Kite Strings

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31979
To toss silk....Or not???

Jeff Heiss - 2014/10/23 05:06:37 UTC

Does Learn2glide install a radio in the harness so the instructor can guide the pilot while flying?

- You mean to teach him the stuff he should've been proficient at before going up to the next level in the first place?

- Does Corey install a radio on Learn2Glide's winch so the student can tell the stupid motherfucker driving it to not dump tension on him when he's climbing and totally under control?

Don Arsenault - 2014/10/23 09:06:40 UTC
Ontario

Wow. This makes me feel so fortunate to be learning from one of the best there is!

Wow! I was under the impression you were learning from Mike Dead-Eye Robertson...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27044
Here's a scary one for ya!

Don Arsenault - 2012/09/06 02:00:52 UTC

If I let the video keep rolling, you would have seen me quickly lose my cool, and yell and curse and march into the office to demand a new release. I got one, and my next flight went great.

And he's a total fucking douchebag.

Dave Gills - 2014/10/23 10:50:20 UTC

U2Driver - 2014/10/23 02:31:21 UTC

Why are they not running a 2 point(hewit Style bridle) to keep that high nose angle (AOA) in check??

Is that like Blue Sky?

Wow. It's really great to see just how much appreciation for the history of the sport people have nowadays.

Primary on keel with a bridle running to a yoke with a secondary barrel release?

Nah, it's more like:

Mike Lake - 2011/03/02 01:11:45 UTC

Keeping the line tension to within limits is a job of the tow equipment and not the weak-link (talking about ground towing), but I can see how this thinking might evolve with a fixed line tow setup with no automatic line tensioning system.

Looking at a spring gauge and slowing down or speeding up a vehicle according to what the glider might be doing is a very unsatisfactory tow method effectively thrown out here (UK) almost immediately.
I am amazed that this type of towing is still practiced today and even more amazed that in some instances the 'tension controller' is also trying to drive the vehicle at the same time.
Perhaps a weak-link is your only real hope in that situation and I guess a straw to grab at is better than nothing.

THE first and possibly THE most significant tow innovations (certainly ranking alongside body towing) were the various ground tow setups with automatic line tensioning devices (payout winch, slipping clutches etc.)
Anyone setting up a tow group should make this the first thing on their shopping list and much of the perceived use for that multi purpose tool called a weak-link will evaporate.

In the early '80s we were given a demo of a fixed line tow system complete with spring gauge, spaghetti bridles, rings, string and chunks of metal at longbow tensions positioned in front of the pilot's face.
The release was some kind of boat shackle that required about same continual tugging to actually release as it does for me to untangle my mobile phone charger.
After release the line had to unthread itself from various rings before the glider was actually free from a rather pathetic tow launch.

This was utter, utter crap, the whole setup and we (rather unkindly) laughed.
I am shocked to see so many elements of this system still in existence today.

Primary on keel with a bridle running to a yoke with a secondary barrel release?

Bicycle brake lever velcroed to the downtube within easy reach.

Nice thing about that one is you can move the upper release forward or back on the keel depending on the glider/student. (or...

...if you wanna do things quick and shoddy and don't give much of a rat's ass about trim...

...hook it near the hang loop)
You can also run the bottom line under or over the base bar also depending on the glider/student.

You can run the bridle over the bar if you're never gonna get to a high tow angle. If you are then use a goddam Koch two stage.

GaryHU - 2014/10/23 12:29:46 UTC
Hungary

I've learned by static towing and I'm pretty sure that it's not normal to drag students for so long after starting the tow. I've watched their other videos too and almost without exception they're all terrifying.

They must have their marketing down however. You can see all kinds of people on the end of their tow line strapped into their HG.

Brad Barkley - 2014/10/23 13:00:26 UTC

U2Driver - 2014/10/23 02:31:21 UTC

Why are they not running a 2 point(hewit Style bridle) to keep that high nose angle (AOA) in check??

On some of his videos he does...

No he doesn't.

...but the attachment point he chooses is way too far forward on the keel. It keeps the nose down so far, that students are not able to get the glider off the ground.

Well, at least he isn't using any of that dangerous Rube Goldberg crap from...

http://www.energykitesystems.net/Lift/hgh/TadEareckson/Manifesto01.html
Manifesto

Orion Price - 2014/03/17

The guy openly mocks the families of dead-and-injured pilots. Doesn't offer much toward safety or education. I have reason to believe he is not an engineer; as his designs are unsafe, untested, and his method is against our purpose of safe free flight.

...T** at K*** S******. If he were you can bet your bottom dollar that Safety Fanatic Orion Price - whom I have reason to believe is an engineer - would be all over it.

Carole Sherrington - 2014/10/23 13:55:18 UTC

This video was just depressing.
This "school" is going to kill somebody.

You mean like Derbyshire Flying Centre killed Lois Preston?

This fellow handled the line break fairly well...

- It wasn't a line break. It was a fuckin' winch driver making a good decision in the interest of his safety.
- The immediate result of that decision was a mild stall from which the glider would've recovered just fine if he'd had his hands in his pockets.
- The goddam retrieval chute which Matt dumped in his face was a lethal threat.

...but should have released immediately.

