That Tad is permitted to read stuff in other forums and post stuff on his forum.
This is the ONLY site that matters.
Yeah. And let me be the first to say how great it was that when Davis locked down threads and threatened to ban people when it appeared that they were making solid arguments against forcing everyone up on Davis Links and Davis Bent Pin Barrel Releases you Jack Show guys jumped right in, picked up the ball, and brought things to the logical conclusions.
Steve Seibel - 2013/03/12 17:25:46 UTC
Just out of curousity, if I vote to "bury" what happens, it goes to the bottom of the list? Just for me on my account, or for everyone? If the latter, how many votes are needed to make it bury?
Why don't you just read the "Mission Statement and Site rules for HangGliding.org"?
Tired of seeing an inflammatory topic on the front page? Click on the "BURY this topic" link at the top of the page. Once a topic gets enough votes, it will be moved to "The Basement" forum where it will no longer show up on the front page.
See? Once a topic gets ENOUGH "votes"!
Now, AEROEXPERIMENTS, lemme ask ya a few questions...
- Where's the "RETAIN this topic" button?
- If there's one vote to bury, what percentage of the tally is in favor of knocking the topic to The Basement?
- There's an election to determine the presidency. 299,999,999 eligible voters hate the incumbent's guts, one asshole wants him reelected. The incumbent rules that no name other than his appear on the ballot. Who wins?
- How many people get to see who voted and how and who are these people?
- Why do you think it is that the Jack Show participants are unable to view the bury count?
Not a reaction to this thread, just curious.
Too bad you don't have quite as much curiosity regarding the death of Zack Marzec - or much else that matters that we can do anything to improve in this sport.
And isn't it interesting that one never seems to hear anyone else giving instructors and schools bad raps in this sport. They always all seem to be equally wonderful.
After asking on this forum for AT advice, I was sent a link to that kitestring...
Kite Strings.
...website, where I then proceeded to read lots of Tad's posts. Not knowing who he was, or what he's about, I took him seriously.
But then I found out from everyone what a fucking asshole he was and I decided to throw my lot in with the industry establishment and its many loyal and adoring zombies - typified by all of the wonderful people like Ryan Voight, Craig Hassan, and Paul Hurless here on The Jack Show.
At that point it was no longer important to make any effort to:
- understand the theory, science, math underlying hang glider towing
- look at the historical record of towing equipment shortcomings and resulting fatalities and the analysis and recommendations of people like Doug Hildreth
- be concerned with the incompetence and corruption which inevitably evolves over the course of three decades of operations conducted in the total absence of enforcement and accountability
- consider the engineering standards of the equipment allowed into circulation
- note that the USHGA aerotowing SOPs always seem to get a bit shorter following aerotowing fatalities
Now it was just a matter of finding some place warm to fly and an instructor with a winning personality who would thoroughly groom me in safety and alleviate my few concerns.
I was looking at the time into receiving my AT rating from Sonora, which I did by the way, and it was awesome...
Yeah, it always is. Flying hang gliders is a BLAST.
...and I read Tad's comments on instructor Mark Knight (saying he was an idiot and partly responsible for a fatality that happened at Sonora a while back...
When somebody gets killed in the course of a clusterfuck that astronomically moronic everybody in the local community and up the hierarchy to USHGA is AT LEAST partially responsible.
I think you all know the one I mean).
What? Is there an injunction against mentioning his name?
SO Tad Eareckson or whatever the fuck his name is...
Yes - Tad Eareckson or whatever the fuck his name is. Good to meet you Tim May, or whatever the fuck your name is. DO remember to send my love to Jack Axaopoulos, or whatever the fuck his name is, and tell him how right he was and wrong I was about the standard aerotowing weak link and its ability to put gliders into lethal stalls.
...directly made me doubt whether I should learn to aerotow with Mark Knight.
Why? You read the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden - right? So if there'd been any problems with what Mark was telling you, using, doing you'd have been been able to spot them and get things sorted out - right?
And, in any case, it would be quite foolish to have any doubt in anyone with the proper USHGA credentials teaching you anything about hang gliding. USHGA goes to GREAT LENGTHS to ensure the people it backs are nothing but the best of the best - and that the people who get killed in their programs are only the worst of the worst.
I pulled the trigger and went.
Great strategy.
I never mentioned the accident...
The WHAT?
...but Mark Knight did...
Did he refer to it as an ACCIDENT?
...he explained what he thinks happened...
How wonderful for you. He sure as hell wouldn't explain...
You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
...what happened? I mean, it's an ironclad rule of hang gliding that if you weren't actually watching the guy coming in high and downwind and flying into the fence you can't REALLY know why he broke his neck. You're just engaging in...
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC
I just buried my friend and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?
