Phil Beck did this twice (or was that three times?) in a day at Hexham (Victoria) one time while foot launch aerotow testing gliders. Of course, with a swag of gliders to test fly, Phil would unclip from the glider he'd just landed, then clip into the next one to be tested.

Except, at least twice, he didn't clip in.

But you just keep on basing your procedures on nothing beyond your own personal experiences to date. If it ain't broke...

Michael Bradford - 2008/10/01 10:37:21 UTC
Rock Spring, Georgia

I've been working Team Challenge since Saturday...

You mean the event at which Bill Priday ran off Whitwell without his glider on this precise date three years ago in the very first attempt at aviation?

...and haven't been here in over a week. I don't even have time now to finish reviewing new posts, but I got this far and have to relate a few experiences while hang checking folks during the competition launches at Henson Gap.

Spelled Henson Gap right. Good job.

In three days, guessing @ 250-350 launches:

(1) Six twisted hook-ins, including some on single-riser rigging.
(2) One pie-in-the-face, flop-on-the-ground 'doh!' ("You're not hooked in, my friend.")

And we needed to see that happen to determine that he wasn't hooked in?

And I wasn't the only person giving hang checks.

I'm sure you weren't. So how many people were looking for hook-in checks? The usual zero? Maybe twice that in the wake of the 2005 disaster?

Yesterday (what a bee-youtifull day) people were getting two and sometimes three independent hang checks during staging, including those who hooked in before preflight.

Wow! I'll bet that really put a lot of minds at ease!

I don't think a universal change in methods would change that healthy behavior. It shouldn't.

And you...

Michael Bradford - 83152 - H2 - 2005/03/06 - James Tindle - AT

...have determined that that's healthy behavior. So Rob Kells really isn't worth listening to.

(3) Observation: Mike Barber "aussies."

Observation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NClx_UTDm2U
Mike Barber - Part 2/4

Mike Barber - 2007/12/25

The Pre-Flight Check

I ALWAYS do a preflight.

Um... I've had people say "You're nervous on takeoff." Why... I mean... You know... When I'm doing my preflights and it's, yes, I'm nervous because... I've forgotten things.

And there's pilots... Eventually, if you're not careful - VERY careful - you will forget to hook in - or you will forget a pin and have the glider fold up.

When you do your setup don't talk to anyone, do not let anyone distract you... This is very important. To break your routine... Never break your routine. Don't have any distraction.

Then... I always preflight again and always do hang checks 'cause I've launched unhooked... I've forgotten my belly's band, I've forgotten my leg straps... ALL of them ALWAYS due to a distraction. So... That part... Be very very careful.

On this issue Mike Barber is a total ass.

So, think about it. That's all I'm sayin'.

I have. I started thinking about it in 1980 really hard and adopted a very simple, logical, distraction proof, non focus dependent, nearly effortless strategy...

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...that's never once failed any of the very few people smart enough to employ it.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25963
Woman killed in B.C. hang gliding fall.

Brian Scharp - 2014/10/02 18:57:19 UTC

It's not uncommon for the family members of those who have experienced a tragedy to hope others may learn from their loss and not have to endure the same. I doubt they would be offended by the use of a photo to keep a topic alive and possibly reaching someone new. I can't say the same for some of the comments being made here.

Ian Duffy - 2014/10/04 22:32:10 UTC

Simply do a hang check and don't get in your harness until it is connected to your gilder.

michael170 - 2015/03/16 05:14:28 UTC

I'll write that down so as I don't forget.

gluesniffer - 2015/03/16 05:30:57 UTC

You should also write troll on your forehead

If he does I'll bet it will reflect better grammar than anything you're capable of mustering.

2015/03/16 05:44:12 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Paul Hurless

Click away Paul. Any time you actually open your stupid mouth you just set yourself up.

Dave Pendzick - 2015/03/16 16:06:30 UTC

That will be difficult considering his head is in his ass...