What the fuck are you talking about?
- It was the loss of tension that turned a normal flight into a potentially critical situation.
- He DID release as immediately as his shit equipment and the situation precipitated by his shit driver allowed.
- The towline was slack.
- Releasing made absolutely no difference 'cause the towline had tied itself to his glider by means of the recovery chute.

At least he didn't dyck around once he became entangled with the parachute...

- Let's not phrase that to imply that it was the least bit his fault he became entangled with the parachute.

- He SHOULD have dicked around with it. He was high and in smooth air with all the time in the world. At this point:

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he's got a fuckin' shroud line. He should've continued to dick around until he'd collapsed the chute and disabled it. Probably could've cleared it from his glider altogether.

...although all of his final turns were far too low.

They were way the hell too low too far out on his previous flight...

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Clearly he wasn't getting adequate instruction in circuit planning...

How did he do in comparison to Joe Julik at Whitewater on 2014/09/29?

...and wasn't getting enough height for circuits to be carried out without aerobatic final turns.

- Like this:

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one?

- I didn't see any aerobatic turns. Maybe you could point them out to me.

Where were the hang checks?

Shove your goddam hang checks up your off the scale stupid ass.

It's normal in the UK for pilots learning to fly from tows is for there to be a top line to the glider hang point to take away some of the pitch up moment and to be towed gently along the field at a few feet for them to get used to the process of getting airborne and controlling the glider as in the early part of the video.

This pilot had only a lower line attached, low down on his harness, so the tow was lifting the basebar. That's why he couldn't control the pitch up during his run...

Bullshit. His bridle isn't in contact with the basetube for an entire second...

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...once he starts forward movement. Completely irrelevant. (Not that that makes the crap he's using a great idea.)

...although the 11:30 take-off looked more like ballet practice. That take off should have been aborted by the launch marshal.

The whole fuckin' operation should have been aborted by a marshal - but not at the 11:56 point on that video.
So why isn't he dolly launching with a goddam Koch two stage?

Fortunately, the weak link didn't break and present the pilot with a whipstall at thirty feet.

Bullshit. A weak link INcreases the safety of the towing operation. An appropriate weak link with a finished lengths of 1.5 inches or less will prevent the glider from climbing into a steep enough attitude for that to be possible. The worst that could've happened would've been a mild inconvenience.

There was an accident at my club where just such a thing happened with the pilot suffering serious chest injuries and a nasty injury to his face.

Like I said... Just a mild inconvenience. It's not like he was using a Tad-O-Link or anything.

A line break just a few feet lower and it would have been much worse as he would have hit the ground more nose down.

Well yeah... A LINE break. Those are dangerous as hell! But not a WEAK LINK break.

At my club, we only use the two-line chest release system, either Koch, Zoot or Webb-Cogman designs, which are all variations on the same theme, with an over and under basebar launch method.

Well fuck you. We use state of the art equipment over here.

Even though these have been around for 30 years or so people still find ways to get in a muddle...

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...one of which provoked a re-design of the release levers last year.

Fuck that. We just write up the fatality report as pilot error. Another muppet just froze or thought he could fix a bad thing and didn't wanna start over. Give that approach a go. Saves a lot of hassle.

Lessee...

- People still find ways to get in a muddle with your two stage releases so you redesigned the levers.

- And one of the guys at your club bought himself serious chest injuries and a nasty injury to his face when one of your idiot BHGA weak links increased the safety of the towing operation on him. Are you thinking about redesigning THOSE? Sounds to me like that's where your more serious problem is.

- One of our guys - a tandem aerotow instructor - got totally killed when his standard aerotow weak link increased the safety of the towing operation on him at 150 feet. And now many of us have decided they're happy with a slightly stronger one.

Or are you gonna leave yours like they've always been 'cause this guy was just a stupid muppet who didn't know enough to hold his nose down and got what he deserved?

2014 08 16 Corey
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c4YU7W0Ofc
Learn2Glide LLC - 2014/08/18
dead

Have now pulled 86 stills from this video and gone dizzy and half blind from organizing, cataloguing, uploading, analyzing. So...

Tad Eareckson - 2014/10/23 20:42:04 UTC

Leader between chute and tow ring / one point bridle with bent pin wonder release at port hip...

More corrections. He's got bent pin wonders on BOTH hips...

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...and he always releases from the right side - including in situations in which retrieval chutes are attempting to swallow him whole.

Can't find the bridle. At 12:06 it looks like he's bunching it up.

Nah... He's using two hands to work the release 'cause it's not feeling any tension. Here you can see the port Bailey release and freed bridle streaming from his left hip:

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Guess it's invisible on that flight without a dark background for contrast.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31979
To toss silk....Or not???

combat.is.hell - 2014/10/23 13:56:07 UTC

Would it be safe to conclude that both school & instructor are unsafe?

Name some that aren't. On 2014/06/02 at Ridgely during the ECC the staff, meet heads, safety committee, Dragonfly driving Rooney Link Nazis decided it would be cool to try to pull John Claytor in a fifteen plus / ninety cross with - big surprise - really ugly results. Nobody batted a fuckin' eye. Some mega anonymous AT program three quarters killed Steven Tinoson at Forbes a month plus two days ago and virtually no one gave the slightest hint of a flying fuck.

On every second comment there is a new mistake/miss/wrongdoing pointed out.