...PURE SPECULATION and a dude who's got a pet project and is pushing his "THEORIES" about coming in LOW and INTO the wind.
- So does he only share what he THINKS happened with people who pay him for lessons?
- Any chance if I skipped the lessons and just wired him fifteen bucks he'd share it with me?
- Did he make you sign a nondisclosure agreement so the only people to be privileged with his take on what happened will have to fork over something to get it?
...and he emphasized all the safety measures necessary to prevent this sort of thing from happening again.
The fuckin' morons:
- took the tow ring off and used a loop of fishing line - the focal point of their safe towing system - on the end of the towline instead
- ran a piece of shit bridle with fat spliced ends through the loop of fishing line
- used a "release" on only one end of the bridle 'cause, hell, whoever heard of one end of a bridle failing to clear whatever it was running through
IT SHOULD'VE NEVER HAPPENED IN THE FIRST PLACE, there wasn't a goddam thing to be learned, I'm having a hard time imagining an average six year old doing anything that fuckin' stupid, and all it did was add another hill to the existing Everest of evidence that Darwin had his shit totally together.
My aerotow instruction was great.
Of course it was. EVERYBODY learns EXACTLY what HIS INSTRUCTOR is able to teach him.
The course was effective...
UN DOUBTEDLY - see above. And it obviously also totally gelled with what you had learned from reading the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden. 'Cause if it hadn't, you'd have told us - right?
...and I was thoroughly groomed in safety...
- With the BEST EQUIPMENT The Industry had to offer - stuff with UNBELIEVABLY long track records.
- Whoa, dude! If only people like Bill Bennett, Mike Del Signore, Jamie Alexander, Frank Spears, Rob Richardson, Mike Haas, Robin Strid, Holly Korzilius, Arlan Birkett, Jeremiah Thompson, James Simpson, Steve Elliot, Roy Messing, and Zack Marzec had been groomed in safety as thoroughly as you were.
Hey guys, I am a H2 going on an aerotowing course in a few weeks.
Let's make "few weeks" three. It's now 2013/03/12 and you've completed your aerotow training without actually having gone down to Arizona for another week. And you - still a Hang Two - have been THOROUGHLY GROOMED IN SAFETY! That must be one helluva program!
- So how long do you think it would take a Hang Three who already has an AT rating to be thoroughly groomed in safety and what would it cost?
- I'm assuming that to be thoroughly groomed in safety you underwent tandem Cone of Safety training and demonstrated the ability to properly react to a weak link / tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude, in smooth air. So now you know enough to:
-- not get out of the Cone of Safety and thus make yourself vulnerable to problems
-- pull in in response to a Tilletti Link break
-- never break a Tilletti Link unless you're at high altitude in smooth air with a tandem pilot
I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now.
...try to release Industry Standard releases under a lot of load and instead pitch out abruptly to use your Tilletti Link as an instant hands free release?
...which alleviated my initial concerns.
How could you POSSIBLY have had any concerns after reading the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden? I read that sucker cover to cover and I didn't see ANY POSSIBLE WAY anybody with:
- a properly applied weak link
- an Industry Standard release (rather than any of that homemade crap like Tad makes at home)
- a tug driver always prepared to make a good decision in the interest of his safety
- a hook knife - just in case the properly applied weak link, Industry Standard release, and tug driver are all a bit slow to do their jobs
could get so much as...
Bill Bryden - 2000/02
Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending. By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a twenty-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver. I cleared the buildings, but came very close to the ground at the bottom of the wingover. I leveled out and landed.
Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany.
...a skinned knee playing this game.
My advice:
Oh good! Now that you're a Hang Two WITH an AT rating flying a 2001 Aeros Target 18 AND having had thorough grooming in safety you're ready to start spewing out advice to help others achieve the level of mastery you have already attained. Kinda makes ya wonder why anyone would really need to drive to Arizona.
...fly with Mark Knight if you want to get your AT...
...and a really excellent bent pin backup release...
...for an excellent rate, with an excellent instructor that is together conservative, safety-minded, experienced, and focused.
Wow! I think I'd go for a deal that good even if I had no interest whatsoever in flying hang gliders. And I'm sure Bryan Bowker...
...would heartily agree with you (if he were still flying hang gliders anyway).
OK Tim. So now that you're thoroughly groomed in aerotowing safety maybe you could set us all straight on what went wrong with Zack Marzec's flight at Quest on the afternoon of 2013/02/02.
No, wait. I forgot that an aerotow pilot thoroughly groomed in safety never SPECULATES on the cause of a snuffing if he wasn't there to see it himself, or, hell...
I would be more than happy to answer any questions pertaining to what I saw and experienced, but I prefer not to engage in speculation at this point.
...even/especially if he was.
