Kite Strings

Rooney Link increasing the safety of the towing operation at Forbes.

3:48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL5r1bSFRzA

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.
This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.

See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.

But then there's a crowd that "knows better". To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".
(Holy god, the names I've been called.)

I have little time for these people.

It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments. So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.

A fun saying that I picked up... Some people listen with the intent of understanding. Others with the intent of responding.
I like that.

For fun... if you're not seeing what I mean... try having a conversation here about wheels.

My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.

You'da thunk we'd have all gotten it by now, wouldn't ya? Maybe you could dumb things down enough for us muppets to just get the basics.

This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.

In stark contrast to the almost totally silent minority...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

This btw is one of the main reasons that most of the professionals do not bother with the forums.
Cuz it's generally a bitchfest around here.

...which is just so vastly superior to us weekend warrior muppets who buy the tows, Dragonflies, and runways that keep these operations solvent that any attempt to educate us would be an exercise in total futility.

If Malcolm Jones, Russell Brown, Steve Kroop, or a fucking genius like Bobby Bailey were to attempt to describe the trial and error testing through which a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot was determined to be the ideal aerotow weak link for all one and two point solos it would be as if Brian Greene were attempting to explain quantum physics to a Labrador Retriever.

Strange, though, that when there are discussions about such things as:
- glider, harness, parachute design
- aluminum alloy characteristics
- thermal soaring conditions
- thermalling techniques
- landing approaches
- platform towing

the conversations tend not to be bitchfests. Any ideas on why that is?

See, most people are happy with how we do things.

Yeah Jim, most people are Paul Hurless, Craig Hassan, Marc Fink, Lauren Tjaden caliber vegetables who will happily swallow whatever crap is first fed to them and never question anything.

This isn't an issue for them.

Nothing's EVER an issue to them. Which is why they NEVER leave anything better than, or, most of the time, even as good as, they found it.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

They just keep prying away until they manage to break something loose an assume they'll never have a problem down low where it matters.

They just come out and fly.

Yep...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i4owd0akd0
A Winter at Quest Air

Zack Marzec - 2013/02/01

FLY FLY FLY

Real bummer that you've got that vocal minority which:
- isn't happy with how you do things
- has issues with people popping off tow and tumbling to their deaths
- wants releases that:
-- work under load and with the reliability of VG systems
-- allow it to maintain continuous control of the glider
- is fed up with losing flying days because of the mandatory fishing line that blows at random when everything's under control
- wants its tows to be conducted in compliance with FAA safety regulations
- believes that:
-- aerotowing could be conducted with at least the same control, predictability, and safety as slope launched flying
-- all aerotow crashes are easily explainable and easily avoidable
- resents being referred to as muppets
- won't automatically defer to any proclamation of whatever egomaniacal Dragonfly jockey happens to be closest at the time

Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life...

Really? My experience with aviation is that when things aren't perfect that - sooner or later - translates to easily preventable death.

...and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.

Yeah.

"This is your captain speaking. Welcome to Southwest Flight 1556 to Atlanta. Most people are happy with how we do things. They just come out and fly. Things aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on. So with our usual luck we won't whipstall back into the runway. And if that's not good enough for you then you can go fuck yourself."

And when all you've got is spinnaker shackles, bicycle brake levers, velcro, bent parachute pins, and 130 pound test fishing line you just do what you can with that, pronounce it to be the pinnacle of human engineering achievement, move on, and never worry about the number of people it kills.

But then there's a crowd that "knows better".

Your triple digit IQ types. Malcontents. Total scumbags.

To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".

"The truth" being, of course, that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
There isn't going to be some "oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment. The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.

- "You", the people who work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
- This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
- You have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
- You know what you're doing - so we don't have to.
- We have to realize the depth of experience we're dealing with here.
- There isn't going to be some "Oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment.
- The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.

Just like in conventional recreational, private, commercial, military aviation.

(Holy god, the names I've been called.)

(And here you are just trying to make the world a better and safer place...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 19:22:18 UTC

Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/06 01:42:41 UTC

Oh god, I've been offensive to people that I hold in contempt.
How will I ever sleep at night?

...for everyone. Go figure.)

I have little time for these people.

And infinite time for the Kinsley Sykes types with their noses permanently stuck up your ass.

It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things.

I don't understand how the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things.

- Davis ALWAYS locks down topics...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31383
Enough of this.

Davis Straub - 2013/03/12 18:32:37 UTC

Okay, folks, this forum us beginning to turn into a cesspool.
Stop it now or I start kicking people out of here.

...and bans and deletes posts of the fanatic fringe whenever it starts winning battles and backs any 130 pound Greenspot bent pin crap...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Davis Straub - 2011/07/30 19:51:54 UTC

I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.

...that's ever flowed out of Quest (Bobby's ass).

- The ONLY people who are actually working on BETTER things are the professionals who run the flight parks and they won't let anybody fly anything they don't sell. Everything else is completely untested and very experimental homemade funky shit which will likely fail in new and unforeseen ways as it tries its damnedest to kill you.

- And surely Dr. Trisa Tilletti will publish another Higher Education article in the magazine...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

What we have covered in this article is practical information and knowledge gleaned from the real world of aerotowing, developed over decades and hundreds of thousands of tows by experts in the field. This information has practical external validity. Hopefully, someone will develop methods and technology that work better than what we are using as standard practice today. Like the methods and technology used today, it is unlikely that the new technology will be dictated onto us as a de jure standard. Rather, to become a de facto standard, that new technology will need to be made available in the marketplace, proven in the real world, and then embraced by our sport.