'Cause he's a little dinky operation? The Questies have the standard aerotow weak links they've been perfecting for twenty years dumping gliders into stalls six out of six launches and that's OK 'cause those are just inconveniences and they've worked this stuff out?

Every student should be adviced to keep well away from this school.

Lemme know when you find one I can be comfortable recommending to someone I don't want dead.

And the "instructor" definately has some questions to answer.

Really? How 'bout...

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...Pat Denevan, Harold Johnson, Mission Soaring Center?

Sam Kellner?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg


He gets to kill someone, tell us:

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1081
Platform towing /risk mitigation / accident

Sam Kellner - 2012/07/03 02:25:58 UTC

No, you don't get an accident report.

and continue on in the sport like nothing happened?

Brian Scharp - 2014/10/23 15:51:21 UTC

Dave Jacob - 2014/10/22 19:09:57 UTC

Is it normal to drag them as much as you see on the learn2glide videos on youtube?

Maybe not, but by dragging them good and long it makes them more grateful when it stops. It conditions them to accept any other decisions he may make in the future.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
The law of the land at comps was 130lb greenspot or you don't tow. Seriously. It was announced before the comp that this would be the policy. Some guys went and made their case to the safety committee and were shut down. So yeah, sorry... suck it up.

Brad Barkley - 2014/10/23 15:58:42 UTC

Here is an example where he is using a V bridle, but the attachment point is way too far forward on the keel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOJGB1Tl-7Q
2014-10-11 Shannon
Learn2Glide LLC - 2014/10/12
dead

Here's an example of what can happen to a pro toad someone who's learned how to fly with no attachment point on keel in a short clinic from Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG

Funny what all you fuckin' assholes get all bent out of shape about and what you don't.

Carole Sherrington - 2014/10/23 16:28:17 UTC

Instead of using a line to the keel to prevent nose pop, why not train the students to keep the nose down while running, & not to pop the nose?

- Why not do the fuckin' job right and use a bridle which keeps the glider in about the same trim you'd have for a free flight launch?

- How the hell do you know he's not training students to keep the nose down while running? They're fuckin' STUDENTS. Students don't necessarily do everything they're told to in their beginning flight. If they did they could all launch at Kagel on day one and pull off forty milers.

- Do you really want people flying gliders who can't figure out where to put the nose on their own?

If they are relieing on a line to keep the nose down, what will happen when they decide to try foot launching a hill or ramp?

They'll probably all die 'cause the won't be able to figure out soon enough that they need to keep their noses down.

Brad Barkley - 2014/10/23 17:16:17 UTC

All I can tell you is that it's not a problem. I trained scooter tow with Steve Wendt at Blue Sky, and when it came time to get my FL signoff, it came very naturally and easily.

But then you need to take into consideration the fact that you're the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Jeff Heiss - 2014/10/23 17:53:31 UTC

Why aren't the students being taught to how to land? (pull in, round out, fare)?

The fare timing is very difficult...

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He just lets them land the way they feel like...

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...and refers the ones who wanna do things RIGHT to Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.

Can you find a video where a student fares?

Can you find a video of one of them ripping his shoulder apart...

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...'cause he's half a second late on fare timing?

Why aren't the students being taught to pull in for three seconds to prevent stall just before releasing?

- Maybe the instructor himself...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...just isn't really up to that kind of skill level.

- You're saying the glider STALLS when the towline tension is abruptly subtracted?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC

My god my head hurts.

Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.

Bullshit. Get fucked.

- Why would anyone ever wanna PREVENT a stall?

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1563
Platform Launching (PL) Draft suggestions needed

Bob Kuczewski - 2014/06/06 17:21:51 UTC

I also like that this discussion emphasizes that breaking a weak link is something that can be practiced - just like we practice stalls - so we understand how to handle them and to not be afraid of them. I had a terrifying stall experience with my instructor when I was learning to fly airplanes back in the 70s. For a long time I feared getting close to stall. As long as I feared stalls, I was not spending much time getting comfortable with them, and that didn't make me a better pilot. So there's a lot to be said for safely learning to handle the inevitable rather than trying to come up with some way to avoid the inevitable.

Nice job Bill !!!!

You're talking about stalls like their BAD things.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC

Again, tell me how all this nonsense is about "safety"?

So, a stronger weaklink allows you to achieve higher AOAs... but you see high AOAs coupled with a loss of power as *the* problem? So you want something that will allow you to achieve even higher AOAs?
Are you NUTS?

I'm tired of arguing with crazy.
As I said many times... there are those that listen with the intent of responding... you unfortunately are one.

You've done a great job of convincing me never to tow you.
Thank you for that.
Mission accomplished.

Are you NUTS? I'm tired of arguing with crazy. As I said many times... there are those that listen with the intent of responding... you unfortunately are one.

Why doesn't the instructor know if the student is still on the ground after five steps, he has a problem with his setup? The constant dragging is no indication?

Why doesn't the instructor use a fuckin' launch dolly? 'Specially seeing a how he can't be bothered to teach, require, look for hook-in checks?

Is the school providing instruction or are students on their own to learn?