So this was just a freak accident that nobody's ever gonna be able to really understand and there's virtually zero chance that it will ever have any bearing on any situation in which you're likely to find yourself.
Well... It sure is a good thing you went with the dickheads who've dismissed Tad Eareckson (or whatever the fuck his name is) as a total wack job and gone with someone who thoroughly groomed you in safety and otherwise told you what you wanted to hear.
'Cause Tad Eareckson (or whatever the fuck his name is) is would've done pretty much the opposite of what an excellent instructor who is together conservative, safety-minded, experienced, and focused did. He'd have:
- set you up with with homemade equipment with virtually nothing in the way of a track record
- put you on a dangerously inappropriately applied weak link about three times as strong as what most people prefer
- dumped about a dozen layers on top of your initial concerns about aerotowing in particular and hang gliding in general
- told you that no matter how thoroughly you were groomed in safety, well you were equipped, and high your skill level was the next launch in thermal conditions could be fatal
- made sure that you understood just how bad an idea it was to trust anyone in hang gliding - including Wills Wing, Tad Eareckson (or whatever the fuck his name is), and Tim May (or whatever the fuck his name is) - but that Tim May (or whatever the fuck his name is) had to always be his best bet
But, hell, you don't need to listen to no senile old pussy like Tad Eareckson (or whatever the fuck his name is) who doesn't even fly anymore. You've been thoroughly groomed in safety, had all of your initial concerns alleviated, and undoubtedly perfected the technique of swinging your body way outside the control frame so it stays up there while you're reaching out with one hand and releasing.
So rock on, dude. Barring any freak accidents you'll be fine.
Go to his site and take it up with him personally.
Orion Price - 2013/03/12 17:58:26 UTC
He banned me.
And the more I see of your posts that happier I feel about that call.
Brad Barkley - 2013/03/12 21:09:06 UTC
I sometimes go to kitestrings and read Tad's rantings because it's interesting in its way, and I mean interesting in the way the Unabomber's Manifesto is interesting... to see how a mind like that works.
Gee Brad, I'd think it would be real interesting for you to see how ANY mind works.
Tom Emery - 2013/03/12 21:57:06 UTC
San Diego
Sonora Wings, located south of Phoenix, Arizona was where I bought my Wills Wing Ultra Sport. I found Mark to be an honest, intelligent, concerned individual.
- There are TONS of honest, intelligent, concerned individuals running around loose who are not qualified to teach hang gliding and have no business doing so.
- If you don't know the difference between a weak link and a release you have no business teaching towing.
- If you use a weak link that blows at much under 450 pounds towline for ANY SOLO GLIDER you don't know the difference between a weak link and a release.
- You can count the number of people in hang gliding who know the difference between a weak link and a release without getting into double digits - and Mark isn't contributing to the tally.
- Here's a guy Mark "qualified" to tow ending his short hang gliding career because Mark has no fucking clue what a weak link is:
- If Mark's so fucking honest, intelligent, and concerned then where the hell is he fessing up, apologizing, making any effort to make anything up to him, and/or engaging in a dialog to try to prevent Zack Marzec from getting killed for THE SAME REASON sixteen days shy of a year later?
I am choosy about who gets to influence my control over my life. I would have no reservations learning aero tow from him.
- I'm a bit confused here, Tom. Maybe you can explain to me you know Mark's a solid aerotow instructor if you don't know anything about aerotowing.
- And you obviously DON'T know anything about aero - or any other kind of - towing because you're worried about being choosy about who gets to INFLUENCE *YOUR* control over your life and not getting that the guy on the other end of the string can have the power to save or end your life - regardless of how well you think you've got this Mother Nature thing licked.
"Una Bomber". Funny thing, that is what went through my mind when I went over to "Kite Strings" and read some posts.
Donnell tore hang gliding off the track of mainstream aviation and those other assholes have all gone to great lengths - with great success - to keep it there and keep moving it backwards.
I've done more to get it back on track and have developed more towing technology to move it forward than anyone else you're gonna be able to name. So if you're looking for unabomber analogies you've got things really backwards.
Never met the guy.
So? I never met:
- Doug Hildreth - but that doesn't stop me from having a lot of respect for the guy and the things he was attempting to accomplish.
- Dr. Tracy S. Tillman - but that doesn't stop me from knowing what a total piece of shit he is.
No disrespect intended, but there seem to be a fair amount of bats circling inside that belfry.
Yeah. There SEEM to be. But you're not SURE.
Wanna do hang gliding, me, yourself big favors? Make sure - one way or another.
Instead of just making generalized disparaging insinuations about me and my work actually READ it and try to punch some holes in it. If you find any you can join the forces of the scores of people trying to discredit me as a wack job and silence me, if you don't you may pick up something which keeps you from getting an arm getting broken in four places or tumbled to your death. Either way you're gonna learn something useful and be able to pass it on.