...to make sure that the public stays informed of the best technology available at all times.

But in any case...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC

Is it clear what I mean by "We"?
I didn't make the system up.
And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)

If it actually were possible to improve on anything wouldn't Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey have already done it twenty years ago? Ya know...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2871
speed link

JD Guillemette - 2008/02/07 12:51:57 UTC

It just bothers me when people try to "improve" upon Bobby Bailey's designs ... simply put, the designs are at the maximum of efficiency and safety. So I'm right back to where I was. I see no problem in the way things are currently done and creating overly complicated mouth actuated releases is just a waste of time.

Let's face it, the difference in release time from a Bailey release to a mouth release is insignificant regardless if you have to use your hand or not. The real problem is the pilot not recognizing a tow going bad and staying on the line too long. Once you have locked out, using your hand to affect a release is the least of your problems, your locked out ... you have no control until the connection to the tow line is severed.

It just bothers me when people try to "improve" upon Bobby Bailey's designs. Simply put, they're at the maximum of efficiency and safety. I see no problem in the way things are currently done...


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


...and creating overly complicated mouth actuated releases is just a waste of time.

The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments.

If only they understood that:
- "You", the people who work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
- This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
- You have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
- You know what you're doing - so they don't have to.
- They have to realize the depth of experience they're dealing with there.
- There isn't going to be some "Oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment.
- The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.

Then the would just defer to everything you say and harmony would reign supreme for all eternity.

So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.

Yes, but what a pity it is that there's no record of these conversations. So we can't quote you contradicting yourself left and right and lying like a rug at every opportunity - like we can when you put stuff in print.

A fun saying that I picked up... Some people listen with the intent of understanding. Others with the intent of responding.
I like that.

Yes...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10

Instead of looking for an argument, you may consider listening instead.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC

I'm glad to see someone is listening rather than arguing.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 23:18:54 UTC

Some people listen with the intent of understanding.

Others do so with the intent of responding.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC

As I said many times... there are those that listen with the intent of responding... you unfortunately are one.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/10 08:12:02 UTC

If you'd stop and actually listen rather than just collecting things to argue about, you might actually learn what the hell I'll tow and what I won't.
But alas, that's not going to happen.
Some people just live to argue.
You can't help it. I know, I know.
I'd say it's ok, but it wouldn't be true.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/10 22:58:21 UTC

Jim has inferred... No, you have assumed.
Or better, you're not listenin , you're looking for stuff to argue about.

We've noticed. To the total vegetables which constitute your cult following it makes you sound like some Jedi Master and helps disguise the fact that you have no clue what you're talking about and...

Deltaman - 2013/02/16 22:41:36 UTC

How is that possible to write so much ..and say NOTHING !?

...aren't saying anything.

For fun... if you're not seeing what I mean... try having a conversation here about wheels.

Sorry, Yoda. That one didn't work either.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things.

- WHAT:
-- "FEW" people?
-- "THINGS"?

- You're not naming anyone or anything because, in fact, none of your crowd has done a single goddam thing in over two decades that didn't make the shoddy crap Bobby pulled out of his ass at the beginning of Dragonfly aerotowing even worse.

- Here's a list of items involved in a Dragonfly tow system:
-- tug:
--- release actuation system
--- release mechanism
--- tow mast
--- bridle
--- primary weak link
--- secondary weak link
--- tow rings
--- towline
-- glider:
--- primary:
---- release:
----- actuation system
----- assembly
---- bridle
---- weak link
--- secondary:
---- release
---- bridle
---- weak link

- Evaluation...

-- The tug release system is a knockoff of the Schweizer sailplane release system and is, in practice, one hundred percent solid.

-- No problems worth mentioning with the tug bridle, towline, or tow rings.

-- Zero Dragonflies, which NEVER use secondary weak links, and close to zero gliders, which virtually never have weak links at both ends of all wrap capable bridles, are configured such that weak links can't be taken entirely out of the equation.

-- Virtually all weak link systems are dangerously and illegally understrength.

-- The tow mast with its breakaway function is an insane, moronic, and illegal piece of crap which ensures that virtually all tows put the glider at risk - especially since the advent of the three strand tow mast breakaway protector.

-- All glider release and bridle systems are cheap, shoddy, inaccessible, failure prone, zilch load capacity collections of junk.

- So tell me, motherfucker... Name ONE THING any of you assholes have done to fix a problem in the past couple of decades.

- And, no, further dumbing down weak links to try to compensate for releases that can't be accessed and/or don't work when they are doesn't count - or work - as a fix.

- And when somebody like Yours Truly, Steve Kinsley, or Joe Street provides a fix for you, you won't take it as a gift and instead devote all of your energies to pissing all over it because it's homemade funky shit with a short track record and comes from outside The Priesthood.

- Are these "things" on which these few people are actually working things that could get someone killed - or are they just new webbing colors to go better with different colored harnesses?

- If the former is there any chance we could get some idea of what these "things" are so that during the extensive research and development phase we can avoid situations in which these things are likely to kill us?

- It's been a day over two months since you fed us this bullshit implying that there are a few people who are actually working on things. Name an actual fix from the entire history of hang glider towing that took a more than two or three days to engineer, construct, test, and implement.