If students WERE free to learn on their own we'd have a lot better sport than we do now.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31979
To toss silk....Or not???

endoxon - 2014/10/23 18:35:41 UTC

i just watched a few more of those splater movies.
Wouldn't it be far more convienient to leave the glider away when dragging people over grass?

Sure...

http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3729/13148945555_cea849a8eb_o.png


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Why not?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18695
How could this accident happen?

Davis Straub - 2010/01/28 06:10:17 UTC

I have tried to launch unhooked on aerotow and scooter tow.

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That's what all the hotshots do.

Wish you had wings? Grow a pair... but don't waiste your money with that guy until then!!

So tell us where we SHOULD waste it.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20756
How is Zach Etheridge doing?

Bob Flynn - 2011/02/04 11:26:34 UTC

Lookout keeps this kind of stuff under their hat. You never hear of accidents there. But every time I go there, I hear about quite a few. Blown launches, tree landings, etc.

We're gonna jump all over THIS Matt 'cause he shows us what's actually going on?

Garrett Speeter - 2014/10/23 18:50:41 UTC

Wow.

40 hours is not enough.

Oh. So this is all a matter of hours of airtime. Bullshit.

And lemme tell ya sumpin', motherfucker... By the time I'd racked up five hours at Jockey's Ridge there was very little hang glider ass I couldn't thoroughly kick.

I didn't even take my h3 test till I had 100.

Well ya only needed ten for the rating requirement. Maybe you're a bit weak in the academics department.

These videos are scary.

COOL! I thrive on scary videos. And I've got tons of them archived on my hard drive. Name a rating or experience level and I'll be happy to bury you.

Mel Torres - 2014/10/23 20:16:14 UTC

If you look at the horizon relative to the framing of the shot (video), you can tell that the camera on the crossbar was located inorrectly relative to the crossbar giving the illusion of an extreme AoA. The left side of the horizon is higher than the right side. This indicates the camera's framing was rotated to far forward (counter clockwise) as viewed from the camera looking inboard towards the pilot
Just a thought

I have another thought... How's the angle of attack for Graziano looking?

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Brian Scharp - 2014/10/23 20:34:28 UTC

That's true, but if you tilt your head to the right to level the horizon you'll see that the AOA is even higher than the camera was making it appear in that hard climb.

Mike Bomstad - 2014/10/23 20:42:32 UTC

2014-10-11 Shannon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOJGB1Tl-7Q
Learn2Glide LLC - 2014/10/12
dead

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whatever

Yeah Wonder Boy...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13359
Today was a bad day!

Mike Bomstad - 2009/08/26 04:21:15 UTC

The harness is part of the aircraft... end of story.
(Just because it's easy to remove, does not mean it should be. Don't choose the path of least resistance)

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WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whatever

Jason Boehm - 2014/10/23 20:47:47 UTC

is it just me or did that video appear editted to end not showing the poor guy with two spiral fractures

Mike Bomstad - 2014/10/23 20:50:30 UTC

Exactly!
Why would you post poor bridle setup........... unless you don't know its wrong...........

How 'bout this:

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bridle setup? It's OK 'cause tons of idiots use it and it hasn't killed that many people? If Zack Marzec had been using the one in that Learn2Glide video he'd have been fine.

michael170 - 2014/10/23 21:06:38 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=306797#306797

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28015
How do we rate our instructors?

michael170 - 2013/01/10 09:36:55 UTC

Instructors are not "rated" but rather "certified" by incompetent administrators appointed by a committee of morally corrupt assholes.

Mike Robertson perhaps?

Mike Bastan - 2014/10/23 21:51:11 UTC

Is there a mechanism to alert USHPA?

Yeah. Like how 'bout this topic here? Don't you find it just a wee bit odd that none of those useless goddam pigfuckers ever condescends enough to engage in any of these discussions, that when a Zack Marzec is killed all the goddam Regional Directors and Towing, Safety and Training, Towing, Accident Review Committee Chairmen all go scurrying deep under their rocks?

Perhaps an H4/5 with towing experience or an instructor should do so.

How 'bout Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Lauren Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:56:42 UTC

I am posting the report my husband, Paul Tjaden, just wrote about Zach Marzec's death at Quest. It is a great tragedy to lose someone so young and vital. We are sick about it, and our hearts go out to his friends, family and loved ones.

I'm not saying the guy should lose his job but it's clear that he needs more training as a minimum.

- So who signed him off?

- How 'bout Bart...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTC

Now I don't give a shit about breaking strength anymore. I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while.

...Weghorst?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31979
To toss silk....Or not???

Dave Gills - 2014/10/23 22:38:37 UTC

This is the nearest club where you can ridge soar... (3 hours east of Learn2Glide)
http://www.hynerclub.com/
Hyner Club

You can't use any of their sites as an H2 without a club sponsor.

That's not what the fuckin' website...

Site Rating:
H2, P2 w/observer

...says.

No one will sponsor a person without references.

See above.

The only way you get references there is to have an club approved instructor.

- See above.

- Where the fuck is the list of "club approved instructors"? Who's empowered to add and remove names from it and what qualifications do you have to have to make those determinations? How many club member dicks does one hafta suck to rate?

Learn2Glide is not an known school.

Define a "KNOWN" school - asshole. You talk to some Hyner Club asshole and he says, "I don't know that school." That makes it an unknown school and invalidates it? But if it's a KNOWN school, like Lockout...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20756
How is Zach Etheridge doing?