John Borton - 2013/03/12 22:57:08 UTC
Holy crap -- never heard of the site till now (sort of familiar with Tad).
Tad and BobbyK toe to toe. ROFLAO.
We're not toe to toe. I've got my foot on his throat and it's staying there.
Personally, I'm not sure I could admit to posting there, let alone posting enough to get banned, but to each his own.
Nobody with a respect for rational discourse is ever gonna get banned from here.
Tad really has no testicles. He says he had one surgically removed. However we all know they took both out.
It's really amazing the stuff...
Jerry Forburger - 1990/10
High line tensions reduce the pilot's ability to control the glider and we all know that the killer "lockout" is caused by high towline tension.
..."WE" all know, isn't it OP?
Quote Tad about our this thread here on SHGA:
"tell Rob McKenzie he can go fuck himself"
There's been a USHGA regulation on the books for a bit under 32 years which is THE ONLY EFFECTIVE PROCEDURE for guarding against unhooked launches - to verify one's connection JUST PRIOR to EVERY LAUNCH - and Rob REFUSES to:
- adhere to it
- adhere to its implementation in his student training program
- engage in any dialogue about it
He - along with Joe and the bozos he uses for instructors - have created an extremely dangerous culture and environment in Southern California...
I attempted to launch unhooked from the Towers today. Within a couple of steps the base bar was at my chest and I had that "Oh s&%t!" feeling. My weight below the base bar pulled the glider back down and I crashed into the bushes fifty to sixty feet below launch.
I've spent a few hours trying to pinpoint the exact breakdown or distraction which allowed to me to walk up to launch unhooked (which I typically don't do) and have concluded that all it takes is the slightest deviation from a routine to put one in that position.
I usually check again on launch, but also failed to do so. I was very lucky to come away from this incident with a few scrapes and bruises and no obvious damage to my glider. I honestly thought that I had my launch regiment dialed in and that I would never do this.
...and, yes, he can go fuck himself - along with Joe and the bozos he uses for instructors.
Surely that is a quotation of a man with no balls. Imagine living most of your life with no testicles.
Can't. But next time I run into Christie Huddle I'll run it by her.
Mr: "I'm a genius...
Compared to someone who relies solely on his testicles for all of his aviation decision making? Yes.
...no one listens to me...
Dude...
- You've started a thread titled "[TIL] About Tad Eareckson" on your club site.
- It's currently got 29 posts and 843 hits.
- Think about what you're saying.
- And try thinking using something other than your testicles.
...the world will burn"...
Try listening to the news once a year or so. The world IS burning.
...decides to write the FAA a letter about how unsafe we are:
No, you have a MAGNIFICENT safety record! Put a thousand hang gliding participants in a high school auditorium once a year and...
Mike Meier - 1998/09
Why Can't We Get A Handle On This Safety Thing?
My guess is that the fatality rate hasn't changed much, and almost certainly hasn't improved in the last ten years. I'd guess it's about one per thousand per year, which is what I guessed it was ten years ago.
...shoot one of them in the head. How could we POSSIBLY improve upon a record like that?
Imagine you work for the FAA in DC and you get an 80 something page letter divided into 12 sections.
Yeah. Just IMAGINE a document covering the needless deaths of ten US aerotowing participants resulting from violations of sane aviation standards and practices. That's OVER EIGHT PAGES per human life!
And the FAA has MUCH more important stuff to do! If you don't have those useless fucking assholes going berserk over a kid transmitting ATC instructions from the JFK tower...
...where are ya gonna find some useless fucking assholes who will?
It refers to other documents he's written of similar length.
OH MY GOD!!! A document referring to other documents! What is this world coming to!
Ramblings of a mad man.
He's mad, I tell you! MAD!! MAD!!! MAD!!!! MAAAD!!!!!
It's not so much what he's written anything damning.
Sorry, I didn't quite follow that "sentence".
Last edited by OP on 2013/03/13 07:16; edited 1 time in total
Try giving it another shot.
It's more they have to receive letters from weirdos whom used to fly, but still associate with our sport.
And what they should REALLY be doing is not receiving any letters from useless Hang Two shits who still fly and make all of their decisions on what their testicles are telling them.
Why does the world contain Raffertys and Tad Earecksons?
Yeah. Starts crowding it out for your Davis Straubs, Tracy Tillmans, Jim Rooneys, Bob Kuczewskis, Sam Kellners, and Orion Prices. Real bitch, ain't it?
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
GOOD? It's EXCELLENT!!! Ignore the USHGA regulation requiring a hook-in check JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH, check your bar clearance in the setup or staging area, move to launch, check the wind, assume you're hooked in, run off the ramp.