- And a fix that would've turned Zack Maczec's fatal tow into a nonevent would've involved installing double loops of 130 pound Greenspot on the tug and glider bridles and taken less than a minute at each end of the operation and - after now three months and two days - you stupid lying pigfuckers can't even do that much.

1996/07/25 - Bill Bennett / Mike Del Signore

Problem:

Dennis Pagen - 1997/01

Let me begin with the accident involving Bill Bennett and Mike Del Signore which occurred in July in Ohio, since this accident seems to be the catalyst which started this recent flurry of discussion. As a good friend of Bill's and recipient of the verbal and written reports of eyewitnesses, I believe I can shed some light on the situation.

Tug outclimbs glider and stays high while glider mushes and tip stalls.

Solution:

Dennis Pagen - 1997/01

Fourth the weak link was way too strong.

The weak link was at the top end was tested after the accident to break at over 300 pounds (it was constructed from 205 Dacron line). Because of this doubling effect of the bridle, this would require a towline force of over 600 pounds to break. This is way too high. There is no known reason for the failure of the tug release since it was tested before and after the accident with a realistic tow force.

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Three recent aerotowing accidents have occurred--one fatal. The common thread in all three was a lockout and the use of a much too heavy weak link. Tandem gliders are much less responsive than smaller gliders and the pilot in command often has a less than ideal position on the control bar. The situation shouldn't be compromised by an over-strength weak link.

Use a lighter weak link.

2005/01/09 - Robin Strid

Problem:

http://ozreport.com/9.009
2005 Worlds

Davis Straub - 2005/01/11

Rohan Holtkamp did an analysis of the accident, in particular the bridle and weaklink, which never broke. The weaklink was caught on the release mechanism, a standard spinnaker release found on bridle systems used at Lookout Mountain, Moyes, Wallaby Ranch, and Quest Air. The release clamp has an arm that is thicker at the release point and this held onto the weaklink which consisted of multiple loops of thick line.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318769461/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318781297/

Dangerous release configuration.



Solution:

http://ozreport.com/9.009
2005 Worlds

Davis Straub - 2005/01/11

This type of release mechanism has been banned (at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay.

Realizing the problem with weaklinks, we will now all be required to fly with a weaklink system (perhaps in addition to our own) that will be supplied by the meet organizers. It will be set for 85 to 90 KG. It will be placed between our system and the tow line.

The weak link system with consist of a ring, the weaklink material and a snap hook to attach to the line. We will be given a fresh weaklink every time and release from the weaklink.

Ban the release mechanism (at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay and use a lighter weak link.

2013/03/02 - Zack Marzec

Problem:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png


Standard aerotow weak link breaks...

Donnell Hewett - 1981/10

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation,"...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation.

Solution:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC

You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.

Use a lighter weak link.
...
Problem:

Escalating violence in the Middle East...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

To:
Davis Straub; Tow Group
Cc:
Rohan Holtkamp; Paris Williams
Subject:
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Davis,

Your weak link comments are dead on.

Yeah...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

From section 3.4 of the 1999 Hang Gliding Federation of Australia Towing Manual:

Recommended breaking load of a weak link is 1g. - i.e. the combined weight of pilot, harness and glider (dependent on pilot weight - usually approximately 90 to 100 kg for solo operations; or approximately 175 kg for tandem operations).

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Davis Straub - 2011/07/31 17:55:25 UTC

To break under load before the glider does.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.

Right.

I have been reading the weak link discussion in the OR with quiet amusement.

- Guess you were reading all the Zack Marzec postmortem discussions in the OR with quiet amusement too - motherfucker.
- Were you also reading Dr. Trisa Tilletti's article on weak links in the 2012/06 issue of Hang Gliding with quiet amusement?

Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots...

The people with their noses stuck up the asses of you USHGA and flight park shits versus the people capable of doing grade school arithmetic.

...and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality...

While I have you on the phone... Maybe you could explain to us the "thinking" that went into...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Davis Straub - 2011/07/30 19:51:54 UTC

I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.

...the "designed there" mentality that gave us the Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) standard aerotow weak link.

...and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate.

You have no fuckin' idea how much you didn't wanna get drawn into a debate - especially now that we've multiplied by a factor of around three the force of combatants capable of ripping your your freakin' head off and handing it back to you on a platter.

Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel.

Because the "wheel" you off the scale stupid pigfuckers invented...

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus

"Oh God! Did the line break or something?"

...is illegal for any glider over 282 pounds max certified flying weight and dangerous for ANY glider.

Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition.

And no glider has EVER...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

...suffered structural failure as a consequence of excessive tow tension. Hard to beat a track record like that.

Likewise if you mandate a uniform of shorts, cotton T-shirt, and sandals for an Everest climb you can be one hundred percent certain that you will lose no climbers to heat stroke.

Yes I know some of these have been with strong links...

The ones who wanna get their gliders airborne in under three attempts.

...but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

Yeah...

Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).

The BEST of the BEST. No fags - just REAL men. Double the Righteous Stuff, double the number of 130 pound Greenspot strands.

You are completely correct about weak links and lockouts. If I can beat the horse a little more...

You can do whatever the fuck you want - you sleazy lying goddam Aerotow Industry pigfucker. You're still gonna be a sleazy lying goddam Aerotow Industry pigfucker.

Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot.

- Oh! So then what you're saying is...

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

Wallaby Ranch Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2013/05/06

If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Quest Air Aerotow FAQ

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider.