Bob Flynn - 2011/02/04 11:26:34 UTC

Lookout keeps this kind of stuff under their hat. You never hear of accidents there. But every time I go there, I hear about quite a few. Blown launches, tree landings, etc.

You're good to go, dude! We really respect a Hang Two from Matt Taber!

Hence...What they call the "H2 Hole"

- Who's "they"? Are any of "they"...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments. So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.

...the few masked people who are actually working on things?

- In other words, the Hyner good ol' boys have zero respect for the USHGA Instructional system and Pilot Proficiency Program. A Hang Two qualification and card is one hundred percent meaningless. A dues paying pilot from an Unknown School who subsidizes the Hyner site insurance and is compliant with what's up on the Hyner website can travel five hundred miles for a Memorial Day Weekend fly-in and be told to go fuck himself by any of the local and semilocal douchebags - even if this guy's a sailplane pilot with a thousand hours.

- So how come there's just a Hang Two Hole? If the USHGA instructional/rating system is that bankrupt then why aren't there Hang Three and Four Holes? How come the rating system gets abruptly valid after the Novice stage?

I doubt any of these students will ever become H3 and will eventually quit.

Fuck you, dude. Corey was doing a pretty goddam good job with the training experience, equipment, and situations he was dealing with. He came out of his little session one helluva lot better than Joe Julik came out of his at the end of last month.

You're saying that because someone may not be getting the best instruction on the planet he's fucked for life? I had some astoundingly crappy instruction as I was moving up through One, Two, Three. And I figured things out pretty goddam quick for the most part and learned to ignore and/or hate the perpetrators. And there were plenty - and still are a few - pilots in this sport who learned to fly with NO instruction. And the crap that passes nowadays has me solidly convinced that we should be moving back in that direction.

As I did years ago.
I doubt any of his students know about this.

Maybe 'cause you inbred Pagenville dickheads don't have it up on your stupid website?

Matt Christensen - 2014/10/24 05:06:41 UTC

It won't matter, if they are seriously injured or killed during "training."

People get seriously injured and killed in this sport all the time, all over the world, and at all stages of their "training" and "flying". And since we don't have any evidence of anyone so far getting so much as scratched or bruised at this operation how 'bout we refocus our attention on some of the people and operations that are getting away with murder?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


Pilot error. Shoulda kept the nose down. Nobody else did anything wrong on that career ender, right?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31979
To toss silk....Or not???

Jim Rowan - 2014/10/24 12:46:50 UTC

Several Instructors and our Regional Director have reached out to this Instructor to help him improve his business and teaching skills. Here's the Regional Director's response:

Ok guys please be nice to this guy, and encourage others to cut him slack. Also, please feel free to repost.

I personally spoke with the instructor yesterday. He was very, very responsive and open to the feedback. So I really feel that it is our duty to help him improve his skills and his business, and to make sure any/all criticism is constructive.

He is done operating for the year, and he has several instructors reaching out to him to help him better his business because we will all benefit from it.

Please let me know if there any other concerns about this that I may address.

Very truly yours,

Felipe Amunategui

Fuck you, Felipe.

I'm all for bringing new pilots into the sport and as a former Instructor/Special Observer, I know the time, effort, and investment that goes into teaching with little in the way of financial return to show for it. Hopefully, Matt will continue to evolve his business and I'll have more friends to fly with!

I'm hoping that enough decency filters into and thrives in the sport so that you'll have more permanent enemies to fly with.

Mike Badley - 2014/10/25 03:05:24 UTC

Well, it probably speaks well of the dude (Matt) that he is open to feedback - but I think he's far too inexperienced with personal hang gliding achievements to be able to be an effective instructor, and working at altitudes with students where they are going to get into trouble.

What altitudes are those, Mike? A lot of my more unpleasant flying experiences have occurred right around zero feet (zero meters) AGL.

I checked his WIKI profile (since his website had it prominently featured) - and he's a classic over-achiever.

Yeah, that was my impression.

Maybe that's not a bad thing, but those kinds of guys don't always do so well in this kind of role.

They don't LAST in this kind of role. There's just so long a person with a functional brain can teach beginning level hang gliding without going berserk with the boredom of the left/right/up/down crap. The only long time instructors we have are the low double digits IQ types who find each new day an intellectual challenge.

Nothing I saw on those videos would make me recommend his school to a newbie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_yTHPgNxsk

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7411/14165628916_bbdc682e28_o.png

As much as we need new blood, this wouldn't be the way to go about it if you want return visits from students.

Beats the crap outta the tandem thrill rides that have taken over the sport.

Carole Sherrington - 2014/10/25 11:39:46 UTC

What?
No instructor should be allowed to continue at all unless he meets a minmum standard of proficiency in instructing.

How do you think he got signed off?

And that minimum is high.

No doubt...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?

Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC

BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.

...whatsoever.

It's clear that this fellow's understanding of launching is deficient, and his instruction to students is lacking. There shouldn't be any evolution involved, or allowed. He needs to do an instructor's course and do some instruction under supervision.

Again, how are you imagining he got his ticket?

His aims may be laudable but not only is ignorance bliss, it's damn dangerous.