It's good for sharpening that edge we loose when not flying for awhile... or when we get to comfortable.
Yeah Busto... There's nothing for sharpening that edge we loose when not flying for awhile... or when we get to comfortable... like loosing the glider after realizing to seconds to late that we unhooked from it after doing our hang check and loosing our grip on the basetubes.
SPECIAL THANKS
Paul Voight - Fly High Hang Gliding
Sylmar Hang Gliding Association
Joe Greblo - Windsports Soaring Center
The Crestline Soaring Society
Rob McKenzie - High Adventure
Go fuck yourselves:
- Paul Voight - Fly High Hang Gliding
- Sylmar Hang Gliding Association
- Joe Greblo - Windsports Soaring Center
- The Crestline Soaring Society
- Rob McKenzie - High Adventure
Orion Price - 2013/03/13 06:40:59 UTC
Busto get real,
Imagine walking around with a flat sack. Talking all castrato. A eunuch who wanted to be put out to stud, instead writes weird letters to the FAA. It's no way to be.
You're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Being an Orion Price with a sack stretched with bulging testicles to its limit is the ONLY way to be.
Mike Blankenhorn - 2013/03/13 16:55:55 UTC
Pure poetry!!!
Yeah Mike, two things you'll never find hang gliding culture short of - testicles and...
SPREAD YOUR WINGS MY CHILD
FEAR NOT, THIS STEP YOU WILL TAKE
SOAR ABOVE THY HUMAN REALM
ON THE PATH, THAT I SHALL MAKE;
JOURNEY TO THY HEIGHTS, ON GENTLE WINDS
DRIFTING INTO THIS, ENDLESS SPACE
RISING ON GOLDEN RAYS
FEELING MY WARM EMBRACE;
YOU HAVE TOUCHED
UPON MY DOMAIN,
FEELING THE PEACE
WHICH WILL FOREVER REMAIN;
FOR WHEN YOU RETURN,
REMEMBER ME
I HAVE HELD YOU IN MY PALM,
AND WILL FOR ETERNITY.
Anna Joe Manning
...poets. They go together so well and I'm so looking forward to the next big balled inspirational soul taking the next step to soaring above the human realm.
What gives? So terrified of sunshine... http://www.kitestrings.org/post3959.html#p3959
...that you went even further than Davis, Houston, Peter, committed cyber suicide, and proved me right about everything I've said and am saying?
That's OK. Whenever shit happens in this sport people tend to spill the facts before the spin doctors are able to get things in gear, they tend to leak out through some crack or another, and the sunshine sites tend to get a lot more hits than the ones:
- hiding under rocks
- requiring approved memberships and secret passwords for viewing
- nonexistent
Sylmar came back up on at around 2013/03/21 22:00 UTC if I recall correctly. Not a word on why it was down or even an acknowledgment that it was. Weird. Oh well...
The answer to the whole issue could be the sourcing of towing equipment.
The answer to the whole issue is, unfortunately, that rank and file hang glider pilots are gonna hafta take things into their own hands if they ever wanna go up with anything better than the known lethal crap that flight parks, schools, dealerships make available.
And y'all bloody well know it's all lethal junk 'cause if it weren't it wouldn't have been fodder for never changing, ending, resolved discussions for decades on end.
Wills Wing offers ACTUAL hang gliders, paragliders, hang gliding harnesses, paragliding harnesses, parachutes, drag chutes, helmets, wheels, fins, and airspeed indicators.
So ask yourself why the fuck they only offer drawings and links to the cheap lethal crap Steve Wendt uses for his idiot scooter towing program.
And ask those fuckin' wastes of space why they are ONLY so bold as to advise using an APPROPRIATE weak link - which, given their scooter tow video, must be taken to mean a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot on the end of a two or one point bridle and varies in direct load strength from 100 to 260 pounds depending on which of their dealers you're talking to and what his political agenda du jour is.
Experimental aviation is the most dangerous.
Hang gliding has - for all intents and purposes - NEVER had any contribution made to it / advanced through "experimental aviation" - and you can't name a single individual who was snuffed out of this sport as a consequence of it.
Advancements are made by people who understand theory, logic, math, physics, engineering and load test their designs and work out bugs ON THE GROUND.
And the people who get snuffed are the people who ignore and often have contempt for theory, logic, math, physics, engineering, history and do stupid things and take stupid, unnecessary, known risks in the air. And name a snuffee - excluding any clueless student victim of a shit instructor - who doesn't resemble that remark.