Hang Gliding For Beginner Pilots
Official Flight Training Manual of the United States Hang Gliding Association

Lockouts can be prevented by using good technique, light tow pressures, and appropriately-sized weak links--if you get too far off heading, and a lockout begins to develop, a proper weak link will break and release you from tow.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

We want our weak links to break as early as possible in lockout situations, but be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent weak link breaks from turbulence. It is the same expectation of performance that we have for the weak links we use for towing sailplanes.

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

A weak link is the focal point of a safe towing system.

A weak link is a very simple device--typically a loop of line--that is intended to break in the event towline tensions exceed a safe or desired threshold.

A weak link is required that will not break needlessly in response to moderate thermals, or pilot inputs, yet will break at a low enough point to avoid disaster or excessive pilot panic.

Weak links very clearly will provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for this form of towing.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.

...that Matt, Dave, Bobby, Russell, Matt, Davis, Paul, Lauren, Trisa, Dennis, and Bill are totally full of shit.

- And we can't use anything over 130 pound Greenspot to protect the equipment or we're gonna start seeing six G gliders ripped apart.

Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.

- Any ONE who believes otherwise is setting THEM SELVES up for disaster. Who are the rest of THEM?
- Name half a dozen glider jockeys who DON'T believe otherwise.

The pilot activating his or her releases is their way to save themselves.

- Especially the pilot with multiple personality disorder.

- Yeah...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

Right.

I notice you've spent a great deal of time reading the release discussions in the OR with quiet amusement while people who AREN'T quietly amused are trying to reinvent your fuckin' wheel and get releases that can actually be USED in emergency situations...


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


...into circulation.

A perfect analogy is the circuit breaker in your home, it is there to protect the wire not what you plug into the wall socket. If anyone does not believe me they can plug their car retrieve 2-way radio into the wall socket and watch it go up in flames with the circuit breaker cumfortably...

Sounds like a description of a relaxing sexual climax. How 'bout getting competent in grade school level grammar and spelling before you start telling us how quietly amused you are - asshole.

...remaining in the on position (I hope no one really tries this .

No. But they ARE gonna keep trying to use the wheel you pigfuckers invented as lockout protectors and that's gonna keep getting them crashed...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


...out of this sport and...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...out of this life.

A discussion of the strength of weak links is incomplete without a discussion of the tow bridal.

How 'bout getting competent in grade school level grammar and spelling before you start telling us how quietly amused you are - asshole.

I hear (read) strengths quoted with respect to the combined pilot and glider weight yet this is meaningless info with out knowing what bridal configuration is used and where it is placed in the bridal system.

- It's fuckin' meaningless when quoted with respect to the combined pilot and glider weight because the combined pilot and glider weight tells one NOTHING about the glider's CAPACITY - which is the only thing we need to know when determining weak link strength.

- Anybody who talks about combined pilot and glider weight is thinking of the weak link as a lockout protector - and that means YOU, motherfucker.

- In hang gliding the strengths of double, triple, and quadruple strand 130 pound Greenspot weak links are strictly matters of opinion so it doesn't really matter where they're placed in bridle systems. Anyone can call the towline tension anything he feels like.

- Just how many locations are aerotow weak links installed at anyway, asshole? They're ALWAYS on bridle ends therefore and ALWAYS seeing about half the towline load.

- On two point bridles they're seeing half the load plus, due to the apex angle, about fifteen percent. But you're not saying anything about that.

For example, a 200# weak link can allow between 200# and 800# of towline force depending on where it is placed within the various popular bridal configurations.

- BULLSHIT. NOBODY (except for Lookout tandems) flies without a primary weak link on a primary bridle end.

- I beg to differ...

Quest Air Aerotow FAQ

Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider.

Regardless of where you put a 260 pound standard aerotow weak link in the BRIDAL system the max towline force is still 260 pounds - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. (According to you wheel inventors anyway.)

- You forgot to tell everybody about how:

-- putting weak links on both ends of a bridle...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release

Juan Saa - 2012/10/18 01:19:49 UTC

The normal braking force in pounds for a weak link is around 180, at least that is the regular weak link line used at most aerotow operations. By adding a second weak link to your bridal you are cutting the load on each link by half, meaning that the weak link will not break at the intended 180 pounds but it will need about 360.
If that is what you use and is what your instructor approved then I have no business on interfering, i dont know if you are using the same weak link material but there shoul be only ONE weak link on a tow bridle for it to be effective in breaking before higher loads are put into you and the glider should the glider gets to an attitude or off track so much that the safety fuse of the link is needed to break you free from the tug.
I made the same mistake on putting two weak links thinking that I was adding protection to my setup and I was corrected by two instructors on separate occacions at Quest Air and at the Florida RIdge.

...causes them to double their strengths

-- not putting weak links on both ends of a bridle...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

I witnessed a tug pilot descend low over trees. His towline hit the trees and caught. His weak link broke but the bridle whipped around the towline and held it fast. The pilot was saved by the fact that the towline broke!

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC

Oh it happens.
I have, all the guys I work with have.
(Our average is 1 in 1,000 tows)

Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.

...can reduce your probability of HAVING a weak link when you're most likely to NEED a weak link to under fifty percent.

On the tow plane we use 1-1/2 loops (3 strands) of 130# line.

Really?

You use a double loop / four strands on the tandems...

Quest Air Aerotow FAQ

For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading.

...to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading.

Sometimes you hafta use a double loop on the solos...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 16:45:39 UTC

We used these with Russell Brown's (tug owner and pilot) approval at Zapata after we kept breaking weaklink in light conditions in morning flights.