Yeah well...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face

Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c4YU7W0Ofc
2014 08 16 Corey
Learn2Glide LLC - 2014/08/18
dead

Foot versus dolly launch.
Omission of action to establish that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
Flying upright versus prone with hands on the downtubes versus basetube.
High pitch attitude near surface.
Tow bridle that contacts basetube.
Long thin versus short fat tow bridle.
Release that stinks on ice.
Bent versus straight pin release.
Flying with one versus two hands.
Flying with zero versus two hands.
Foot versus wheel landing.
Whipstalling glider to a dead stop.

Let's see how many boxes we can check. (Stills pulled from Flights 7, 6, 4, 5.)

42-112916
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3956/14981291104_887fd1a225_o.png


Commitment.

43-112925
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3937/15602872612_63edef4da7_o.png

44-113015
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3954/15578356266_1f5b4d2603_o.png


The inevitable hook-in check.

45-113128
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46-113313
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Release time. Both hands on the downtubes. Surface towing / steep tow angle requires a LOT more tension than aero to keep the glider climbing at something around the same rate. And I don't think there's a weak link in this system. Can't find any evidence of one on a bridle or the towline end. Much better having NO weak link instead of the pitch and lockout protector flavor but really stupid not having an overload protector. And combining no weak link with bent pin releases...

11-092522
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5605/15434774770_4cf4d913f5_o.png

12-092523
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5607/15416444480_e0d59b1f8a_o.png


Right hand comes off the downtube for starboard bent pin "release".

13-092602
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14-092613
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5608/15434359717_c6030ff75e_o.png

15-092621
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3952/15415410299_f2c2b0a805_o.png

16-092703
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3934/15620368575_81284413b3_o.png


Other hand comes off other downtube and the glider's flying itself.

17-092706
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5603/15596677396_60f33aeffc_o.png


Why? Anybody got any ideas other than he needs both hands...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?

Jim Rooney - 2010/05/30 10:54:17 UTC

Toma-y-to Toma-h-to

Back when Tad had his panties in a bunch, I decided to test things myself... it's easy to do... have a blast...

I took a single barrel release and hung it from the ceiling. I made a loop in a rope that allowed me to put my foot in the rope and be suspended an inch above the floor.

I opened the release.
Both open fine.
Curved pin was a little stiffer.

I filed it under Big Fing Deal.
I routinely use curved pin barrels to D-Bag.

...to pry that piece o' shit open? I'm gonna be operating under that assumption unless/until somebody comes up with something else plausible.

18-092710
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3947/15620367745_50560f4687_o.png


Got it!

19-092711
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3947/14981297144_0348f6c28c_o.png

20-092712
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3948/15599377651_d0263e0c86_o.png

21-092717
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3954/15434773110_ec1ceee1e0_o.png


Both hands coming back onto downtubes. Nice shot of starboard bent pin and port bent pin release. (Bridle detectable with effort.)

22-092720
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3956/14995747963_4ea303bde9_o.png

23-092721
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3945/15596676346_45f18633d5_o.png

24-092724
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5603/15434772500_1d235cd7b5_o.png


And we've now resumed flying our glider. Good thing we didn't hafta do that during an emergency but, what the hell, hang glider people virtually never release during emergencies anyway.

25-092727
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5603/15416043297_68bbf4731a_o.png


And NOW we start flying from the basetube. There's DEFINITELY a deliberate hang gliding culture institutionalized hazing process going on with this bullshit. The people who MOST need launch dollies, decent harnesses, proper flying configuration are the ones who get fed total crap in as many areas as possible until after they've gone through the initiation process.

26-093410
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Rare exception:

28-11505
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Note the bridle trapped between Corey's crossed feet. (They're always crossed from shortly after launch to shortly before landing.)

27-095407
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A few shots of the bridle/release assembly trailing. Note retrieval chute being reeled back in on this first.

03-033727
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04-035413
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05-041903
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06-073117
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3951/15621204942_a85949b0a7_o.png

07-081612
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08-082312
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09-082618
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10-082801
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If Corey keeps landing like that he will probably NOT break an arm or rip a shoulder apart. And he'll be BETTER prepared to land in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place when that inevitable moment arrives - as it does for ALL hang glider pilots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c4YU7W0Ofc
2014 08 16 Corey
Learn2Glide LLC - 2014/08/18
dead

Chris Donahue (zjuggler) - 2014/10/26 13:42:30 UTC
Virginia

Christopher Donahue - Virginia - 82367 - H3 - 2014/08/08 - Steve Wendt - AT FL PL ST RLF TUR

UNDOUBTEDLY Rich Donahue's son. Rich was a local contemporary of mine and the kid was getting into the scene, I think, in the mid Nineties.

Please don't make any assumptions about proper scooter towing from watching these learn2glide videos. If they have any value whatsoever, it would be as an example of what NOT to do with a scooter.

Not ENTIRELY. For example...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


I'm not seeing THAT happen. And I AM seeing takeoffs with high pitch attitudes and climb rates. But maybe...

Blue Sky Scooter Towing
Scooter Tow Video

More Details on Equipment:
V-Bridle/Release System

But with the towline we use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow... Uh... This... In this particular case it's 130 greenline, 130 pound test.