Rohan Holtkamp did an analysis of the accident, in particular the bridle and weaklink, which never broke. The weaklink was caught on the release mechanism, a standard spinnaker release found on bridle systems used at Lookout Mountain, Moyes, Wallaby Ranch, and Quest Air. The release clamp has an arm that is thicker at the release point and this held onto the weaklink which consisted of multiple loops of thick line.
This type of release mechanism has been banned (at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay.
So I guess the answer to your question is YES!
The release assembly, based on a standard spinnaker shackle found on the assemblies used at Lockout Mountain, Moyes, Wallaby, Quest, Florida Ridge, Ridgely, Manquin, Cloud 9, you name it has a gate that's thicker at the end and snagged the focal point of the safe towing system (no, not the hook knife, the weak link)...
As punishment it was banned for a short while from the 2005 Worlds at Hay, it learned its lesson, word got around to the spinnaker shackle releases not at the 2005 Worlds at Hay, so this is no longer an issue.
Granted, this issue that killed Robin is manageable - but:
- it was predictable and there was no reason to have it in a system that's gonna see hundreds of thousands of opportunities to kill someone other than the negligence and laziness of the slobs who market it
- there are a whole bunch of other deficiencies in this piece of junk which can and have killed people
And did you notice that while Zack Marzec was just killed in an inexplicable freak aerotow accident:
- flying a Moyes Xtralite glider
- with Bailey releases on his shoulders
- using a Bailey standard aerotow weak link to clearly provide protection from high angles of attack
- behind a Bailey-Moyes Dragonfly
- at a flight park where Bobby Bailey works as a Bailey-Moyes Dragonfly tug driver
that amongst the hundreds of posts in several topics in the two main international hang gliding forums NOT ONE was from Bobby Bailey, Bill Moyes, or any representative of Moyes Delta Gliders?
Ditto for Wills Wing - which gets about two thirds of its glider flights up behind Bailey-Moyes tugs on Bailey...
Given that we accept tradeoffs in performance, handling, weight, portability, expense... Our gliders, harnesses, wheels, skids, helmets, parachutes, drag chutes are pretty much all reasonably safe. A competent and responsible pilot can expect to get through a hang gliding career unscathed if he doesn't do anything stupid - like, primarily, whipstalling his landings to stop the glider on his feet.
But pretty much ALL the towing equipment - particularly aerotowing equipment such as that you reference in the Wills Wing and Moyes links - is cheap, shoddy, stupid, dangerous junk which CAN and WILL convert you to a passenger on a totally out of control aircraft and kill you in a heartbeat.
And if you're interested in doing any better than that for yourself...
Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC
I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).
...you're gonna hafta
- get involved in a discussion with somebody who knows what the hell he's talking about until you understand the issues as well or, hopefully, better than the person who knows what the hell he's talking about
- learn to never trust anybody but yourself (and ESPECIALLY not the people at Wills Wing (and their shit dealerships)
- get the hell out of the mainstream to get your equipment or fabricate your own equipment
And if you're interested in doing any of that Kite Strings is, unfortunately to date, about your only good option as a starting point.
Enough of what, Davis? All of your bent standard aerotow weak link shitheads again getting torn to shreds and revealed to be the liars, frauds, morons, and serial killers we've always known them to be?
Okay, folks, this forum us beginning to turn into a cesspool.
Your crappy forum always has been and always will be a cesspool - just like anything else you control and most things you're allowed to touch.
Stop it now...
Define "it". Demolishing you scumbags with grade school arithmetic and videos of whipstalling Davis/Rooney Link victims and pin benders trying to pry Davis Mini Barrels open?
I confess to previously having a bit of an Oz Report habit, but the forced login thing has turned me off permanently, and I am in fact grateful. Frankly, the site had pretty much been reduced to a few dedicated sycophants in any case.
I've seen many times the destructive consequences of "control freaks". I would just look at it as the perfect opportunity to grow membership here, Bob.
(How's that perfect opportunity to grow membership there been going, Bob?)
On what charge? Not being one of your few dedicated sycophants?
Davis Straub - 2011/02/07 19:21:29 UTC
Okay, enough. On to new threads.
--LOCKED--
...something of a pattern here.
Keep it up, Davis. And...
Davis Straub - 2013/03/08 03:16:54 UTC
Just cause we were breaking them apparently a little too easily at Zapata, which is actually hard to understand since the conditions are always pretty mild there, but the last one broke right off launch. I just haven't changed it.
...DO get that nasty 200 pounder swapped out for something that's got a really substantial track record. I really hate to see assholes like you acting as test pilots.
In a startling announcement a few days ago, Jane's All the World's Aircraft has named an August 1901 flight by Connecticut aviation pioneer Gustave Whitehead as the first successful powered flight in history, beating the Wright Brothers by more than two years. Jane's, which calls itself the world's foremost authority on aviation history, with great authority, has traditionally backed the Wrights as first in flight. Now they say the evidence for Whitehead's flight is strong enough for the publication to reverse course and recognize it as the first successful powered flight.