...when you wanna get them off the ground in light morning conditions.

Why would you use something lighter...

http://ozreport.com/5.126
Flytec Dragonfly

USAFlytec - 2001/07/14

Steve Kroop - Russell Brown - Bob Lane - Jim Prahl - Campbell Bowen

The tail section of the Dragonfly is designed so that it can accept in-line as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive in-line or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle. More simply put, the mast would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC

That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened).

...up front? Wouldn't that be a blatant and dangerous violation of federal aerotowing regulations?

The weak link is placed in the top of a V-bridal which would yield a maximum nominal towline tension of around 780#.

Yeah, 130 times three times two. What could be more simple than that?

However, due to the fact the knots (two are required since there are three strands) are not "buried" the maximum towline tension is greatly reduced.

Well yeah. There are TWO knots not buried.
- So knock off fifty percent for the first knot and we're down to 390 towline.
- And then knock off fifty percent for the second and we're down to 195 towline.

I do not know the exact tow line tension required to break this weak link...

But you've got all this time to sit back and read the weak link discussion in the OR with quiet amusement.

...but the value is somewhat moot since the weak link is not too strong so as to cause any damage to the tow plane...

Particularly the part of the tow plane Bobby designed to be damaged so that he could use Dragonfly drivers too stupid and incompetent to ensure that a weak was installed either at the upper bridle end and/or at the front end of the towline.

...and it is not too weak to leave the glider pilot with the towline.

UNLESS the glider's a:
- tandem flying with a "standard tandem aerotow weak link"; or
- mid to upper range solo flying with a mid safety/legal range weak link.

Summary

Do not attempt to aerotow unless you have received proper training

Which is totally nonexistent anywhere in the US and virtually nonexistent anywhere in the world.

Do not attend an aerotow comp if you do not have considerable experience flying a comp class glider in comp class conditions

So Zack Marzec would've been good to go on the afternoon of 2013/02/02 if that had been a comp round?

Weak links are there to protect the equipment

- REALLY well.
- Are there any downsides to protecting equipment that's well over a thousand pounds under any point at which it NEEDS protection?

Weak links do NOT prevent lockouts and no amount of weak link rules will prevent lock outs

But keep on writing them anyway. Ya never really know.

In the event of a lock out releases are there to save the pilot

What kind of release would you recommend? Seems like a pretty critical piece of equipment to me and the crap that the same people who invented the standard aerotow weak link wheel fails left and right.

Best regards, Steve - Flytec USA

Go fuck yourself.

P.S.

Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Why "ONLY"? If:

Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot.

then why does the flavor of towing make any difference?

Hey Steve...

- Shouldn't there be some sort of relationship between glider flying weight...

Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition.

...and weak link strength - or are we OK with putting a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot on any bridle on any glider that can be plopped on a launch dolly?

- Can you define what a "strong link" is...

Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

...in terms of Gs?

- Are there any possible downsides to using weak links at the lower or off the bottom end of...

Safety Notice - 2006/03/15

David G. Broyles, Chairman of Safety and Training Committee
Steve Kroop, Chairman of Tow Committee
Paul Voight, Chairman of Tandem Committee

Should the tandem glider become unattached from the tug during this maneuver, the nose high attitude of the tandem glider attained while doing this will cause a very abrupt stall which will result in a much greater altitude loss than one would expect (possibly more than 750 ft.) The most extreme cases may result in structural failure of the glider.

...the FAA legal range?

- Shouldn't...

Steve Kroop - 53628 - H4 - 1993/07/28 - James Tindle
- AT PL TAT TFL TPL TST AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
- AT SUP - EXAM - TUG PILOT

...Aerotow Pilots, Platform Launch Pilots, Tandem Aerotow Instructors, Tandem Platform Launch Instructors, Tandem Surface Tow Instructors, Aerotow Supervisors, Examiners, Towing Committee Chairmen...

I do not know the exact tow line tension required to break this weak link but the value is somewhat moot since the weak link is not too strong so as to cause any damage to the tow plane and it is not too weak to leave the glider pilot with the towline.

...know the strengths of their weak links to an accuracy more precise than "not too strong so as to cause any damage to the tow plane and not too weak to leave the glider pilot with the towline"? Something in pounds or Gs maybe?

- If weak links are there to protect the equipment...

Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot.

...not the glider pilot, then why are only...

Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

...the best of the best aerotow pilots flying "strong links"? Is it because they're flying stronger gliders less prone to being ripped apart by...

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 16:45:39 UTC

We used these with Russell Brown's (tug owner and pilot) approval at Zapata after we kept breaking weaklink in light conditions in morning flights.

...double loops of 130 pound Greenspot?

- Who are the best of the best aerotow pilots aerotow pilots and...

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

...what are they capable of doing that we muppets aren't?

- Wouldn't the best of the best aerotow pilots be able to stay in position better than us muppets and therefore be able to fly lighter weak links and enjoy the extra safety margins they provide?

- Oh, wait. I forgot. Weak links are there to protect the equipment...

Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot.

...not the glider pilot. This is so VERY confusing for me.

- So what would happen if you put a muppet like me up on a strong link? Would I lock out worse than a best of the best rock star like...


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


...Davis or fail to release the towline before there is a problem?

- Why has there never been anything in sailplane manuals, FAA aerotowing regulations, or USHGA SOPs correlating pilot proficiency with weak link rating?

- Why, in actual hang glider aerotowing practice, is it...

Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition.

...the much lighter pilot/glider combos flying the much higher G ratings? Are the little chick types that much more likely to be the best of the best aerotow pilots...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

I rarely break weak links -- in fact, I believe the last one was some two years ago, and I have never broken one on a tandem (probably because I am light and also because I change them whenever they show any signs of wear). They are a good thing to have, though!!

...than the big dude types?

Go fuck yourself, Steve.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC

It's no fun having an inadvertent low weak link break when you are low so we don't want this weak link too weak.

No shit, Paul.

Any further thoughts on the Zack Marzec fatality three months and six days ago? Think he might have had more fun without the inadvertent weak link break?

Think maybe there's a reason that the USHGA SOPs have you conning your students into believing that Quest Link blows are no big fuckin' deals...

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2012/06/20
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
12. Hang Gliding Aerotow
-A. Aerotow

05. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.

...way up high and in smooth air?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC

Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years and I can say that the steel ring, polished or not, has a greater tendency to wrap than the small aluminum carabiners.

Have you given any thought to designing wrap resistant bridles to improve your probability to surviving a low level lockout emergency to...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC

Oh it happens.
I have, all the guys I work with have.
(Our average is 1 in 1,000 tows)

Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.

...something better than fifty percent? If you use thick bridles you can totally eliminate the possibility.

http://ozreport.com/9.098
The thin 1500 pound aerotow bridle

Davis Straub - 2005/05/03

What do you need a 4000 pound bridle for?

Diver Bob (Maloney45) came up with another invention. I unfortunately lost the pictures of his very slick bridles, but he has created two aerotow bridles from Spectra and Vectran lines in thicknesses used for shroud lines on parachutes. The Spectra lines are very thin but can handle 750 pounds. You put a weaklink on that that can handle 200 pounds (about). Why do you need a stronger bridle line? So far there is very little wear on the bridle line.

Bob uses Vectran for the three point bridle. The Vectran leg goes to the keel. Vectran is used because it can handle the heat generated when the Spectra line on the shoulders is released and slides through the loop at the end of the Vectran.

Bob's aerotow shoulder-only bridles costs $8. The three point bridle costs $15. You'll also need to get a barrel release (http://www.questairforce.com) and either the larger or smaller one with work fine. I use the larger one.

Bob Lane said that Quest Air sold over 40 of their bridles (and Bob sold 15 or 20) during the Nationals. The Quest Air bridles use thicker Spectra and are designed not to whip around and accidentally tie themselves to the carabineer. Bob says his bridles will not do this either.

It is great to see these safer, simpler, and easy to use aerotow bridles becoming popular.

And you can also use thin bridles to totally eliminate the possibility.

There are other obvious reasons a heavy steel ring is not a great idea swinging around at the end of a 250 foot line.

There are also pretty fuckin' obvious reasons not to:

- put release actuators...


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


...where you have no possibility of getting to them in emergencies

- incorporate bent pins...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8331326948/


...in your barrel release "designs"

- go up behind some asshole who's told you that...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg


...he can fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope

- go up on a chintzy piece of fishing line...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png


...to very clearly provide protection from...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...excessive angles of attack

But none of those items have seemed to bother any of you stupid motherfuckers in the slightest at any point in the past twenty years that you've been perfecting aerotowing.

On the chest line we normally run a double weak link on one end just as we do with the primary.

Make sure you just put a weak link on ONE end. You wouldn't wanna...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release

Juan Saa - 2012/10/18 01:19:49 UTC

The normal braking force in pounds for a weak link is around 180, at least that is the regular weak link line used at most aerotow operations. By adding a second weak link to your bridal you are cutting the load on each link by half, meaning that the weak link will not break at the intended 180 pounds but it will need about 360.
I made the same mistake on putting two weak links thinking that I was adding protection to my setup and I was corrected by two instructors on separate occacions at Quest Air and at the Florida RIdge.

...double the required breaking load.

This is probably not the optimum situation and can and does lead to the weak link on the Dragonfly tow bridle breaking before that one will break.

Do ya...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/20 22:25:38 UTC

Something to bear in mind... the tug's weaklink is three strand.

For clarity... A normal single loop weaklink would be considered two. A tandem double loop is considered four.

In the tandem setup, the "weaklink" in the system is at the tug end, not the glider.

...think?

Having the rope is not a big problem if you have altitude...

NOTHING'S a big problem if you have altitude - asshole.

...but can be an issue down low.

NO SHIT. Unfortunately 99 percent of the crap you slapped together to call a towing system - from the tow mast breakaway through the bridles, "releases", hook knives, and Quest Links are issues down low.

Although it is easy to get rid of with the chest barrel release...

With a little altitude and no towline tension or need to hold the nose down or fight a lockout... Yeah.

...perhaps we will reduce the strength of the chest weak link to one loop.

Right.

- Start out with a dangerously understrength one-size-fits-all weak link on the solo to attempt to conform with a bullshit theory and number Donnell Hewett pulled out of his ass in 1980.

- Assume that doubling it will double its strength and assume that that's appropriate for a glider with two people on it.

- Put the exact same weak link on the front end bridle.

- Design a tow mast breakaway to blow at the same strength as the glider and tug weak links so there's an equal probability of a failure at all three points.

- Dumb down the front end weak link to protect the tow mast breakaway.

- Leave the glider weak link the same strength so as to raise the probability of the front end weak link blowing from thirty-three to one hundred percent and guarantee that the glider will get the rope.