My, what a friendly, positive, approachable community Jack has provided for people interested in the sport of hang gliding.

2015/03/16 16:12:39 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Paul Hurless

Steve Corbin - 2015/03/17 16:48:52 UTC

Trolls are people too.
I'm with Brian Scharp on this.
But it would be best to start a new thread, discussing (and cussing) the topic of "hang check" versus "hook in check" for the newcomers.

Fuck the newcomers. If they read their rating requirements and adhere to them they'll be OK. If not, who gives a flying fuck.

Tormod Helgesen - 2015/03/17 18:02:12 UTC

This is my last post until 170 is banned...

Good.

He makes me physically sick.

Good.

If I see his nick once more, I'll never come back.

Good.

Not much of a threat I know, but SG must choose between lunatics and normal people.

1. He MUST?
2. Where do total fucking morons fit into the scheme of things?
3. In hang gliding, Tormod, you're a normal person. Brain dead goddam waste of space.

NMERider - 2015/03/17 18:24:54 UTC

Time for sg to roll out Org 2.0!

Long past time for that asshole to roll out period.

Dennis Cavagnaro - 2015/03/17 19:16:25 UTC

No No NO!...its time to hit ignore...

For total assholes like Tormod too stupid to figure out other ways of not reading stuff.

What is it with people needing some mommy to take the bad guy away?

Pretty much the same thing as it is with hang gliding people needing pieces of fishing line to act as their Pilots In Command.

Tell Tom from Norway to have Stevie Van Zandt put a contract on him!

Brian Scharp - 2015/03/17 20:03:19 UTC

NMERider - 2015/03/17 18:24:54 UTC

Time for sg to roll out Org 2.0!

NMERider - 2014/12/12 05:19:37 UTC

Thread Karma or whatever else you want to call it is already incorporated into hanggliding.org v2. sg has not implemented the new forum yet. If he does get it up and running then I will be running too. Right for the exit.

I abhor any and all forms of dogma. The moment hang glider pilots start voting on each other's credibility is the day this forum truly becomes irrelevant as I have quipped about in the past. You want talk about a self-congratulatory circle-jerk? Then start voting on each others' credibility. That will mark the beginning of the end.

I have gleamed valuable information from even the most despised or ignored members of this forum and read pure unadulterated nonsense from the most esteemed. But there is nothing and I mean nothing I find more repugnant than dogma. You want shitloads of dogma? Then start voting on each other's credibility.
Say, why don't we start a pole and vote on that?!

NMERider - 2015/03/17 20:15:05 UTC

That may work for you Dennis but dozens and dozens of the best posters from the Org are long gone and are not coming back because of all the troll bullshit and other extremely rude behavior that has gone virtually unchecked for seven years.

If that's true then whose fault is it? The Hang Gliding Dot Org Board of Directors'?

Then there are the pilots who never post at all or are very hesitant.

Well, I guess they must not feel that what they have to say is all that important and/or valid.

All the ignore function does is turn the Org into an even bigger ghost town than it has already become.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1690
US Hawks Board of Directors Testing in 2015

Warren Narron - 2015/01/13 03:18:41 UTC

Tad is an inspiration in tenacity. He takes a lickin and keeps on tickin.

I'm still here.

That's like ignoring signs of cancer and hoping it just goes away. Trolls are a cancer and should never be ignored.

michael170 being a troll? And not gluesniffer, DAVE858, Tormod?

BTW - I know exactly where Michael170's sarcasm is coming from and it relates back to a series of flame wars that I won't go into.

Why not?

Meanwhile pilots will continue to launch unhooked due to our warped cultures and self-righteous dogmas.

Focused Piloting, Joe Greblo's Four or Five Cs, Aussie Methodism?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31781
Another hang check lesson

Alan Deikman - 2014/09/23 19:47:06 UTC

For my part I will just refer you to the classic Tad Eareckson essay which I call "the gun is always loaded" which is a bit overworked but probably all you will ever need to read regarding FTHI. A lot of people will find it gores their particular sacred Ox, but I have never seen anyone point out a flaw in his logic.