Jane's Editor Paul Jackson describes what happened in Bridgeport, Connecticut, on August 14, 1901.
"It was in the summer of 1901 that Whitehead flew his airplane, which he called the Condor. In the early hours of 14 August 1901, the Condor propelled itself along the darkened streets of Bridgeport, Connecticut, with Whitehead, his staff and an invited guest in attendance. In the still air of dawn, the Condor's wings were unfolded and it took off from open land at Fairfield, 15 miles from the city, and performed two demonstration sorties. The second was estimated as having covered one and a half miles at a height of fifty feet, during which slight turns in both directions were demonstrated." The length of flight and altitude reached make the Wright's first powered foray pale in comparison.
The Wright Bros were the first to fly. No they weren't.
Pluto is a planet. No, it's not.
The brontosaurus was the largest dinosaur. There was no such thing as a brontosaurus.
Dennis Pagen - 1993/04
Performance Flying
The decade of the eighties witnessed the maturation of hang gliding. Safer and better performing craft evolved, a renewed interest in fixed wings was expressed, paragliding appeared, pilots got older and towing became safer. Much of the improvement in towing safety was the result of the work of Donnell Hewett, a quiet, unassuming man but obviously a great thinker.
Donnell Hewett was almost totally full of shit, couldn't think his way out of a wet paper bag, and is probably the single most successful serial killer in the history of aviation.
Proving once again that everything you ever learned in school was wrong.
Especially if you slept through eight of your twelve years of grade school and never listened to anything anyone was trying to teach or questioned anything anyone was feeding you.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/27 23:55:02 UTC
There's a saying these days that's rather applicable here...
"Pics, or it didn't happen".
- Right. Nothing happened prior to 1826. Which makes one wonder a bit why they called it 1826 instead of 0001.
AT isn't new. This stuff's been worked on and worked over for years and thousands upon thousands of tows. I love all these egomaniacs that jump up and decide that they're going to "fix" things, as if no one else has ever thought of this stuff?
...of you professional AT motherfuckers working out the optimal one-size-fits-all standard aerotow weak link through your exhaustive trial and error processes?
The Wrights have the title because they documented (filmed) it.
The Wright Brothers have the title because they demanded that the Smithsonian reject all prior claims and evidence on condition of the donation of their Flyer - you stupid ignorant little shit.
Till someone shows up with video of them flying earlier, I doubt there's going to be any change.
Regardless of whether or not anyone shows up with anything there won't be any change to what occurred - unless/until you focus your Keen Intellect on building some bent pin time machine.
And, since that's not really going to happen... well... non issue here me thinks.
Um, yeah. Right.
Have fun trying to convince the *world* that they're wrong...
No Tony, don't ever try to do anything like that. Always go with Rooney's strategy of getting behind whatever perception's most popular and digging your heels in against anything and everything that has any actual merit.
...esp with a few still pictures of what could just as easily be a glider.
It IS a glider, ASSHOLE. Try reading all twenty-three words of his post - even if that DOES really tax your internationally famous Keen Intellect.
See, you're arguing with well documented flying.
The Wrights knew their shit... documentation and demonstration were everything.
No one else met that bar.
As romantic as it is to *want* someone else to have done it, they didn't.
Did someone else fly? Who knows?
Can someone else prove that they did? NOPE.
And all the hope in the world isn't going to change that.
Keep tilting at those windmills though.
Keep talking, asshole. There's gotta be SOME point at which hang gliding society is gonna start calling for your head - with or without Davis's protection.
Arp - 2013/03/28 01:24:00 UTC
An even earlier 1894 contender: http://flyingmachines.ru/Site2/Crafts/Craft28773.htm
nine years before the Wrights.
Of course all the claims need some qualification so a definition of manned flight has to be agreed first.
Arp - 2013/03/28 01:31:55 UTC
Jim,
Yes of course the Pilcher film is of a glider.
You just getting around to noticing that little gaff?
Do you not consider it to be in flight?
Not unless there's a Dragonfly in front of it so's it can have a proper Pilot In Command.
As I say a clear definition of what the claim is about has to be agreed first. Pilcher did have a powered triplane ready for flight by 1899 but was killed in a glider crash before he could test it. In 2003 a replica of the triplane was built and flew successfully for 1min 26secs showing it to be in good control with combination weight shift and wing warping.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/28 09:33:54 UTC
I see some of the confusion here then...
What? Confusion that you didn't deliberately generate? Where's it coming from this time? Pagen? Davis? Trisa?
The "claim" wasn't "manned flight", although perhaps it was maybe referred to it as such?