- Then dumb down the secondary weak link so you can automatically dump the bridle and towline in case of a wrap (as long as the piece of shit secondary bridle doesn't wrap) and risk a bottom end separation, wrap, and tumble.

Here's a thought, Paul. For the next twenty years try doing everything possible to fuck up aerotowing and see what happens.

It's always a balancing act.

Goddam right it is. You've got that entire lunatic system balanced on the brink of disaster with every single tow.

It's no fun having an inadvertent low weak link break when you are low so we don't want this weak link too weak.

- What's the most extreme possible no fun scenario an "inadvertent" weak link break when you're low could precipitate?

- What the fuck is an "inadvertent" low weak link break? How many assholes do you know who are deliberately breaking weak links down low?

- And lemme tell ya sumpin', Paul... With that 130 pound Greenspot crap you're putting everyone up on - or trying to...

-- ALL weak link breaks are "inadvertent", unnecessary, undesired, and potentially or actually dangerous - as you bloody well know.

-- You're OBVIOUSLY talking about low weak link breaks with the glider under control. 'Cause if there were a LEGITIMATE reason for weak link break - read lockout - dumping the towline you just pulled off the tug would almost certainly be the LEAST of your worries.

-- There is NO EXCUSE for flying with a weak link that blows when a glider is under - or struggling for - control. That can - and eventually WILL - kill somebody (again).

- Do you think Bobby Bailey is enough of a fucking genius to design a tow mast to HOLD to 325 pounds rather than SNAP at 200? Then we could start towing without having to:
-- violate the crap out FAA safety regulations
-- find even more things we can dumb down between the Dragonfly and glider
-- read fourteen page articles in the magazine on how to triple the strength of 130 pound Greenspot
-- spend all the good flying days standing in relight lines and replacing downtubes
-- listen to Jack and Davis Show idiots making hundreds of posts about:
--- what:
---- great lockout protectors Quest Links make
---- nonevents Quest Link pops are
--- how our aerotow instructors need to be trained to handle Quest Link pops properly

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29003
Aerotowing in the UK

Dan Hamblin (MorphFX) - 2013/05/09 21:40:49 UTC
England

Hi Folks,

It's been a while since I've been on the 'hanggliding.org', so I thought I'd say a hello as the flying season is now upon us in the UK (well, it's raining and blowing a gale outside at the moment!).

Hope you didn't miss out on the discussion of the inexplicable freak aerotow accident at Quest on 2013/02/02.

Here's what I was doing last week...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFQozyXEwI0


Safe flying everyone!

Thanks. But with no explanation of what went wrong on that one, everyone's just rolling dice.

-
http://www.morphfx.co.uk/hang-gliding/

Michael Farren - 2013/05/10 07:57:55 UTC
South Bunbury

Thanks for the video. Interesting that the 50/50 bridle...

Pilot and glider. Three point.

...has been specified in the UK as mandatory for aerotow of lower aspect ratio wings.

The Moyes Xtralites have aspect ratios of 7.6 and 7.7 for the 137 and 147 respectively. So I guess they're perfectly safe to tow one point.

Does the regulation also specify the use of static (non-stretch) rope for this type of bridle? The use of dynamic (stretchy) rope in the bridle could see the pilot struck in the face by the release from a weak link / line break.

- But a stretchy bridle provides shock absorption so the bridle doesn't act somewhat like an impact wrench on the weak link.

- And I'm guessing that in response to the Zack Marzec inexplicable freak accident BHPA established sane minimum weak link requirements which exceeded their old insane maximums.

Dan Hamblin - 2013/05/10 09:44:22 UTC

There's nothing detailing the 'stretchiness' (but don't quote me on that as I'm not sure) of the bridle, but there is specific mention of the length of the tow ropes. One of the main issues for the amendments was matching the tow speed of the tug (microlight) to that of the hang glider. Previously, this was near impossible due to the unreliability of statistics published by hang gliding manufacturers. As part of the review, the BHPA formulated a table that determines the 'approved' method of aerotowing a hang gliding based upon the aspect ratio of that wing, and my Sting 3, required me to modify my towing method.

So how did they determine the point at which it becomes safe to throw away the top third of the speed range for which the glider was certified? What kind of dart did they use?

In the UK, only certain microlights are approved for towing hang gliders. The super slow microlights used in the US (SSDRs?), which look ideal for towing hang gliders...

Yeah.

Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC

Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years and I can say that the steel ring, polished or not, has a greater tendency to wrap than the small aluminum carabiners. There are other obvious reasons a heavy steel ring is not a great idea swinging around at the end of a 250 foot line.

On the chest line we normally run a double weak link on one end just as we do with the primary. This is probably not the optimum situation and can and does lead to the weak link on the Dragonfly tow bridle breaking before that one will break. Having the rope is not a big problem if you have altitude but can be an issue down low. Although it is easy to get rid of with the chest barrel release, perhaps we will reduce the strength of the chest weak link to one loop. It's always a balancing act. It's no fun having an inadvertent low weak link break when you are low so we don't want this weak link too weak.

They LOOK ideal for towing hang gliders. That's what you get with tugs designed by fucking geniuses.

...are not approved in the UK.

For the wrong reasons.

So for the moment, we have to get towed by super fast microlights!