...in those particular cases he's not using with the towline a standard weak link like we would for aerotow, uh, 130 greenline, 130 pound test.

If you are interested in learning about how scooter towing should be done properly I highly recommend you get in touch with Steve Wendt at Blue Sky. He's one of the most knowledgeable...

Yeah...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?

Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC

BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.

So we've heard.

...and experienced...

Oh. He's highly experienced. Guess he must've really sucked when he started out and didn't have all that experience - like our Matt Philips buddy.

...scooter tow operators you will ever find.

How many have you looked for?

I think he sometimes offers workshops for instructors to learn how to teach using a scooter.

You mean the really good stuff that he refrained from including in...

http://www.willswing.com/learn/scooterTow/
Wills Wing - Scooter Tow Resources

...the Scooter Tow Manual, Scooter Tow Video, and Scooter Tow Equipment List?

I first crossed paths with Steve on 1984/02/11 - over thirty years ago - and in all that time I've never seen, heard, read a single goddam thing to indicate that he has exceptional knowledge or insight about a single goddam thing - in or out of hang gliding. Quite the opposite in fact. And I more than welcome anybody to cite a single goddam shred of evidence to the contrary.

And I got news for ya, Chris... There IS NO exceptional knowledge to be had in scooter towing, hang gliding in general, any aspect of it. If there were there'd be stuff published that would require a specialized Master's degree to understand. And that stuff is bloody well nonexistent.

All Steve does is kite flying and that's all he does. And, unlike the ten year old kid at the beach, he has somebody up on the kite greatly assisting him in keeping things together.

All that crap up at Wills Wing is simple common sense stuff - as far as it goes, anyway...

http://www.willswing.com/articles/ArticleList.asp#AerotowRelease
Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders

Always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.

...which isn't bloody very - that's been around since the beginning of time. Steve and Wills Wing emptied their collective brains out on it.

Wilbur and Orville invented aviation from scratch at the beginning of the previous century. But now we're all such stupid helpless muppets that we all need to go to Manquin to bask in in some stupid pin bender's exceptional knowledge in order to pull kites off the ground and skim them across the surface for a couple hundred yards.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31979
To toss silk....Or not???

U2Driver - 2014/10/26 14:39:32 UTC
Skowhegan

We have done lot's of Scooter towing at our field.We have used 50cc scooters all the way up to 250cc.The 50cc is primarily for new students that will only get a few feet off the ground.The 250 Honda Helix we had was capable of 1500-2000 agl tows easily.
Our instructor had Training from Steve Wendt.Seeing towing done right like anything, makes it look easy.That experience made all the difference.

- Try putting spaces after your periods - regardless of just how much extra effort that entails.

- But your instructor, despite the fact that he's been canonized by Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt and is now an ace scooter tower, is unable to transmit this expertise to anyone else. You've still gotta go down to Manquin for a clinic from the acknowledged world guru of this art form.

All these assholes who are believed by the general hang gliding public to be wise in the mysteries of hang gliding far beyond the comprehension of ordinary mortals have one thing in common. They never commit anything to interactive print.

Dennis Pagen and Mike Robertson have ZERO online presence.

Take an anti-nausea pill and read Davis. He must spend an hour per post making sure he never says anything definitive, of substance, that anyone can easily pin him down on later. He'll link to stuff giving the impression but never stating that he's in agreement with it. Fuckin' master of vagueness and ambiguity.

Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey...

http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks

Davis Straub - 1999/06/06

During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.

The problem with strong links (neither Bobby Bailey nor I was aware at the time of the US Nationals that pilots were doing this) is that they endanger the tug pilot. If the hang glider pilot goes into a lock out, and doesn't break the weaklink (because there isn't one), they can stall the tug.

One private discussion with Davis Dead-On Straub that gets relayed and he's Bobby Obvious-Fucking-Idiot Bailey.

Mike Meier and Steve Pearson...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

Hang gliders cannot be safely landed the way we - the largest hang glider manufacturer on the planet - tell you to safely land them.

Joe Greblo... Rare example:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30483
Aero-Tow Lockout Violent Pitching & Near Tumble

Joe Greblo - 2013/12/19 22:54:37 UTC

Gosh there's a lot going on in that video, and it's probably a wonderful learning tool for everyone. So glad you're ok. In watching a few times, it seems clear that you were spared much harsher consequences when your nose wire severed the tow bridle near the nose of the glider. Up until that point, things were getting awfully bad, awfully fast.

It's also tremendously helpful to so clearly observe how the upper tow bridle gets dangerously close to the glider's nose wires when the tug got high above you. Your control loss seems consistent with the bridle pushing against the right front flying wire. Trying to get out of a left turn might not even be possible when... 1) the right wing is being lifted from the nose wire; 2) when the high wing is under a large load and the glider is not allowed to adverse yaw to the left to allow a right turn, and 3) when the pilot is restricted from lowering the angle of attack because the nose is being lifted near the nose plate.

I'll leave it to the tow experts to discuss the methods of preventing the tow bridles or tow line from coming in contact with the flying wires, but at least now we have a clear video as to why it's important.

I'm sure others will add to your own observations in an effort to help you and others prevent this from happening again.

All the best,

Joe

BIG mistake.

Steve Wendt... If that motherfucker had opened his mouth in any of the Zack Marzec postmortem discussions we'd have demolished him the same way we did his ill Rooney protégé.

Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2871
speed link

Jim Rooney - 2007/12/13 18:07:02 UTC

I bring up the Oz Forum cuz I seriously believe you fear peer review.

It's easy to rant and rave here on this group because most here are very civil and there's no moderation. Not so over at Oz. There are also very highly qualified individuals lurking there. I honestly think you're afraid.
But of course you'll have an excuse for not going there.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

There OBVIOUSLY were no very highly qualified individuals lurking on The Davis Show, or anywhere else for that matter - never have been, never will be. "Highly qualified" individuals with any substance whatsoever don't lurk. They go on the record when they see problems.

Rooney was/is a stupid incompetent opportunistic cowardly little fraud who positioned himself as God's Gift To Aviation then started believing the hype he was getting from his patsies and co-conspirators. And when he started exposing himself to too much well directed enemy fire...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/30 02:16:16 UTC

They're not here cuz they don't feel like arguing all the time.
Most of the other people "in the business" don't come here cuz it turns into a shouting match too often.

Look how uppity people got when I even termed people "in the business" "professional pilots".
It's accurate, but some got all offended. They couldn't stand that someone doesn't see their uninformed opinion as holding as much weight as an informed one.
I know (very) basic electronics, but I don't argue with the electrician about which capacitor he uses for the timing circuit in my toaster. It's just not my field.

I know a lot of regular joes that do the same... for the same reason. There's a lot of lurkers here that really really do not care to get sucked into the mud.

I can't blame them, I avoid this place on a regular basis.
It's a shame too, cuz there's a lot of really really nice people in HG. Most are.
And all this sewing circle, drama queen bullshit keeps a lot of very informed people away... ya'll miss out on a lot.
The actual "insider" discussions, that you never see, are so much better.

But man oh man, do people not feel the need to even be civil here sometimes.
Have a think about that next time you're off on a tirade.
(not directed at you Tommy, just in general)

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Your anecdotal opinion is supposed to sway me?
You forget, every tow flight you take requires a tug pilot... we see EVERY tow.
We know who the rockstars are and who the muppets are.
Do you have any idea how few of us there are?
You think we don't talk?
I'll take our opinion over yours any day of the week.

Ok, I'm tired of this.
I'm not really sure who you're trying to convince.
Again, I don't care to argue this stuff.
I'll answer actual questions if you're keen to actually hear the answers, but arguing with me? Really? Have fun with that.

Gimme a call when you think of something that we haven't already been through years ago... cuz to date, you have yet to come up with anything new. Well, maybe it's new to you I guess. It's old as dirt to me though.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.
This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.

See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.

But then there's a crowd that "knows better". To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".
(Holy god, the names I've been called.)

I have little time for these people.

It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments. So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.

A fun saying that I picked up... Some people listen with the intent of understanding. Others with the intent of responding.
I like that.

For fun... if you're not seeing what I mean... try having a conversation here about wheels.

Mounds of pathetic crap that no one would be able to use to snow a below average third grader for more that about fifteen to thirty seconds.

Don Arsenault - 2014/10/26 16:25:50 UTC

Michael Robertson is another excellent source for towing information & education.

Yeah, thanks Don, I just mentioned him. Maybe you could persuade him to engage in some discourse on The Jack Show. There's one or two Tad Clones over there who could have a lotta fun with him.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31979
To toss silk....Or not???

Scott Howard - 2014/10/27 02:44:46 UTC
Tonto Basin

and why was the student allowed to go that high with out a parachute. at mission soaring center...

...where it's a REALLY good idea to fly with a parachute...

162-20727
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...given that the people on the ground running things are all incompetent total morons...

...we couldn't go above 300' w/o one.

Didn't do you any good though, did it?

I can agree that this instructor needs more classes /courses in teaching the sport...

And we need the video you promised to post after people ponied up the dinero to get you back home.

...and some supervision from an instructor who has alot more experience.

Maybe you could set this guy straight. Have you recovered from your last tow well enough to be walking again? (I see you're still having problems with the little fingers one normally uses to depress the shift keys.) You could team up with Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney. Surface tow, aero tow, weak links, releases, weak links, landings... Think of all the bases you'd have covered.

Somebody signed him off on a Three, somebody put him through an instructor clinic and signed that ticket. He's qualified. If you've got a problem with that take it up with the rating and appointment officials.

glad to see the pilot kept his cool and flew the glider 1st.

- So maybe his instructor actually DOESN'T totally suck.

- As opposed to WHAT? The chute was snagged inboard and wasn't problematically affecting control. Were you expecting him to start screaming in terror and pulling his helmet down over his face so he wouldn't hafta watch the unfolding horror?

- What's he doing here?:

18-092710
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3947/15620367745_50560f4687_o.png


Talk about COOL! Flying the glider with ZERO hands while prying his Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey Release open with TWO. And then going back up on the same crap! Talk about your righteous stuff, dude! Definitely not a flat sacker like T** at K*** S****** and his totally gay straight pin releases! (Hang gliding - the only sport in which gay and straight are equally and totally despised.)

thanks for sharing.

Yes. This is such a sharing/caring sport. Brings tears to my eyes. Now how 'bout sharing YOUR video, motherfucker?