Otto Lilienthal had that box ticked long before the Wrights were even born.
Right. Otto was doing loops prior to 1867/04/16 - loops you coached him through.
The claim was heavier than air, controlled, powered flight.
I likely need to be even more technical than that, but you get the point I hope... go dig around if you're still not with me...
If he were with you I'd be calling for his head too.
...it's well documented.
You had to ascend, under your own power (as opposed to ridge lift)...
...with a catapult assisted launch...
...in a heavier than air machine (aka, no balloons) and fly around where you wanted to go, not just where the wind takes you (like a balloon).
They flew as far as they COULD go. If they'd been able to fly where they WANTED to go they'd have landed at Paris.
So, gliders and balloons didn't count.
You had to "fly".
Yeah, I've noticed that you're a real big fan of gasoline powered flight - and the contempt you have for the muppets who fly gliders.
That's what the Wrights did and they documented doing so. In fact they went around demonstrating it.
And that is why they have the title.
Jane's just said they DON'T - motherfucker. And they know what they're talking about a few trillion time better than some useless little shithead like you will ever hope to.
Arp - 2013/03/28 11:06:02 UTC
Jim,
The first flights of the Wrights in 1903 were hardly sustained and barely in control as each landing was a crash. The aeroplane was only capable of flight in winds over 20 mph. The 2003 replica commemorative flight, even with 100 years of know-how, was not able to replicate flight in front of the world press as the wind was insufficient.
The Wrights did not have a practical aircraft until 1905 and it wasn't until 1908 when they brought it to Europe that anyone took their claims seriously. Even in the USA the Smithsonian did not recognise the Wright's claim so in disgust Orville sent the first machine to London where it remained until the Smithsonian changed its mind.
So opinions do change and there are many claims but the Wrights did not develop their craft in a vacuum.
The way Bobby did.
They used the information passed to them by Chanute from other pioneers. They used the vital clue on L/D measurement given to them by George Spratt to develop their aerofoils. Wing warping, aileron control and other aerodynamic control surfaces had all been developed before the Wrights. They then went on to sue Curtiss for infringement of their Patent because he used ailerons in his aircraft. They spent more time on litigation than they did in developing their aircraft. What a waste of talent!
Which is why when France understood the theory they had developed they took it, ran with it, and started kicking our asses. Just like what's happening now with hang glider aerotowing.
The story is far more complex than a 'who was first'. All of the pioneers should be given due credit not just one party that seeks the lime light.
The Wrights were very much alive when Lilienthal was conducting his flights and it was probably his death that provided the incentive for them to enter the 'race' showing their competitive nature.
I'm sure Tad will happily write a 20 page dissertation on everything I've said here. Have fun. I don't read posts from him. If anyone else cares to discuss any of this, I'm happy to do so.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/08 02:29:51 UTC
Those that believe this can go right on believing it.
Have fun with that.
I couldn't care less.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC
You've got all your BS theories set in your head and you're just spouting them.
Have fun trying to convince people.
I'm just bored and I find stirring up your little hornet's nest amusing for some reason.
I am simply responding to the theme of this thread and the questions it raises on aviation history. Your defence of the Wright's position does not make it correct just because it is a generally held belief.
Welcome to Rooney World.
History requires a far less blinkered approach.
Not the way he and his dickhead buddies operate.
Even windmills are aerodynamic devices that predate most of the pioneers...
...and parasites...
...of flight.
Davis Straub - 2013/03/28 13:59:37 UTC
The only reason I published this story is because apparently Jane's has changed their view on certain issues.
Yeah, flipfloppers. Douchebags who alter their positions...
You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.
I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.
I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.
...under the weight of evidence, data, logic, arithmetic, historical record...
Of course, the Wrights and many others were not the first to fly. But is that really an issue?
Of course not. If it were an actual issue you'd have locked it down by now.
Arp - 2013/03/28 14:58:25 UTC
Davis,
It is not an issue for me, I celebrate all of the pioneers for their efforts. However some people do like labels and place heroes usually in some nationalistic claim of firstness.
The Wrights influence was muted by their secrecy and commercial aspirations, in the USA, and willingness to sue any competition.
That sorta thing WOULD go a long way towards explaining why virtually all barrel releases that have been in circulation for the past couple of decades have been based around bent parachute pins.
This left the Europeans to catch up and overtake to the point that there was no American aircraft ready for the conflict in the first world war.
The hopes of Lilienthal that flight would prevent war were dashed when it became the main vehicle to wage it.
Too bad that the evolution of hang gliders was such that it was never practical for them to participate in combat.
Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.
Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.
So, you're quite right in your thinking in your example. The person you have to convince is me (or whoever your tuggie is).
A lot of the right people would've been fragged within the first half hour or so.