Which would AT LEAST give you the opportunity to tow with a safe weak link configuration - if the fuckin' idiot BHPA weren't so obsessed with mandating weak links which very clearly will provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns, and the like for that form of towing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFQozyXEwI0
Hang Gliding - Aerotowing With a 50:50 Bridle

Dan Hamblin - 2013/05/03

Recent amendments to aerotowing procedures in the UK require gliders of certain aspect ratios to be towed with a 50:50 bridle and trolley launched only.

At what point does it become safe to foot launch an aerotowed glider?

The AirBorne Sting 3 168, with an aspect ratio of 5.7, falls into this category. This is my first aerotow in this configuration. Thanks to Stewart and Cathy of Flylight for taking the time out to set up the glider and get me up in the air again!

Are Stewart an Cathy cool with BHPA weak link regulations? I don't believe I heard them participating in any of the Zack Marzec postmortem discussions.

Information re the new aerotow amendments (as per Nicos' comment below):

http://www.morphfx.co.uk/hang-gliding...

NB: Please note, this is NOT the official information - please check with the BHPA for the latest information.

vapula01 - 2013/05/05

50:50 bridle is alien language to me being a hill launcher, but? great video. You must have felt like an airline pilot approaching a runway like that! Especially with planes giving way to you.

Dan Hamblin - 2013/05/06

Yes, there was something strangely satisfying about seeing aircraft giving way like that! I was very tempted to land on the runway!

Guess you've never bellied a landing in before.

The 50:50 bridle essentially splits the towing force between the pilot and the glider (one end? of the threader attaches to the keel and the other end, just under my arm pits!).

Have you even used a 67:33 center of mass bridle? Those are autocorrecting and make the glider lockout proof - especially when used in conjunction with a weak link of 1 G or less.

Nicos Halvatzis - 2013/05/09

Great explanation Dan !!!

My glider aspect ratio is 7.2, am I in the same category?

What's your motivation? Compliance with regulations written by total idiots or being able to survive getting blasted by a strong thermal?

I like your videos because they are always very helpful...

See if there's anything you can take away from this one:

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus

Thanks.

Dan Hamblin - 2013/05/09

Hi Nicos,

You'll be fine on the Discus.

Sure. There's just no freakin' way you won't be fine on an aerotow. The only people who ever get killed on aerotow are total bozos who think they can fix a bad thing and don't want to start over and/or use stronglinks.

I've paraphrased the? basic information over on my website (YouTube won't let me put a link in here - so I'll add it to the description above).

For the Discus there's no specific restrictions other than being towed by an approved tug.

And, of course, the ones Mother Nature feels like imposing. But let's not worry too much about those.

A Discus may well be my next wing! See you soon!

What weak link are you gonna use for it and why?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

I've seen too many people walk the "strong link" road only to find out the reality of things.
Fortunately, they've been unscathed, but there have been a lot of soiled underpants in the process.

Can you direct us to the accounts of these incidents which you posted to educate us muppets to dissuade us from reducing the inconvenience we experience...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 05:15:25 UTC

Nonsense.
It's completely about convenience.
People like to argue about it and in their arguments, they dig up rationalizations of it not being about convenience, but sorry... it very much is about convenience.

...resulting from...

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).

...blowing six weak links in a row in light morning conditions or the frustration we feel...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

...as a consequence of missing out on some of the best flying opportunities of our lives and risking...

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

...the fire that the "other side" is made of?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

But three days ago you said they were all unscathed.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

So everything you've ever said about the dangers of stronglinks and the "standard aerotow weak link" having been derived...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

AT isn't new. This stuff's been worked on and worked over for years and thousands upon thousands of tows.

...by working on and over stuff for years and thousands upon thousands of tows and...

I love all these egomaniacs that jump up and decide that they're going to "fix" things, as if no one else has ever thought of this stuff?

...people with keen intellects like you and fucking geniuses like Bobby Bailey thinking of stuff has been - and continues to be - a lie.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC

Every now and then someone comes along with the "new" idea of a stronger weaklink. Eventually, they scare themselves with it and wind up back with one that has a very proven track record.

And - over nineteen months later - you're STILL lying.

And now...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Davis Straub - 2012/08/13 18:08:42 UTC

Used to do 130 lbs. Now do 200 lbs.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

Up at Morningside, they're using that new orange weaklink.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 10:37:47 UTC

I'm not sure who you're arguing with Zack, but it's sure not me... cuz man... you've got some pretty big hangups mate.

Ra ra ra... burn the greenspot!!!!
Get real man.
You think that's all we use?
Hell, just in this thread, you seem to have missed the 200lb orange links.
Ah, but your strawman argument lives and breaths by your black and white hyperbole.
When you come back to reality, let me know.
Till then, I'm sick of it.

...LOTSA people and flights are going up with stronglinks 54 percent up from the standard aerotow weak link.

So when are we gonna start hearing about people:
- finding out the reality of things
- soiling their underpants
- being burned by the fire that the "other side" is made of
- beginning to hear what you've told them all along when you're visiting them in the hospital
- scare themselves with it and wind up back with one that has a very proven track record

Morningside is well into the start of its second season of stronglink tows and - since it's a highly reputable operation which would IMMEDIATELY put out an advisory about the danger of stronglink towing following an incident - it's pretty fuckin' obvious that there have been no problems whatsoever.

And given the number of stronglink tows they must've pulled to date I would guess that the odds of any one of us muppets in the course of an aerotowing career ending up in the morgue, the hospital, or a post traumatic stress disorder clinic are pretty negligible.

Compare/Contrast with Quest's record with Rooney Links in the 2013 season to date.