People who do hook-in checks don't launch unhooked. ALL other strategies result in failures - quite predictably.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25963
Woman killed in B.C. hang gliding fall.

Jack Axaopoulos - 2015/03/17 22:21:34 UTC

michael170 has been BANNED

By whom, Jack? For what violation(s)?

Enough already

Enough of what?
Well, it was either michael or Tormod. No brainer for a mutual masturbation society. Enjoy yourselves.

2015/03/18 05:35:43 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Tormod Helgesen

Tad Eareckson wrote:....

Alan Deikman - 2014/09/23 19:47:06 UTC

For my part I will just refer you to the classic Tad Eareckson essay which I call "the gun is always loaded" which is a bit overworked but probably all you will ever need to read regarding FTHI. A lot of people will find it gores their particular sacred Ox, but I have never seen anyone point out a flaw in his logic.

People who do hook-in checks don't launch unhooked. ALL other strategies result in failures - quite predictably.

First rule of firearm safety: "The gun is always loaded"
First rule of hang glider safety: "You are always unhooked"
Verify that the chamber is empty immediately before handling.
Verify that you are hooked-in immediately before crossing the ramp threshold.

I use the so-called Aussie method only to inspect my harness and lines before I get into the harness and for no other reason.

Before I cross the ramp threshold I lean against my risers until I feel the tug. Most places I launch from, the glider will flip if I attempt to lift it high enough to tug the risers so I lean forward until I'm stopped. If anything interrupts the interval between my hook-in check and crossing the ramp threshold I do another hook-in check. If I have been waiting on the ramp for a good cycle then I do a hook-in check. There is no such thing as 'another hook-in check' because the only hook-in check is the one done right before crossing the ramp threshold. Everything is else is just history because that is what I will be if I forget that "I am always unhooked".

I had a friend forgot 'the gun is always loaded' and parted his wife's hair while cleaning his .45. I've had three friends launch unhooked. I did it in 1978 and cartwheeled down a steep hillside dislocating my left middle finger.

"You are ALWAYS unhooked" is a good rule to follow if you want to live.

Verify that you are hooked-in immediately before crossing the ramp threshold.

verify: make sure or demonstrate that (something) is true, accurate, or justified.

How does one VERIFY that one is hooked-in if one is truly making the assumption that one is NOT hooked-in?

In other words, the verification should be to verify that one is NOT hooked-in rather than to verify that one IS.

This may sound rather nit-picky, but I think the distinction is important.

NMERider - 2015/03/19 02:18:22 UTC

Verify that the chamber is empty immediately before handling.

And still/always assume that / handle the gun as if it isn't. The verification is a good thing to do but must be regarded as valueless.

Verify that you are hooked-in immediately before crossing the ramp threshold.

And still/always assume that you aren't. The verification is a good thing to do but must be regarded as valueless.

I use the so-called Aussie method only to inspect my harness and lines before I get into the harness and for no other reason.

1. I use it, when convenient, for two reasons - that one and in most circumstances it's easier. And when it's not then fuck it.

2. But this isn't really the Aussie Method. Its idiot cult members will be quick to tell you that it's a mindset attained through the discipline of NEVER entering a harness unless it's clipped to a glider. The hard-core nut jobs won't unclip before exiting either.

Before I cross the ramp threshold I lean against my risers until I feel the tug.

1. Lotsa people have crossed ramp thresholds safely clipped in and ended up with really nasty surprises. Dick Stark, Tim Schwarzenberg, George DePerrio are examples who had fatal ones.

2. And, correct me if I'm wrong, you've never once not felt the tug - just as I've never once not felt the tug I was expecting using lift and tug. And that means that if either one of us had done NOTHING between preflight and launch we'd have had 100.000 percent success rates and could sing the praises of Nothingness as the ultimate safety strategy.

Most places I launch from, the glider will flip if I attempt to lift it high enough to tug the risers....

No it won't.

- Nobody's ever reported being flipped as a consequence of lifting a glider.

- Rob Kells...

Rob Kells - 2005/12

Always lift the glider vertically and feel the tug on the leg straps when the harness mains go tight, just before you start your launch run. I always use this test.

...probably flew most of the same places you did and he never reported being flipped.

- There are no special launches at which gliders have special reactions. Airflow is airflow.

- Gliders don't flip as a consequence of being in or being lifted into stronger airflows - they trim.

- In iffy conditions the proper strategy is ALWAYS to get the wing as high into the airflow as possible. Paragliders tend to be really good at doing this. Might as well anyway. Within a couple seconds of moving a foot the wing WILL be going up as high as possible...

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...whether or not you're connected to it.

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- Here's shithead Chris Valley:

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launching unassisted in about as high a wind as anyone wants to deal with. His suspension is tight as a banjo string. (Good thing he's got that spreader adjusted down to reduce the pressure on his carabiner.)

- We have multiple videos of every flavor of fuckup, mishap, disaster known to the sport. There are no videos of gliders being flipped on launch as consequences of suspensions being tightened or allowed to go tight. Check out this guy:

01-1203
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Escarpment, air straight in, strong upwards flow, nose way the fuck high, suspension tight...

07-1412
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He doesn't flip.

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Even gets a short flight out of the deal...

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Not pretty but...

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...beats the crap outta not being hooked in - 'specially at that ramp.

- Let's say this flipping hazard actually exists at most sites in most conditions. So what's the harm in doing a lift and tug at launch position within two seconds of commitment on the rare occasions on which there's ZERO possibility of being flipped? It's a real good bet that there've been a fair number of fatal unhooked launches completed in negligible air conditions. If most of the time I'm setting up and launching I'm racing to get off the mountain before ISIS lunatics get to me you can bet your bottom dollar that I'm gonna totally skip the preflight. If they're still a half hour away... What the hell, give the battens a look. (I'm still gonna skip the preflight sidewire load test 'cause in that situation I'd rather take a chance of a failure in flight than a chance of a failure in the setup area. (If the failure's in the setup area my parachute can't possibly do me any good.))

...so I lean forward until I'm stopped.

That doesn't verify your leg loops...

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03-31006

Lift and tug...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=15239
Lift and Tug - identified my absent leg loop - thank you!

Norm Boessler - 2010/01/11 13:24:30 UTC

...does.

...If anything interrupts the interval between my hook-in check and crossing the ramp threshold I do another hook-in check.

Again. People have died because of interruptions/distractions that have occurred AFTER crossing the ramp threshold. That's why the relevant SOP reads:

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

and not:

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to crossing the ramp threshold.

If you recognize something as a distraction it's not a distraction.

If I have been waiting on the ramp for a good cycle then I do a hook-in check.

Your memory's way better than mine. Any check that I do right after something is a preflight check. The check that I do just prior to launch is my hook-in check.

There is no such thing as 'another hook-in check'...

Correct. Here's Chris Valley again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la7Ym4O38SA


doing a bunch of lifts and tugs. Only the last one is a hook-in check.

...because the only hook-in check is the one done right before crossing the ramp threshold.

Nope. A hook-in check is the beginning of your launch sequence - not the end of anything else.

Everything is else is just history because that is what I will be if I forget that "I am always unhooked".

You forget after you've crossed the ramp threshold. Nobody who's been afraid he was launching unhooked has ever launched unhooked. Thus I'm ALWAYS scared shitless I'm launching unhooked until it's too late to do anything about it.

I had a friend forgot 'the gun is always loaded' and parted his wife's hair while cleaning his .45.

I'll bet the chamber on that one was empty.

I've had three friends launch unhooked.

Allen Sparks, Bob Gillisse, Marc Fink, Pete Lehmann, Dennis Pagen, Bill Priday, probably many others. (Probably many others for you too.) Acquaintances, not all friends for sure. Quite the opposite in at least three cases. Bill I met once and had a good conversation with. He'd die a year plus eleven days later going off here:

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without his glider.

I did it in 1978 and cartwheeled down a steep hillside dislocating my left middle finger.

I never did it and/because I was always terrified I would.

"You are ALWAYS unhooked" is a good rule to follow if you want to live.

Then follow it right up to the only two second window in which it matters.

If launching without a check as the beginning of the sequence were deemed as unacceptable as flying without a moronic back-up loop or an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less then unhooked launches would become immediately extinct.

This strategy:

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is distraction proof. A strategy of verifying that you are hooked-in immediately before crossing the ramp threshold...

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=4596
Stop F*cking Around w/ Your Cameras!!!

NMERider - 2014/11/21 18:17:12 UTC

https://www.facebook.com/fsalvetti1/posts/952319108130874?pnref=story
Fabio Salvetti - mi sono sganciato per sistemare la gopro...

Fabio launched unhooked after he unhooked himself in order to be able to lower his camera boom. He then proceeded to launch and realized the situation as he ran down the wooden ramp. Luckily he had a soft landing in the bushes. The fact that he had 3,000 flights while hooked in is no excuse.

If you are going to fly with distracting equipment then for crying out loud alter your pre-flight and in-flight procedures so that your excess gear does not end your flying or kill you.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7570/15661252749_7fcfe6445a_o.jpg


...isn't. Humans, pretty much by definition, are not and will NEVER be distraction proof so our strategies MUST be. The chances that you personally are gonna launch unhooked using your strategy are pretty damn low. But the chances of at least one of the other nine guys doing it in the course of a career are pretty damn good.

As universally despised as I am I've gotten several individuals - Helen McKerral, Norm Boessler, Allen Sparks, Zack C, Steve Davy I think, probably a few others - to modify for the better their approaches to unhooked launch prevention. Maybe not much but if every convert would/could influence to other flyers... I think you've got the cachet to influence a good many people. But when we watch your videos all we ever see is...

25 Miles to the Beach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuYrX0LEW-s
quae alte volant - 2014/10/07
dead

...another guy who's assuming he's hooked in start running. If I can't see your suspension from where I'm standing I have no fuckin' clue whether or not you're connected to your glider. If I'm watching Chris Valley from the same position I know that he and his glider will be coming down at the same time and place.

Steve Davy - 2015/03/19 04:15:48 UTC

In other words, the verification should be to verify that one is NOT hooked-in rather than to verify that one IS.

I keep assuming that I'm not until I'm off the ramp and when I'm feeling the pull I keep worrying that I might have done THIS:



(again). Nobody who's ever been worried about having done that has ever launched like that.

the first thing in the launch sequence ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDWjVjuiREo
Sparkozoid - 2015/03/15
Pi Fly Day
dead

Got it. Well stated. I have been remiss and will modify my procedures so I lift and tug within 2 seconds of launching. Will include in any future flight videos. Future videos of past flights will not show this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDWjVjuiREo
Pi Fly Day

Allen Sparks - 2015/03/15

3.1415 (3/14/15)

I made a point of watching by iPhone's alarm clock app pass through 9:26:53 (EDT) that morning.

Camera batteries ran out. I flew sans-vario, and eventually sank out, and wheel landed to protect my artificial knees...

Damned batteries. A lift and tug AND a wheel landing on the same video.

NMERIDER - 2015/03/19 23:37:10 UTC

Got it.

Great.

Well stated.

Thanks.

I have been remiss and will modify my procedures so I lift and tug within 2 seconds of launching.

MAJOR victory for Kite Strings. May keep something expensive, unpleasant, terrible, fatal from happening to you or somebody from your turf or some other corner of the planet who's picked up something from your example.

Will include in any future flight videos.

Be prepared to be immortalized in stills.

Future videos of past flights will not show this.

They're doing amazing things with CGI nowadays.

I will do what I can to be a positive influence on practices that may save lives.